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Votes:
Savant (2/5): Wylted, Austin
Mharman (2/5): Savant, Owen
Austin (1/5): Whiteflame
For future reference, Owen, make sure to put your votes in bold text for them to be counted.
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@whiteflame
@Mharman
@Savant
@JoeBob
@Owen_T
You have been given a court summons
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Court is now in session for Day Phase 1 of Ace Attorney Mafia. Let the trial begin!
Some information about this particular game (some of this is included specifically for the benefit of our new player):
- This is a 9-player game with 2 mafia players. It is also a 'role madness' game, meaning that every player has a role and there are no vanillas.
- Every character is from the Ace Attorney franchise. There is also a theme split, meaning that all the mafia characters share a certain commonality that is not shared by any of the town characters.
- Before the start of this game, the mafia players were given the opportunity to ask if two characters and two roles are in the game.
- Moozer unfortunately had to drop out of this game. Earth has agreed to take his place.
Standard rules apply:
- No copy-pasting your role PM, pretending to do so, or giving a version of it which is almost not changed at all.
- No editing or deleting posts.
- No conversing about the game outside of the DP threads or any approved chats.
Living players:
- Mharman
- whiteflame
- Savant
- Owen_T
- JoeBob
- AustinL0926
- WyIted
- Earth
- Lunatic
With nine living players, it takes five players to reach a majority vote.
I-I've gotta find someone to pin this on... Someone like... him! I'll make it look like HE did it!
-- Frank Sahwit, making it clear that he is the villain of the tutorial case, in case the visual of him holding the bloody murder weapon in front of the victim wasn't enough
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Hey everyone, something came up and Moozer will be unable to play in this game. Fortunately, Earth has agreed to take his place, so the game will be continuing as scheduled.
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@Barney
@Mharman
@Owen_T
If they're both okay with that, I'll consider it. It might not be a bad idea
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@Barney
Thanks Barney, it's always good to have a backup!
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what is the advantage to this method ?
Essentially, IRV is no better than plurality for third parties. It leads to two-party domination just the same. However, the top two runoff system (like the one used in France) does not. Rangevoting.org has some articles on the topic:
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That's nine! I'll assign roles and invite the mafia to the Discord. I'll start the game tomorrow.
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@3RU7AL
ballots are designed to be counted automaticallyautomatic ballot counting takes the same amount of time regardless of the type of voting you choose
Instant Runoff Voting is not precinct-countable. It has to be counted centrally to ensure the correct winner. Most other voting systems, including plurality, do not have that flaw.
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Signed up so far:
- Mharman
- whiteflame
- Savant
- Owen_T
- JoeBob
- AustinL0926
- WyIted
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@WyIted
In if you are okay with me scaling back my activity.
That's fine, as long as you are able to meet a reasonable minimum baseline for activity, I have no problem with that.
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@Owen_T
It's a common rule for the game. It prevents all the town players from just copy-pasting their role PMs into the chat and quickly discovering who the mafia are. Even if the mafia couldn't be discovered that way, it would still just be a cheap tactic and remove a lot of the fun and strategy from the game.
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So, I've sort of skimmed through this thread, but it does bring up something that irks me about the term "Ranked Choice Voting" and how people use it -- it's ambiguous. Some people use RCV as a synonym for Instant Runoff Voting (IRV), which is the most popular and well-known ordinal voting system, while some people use RCV as a way to refer to any sort of ordinal voting system.
While I do think that plurality is not a great system and virtually any alternative would solve the spoiler problem, no voting system is perfect and every popular ordinal voting system has a serious flaw imo. The Borda count is way too susceptible to strategic voting and could result in very undemocratic results if voters are largely strategic, while IRV is non-monotonic, doesn't meet the participation criterion, and is hardly any friendlier to third parties than plurality.
Personally, I think cardinal voting systems like Approval and Score voting are leages ahead of ordinal voting systems, but that's just me.
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@Lunatic
If you recruit mafia, you will not be told, however mafia will receive a hidden benefit each time a member of the scum team is recruited.
What was that hidden benefit btw?
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@Earth
@Barney
@AustinL0926
@Savant
@JoeBob
Sign up!
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@Lunatic
@whiteflame
@Mharman
@WyIted
@Moozer325
Signups!
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Alright, this will be the first mafia game I've modded on DART! Pie helped me out with the setup of this game and gave me some good advice to get the balance right. For obvious reasons, this means he will be precluded from participating in this game. I am also banning 420-1776 from playing in this game, for reasons which I also think will be obvious to anyone who played in or read Clash of Clans Mafia. I doubt he'd sign up anyway, but I still felt like putting that out there.
This will be a 9-player game with 2 mafia players. Before the game begins, the mafia will be given the chance to ask if two characters and two roles are in the game. All characters are from the Ace Attorney franchise.
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Wow, that was a wild game! Going into DP2, Whiteflame and I felt pretty good about our odds. Our plan was for me to use the Yakuza and spread delicious chaos. What we did not expect was for the town to latch on to me so tightly and then actually vote me out. WF and I both felt pretty sure we could get at least one person to VTNL, but it didn't end up working that way.
After that, Whiteflame had the idea of using the Silencer on Barney to get the town to lynch him, but then we realized that the risk of the town realizing that he had been silenced was too high, so instead the plan was for WF to pretend to have been silenced by Barney. Unfortunately, the NK failed and everything fell apart. Oh, well. GG!
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@whiteflame
@Discipulus_Didicit
I get how this works and why you would want a lynch to use it, but that actually makes it harder for me to understand why it's more beneficial to use it for a lynch this DP than it would be to use it for a lynch next DP.
I agree. It doesn't change the fact that lynching me ends the game, so I don't see how it really affects the analysis here.
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@whiteflame
The suggestion of scum having a 2X RB (I'm guessing meaning that they can target two people, and not just that they have a person with 2 RB shots)
To be clear: yes, that is what I meant.
I'm only on a brief break for now. In the meantime, I think we should vote to no lynch for obvious reasons, but also because Barney and Mharman could use their roles NP2. I seriously doubt that the scum multi-player roleblock could be used twice, especially not on consecutive nights. DD could possibly even use his role, whatever it is. The town gets info and doesn't risk throwing the whole game away. I think it's the most sensible move here.
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Anyway, my shift is about to start. I stand by my position that the best course of action is to VTNL today. I'll talk here when I am able to.
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@Barney
Scum claiming stuff last is for when they fear being counter claimed, but in your theory they’d want to maximize the camaraderie.
Arguably, yes, but there's still the fact that you didn't claim DP1 and only claimed this DP after several roles had already been claimed/revealed.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Like I said, I doubt that Luna would have included a total roleblocker in this game,Why do you keep saying this?
Put simply, because Luna is a very experienced player and I think he would design a better game than that. Yes, there was a game in recent memory with such a role, but it also had balance problems.
Even if I'm wrong about that though and there is a total roleblocker in this game, I know everyone can't be telling the truth because of my PoE. I'm town, I believe Wylted is town, and everyone else claims to have been roleblocked. No one claims to have any roleblocking abilities, so someone has to be lying, unless you think that the scum team is Wylted and me.
I think the most likely scenario is that the scum had something like a 2x roleblock and used it on whoever the townies are among my PoE pool. Personally, I sus Whiteflame and Barney most, mostly for the same reasons I sussed them yesterday. There's also the fact that Barney claimed last, which is convenient for scum. DD is also a possibility, especially since he seems pretty eager to go along with the lynch against me on a MYLO day.
Actually, come to think of it, DD is the only one who hasn't claimed yet, isn't he? DD, would you mind giving us your role? Everyone else has claimed.
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Anyway, I would actually like to stay up until later, but I have a 12-hour shift tomorrow and need to get some sleep while I still can. For now I would just like to point out again that we are still at MYLO. If Wylted is correct, the town gets a leg up. If Wylted is wrong, the town most likely loses the entire game. We have precious little new information at this phase in the game, and he's still pushing for a lynch. I'm not scum-reading him; I still believe that his willingness to immediately hammer Pie town-confirms Wylted, but he's acting recklessly here. If you ask me, the only sensible move here is to No-Lynch.
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@WyIted
Here it is. I guess the logic is that if her lynch benefits town it would be a stupid claim so she tried to WIFOM people out of lynching by that logic
The plan had been for Pie to bus me the entire time. I knew I was going to die from the beginning of that DP. I didn't expect to not be lynched. I was just trying to act in-character up until the point where Pie revealed his "evidence" that proved I was scum.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yeah if she used the same claim as scum before that's a big enough red flag for me. I want to use the DP to sus out the partner if possible.
I haven't claimed or been the Restless Spirit before. The only other game I was scum in was the last mafia game, UPick, where I claimed to be the Virgin, which is a role that prevents anyone from dying during the following NP if lynched.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Even that logic assumes that having a living spirit who is still able to cast votes prevents the mafia from winning, which we don't actually know for a fact. Regardless, we are still at MYLO right now. By this point we've learned everyone's role claims, and everyone with an active ability aside from Wylted has claimed to have been roleblocked. Like I said, I doubt that Luna would have included a total roleblocker in this game, and if I'm right about that, it means that somebody has to be lying.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I assume one of the scum roles is "server maintenance", I remember that happening at the most inconvenient times when I played CoC.
There was a game on here where there was a "1x Total Roleblocker" role (it was actually the first game of mafia I played on DART). I kind of don't think Luna would include something quite that powerful in this game, though.
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@WyIted
You guys do realize that Casey essentially CCed pie who is obviously town
How? Pie and I have different roles. Pie's role allowed him to potentially cheat death, mine just allows me to be an asset to the town for a brief period after my death.
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I did not even get to select a target because I was roleblocked.
WTAF? No way four players got RB'ed last night.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Whiteflame is 1x Cop according to post #72 in this thread
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@WyIted
I'd be fine with that, but if what Whiteflame is saying is true, then the town still loses after I am lynched unless the NK gets blocked. Because If I die, then there are only three townies remaining to two scum. I can ask Luna to make sure, but I think we might still at MYLO regardless of my role.
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@WyIted
can you talk in the following dp or just vote?
No, I can't talk, I can only vote, and I can only vote twice in total.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Fair enough. I'm the Witch, who which can summon skeletons that can stick around and continue attacking even after the Witch dies. If I die, I can still cast a vote on the following DP.
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By the way, does Luna usually tell players when they've been roleblocked? Because otherwise, this is a very odd statement from Mharman:
Before I even submitted any action, I was told I was told I was roleblocked.
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@WyIted
Can you at least clearly explain why you think I am scum in this game? "It's obvious if you look at every game they've every played in" is not really much of an argument.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I got role locked, which scum confirms WF as far as I am concerned.
Hold on, now three players are claiming to have been role blocked? What the hell?
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@Mharman
Interesting. Who did you try to give an ability to during the night?
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@Mharman
I’m an easy target at this point with how badly I fucked up last DP.
Well, it wasn't just you in the end. Savant was also going hard against Pie, and DD and I also voted for him. That being said, I would like to know what your role is.
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@Mharman
Okay, two roleblocks is indeed odd. I would be curious to know what your role is, Mharman.
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@Mharman
Wylted only hammered Pie after finding out he was (or rather, claimed to be) the Super Saint, which, as I understand it, kills whoever delivers the hammering vote. Wylted is saying he must be town because there's basically no reason a mafia would have done that DP1, as it would force their scum partner to solo the entire rest of the game. I buy that argument tbh, though I still find it a bit odd that Wylted didn't neighborize anyone. I guess I kind of understand his reasoning, though it's not what I would have done.
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@WyIted
Why tho? I believe you when you say that hammering Pie basically town confirmed you, but I don't see what benefit there is to waiting to use your ability.
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@whiteflame
@WyIted
So, we ended up at MYLO after all. We also lost a really good role in Savant. This isn't great.
Whiteflame, who did you investigate during the night? Wylted, who did you neighborize?
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@ILikePie5
I want Mharman to hammer me if he’s so confident that I’m scum.
Mharman already voted for you.
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Alright, here's my thoughts on the matter. Mharman proposes that we lynch today instead of opting out, because if Pie really is scum, then we don't have to VTNL tomorrow, and even if we mislynch, the NK could potentially be stopped and we still don't have to No-Lynch. However, even if neither of those scenarios happen, and Pie is a mislynch, then either we VTNL this DP or the next DP, and Mharman and Savant agree that we have more information going into DP2 if we VTL today than if we refrain. Pie disagrees strongly and wants us to VTNL.
Here's my thing. Obviously, if he was scum, he wouldn't want to be lynched, but would he want the same thing as town? My first instinct is yes, as I myself lean towards NL today. Which leads me to ask, why do Savant and Mharman sus Pie? Well, originally it was due to him somewhat uncharacteristically suggesting a VTNL and also going after the claimed Cop. Okay, maybe a bit sus, but I don't know if that means anything. Mharman finds a supposed scum slip in Pie saying the game could possibly end tonight, which Lunatic never clearly said. Strange, but not inexplicable. This is the point, however, where Pie claims the game is being 'derailed' despite not yet having his vote on Whiteflame. Then the modkill and Pie moves to VTNL, claiming that his move is due to 420 being ousted. Maybe, but I notice that it was also right around the point that the mood was shifting in favor of voting Pie.
Maybe I'm reading too deep into this, but looking back over the pages of this DP, I'm suddenly not so sure the sus on Pie is all that unreasonable. I feel a bit conflicted. On the one hand, I don't like the idea of going into MYLO tomorrow, but on the other, we can always just VTNL if it does come to that and use whatever new information we gain to eliminate scum. There's precious little time left in this DP, and I think the advantage of lynching today just barely edges out the disadvantages.
VTL Pie
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@Savant
Alright, I'm following the conversation here. Please, I don't need to be constantly pinged. I'll post my thoughts in a bit.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
So new math is 6-2. We mislynch now and scum NK succeeds it’s instantly MYLO, vs us No Lynching today and and scum NK succeeding puts us at 5-2, where there’s at least a little more POE, and we can lynch with more information (relating to Savant and WF)
Yup, that's... what I said.
If an extension is wanted I can grant one if three or more people want it
I'm going to vote yes on the extension as well. I think the town deserves it for 420 screwing us over a bit
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Alright, then. The way I see it, there are only three reasonable options here:
- No Lynch
- Lynch Whiteflame
- Lynch Pie
The advantage to NLing is that we avoid going into MYLO tomorrow. Whiteflame is a bit sus, but I really don't like the idea of lynching a claimed Cop DP1. If we're wrong, we lose an investigative role before even getting a single result and we go into MYLO at the earliest possible opportunity. That's just too risky in my book. I'd rather No Lynch at this point, but if I were to lynch someone, I'd much rather vote for Pie. Personally, I sus Savant the most, but he claims to have a confirmable role and I don't think the town is going to suddenly rally behind voting him out. I'm going to try and quickly re-read the DP before coming to my final decision.
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