Danielle

You said if priests are required to turn people over to the authorities, people would not confess illegal sins.

I'm asking why it matters if they don't confess their sins. They are not held culpable for the illegal activity anyway.

Individualism is prioritizing the desires of the individual over a collective group, and opposing interference by society or government institutions to interfere with an individual's goals. That doesn't describe any Democrat.

Biden won the primary because many Dems, especially off the coast, are not socialist as I keep pointing out.  But they're not individualists either. If they are they wouldn't have a problem with individuals owning AR-15s, would they. 

This thread is asking whether clergy should be obligated to report information about rape like other professions are. 

If you want to make a thread about alleged thought crimes, you should do that. 

I don't think there are individualists on the left. There are socialists and social democrats, i.e. people who favor high taxes and big social programs + safety nets under a capitalist framework (the "European model"). 

Why do you think it would make me happy? 

So? Their confessions translate to zero penalties anyway, so why does it matter? 

Trump signed the stimulus  bill, and said he sent a "strong message" that makes clear to Congress the wasteful items need to be removed. To be clear, signing the bill sends a strong message that everything in the bill is now law, including the wasteful items. He sure showed them 💪

Trump says he has a problem with the spending included in the omnibus portion of the legislation... but most of this funding was included due to his own administration's requests according to Senate Republicans like Roy Blunt. For instance I'm sure Trump is fine with $500 million going to the Israeli military and wouldn't consider that "pork" whereas some progressives might disagree. 

Plus it's just not true that Republicans would support more money for Americans IF ONLY there wasn't pork spending. Some have expressed their opposition to larger direct payments saying they do not support any stimulus checks at all. They have argued that these stimulus checks are not targeted enough and will go to many Americans that are not struggling financially.  "It's a really foolish, eggheaded, left-wing, socialist idea to pass out free money to people" said Rand Paul. 

"Republicans repeatedly refused to say what amount the President wanted for direct checks. At last, the President has agreed to $2,000 -- Democrats are ready to bring this to the Floor this week by unanimous consent. Let's do it!" 

Lol boss move by Nancy. 

Trump says Americans need more than $600. Republicans say no, we can't afford it. Looks like the GOP did not become a populist party after all. Now what?

lol

She wasn't tunneling. She expressed willingness to lynch herself multiple times and made a solid case against drafter while highlighting behavior she thought was scummy from other players as well. She was focused on you and Bullish for a moment and in fact said part of the reason she wanted to vote whiteflame was because it'd help her read Bullish. Nobody responded to any of her points regarding the dynamic between Bullish and whiteflame which I know because I just went back and re-read DP1. Actually someone did ask her and she made a point about why one of them must be scum which nobody responded to. Lunatic was looking @ Bullish for other reasons. 

Anyway she said whiteflame was her biggest scum read and outlined why. When ya'll said "he just plays that was as town" she supplemented the analysis about his narrator-like behavior (which he does do as town) by highlighting inconsistencies in his game play from THIS game. You, Luna, and everyone else missed it -- but instead of saying "damn she was right" you guys came into the End Game guns blazing, probably feeling defensive and looking to blame her for ya'lls failure to recognize her valid points. That's nonsense. She literally did everything in her power to explain her reads AND gave reads on other people + voted to lynch drafterman, so that's not "tunneling."

I can call out my disagreement with Magic that any sexism is at play, but I do agree with her that some people just have egos so large it's insane. Saying she lost the game is laughable. For whatever reason people don't wanna give her props for nailing her analysis, but if any one of us had done that we would be gloating in the End Game. Heck in the last end game Lunatic was giving whiteflame props for his reads and whiteflame didn't really have good reads lol town lost badly. Yet in this game people can't give her props for crushing that analysis and instead want to BLAME HER FOR THE LOSS? *eye roll* Unreal. 

I've brought up before an idea I had for a JOAT game that was all JOATs instead of all vanillas. That way there would be the behavioral analysis necessary from an all vanilla game, but also the utility of being able to catch people in lies with their night actions which I think is fun. After giving it some thought I think it might play out better as a game with multiple JOATs instead of all JOATs, but even that I'm not sure of. I'd probably like to try it as a small live game first to see how it pans out. Thoughts? 

Yes, popcorning is only useful when there are no fake claims or only 1 fake claim given to 2+ scum which is the norm on DART. 

Counter-claiming is a huge part of mafia in closed set ups. It is almost never done on DART. I've played in the last ~6 months of games and there was not a single cc done by scum as a strategy. In fact I haven't seen a single CC at all until this game where MisterChris cc'd Water who lied as town. It is rare for mafia to utilize that here. It would be interesting if it was done more. 

It may have started out as only vanillas just like ice cream. That doesn't mean only vanilla is good. All-vanilla games are pointless. I've explained at length why I won't play them. They're boring, annoying, and primarily all guessing. I guarantee it's luck and little to no skill - I'd be willing to host like 5 small games of this and look at the statistical probability (somehow) to verify.

It's interesting you think that a pure mafia game has all vanillas and simultaneously think  the challenge of being mafia is that you have to figure out what the theme break is and find a claim. That seems contradictory. A vanilla game or closed set up game is a game based primarily on behavior. That's what I like but I do like SOME role variation for fun and detective work. For instance, it was interesting how all the night actions worked in this game and verified each other + hinted at people's roles and such. Scum would have been caught lying had ya'll claimed the roles I gave you and a watcher/tracker was on you. Everyone including Magic thought Luna was the Caroler until he said otherwise because of the results the Tracker outed with him visiting her. I think it's fun to utilize roles and night actions plus behavior to see if people are telling the truth about their claims. Like if Supa claimed Bulletproof but then was caught visiting someone, he would have been found scum. The claims itself mean nothing - that's what I argue in every game. Verifying your role also means nothing. It's a lot of little things that add up to catching scum. That's what I like - the detective work - not saying "oh yeah that character is probably in the game." That's whack as hell and indicates positively nothing about your skill or lack thereof if you just so happen to choose a good or bad fake character claim. If anything that says more about your laziness or time commitment and luck than it does how good of a Mafia player you are. 

It was a huge mistake to not lynch whiteflame on DP2 imo. You knew Magic was really given a carol (cuz she thought you gave it to her lol) so you knew that one of the people on her list was def town, i.e. you. That gave you a 50/50 shot of hitting scum blindly with the other two names even assuming her read on whiteflame was wrong.

I would have assumed Water or Chris was scum but saved that for the next DP.  Had the vote thief been killed, scum having 2 people vs. all those town power roles would have been an interesting and good game. I honestly don't think scum would have won had Magic not been Hated. That was my bad. But thank you for not yelling at me cuz I didn't yell at you after you gave scum that TAILOR ROLE ;P

You are right. whiteflame was active in the scum PM. 

You have to keep in mind though that nobody KNOWS your reads are correct - not even you! Even if people believe you're 100% town and you know you're town, that doesn't mean they necessarily have to believe your read on whiteflame. I have no idea how you were so confident in your read on him. I get that you caught some logical inconsistencies, but town makes mistakes all the time -- look at Water! lol 

I agree you CRUSHED it in this game, but you can't take it personally that people were not 100% on board. 

I 1,000% disagree with this. The next time I'm scum without a fake claim I probably won't even bother trying to look for one and che sera sera. It is so annoying that most games are primarily broken by theme analysis and character claims. Take last game for example. I don't know dick about anime so right off the bat I'm at a disadvantage. But suppose one of us scum was pressured to claim early on DP1. I could have claimed a TV anime character only for people to realize on DP2 the town is all movie characters. Therefore I could have been found scum for no other reason than I picked a wrong character right off the bat. That's not scum hunting. That was town getting lucky. It's stupid and barely even qualifies as the game of Mafia IMO, but that's how the majority of (especially early) lynches are decided. I think with a wide theme like Christmas scum probs shouldn't have been given fake claims, but really including a Hated was my big mistake. I honestly don't think you guys would have won if she wasn't Hated :P 

No I think that is very fair and constructive feedback, though she usually doesn't play anywhere near as aggressively as last game  o_o 

I understand your point, but I also think while she doesn't know his play style that could actually benefit her reads in a way because she wasn't thrown off by him behaving similarly as town in the past, and she hyperfocused on the fact that he was posting fluff. She focused on behavior from THIS game and not past "metas" which people have admitted skilled players can control and manipulate. Pie plays the same regardless of his affiliation. I also think I do a decent job playing to my town meta as scum.  So you're right that whitefame did spend a lot of time defending himself and not scum hunting (which you said made you unable to read him) but that was her whole point -- he was doing everything but scum hunting and that's why she read him the way she did.  

Magic town read Pie, so there was clearly something about whiteflame's posts in particular that made him stand out lol I dunno what beyond what she argued but apparently she felt strong enough to go that hard. I was shocked myself. I didn't like the "he left upon pressure point" (I agree scum does that but I also leave all the time as town cuz I get busy a lot) but you should give feedback if you think there is anything she can do to improve her arguments.

Ps. You did NOT "trick" me into confirming there was no tailor lol. I went out of my way to confirm that all on my own in the OP! And then I was so absolutely, positively, categorically, unequivocally certain I wanted everyone to know there was no tailor that I reiterated it when you asked  even though I said I wouldn't answer questions publicly

BUT GOODNIGHT FOR REALLLLLYYYY REAL . Sign me up for the next game! 

I thought Magic was gonna go hard for Speed actually had he lived past NP1. 

Watcher/Tracker could verify other people's roles (i.e. confirming Luna visited Magic) so they are not useless even with a Ninja who wouldn't necessarily be alive all game. They would also help find cult and such and catch people lying about the fake role claims I gave. 

I just want to say that I've played in like 4 games with Water and I've scum read him in every single game, and in every single game he was town. I've scum read Water when I was scum and knew he wasn't scum. I've even scum read Water while I was MODDING and thought... am I tripping? Did I make him scum by accident? He's scum, right? That's happened twice lol. He is one of a kind. 

Btw Luna's role (Ghoul) is what I thought the HIDER was in the other game where I misunderstood my Hider role. The Ghoul is where you can pick someone and make them  your bodyguard. Apparently VIP is another name for it. 

Oh and @that1user you targeted MisterChris np2 which I thought was weird. Why not target Magic again? The standard caroler role makes you choose a different person each night, but I did not include that caveat. You should have picked someone you most read town and likely to live, which was Magic obviously. Not the person who just cc'd a power role lol. 

ANYWAY GOODNIGHT FOR real real 

FWIW the caroler would have also found cult scum.

Regarding whiteflame's play, I see both sides. Magic was 100% correct the way she assessed his play. However it's true that whiteflame tends to play that way most times. Just because he plays that way as town (so ya'll are right) doesn't mean it isn't scummy (so she is right). 

Here was the first post she sussed him: 

SirAnonymous plays like 100x more annoyingly neutral than whiteflame, but this assessment was accurate. I think town is used to focusing more on theme like I said so they don't go after neutral comments as much as they should.  To be honest I remember whiteflame being more scum-hunty last game but in this game I wasn't paying close attention to reads. This ^ observation by Magic seems legit; the point about him not being online at 9pm though was not (I'm never really online at night when I'm not modding). 

Anyway going for realz now.  

I also cannot read Pie for shit lol 

Yes, slay me! lol 

Entire cult dies if he recruits scum. He probs would have had like 1-2 recruits at best and no way a Santa Clause claim was getting far. He was role blocked and killed NP1. I suspected one or the other but yeah. 

It seems mad OP towards maf and maybe it is but seriously if one little thing had gone different (of many) it would have been a totes different game. 

Had Magic not claimed Hated, scum would not have won. Had ya'll lynched whiteflame dp1 or 2, scum would have had a VERY tough time winning after all those power roles were outed. Speaking of which Water shouldn't have fake claimed and made the Tracker out themselves. And I'm not sure why you said publicly that you weren't the caroler which everybody thought and scum would have acted differently in the end had they considered other options. So yeah my b but I do think town was pretty powerful. Caroler was a very powerful role. 

Anyway I'm leaving before Magic et. all yells at me lol BYE 

Thanks for playing! 

Good game errbody. 

Here is day phase 3 lol I just ended it to spare everyone the pain. MisterChris signing on and giving his night action wouldn't have done anything. 

*** MAFIA WINS!!! *** 

whiteflame - You are the GRINCH. You once thought stealing gifts would stop Christmas. Now let's see how stealing votes works out. You are the VOTE THIEF. During the night phase you may steal a player's vote and cast it on another player for the following day phase. 

iLikePie - You are EBINEEZER SCROOGE. You hate Christmas so much you don't let people leave work to celebrate. During the night phase you may ROLE BLOCK a player and prevent them from carrying out any night actions.

drafterman - You are DAMIEN CLAUSE. Because you're a direct descendent of St. Nick himself, nobody thinks to pay you any mind. You also have more power than you should. During the night you can either choose to be a NINJA and bypass any Watcher or Tracker reports, or you can utilize STRONGMAN powers and bypass any protective abilities that would otherwise stop a night kill. 

Fake character claim options: Mrs. Clause, Ghost of Christmas Past/ Present/ Future, Frosty the Snowman 

Fake role claim options: Bride, Oracle, Vanilla 

=============

Town Losers...

Lunatic: You are JACK SKELLINGTON. It's true that you're the patron saint of Halloween, therefore spending most of your time with ghosts and spooky spirits. But you've grown to *love* Christmas and wish to help save it. You are the GHOUL. During the night phase you may choose another player. If you would be targeted by a killing action, that action is instead redirected to your target. You may only successfully redirect a kill once per game. You win with the town.

oromagi: You are CINDY LOU WHO. You are full of joy and have a very kind heart. You're determined to show everyone what Christmas is really all about: being a good person. You are the INNOCENT CHILD and start the game as a town aligned player, which will be revealed at the start of the game. You win with the town.

that1user: You are BOB CRATCHIT. You don't have much to give but you try to give what you can. You bring joy to the town as a Christmas CAROLER. During the game you may visit another player. That player will receive a 'carol' that contains a list of players, at least one of which is scum (you do not know how many players will be on the list). You win with the town.

MisterChris: You are YUKON CORNELIUS. In the Rudolph movie, you can be seen trekking through the snow with your handy pick axe. Everyone thinks you are prospecting through the arctic mining for silver and gold, when really it's peppermint you're looking for. A kind fellow you do not mind using your skills to help others navigate to save Christmas. You are the TRACKER and win with the town.

=============

=============

Guys... before you yell at me for making such a swingy game, I really don't think it was lol. I put a lot of thought into it and I'm confident that had like one of many things gone differently the outcome would have been a much more interesting game that went down to the wire. So many things were just so bizarre! Too many WTF moments. Thank god I wasn't playing. The only thing I would take responsibility for as a "mod mistake" is having a hated townie in the game with a vote thief. But so many things could have gone differently there (i.e. whiteflame being lynched on DP1 or 2, Supa not being shot NP1, etc.,) that I don't know how much responsibility I should take, though I'm sure you will all tell me otherwise and yeah I admit that was like the one thing I would do differently :P 

I'm sure people won't like that I also gave scum a bunch of fake claims. Supa had the option of SANTA CLAUSE or RUDOLPH (that's why Rudolph wasn't the hated townie though he would have been a better fit) and he could have fake claimed Doc, Bulletproof, Mason Recruiter, JOAT or Vanilla.

I know some people might think that's insane but I cannot reiterate how much I hate how games are broken based on themes. I love modding themed games as much as the next guy but in reality they just take away so much from the actual skill set of Mafia IMO. Also I like the dynamic of closed set ups where you know exactly which roles are included, however I also like room for leeway and fake claims and options. So giving fake claims was my way to kind of balance that. And honestly LikeMagic nailed her behavioral assessment lol that was CRAZY. She's gonna rage at yall so I'ma sign off before that happens. Hopefully she turns her fury onto you so town doesn't turn their fury onto me lol.

I really do think the game was balanced aside from the Hated. Ah well. Good job to the scum team and THANK YOU ALL FOR THE ACTIVITY. 

Bullish: You are BUDDY the ELF. You really don't have much to offer other than spreading a ton of Christmas cheer. You are VANILLA and win with the town.

Because? 

WaterPhoenix (Lunatic, drafterman, MisterChris) -- 3/6 votes 

whiteflame (Magic) -- 1/6 votes 

Day Phase 2 is up! 

Day Phase 2 is up! 

Speedrace: You are RALPHIE PARKER. Sure you're excited about Christmas, but for you it's just a means to an end. What you're really concerned about is getting your hands on an official Red Ryder carbine action two-hundred-shot range model air rifle. Then you can take out the bad guys yourself one by one, and everybody will love you if you get it right. You are the VIGILANTE and can shoot at a player during the night phase. You win with the town.

No and I'm mad that you fucked up the flow of my posts. 

No Lynch (whiteflame, Supa) -- 2/7 votes