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@3RU7AL
unless they're really bad, then it's ok to kill them".
You're being childish and that's disappointing. You are one of my fav posters. You can block an enemy without attacking or any hate involved. I can turn the other cheek if you'd like to slap my face but if you put a knife to my throat or my loved ones I'm going to intervene, without hate. I'm not ignoring what the scripture says at all, you seem to be the one twisting them into something else.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
so i am still looking for the link between, ( believing in a God ) and ( joining a religious group because of it.
Religious groups are for the purpose of souls connecting with a collective environment, seeing as how humans are so attracted to having someone to relate with and share life with. When you leave this world it's the same way, there are countless collective societies and so the soul has things to do and places to go, all that doesn't just go away when you leave the body.
But to answer the question, the link between believing in God and joining a particular faith I would assume that they find something worthwhile within that belief. And no one can deny that religions are cultural so it is entirely feasible many children follow the path of their parents, but again the point is that it's similar to a family thing where it is more about connection and fellowship than say the actual beliefs. For me it's the opposite, I have to see truth and something worth pursuing more than what my parents ever believed. I don't care what they believe on one level lol, that has never been my motivation I'm more attracted to knowledge, learning and acquiring things that actually work and produce something.
Not many people approach religion and spirituality from a Omnist point of view like myself, but when you understand why religions and spiritual paths exist in the first place it's silly to believe that only one route has all the answers. As a matter of fact I have found the opposite to be true, where one religion leaves off the other picks up, and many sources have varying degrees of knowledge and insights. Having said that there are definitely more advanced groups than others and you can see that in their teachings.
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@ludofl3x
If it only comes from other life, where did that life come from?
life is cyclical, and at the backdrop is a static conscious Reality. This Reality is eternal so it doesn't need to come from anything. In other words there never was an instance where that Reality was not present, so when we say that life within the universe comes from life, we are talking about the processes we observe in creation materializing from an eternal life. So your question is nonsensical, you have to learn what is being proposed and that is why you guys should be asking more and not telling more.
was life as we know it extant at the very moment of the big bang? If so
The Big bang is just another process of the Creator, life preceded that. The Big Bang enabled God with more tools and material to create with. Why do you think planets form so that bodies can exist on them lol? should be pretty obvious to anyone TBH.
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@3RU7AL
Please explain exactly where Jesus says, "love thine enemy, I mean, unless they're trying to hurt you in some way, then beat the Schmidt out of them..."
That is NOT what I said at all come on are you serious? why do you guys always twist crap??
What I wrote was pretty straight forward, if it didn't make sense maybe read it again.
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@Alec
The only true Christian died on the cross.
Lol so it would seem. However I have always loved the Gospels and the example of Jesus, I would apply the teachings to myself as a young kid on my own accord. I love the intimacy and passion He had about the Father, it literally changed how I interacted with life and others. I was always a pretty good kid but the Gospel really got my foot in the door spiritually speaking and expanded me in many directions as I adopted it to myself. I didn't have a pastor or church telling me what to do or how to live I got it all from Jesus and the Gospels.
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@Alec
One doesn't need a version to follow Christianity, all they need to do is read the Gospel and apply it to themselves that's it. As for the "assembly" that just constitutes other fellow believers and again, you don't need a version of church to have fellowship. Or, as my wife and I did we just got involved with the local non-denominational church just to be of servitude but it had nothing to do with having to follow a specific organization we already apply the Gospels. Other than that all are free to obtain the Gospels through no medium other than God.
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@Stephen
You come across as a very frustrated person, that could happen when you try and tango with material you can't handle.
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@3RU7AL
The New Testament's over - all message appears, on the surface to be about loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek, give away your possessions etc, yet there are clear verses in these scripture that indicate quite the opposite.
Well stated.
In line with the NT and Jesus' teaching you can love your enemy but that doesn't change the fact that the enemy still wants to kill you. So, rather than be terminated by an enemy whom you have not hated (and possibly have turned the other cheek) there must exist another resolve at some point. Basically you don't have to hate someone to protect the self and what is good.
This is why you see that dynamic in scripture, commands to love and the awareness that there is a real enemy. In all honesty the negative forces would annihilate the positive side of life without hesitation. What love does, even though it doesn't always work is set the grounds for possible change and better outcomes. But, that doesn't change the reality you still have someone who hates you and that it may come to a head.
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@sylweb
What do you mean by Ultimate Reality?
Not to speak for Mopac, but it just means Reality as it is or as it exists independent of our own personal experiences and observations of life. The spin Mopac puts on it (and in this case he would be right) is that the Reality that I just described would be what we call God. If you don't accept that God exists then it would still work only no one could ever be aware of it. But...as God exists so this reality obviously is observed.
God is not limited by space or time, so the reality God experiences is of totality....there is nowhere something exists where the Creator is not present. God is aware of what is within creation and also what is transcendent of that creation.
Just for your interest here is a good description of what we would mean by an "Ultimate Reality". This is a Hindu term but the principle is the same universally. You can say that an ultimate reality simply means totality, in comparison we experience reality through a limited perception. But the Ultimate Reality exists apart from that isolated observation.
When we talk about God, we generally mean a personal God with intentions, actions, discretion, and maybe even a name.
Well the Ultimate Reality is a conscious Reality albeit formless, it pervades all of creation much like energy and all things comes out of that first Source. Any state of reality that is conscious is also a being, since consciousness is a state of being, awareness and observation. So yes, this Reality has intentions and we see that play out in creation. The fun part is what exists beyond the physical world and physical sense perception.
God isn't just order and reality
That is some of what God is of course. But you're correct, much more to God.
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@drafterman
I am not engaging in a religious topic.
Ethan is representing the Theistic position, this is a religious forum. I'm sure he will be taking a religious stance.
Since I am not aware of this god, your proposal is demonstrably false.
You're aware now, and thanks for the opinion.
Incorrect, that is not the definition of life being used in this conversation.
But, it's the proposition I want you to consider. While you are here anyway.
Energy and god are not proposed as the same nature with the same characteristics.
Lol read that again. Energy is neither created or destroyed, energy exists at all places in the universe. God is not created or destroyed and exists in all places at all times (omnipresent). Energy exists because conscious activity exists, that is why energy is even there. They co-exist. Now before you make the claim you are not aware of that note that I'm bringing the awareness of it to your attention.
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@zedvictor4
That's too bad. Who wants to learn, gain knowledge or have wisdom about anything right?
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@Stephen
What is it they are hiding??
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@Stephen
I just don't believe it in the fawning sycophantic manner in which you do. Because thankfully, I am not religious.
Again here we go, assertions. Which is why I told you to ask!!
I have said here many times that I believe that there is an underlying story in the scriptures that the gospellers are desperately trying to hide.
What are they hiding, I remember your claim but you never said what they are hiding lol....
These gospel writers, in trying to hide so much , reveal much more than they hide. And this is why that there are hundreds of contradictions in these works. And I will keep highlighting them even if its just to watch you wave them away as not important or struggle to explain them.
What are they hiding if.... "I believe all the characters existed and I believe all the events including the so called miracles."
Are you nuts dude?? how can you believe someone is hiding something when you can't say what they are hiding?
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@drafterman
The fact that the universe was once so hot and dense that there weren't any planets, stars, or even atoms.
Now I see the problem, this unawareness thing you need to work on and like I said it wouldn't be a bad idea that you expand your data base especially if you want to engage in religious topics so you have some awareness and more strength to your position.
God is proposed as omnipresent, meaning that there is an omnipresent awareness of the nature of consciousness and God. In other words there is nowhere something exists where awareness is not present. What makes the awareness of God omnipresent is that it's not limited to time and space, to forms and bodies. It exists independent of those, so in essence God has no bodily form therefore has no need for environmental factors to sustain physical bodies of matter. So when we use the term "life" we are not talking about life on earth alone. We are talking about the life of God or awareness that transcends what we observe within creation.
Now, this is why I bring up energy and processes and how they act out in creation. I do this because so you will no longer be unaware that these things don't take place by themselves, there are processes because there is intelligence behind creation. Accepting the omnipresence of the Creator is not a big deal if you can accept energy, that it is omnipresent and is not created or destroyed. What a coincidence that both energy and God are proposed as the same nature and have the same characteristics...correlation again.
And, just like energy consciousness can exists within form and outside it.
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@ludofl3x
The only difference I can see is one is older than the other. If I proposed the spells in Harry Potter were real, if you only believed in them the right way, how is that different than the proposition in the bible exactly?
Harry Potter is posited as fiction, whereas creation and a Creator is posited as reality, non-fiction. Simple stuff. The fact you believe or think Theism is absurd is irrelevant to it being proposed as non-fiction. You only equate the two because you have assumed creation is absurd, that is idiotic. Sorry.
Am I not allowed to believe Planetos exists, and the true gods are the old gods of the North? Or the many faced god? Would you ridicule me for that?
You may believe whatever you correlate reality with, even now you mock me with a statement you know you don't believe in. I never did that to you, would you like me to mock your worldview? I'm pretty witty when I feel like making someone look stupid...
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@drafterman
That is the kind of life we are talking about.
Not from a Theistic point of view, which I believe the OPer is coming from. We are talking about the life that transcends evolution and physical forms and why those processes happen. That is the proposition we would want you to consider of course. If I'm wrong note that I'm bringing a new conversation. Not that I want to derail I'm just responding to your comments and offering further consideration.
I'm not aware that anything exists beyond the physical.
Close your eyes, stop thinking and focus on the observer. Then know that it is proposed that you exist beyond your physical form, now you are no longer unaware. Being unaware would mean you have not been presented with either an experience or some other source of information. I would suggest looking into other sources to expand your data base.
The topic of this thread is atheistic propositions, not theistic ones.
Are you serious? I know but the author I'm sure is taking a Theistic stance silly, in other words one that opposes yours ("Consider the following four miracles which must be accepted by the atheist in spite of scientific evidence to the contrary")
That is why I'm sharing an opposing view for one he never responded back to you. If you don't want a new conversation with a different person that's cool.
You are confusing things. The big bang has nothing to do with life on earth. Regardless, there is evidence.
I'm bringing to your attention two separate things here, the start of the Big bang and evolution. Both are processes of a Creator and that is my position. You asserted life began on earth and I'm saying you have no basis for that claim, and have no basis for the claim non-life existed prior to the Big bang.
Silent on the matter of the state of the universe at and before the big bang. Not about life.
That would include life Drafterman. If they are silent on what preceded the Big bang that includes consciousness/life.
Through series of genetic mutations and selective sexual pressures over billions of years.
That would be conjecture and assumption not fact. You base your conclusions off the premise or assumption no life precedes forms on planet earth even though you admit what preceded the Big bang they are silent on, see what I mean? you base your conclusion off of conjecture.
I don't know what you are saying or asking here.
I'm trying to get you to look at the processes and why they occurred. Correlating processes with intelligence and a mind is the starting point.
Right, we know we have bodies without souls
Nice assumption, we know we do have souls without bodies. See how that works lol?
but I've never seen a soul without a body.
Perhaps, but you are aware that a soul could exist independent of physical bodies right? otherwise again, you need to expand your source of knowledge so that you aren't so unaware of things.
No evidence of spirituality or NDEs.
They are included as evidence, meaning they are evidence. Why is it atheists have no idea that testimonials ARE evidence lol??
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@ludofl3x
Does Lord of the Rings also shed light on another possible reality? Song of Ice and Fire? Harry Potter? The Lion, The WItch, and the Wardrobe? Beowulf? The Greek or Roman Pantheistic Legends?My answer is no. They're stories. What we draw from them is a reflection on the only demonstrable reality, ours, not "maybe Hogwarts is real."
If you don't know the difference between that which is proposed as fantasy and or fiction and that which is proposed as a real proposition you are lost in a religion forum, what can I say? this is how you belittle others of different beliefs and don't consider other possible worldviews. Would anyone suggest you are closed-minded? that comparing Hogwarts with the proposition of a Creator is comparable? that's childish and downright bias. Too bad really, makes one wonder why you come here to discuss fairy tales and fictional stories...
Or what happens?
You remain ignorant, unaware of what reality contains. Can you? of course why would I care other than I believe you have more options? if you don't care then go play somewhere where they are proposing fantasy, this is the forum to discuss reality not comics.
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@ludofl3x
I'm saying the bible is far from the only source for moral lessons
I would say fine, I have no issue with that at all. But does the Bible shed light on another possible reality? If it does then no one should be reading it just to find contradictions and absurdities like Steve.
The Bible shouldn't even be treated as a moral source necessarily, it should be treated as a source that expresses another way of observing the world and the self. Because if atheism is false then we need to become aware of what the alternative is. And I'm not claiming that the Bible is the only alternative rather another way of learning and observing.
described as the inerrant word of the perfectest perfecto and demand it's taken literally,
Well then perhaps wait until one of those people comes along rather than directing it at all Theists or even all Christians? because I never see anything that distinguishes his assumptions from all believers.
A lot of times us Theists get blamed for things we never do or accept.
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@drafterman
The conditions of the early universe were not amenable to the existence of life.
Not for the life we observe on this planet no, but consciousness and soul (awareness) exist independent of physical form. That IS the proposition coming from Theism that consciousness is not dependent upon physical bodies or a brain so you can dismiss that but it's still there. If you're content with accepting that no life existed prior to the Big bang with zero evidence then you are accepting basically conjecture. The question becomes why? there was never a claim "there was no life" you said "Current scientific theory is silent on the matter"??
The general scientific consensus is that life arose on Earth around 3.5 billion years ago.
Probably accurate dealing with evolution...but again, you can assert only life happens within forms on planet earth but that is a claim based on zero evidence. You're talking about the evolution of bodies, I'm talking about how evolution occurs in the first place. Ask yourself how inanimate matter produces intelligent processes and sentient beings?
At some point (before 3.5 billion years ago) it didn't exist. After that point (after 3.5 billion years ago) it did.
The processes of our universe existed before the development of this planet and forms, and processes are associated with minds and intelligence. Correlation is the key here, instead of looking at effects articulate and look for the cause.. it's an assertion to claim conscious life did not exist prior to life on this planet. You should be asking yourself why processes occur, why energy acks as intelligence in what it produces? why should you be asking that? because you don't want to be focusing on only effects and not causes. If you accept an inferior proposition that doesn't really know how could you ever expand with another proposition that may be true? consciousness is fully articulated in spirituality whereas admittedly we are limited by our scientific understanding.
It is not an assumption, it is a rational conclusion from the available facts.
It may be a rational conclusion based upon how you interpret the evidence (not facts) if you think it's rational to accept something that is silent on the matter. Sure.
That is the definition of faith provided by the OP that I am going off of. If you have an issue with this definition, take it up with n8nrgmi.
That's cool, I was just bringing up a different concept between you and I.
No evidence to support this conclusion.
Evidence is that which indicates a proposition true or valid. Based on how I interpret the evidence that is untrue, there are certainly indicators. Correlation again here. Now, had you said it is not a fact or it's just my interpretation then we could agree. I admit it's my interpretation, but interpretation of the EVIDENCE.
A nice myth, but just that: a myth.
Thanks for the opinion. But is that how you approach all propositions including your own?
It is not obvious to me and my own experience that consciousness is apart from the material world.
It's not obvious to you, you are first a conscious being and not a series of impulses or neural firing? I would say fine, but perhaps consider another way of understanding.
I am not aware of the existence of any soul.
Well you are that, you are just making the assumption that your brain creates your conscious being and nobody really knows why because consciousness is yet an open question in the scientific community. So the only way you could have arrived at that conclusion is from atheism. Because science is silent on that matter too (consciousness/aka soul), sure it can find activity within the brain but there's activity within the brain because there is a conscious alive being that interfaces with the brain. When the soul leaves the body the brain returns to dead matter.
Now, if you were to consider spirituality along with NDE's and spiritual encounters (God forbid) you no longer have to be unaware of the soul. The soul and consciousness have been proposed through spirituality for a long long time sir. No reason to be unaware of anything unless you choose to be.
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@Stephen
Why should I ask you about your beliefs?
Because that way I don't have to deal with your strawmen. If I wanted to address the topic I would have, I was here replying to Ethan.
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@Stephen
What I mean is leave out the nonsense when you respond to me, need I point out all the unnecessary assumptions in your posts directed to me? you didn't just ask for information worthwhile did you? all you have to do is go back and read them. Then, I have to respond to your inquiries plus your bare assertions. That is frustrating.
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@ludofl3x
There's more than one believer here who can demonstrate just how contorted they can be in order to believe it's all actually true.
Of course of course, because it's all a big absurdity right Ludo? that we have to contort ourselves? how dare anyone conclude there is a Creator, when atheism is obviously the answer. How dumb of any Theist. And how dumb any religious forum exist for such a stupid proposition.
Actually, anyone arguing for or against the perfection or imperfection of the Bible are silly, and then missing the things that matter in the mean time. It's a vicious cycle when the simplicity and understanding of what scripture is about resides in neither the perfection or imperfection of that particular book or any spiritual book. There are things that make sense and there are also imperfections and things that may not make much sense because it was put together over a long period of time by imperfect humans.
The information given within the Bible is like any other source of information you acquire from using what is usable and setting aside what is inaccurate or not useful. The Bible need not be perfect in order to gather information that works or that is useful, any other approach is nonsensical.
Having said that many times what Stephen believes are contradictions I have found unconvincing and I'm not even considered a fundamentalist Christian or Jew. In this particular topic I would say if Jesus did not quote that passage verbatim then I would suggest it was his interpretation of what He read in the OT prophecies but even then who cares? how does that suggest what he said was any less true lol if it were true? If the scripture claims that the "living water" can be forsaken in the OT it stands to reason that it also can be obtained and "belly" indicating the "innerman". To me yet again, this imperfection or error simply is irrelevant because it disturbs nothing being taught. Jesus obviously got living water from the OT and equated his mission to that analogy.
Jer 2:13
"For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters"
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@drafterman
We don't know where the Big Bang "came from" or that it "came from" anything. Current scientific theory is silent on the matter.
If you are silent on what came before the Big bang or how it happened how can you say for a fact that there was ever "non-life"? I'm not aware that anyone claimed at one point there wasn't life. So where is there evidence that life or the universe came from non-life? you would have to make the assumption that there was no life but why? not only do you make the assumption but you apply it to your own world view which means you indirectly or directly limit what you can potentially experience.
You said faith is belief without evidence. If the evidence says that there, at one point, wasn't life, then there was, then that is evidence life came from non-life. Since there is evidence, it isn't belief without evidence and therefore isn't faith.
To make matters more complicated faith isn't belief without evidence that is a contradiction (misconception) to what faith means and its purpose. If it is defined that way somewhere that is weak definition of faith, faith is trust and confidence in something and both trust and confidence are based on evidence and experience. And yes, that is all faith really is but with a spiritual twist.
The Big bang of course came from a conscious Reality which is why it occurred in the first place. This enabled the Creator more "tools" to create with obviously. Coming from a spiritual viewpoint there was/is first an omnipresent conscious activity/reality, which generates and also co-exists with energy. The amount of energy generated from an omnipresent Reality is unimaginable and it was from this Source that energy was condensed and released to create what we label the Big bang. This was the starting point at which God began the processes we observe in our universe but there was never a point in existence where there was non-life, and certainly not non-life creating life and sentient beings.
also you say it's just my opinion that consciousness is apart from the material world. it's possible i'm wrong. but you have to admit that that's what it looks like, don't you?That's not what it looks like to me..
What he probably means is to appeal to commonsense and what is obvious to your own experience as a conscious being.
We are, essentially, advanced biological robots.
Sure, the physical bodies can be articulated that way but not the conscious soul, it exists independent of physical forms. The material forms are how we interface with creation.
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@Stephen
So that will be a ' no I cannot do that because there is nothing in the New Testament that a Christian benefits from that an atheist might also benefit from without having to go down on his knees, prey to the sky, or an terrible image of a man suffering a violent death on a cross or take the bible at face value without question'.I see , just as I thought. One doesn't have to be religious to see that there might be fk plenty of benefits ie " useful and worthwhile" in the scriptures, but it is odd that you are reluctant to point them out, why is that ?
Lol we're on a roll this morning, let's try that again....
I'll address your inquiries when you leave out the assertions, til then I have no interest in dealing with an endless array of strawmen. How we avoid that, is by approaching me without preconceived ideas and assumptions.
Thanks.
P.S you may actually want to ask me about my beliefs before you assume what they are.
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@zedvictor4
Only thing is though, what does the foetal soul do when it gets to heaven?Will it actually be aware that it is a foetal soul?Or will it mature like cheese as EtrnlVw suggests.
Lol, well at least you know how to ask questions finally, only you don't know how to ask the right person. Half way there Zed you can do it...
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@DynamicSquid
Real art takes skill, and possibly weeks of painting.
True, but not all decent art projects have to take weeks. Depends upon the picture or idea the artist has.
Change my mind.
I don't personally like it but just to sway you a bit for fun...What if you were to consider that "modern" art is a form of using color, tones and sometimes shapes to express oneself rather than using realistic images or scenes? Color can be a beautiful thing and maybe some realism can limit that....
Are modern artists using that method to mask the fact they can't paint realistic paintings? I don't know...but, I would say art is a lot like music, many styles and forms make things interesting for all tastes. Why should someone who can't paint faces or realism be limited by that? when there are still so many ways to put paint on a canvas?
I'm an artist and I prefer realistic type paintings and artwork and so I have always liked to draw and paint in that style. My Dad however cannot draw or paint like that but also likes to express himself with art, so he does caricatures and cartoon style pictures. Both of us are good to the average person but two different approaches and skills. I say if you don't like it ignore it, leave it for the fans to judge but I wouldn't label it a scam TBH that's a bit extreme. If it's a matter of skill level there still should be no reason modern art should not be an option for some artists.
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And then one wonders why they are in a RELIGIOUS/SPIRITUAL forum^^
Ask spiritual questions get spiritual answers. Get spiritual answers act like a big immature dummy. Repeat.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
When is a soul fully grown ?
I wish you would ask me this stuff and not bonehead!
The soul doesn't "grow" it matures. Matures through experiences so the question is nonsensical even though an interesting question. The soul can mature forever basically and even if there's a point at which you plateau and can no longer develop you still can have experiences, the potential is endless for a soul that has developed enough to be given the freedom of a creator. Even then creation is cyclic, the very birth through physical forms in new worlds gives the soul chances to experience what it's like to start over, or start anew.
If you equate the soul to the experience of physical forms you're still a bit confused.
Here's an idea of what's going on simplistically.
-God's full state of conscious awareness=omnipresent consciousness without any form or limit=eternal=alone=totality
-God desires to create soul as a creative expression=soul and Creator are the same property or nature=eternal
-God covers soul or layers soul (with the individual mind, emotion) as to make it distinct from Itself=soul is now "separate" from Creator or an entity in contrast to God
-God sends new seed/soul into duality/creation where it inhabits forms/bodies=experiences life=grows=dies ect ect
-Soul learns and develops itself through perceptions and experiences=matures=progresses within creation
-Soul does this for as long as needed or as it desires to or as long as it gets trapped=souls journey is long=many experiences/lives
-Soul matures enough to be responsible for much greater experiences=live in greater, more elevated parts of creation
-Soul has become a creative dreamer=creator in limitless worlds
-Soul becomes again one with God=same origin
-Repeat, repeat, repeat
But let me remind you that it will take eons just to get half way through lol :/
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Energy and consciousness co-exist, if you were unable to detect consciousness you would think energy exists alone and what is responsible for creating forms within our universe and that happens to be true only it's not alone at all. Awareness just is, it is everywhere in all places at all times and this is what we call the omnipresence of the Creator. As a result of that first Reality energy is also present in all places and at all times. In other words there is nowhere something exists where awareness is not present. Out of this reality....God uses and manipulates energy to create forms, and this plays out in processes. So ask yourself, why is energy isolating itself to create forms for sentient beings?? just look at the very nature of energy and what it does in creation and it should be a no-brainer to anyone really paying attention.
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@Paul
there is a great deal we do not know about the brain and the nature of person hood. However, I am not willing to ascribe some kind of magical unseen force to it just yet.
It's not magical or unseen, it's just a matter of comprehending the nature of consciousness that's it, you already have a direct idea and experience of that just as what you are. No need to look any further you ARE a conscious being, it's not your brain activity.
How could a sequence of brain activity/neural firing and a nervous system ever put together a full coherent orchestrated song? fall in love or DECIDE what it likes or dislikes, or remember something?? that's why circuit panels don't talk to you or play you songs lol jk... "Personhood" resides already in the soul, or conscious awareness it doesn't need a "brain" to create that and actually much like energy consciousness doesn't need to be created and can't be destroyed and it animates matter not the other way around. Conscious awareness was already a property of the Creator, then comes energy or as a byproduct of conscious activity.
Again, the brain and body are just a machine or vehicle the soul uses to experience through. Personhood is a solid conscious entity, materialists don't understand that immaterial matter doesn't create sentient beings. However, the soul does need an active medium and not a "dead" one. I'm under the persuasion that even the very cells that make up the physical body have a degree of awareness. The brain needs to also be an active conduit, able to conduct or regulate the conscious experience....when you see activity within the brain it's because there is an energetic "power source" present that generates that, once the soul leaves the brain turns once again into dead matter.
Come on guys time to think outside what you've been fed by an ideology that's basically just guessing. And that's fine because we need to start somewhere in our quest for answers just don't put all your money on conjecture when there is already a proper understanding. Spirituality has had the answers for a long, long time and the reason is so that human souls have access to truth.
Mostly because if we were satisfied by that kind of an answer we would still be living in medieval times.
But, you are looking for something that's already been established, medieval or not. Materialists will always have an incomplete understanding of consciousness because they are approaching it backwards.
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@Stephen
of taking the New Testament at face value without question.
I'll address your inquiries when you leave out the assertions, til then I have no interest in dealing with an endless array of strawmen. How we avoid that, is by approaching me without preconceived ideas and assumptions. Thanks.
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@ethang5
but people move away from you out of disgust, not fear.
Lmbo, perfectly stated!
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@ethang5
Like he is deliberately setting them up for me to knock them out of the park unbothered.It just feels too easy to beat him, and his outrage seems like fake and comical overacting to me
Yes and fun to watch :)
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@ethang5
More importantly, who the heck reads a book to not only ignore anything useful and worthwhile but to make up supposed contradictions lol?? now that is something else. When I realized he's just reading the book only to find mistakes his topics became meaningless. I would be more impressed if people were to overlook imperfection to find the underlying objective of the accounts, then deal with them or ask questions. The shallowness of religious forum atheists is something to scratch the noggin about.
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@Paul
Can you show me information on this understanding of consciousness? I'd like to read about it.
Or you could ask me, I've never heard a question I was unable to address....the main thing I would propose is the comparison between energy and consciousness. If you can get with that it's not only simple to understand it pulls all of the pieces together for you to have a real coherent idea of what creation is and how it works, the nature of the soul and God ect ect..
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@Paul
There's two ways to understand it, you can articulate it through what we know about quantum mechanics or you can articulate it through religion. If I were to direct you to a link for a religious source I would go with a source that specializes in the nature of consciousness and the teacher I follow is a remarkable fella, but you have to be prepared for that. As to not solicit in this thread please hit me up in a PM and I can send you links. There is also a non-religious teacher I follow that you may like, but the source reflects more than just spirituality and the nature of consciousness so you would have to be interested in the topics of the videos but anyways just send me a PM if you don't mind.
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@PressF4Respect
So what you are saying is that there is a hierarchy of sorts
Good catch, just not in the manner you may be picturing it. The soul is covered in layers when it leaves the Godhead to confine it to corresponding worlds....for example the soul has an outer layer in the physical world known as the physical body, when the soul leaves the physical body it is present in a spirit body often times labeled a "ghost".
This is also known as the subtle body. However even when we get to the spirit body the soul still exists independent of even that form because the soul left God without any body at all, it was more a conscious seed that was then covered. There is no agreed upon number of layers the soul has in religious squares but it comes down to at least five, I believe in Buddhism there are seven not sure about that one though. The five that I'm aware of are of course the physical (senses), astral (emotion), causal (memory), mental (mind) and etheric (Intuition). When you get above duality where these layers have relevance you come to the pure conscious realities where the soul exists with no real form. This is the full state of consciousness the Creator exists at this level and where you originated.
that there is your physical ("chemical") body, and then there is the spiritual ("soul") body above your physical body
Well not "above" rather they are all connected in layers (so more like "within" per say), kind of like looking through masks in a way. They would be your current observation point at whatever layer of creation you would be in. The reason for this of course is that each form is tailored for that corresponding universe, as the one that precedes it is undetected.
but the soul doesn't have direct control over the body. Correct?
Yes of course it does or can I should say, but not when the soul has no idea it's not the mind or emotions....both the mind and emotions are strong enough to control an individual. The soul has to get outside the patterns of the mind and the perceptions of emotions if its to learn new things and experience different aspects of life. You see this with criminals, suicide and addictions and all kinds of distortions when the mind and emotions rule/control an individual. Spirituality is the method that can help in this area when one needs to transcend them, or as you see many souls fall prey to both the mind and emotions in this world.
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@TheRealNihilist
I am not going to believe in things without evidence.
Wow you didn't pay attention even in your own thread. That is sad.
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@TheRealNihilist
Another thing, I wish someone was able to replicate this and report these findings to a qualified individual but alas, none have the courage to have science be on there side when it comes to the supernatural.
Is this supposed to be a joke? science and spirituality can work harmoniously together they do not contradict one another. Religion needs to stay out of the way of science and science needs to stay out of the way of religion. They both study two different natures of reality, one the natural and the other the supernatural although we only use those terms to distinguish one perception from the other. I embrace science wholeheartedly because it gives insight to how the Creator produces what we see currently in our universe whereas spirituality gives us insight on the soul, the nature of the soul and God. In a perfect world we need both not just one or the other.
Science is a neutral study, it makes no claims about the Creator because that is not its field of expertise because it cannot reach that reality, this is where we hand the ball over to spirituality just like if we were to hand the ball over to science to demonstrate how the physical world operates. The question becomes do you have the courage to LET SPIRITUALITY be on your side when it comes to that nature of experience like you trust science to tell you about the physical universe.
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@Stronn
For irrefutable evidence of personhood outside the brain, you would need to show me someone who retains personhood with no brain at all.
Don't wish to derail anything but this is a silly argument lol, sorry not being rude but the proposition that the soul exists independent of the physical body including the brain would be a soul without a human body and brain of course. So at least through the physical sense perception you can't be shown a soul (personhood) without a physical form or a live being without a brain.
In order that the soul interact with this world it must have a physical body including a brain that confines and regulates its experience to this environment. So you cannot observe a form in this world that confines a soul (intelligent being) without a brain and under normal circumstances the soul escapes the detection of the physical eye much like the full spectrum of color is unseen the same way.
The spirit body (which also confines a soul) exists at a much finer vibration and frequency but the brain is needed in terms of the physical experience as a conduit or conductor like electricity needs to be contained within a unit or circuit panel for it to be utilized.
Likewise the soul needs to be confined to a vessel to be useful here, the conscious soul is electrical or energetic and so it also needs a vessel that is alive and active and capable of housing an energetic entity and so the brain is much more compared to an electrical compartment it doesn't create beings or conscious entities (personhood).
The convincing evidence you would want to at the very least consider outside of your own observation and commonsense would be NDE's, spiritual encounters, paranormal activity and religious claims/testimonials. That would be the evidence that correlates with the nature of what we are proposing. Rather than assert all these experiences are purely the workings of the brain (even though the normal operations of the brain don't travel outside the body) be a bit more flexible because conjecture can get you in trouble.
We know through direct experience what the brain is capable of, during NDE's and OBE's the conscious soul is able to move OUTSIDE the body and travel freely (after brain DEATH) often times observing its own physical body while leaving it. This should be an indicator to you that this is not brain function. Spiritual encounters are another thing to consider even though they may seem absurd to your way of viewing the world, 1 out of three people claim to have either seen a ghost/spirit or had an experience with something. That's pretty darn good evidence as far as numbers are concerned, or something being blatantly obvious.
Since the soul is confined to the physical sense perception including the nervous system anytime the body or brain is damaged the soul experiences that ….however personhood and being are never lost, the image of the soul can be distorted but not destroyed itself. In other words the soul could be completely intact with say a person with brain damage, the souls experience will be obscured but the conscious soul itself remains perfectly intact, when it leaves the physical body it has its normal perception back. It would be like looking through a warped image or using a piece of damaged machinery but the actual user or being is unaffected.
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@Paul
No one in the scientific community claims to understand it, the only people that do are crackpots.
Just for your info, there are crackpots in all walks of life not just in the religious arena, welcome to earth. If you want good sources just ask, not everyone is a crackpot. The question becomes are you open-minded enough and how conditioned has your mind become where you think anything outside atheism is absurd or untrue. That is where you fall in danger my friend. That is where you will need every ounce of help, the mind is very powerful even though it's a machine. It can control the individual unknowingly and this is why you want to pursue spirituality.
Spirituality will expand you in every direction and the fun part is there is no limits or ending point :), but you control your own pace unfortunately.
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@Paul
Consciousness, the mind, the ghost in the machine is not well understood.
Very well understood actually. Much more understood than activity in the brain and neurons firing.
There is no established theory of consciousness or mind and it remains elusive
Wrong, it remains elusive in the scientific community full of conjecture along with atheists and materialists. Please ask me before you assert anything remains elusive it is fully understood and articulated. That's actually an insult to my intelligence.
so there is still a good bit of mystery surrounding it.
Depends on whom you ask.
No one in the scientific community claims to understand it, the only people that do are crackpots.
....And the only people who are expertise in their fields are crackpots lol, wow that is real silly.
Since we started talking I have read about many people who seek spirituality without religion so I don't think confining spirituality strictly to one religion is necessary.
Please show where I ever claimed that.
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@Paul
This is pretty much why I limit my time in forums, I haven't met anyone in a forum who showed up in a topic to discover something. Are we basically here to validate our own positions even if they're wrong?? Why even create a topic if this has no real interest for you..
but I do not wish to believe in godWell, I'm connected with my origin by a long causal chain leading back billions of years to the very moment of creation. That's just one example of my connection with the creator, there are many. Is that good enough?
If you're not interested don't waste my time, go play in the field of dreams. But, if you want to be specific your actual soul exists independent of the physical body so your origin comes right out of the heart of the Creator as a "seed", the physical world and the physical forms/vehicles are insignificant compared to your connection with the Creator therefore why the hell would you only be interested in one connection?
The objective of spirituality has many angles but the core is simplistic. Don't you want to know your origins which exist beyond just the physical world?? you can remain unware or unconscious if that is your choice but you will eventually get sick of it, eventually you will have a deep desire to understand deeper things, more about what and who you are and why it is you're always thinking about God. When you leave this world and you are still lost and blind to your own illusion you will just be sent back to wake up in another body thinking you just started to exist lol, despite the reality you are actually eternal from the moment you were created, and the soul coming from an eternal Reality.
Creation has many levels and for more than one good reason, as the soul learns it transcends and to places you could never imagine but the soul cannot transcend it's state of consciousness. So if you're stuck in a lower state of consciousness or awareness you must exist within a lower part of creation. The reason of course is that a lower state of consciousness can destroy more elevated parts of creation, and so if you choose to dwell in a carnal state of mind this is the world for you and stay as you may.
In reality you need to be "saved" from yourself ironically, or you can get in real bad situations. This is where you see religions and spirituality come into play, saviors and prophets to redeem us and help us become awake and aware of what is really going on. God is more creative than anyone could ever think of and as a result of that the individualized soul is on a very long journey so the fun don't end in this physical body, sorry about that.
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@PressF4Respect
If you think "I want to have a cheeseburger", is it the mind or the soul making that thought?
Well the desire to be hungry coming from the pull of the physical body would motivate the soul to think about what it is craving for, therefore that would engage the mind and emotions to remember it's past experiences of eating and the emotional drive solidifying your craving for a cheeseburger. In creation your cravings or instincts come from a combination of factors because we live in a chemical world and a world of physics and our bodies are directly influenced by that very reality, but the soul is the one experiencing through the physical form...you are the observer of the body and its senses. You are even the observer of the mind and emotions interestingly.
You are neither a thought or an emotion....you are first and foremost consciousness (aka soul), the observer that illuminates the mind and engages both the mind and emotion to categorize and label your experiences.
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@TheRealNihilist
At this point I don't think you even know what evidence is.
EVIDENCE
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid
that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign:
an outward sign : indication
something that furnishes proof : testimony
The means by which an allegation may be proven, such as oral testimony, documents, or physical objects.
A thing or set of things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment
that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof."
TESTIMONY
"evidence or proof provided by the existence or appearance of something.
firsthand authentication of a fact : evidence
evidence in support of a fact or statement; proof
a declaration of truth or fact
spoken or written statements that something is true, especially those given in a law court
to be clear proof of something"
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@TheRealNihilist
Look I'm not here to make anyone look bad or feel ashamed....I'm here to help make sense of crap, that's it I don't have any motives. My desire for you is not ill-will, it's pure goodness. The tension is annoying but in all honesty I love you all. That's not an exaggeration, I just want to share my experiences and hope it helps someone else in their journey.
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@TheRealNihilist
So you don't have evidence like how you don't have evidence for your worldview? Oh, gotcha.
Lol, sure, all you have to do is go back and read your own thread. Let me know where I failed to address evidence.
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@TheRealNihilist
If you didn't feel superior to the folks you quoted in the OP we not hear your complaint.
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@TheRealNihilist
Where did I claim the superiority over him?
In the OP silly, read it again.
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@PressF4Respect
The mind can drag you into all kinds of conclusions, but because it's mechanical it can give you no real experience outside itself, just knowledge you have accumulated. The mind is nothing more than a memory bin or a storage area where you categorize your experiences. The soul is the observer, the one that observes the mind and emotions.
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