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@Outplayz
But in principle... the original of a religion would hypothetically be the best since it is not corrupted.
I described exactly what it is that is original and who it is that meets that definition, there is no religious group that was original other than Jesus in the Gospels and those teachings, the apostles were his followers. That is the original source. The title "orthodoxy" was attributed to a self-appointed group it means nothing. True orthodox means to get back to the Gospels and apply them individually, not religious groups and if you read them you will see that quite clearly.
But yeah... i like your version best so i wonder what Mopac has to say about it...
Lol, when he has no argument, and he will have none in relation to my post, he will just say we're being haughty and prideful, meanwhile sitting on that pedestal himself.
Look like anything related to Jesus of the Gospels??
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@Ramshutu
Most Atheists beleive they are smarter than most theists - especially those on forums like this, because they are.
Give me a list of these smart atheists if you wouldn't mind. If you're on that list I'm going to be watching you.
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@keithprosser
"There are no gods" is as far as my theology goes.
That is sad.
I'm more interested in history and literature.
So am I, but more importantly I'm interested in what is real about history and literature.
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@janesix
Associating the mind with the brain(as in, psysically arising from the brain) is modern speculation. It has no base in reality. That the brain is a container for, or a reciever of consciousness is more likely accurate.
Bingo.
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@Outplayz
So you're telling me i can't have my paradise? Bc one of my paradises as i always say would be to be a vampire.
Not in any way shape or form am I telling you that you cannot have that. All I'm saying is that Karma is real, just like natural laws there exists moral laws.
In any case, nothing is lawless. Everything and every decision has its consequences. If you become a murder... then you will also have to put up with the repercussions.
Then we are saying the same thing! Not sure why you are disagreeing.
Every experience has its pros and cons. That is how the laws work. Not that you get punished in some kind of eternal prison, that's a man-made concept to control. Eternity is being infinite. Living is to be finite and subject to consequences. Those are the only implications that make sense of a non-dual infinite consciousness platform. You are everything and everyone... try to imagine those implications and you'll see what i mean.
Never said anything about any eternal prison, and the fact you said that makes me think you don't listen to what I write.
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@Outplayz
Continued...
Jesus is a principle oriented teacher, he uses parables, illustrations and figurative language to relay spiritual principles and truth. These Catholics and so-called orthodox heretics come along and shamefully corrupted them by attempting to solidify the teachings by falsely adding a literal interpretation. This all started with the confession of Peter in Matthew 16....in this passage Jesus was never appointing a religious system or business. Peter was asked "who do you say I am" and Peter replied "you are the Christ, son of the living God" and Jesus then tells Peter "upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail over it". This is all fine and dandy, as Jesus always spoke in truth through principles.
However, the "rock" was the confession Peter made, it wasn't literally Peter himself, the rock (confession) was the foundation of Christian belief. And upon that confession (rock) is what will build the body of believers.
The church is simply the followers of Jesus, which includes all who participate not just self-appointed special interest groups like those who try and label themselves the original followers, that is immature and TBH quite stupid.
So what did these orthodox and Catholics do? they began to believe that Peter as a normal man was to become some sort of infallible line of Papacy lol, no, no, no...!! Jesus made it clear Peter was an idiot later on and so the whole idea became corrupted right off the bat. Peter was simply a guy like you and I who happened to connect to what Jesus was teaching. The statement that Jesus made in that passage really had nothing to do with Peter at all other than he was the one who confessed it. Jesus could have simply just said it, but rather he wanted Peter to acknowledge on his own accord, likewise the same with all who read the Gospels.
The term "church" refers to the body of believers. This is where most people get the wrong idea, the church represents the body, which is made of believers, it has nothing to do with any group that believe they are special. This is an individual ordeal, which then bleeds over collectively. The Gospels have always been for the individual and anyone who wishes to apply the teachings period, end of story. Those that like to claim favoritism because they belong to some organization have no idea what the true message of the Gospels are. They are fooling themselves and limiting the impact they could have on the world in the way Jesus actually exemplified. This is so obvious if anyone were to approach the Gospels on their own without any religious authority hanging over their heads.
So while Jesus went out and did all the hard work, the religious phonies stayed in their little buildings and clubs casting scorn on those outside it rather than embracing them with love and compassion and bringing the light of God amongst them in a real way. Jesus did exactly that, opposed those corrupt hypocrites and went out into the world whom they rejected and they plotted to murder him for it. Nothing has really changed with the system, with those who claim authority over others especially in Catholic and orthodox squares.
They still stay in their little special clubs persecuting everyone else claiming they are some "original" flowers of Christ and it is nothing short of a comedy.
A guy like Mopac that decided to join a religious club later on in life while a guy like me, who has been applying the teachings of Jesus on my own accord since I was a young boy gets labels a heretic and outcast because I didn't join his special club is hilarious. But see what I mean? the point behind the Gospels is bringing any individual to the realization of God with love, power and unity while the purpose behind religious groups is to get you to join their special club and if you dare not to, you are rejecting God, you're a heretic and deemed worthless. This is exactly the mentality Jesus came to abolish, which was what the religious community had been putting forth. Jesus brought the power back to where it truly belongs and one reason I admire him so much. He transformed religious pretentious beliefs into an objective experience for all who wish to come and abide. Jesus never put emphasis on giving power or favor towards religious authority rather towards the laymen with sincere heart and eyes willing to see something beyond the physical perception.
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@Outplayz
I'm curious then, what does it teach about believing? Can you be someone like me that is agnostic towards if Jesus was real or not?
Sorry about the long posts but...Don't let Mopac pull the wool over your eyes, if you are interested in Jesus read the Gospels. And when you do you will see why he is full of baloney.
The "original" crew had absolutely nothing to do with religious institutions and business, there was never some "appointed" religious group other than those who have "ears to hear" and who applies the teachings as they are taught by Jesus. The group was the people, the followers...and these people are what make up the body, the church. These are the followers of his teachings period the end, there is no special group beyond that fact alone. On top of this Jesus precisely tore down the religious systems and the false idea that religious authority has power or control over any of us whom only gained that supposed authority from a corrupt system. Jesus came to break down and level that system.
The very first thing these Catholics did was attempt to resurrect exactly what Jesus shut down and if you've ever been to a Catholic or Orthodox "church" you will see first hand it's nothing like what Jesus represented in the Gospels. These Catholics slap the title of "orthodoxy" on their religious system pretending they are some original lineage of the teachings of Jesus, that is nonsense. The original teachings of Jesus are in the Gospels, we don't need any ridiculous groups telling us the contents of those teachings just like Jesus never needed the authority of the Jewish religious system.
Note: Peter was not Catholic, Jesus was not Catholic...there was never any title or claims of institutions, that has no part in the Gospels. These are just titles and names made up to grant these hypocrites authority over the average commoner. The title "orthodoxy" sounds appealing and special, unfortunately for them, all it really means is they believe they are some specially selected "church" and everyone else who doesn't join their club is some heretic. Remind you of the Pharisees and Sadducees? yes it does it is a spitting image.
So while people like me that have been applying the Gospels since I was a young boy and seeking God with a whole heart and in sincerity these orthodox and Catholic snobs are hanging out in their special clubs dressed in costly array and gowns, expensive buildings and golden thrones splashing holy water on one another while burning incense and think somehow that has anything to do with the teachings of Jesus. This is why Jesus lost his cool and showed them to be the fools they were and are taking it upon himself to go out into the world and show people another level of higher experience.
You see, the main difference between religious groups and the Gospels is purpose. Jesus' purpose and mission was to impact the world and the individual by stripping the power away from religious authorities and back into the hands of the true in heart, those who have the love of God not pride and vanity and that has nothing to do with religion as a system period. This is a lifestyle not a set of beliefs and ordinances.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Well this is what i believe jesus was.A overall top guy , who was skilfully horribly misled.Used.
Sure and so was Bruce Lee. Lee wasn't really a Master he was just misled lol.
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@3RU7AL
We hear ya loud and clear, but could you elaborate on it LOL?
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@Outplayz
None of what I said or wrote contradicts a non-dual platform, but if you think this creation is lawless then I don't know what to say other than ok, have it your way.
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@keithprosser
I think Tradie is actually arguing along the lines of Pascal's wager. He argues if God is the Christian god he's covered because he believes. If there are many gods then presumably they will reward good works and Tradie is probably ok there too. If there is no god, he's lost nothing.
But even by going with the Christian God, beliefs are not enough, even the demons believe right? the Christian God and good works are not mutually exclusive. Good works are followed by change of heart and motives. You cannot have one without the other.
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@3RU7AL
Sure, maybe, but the point is that EVEN IFF they are treated as historical fact, that does absolutely nothing to support their religious teachings.
I'm not sure what you're suggesting, do you mean that the Gospels don't account for those teachings? granted, Christianity as a whole is severely fragmented and much of its dogma is a mess but the term Christian means to follow the teachings of Jesus ..which would come from the Gospels.
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@Tradesecret
Given it is an assumption, which also implies that Christianity is incorrect, then I do not have an answer.
How does it imply Christianity is incorrect? in what way does it oppose life elsewhere in our universe or even beyond?
Fact is, if inhabited (and by that we mean intelligent life) then I would not care whether there was one god or millions or none. And the issue of an after life would become an irrelevancy
That does not follow in any meaningful way at all. What does life on other planets have to do with your afterlife?
- as if the biblical God does not exist - then we are left with what? A afterlife that is obviously going to be determined not by faith but at worst by good works.
Ohhh noooo, we wouldn't want to progress through "good works" yikes! lol, and why exactly not? that will be the only reason you DO progress. Karma, reincarnation are the missing links in Christian dogma unfortunately and many souls won't know that if they bow down to religions that have no real insight into those two factors. Both of those facts, are what plays a role in your future experiences. Heavens are reserved for those that actually deserve it contrary to popular belief. And that is not rejecting the platform of grace and mercy, grace and mercy come after repentance and therefore it is good works that follow. Hence the change in the individual is what dictates that souls future experiences.
Hence - if there is no god - it wont make a bit of difference for me. If it is plurality of gods and being good is a prerequisite - then I still wont have to worry for I am good by most people's definition - and if there is no obvious need to be good - such as some of our religions - then it matters not what I do. Having a belief along any of the other lines simply becomes redundant.
The plurality of gods come from a singular Creator, they are embodiments of what God wishes to express. I don't know of any spiritual path that does not focus on self improvement except maybe a couple of low level religions. But the obvious need to be good is a common theme in religious squares. Can you give me an example of some teaching that claims "it doesn't matter what we do"?
Believing in Karma (sowing and reaping) and the reincarnation of souls who have lessons to experience does not become redundant, actually the opposite does. In a scenario where you inhabit and embody a reality that you have not earned becomes redundant.
I don't believe there are other intelligent lifeforms in the universe - save for God, his angels and the demons.
Those would be other life forms. However, those are lifeforms that exist outside the physical universe, because there are multiverses not just one. What do you think an endless array of galaxies that man can never explore is created for lol? come on man think....why would you ever believe the Creator keeps all those galaxies empty? for what purpose would you ever buy into such a strange belief?
Perhaps they have their own planet - who knows? But if there are others - and so far - not a whisper - much less in fact than for the existence of God, then they keep very quiet and invisible.
Have you forgotten that space is not something you can just jump into your car and traverse?? even though there has been encounters, of course it's going to be rare, the space between galaxies is almost impossible to travel across.
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@Outplayz
There could be. But at this point i subscribe most to the non-dual platform.
Both exist, remember? you can't have a non-dual platform without a dual canvas. This canvas invites Karma, the repercussion of duality.
In that platform, there is no rewards, punishment, good, evil, etc. Death would just be becoming everything again, and the afterlife would be living another experience. So, it's not a good place or a bad place. It could be a horrible experience or the best experience. It's still wishful thinking to an extent, but a lot less than the heaven type thinking.
Then everything you do is irrelevant, there exists no cause and effect and that flies in the face of reality, where we observe much suffering. The afterlife is living another experience I do not deny that, but that experience is dictated by actions and desires.
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Once you worship a certain god you fall into a religion. No one is required that posts here to submit to any religion,
Yeah I never claimed that nor do I support that, I'm an omnist regarding religion... I support individuality in a reality where Karma is a real law. Karma is universal, religious beliefs are independent.
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@Outplayz
I'm sorry I was not referring to you presenting yourself to some religious community. As far as spirituality is concerned, there are applicable measures to obtain. I know you are opposed to that, but denying it would be like denying natural laws. There is an order to creation and progression of the soul, to reach that progression involves participation at some level. And I can describe these levels of participation. The reason these levels exist is because much damage can be done in the higher realities of experience without them.
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@Mopac
knowing so little about it.
Try again. There is nothing about the Gospels OR epistles I know little about.
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@Outplayz
I have many problems with certain things about a heaven type afterlife. Mainly they are just personal.
That's the point of creation and an afterlife. No one has any expectations for you personally.
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@disgusted
An afterlife of reward and punishment is nothing more than wishful thinking.
That's called wishful thinking. The reality is called cause and effect.
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@Outplayz
I'm not talking about life... i'm talking about their afterlife beliefs.
Do you have an inherent issue with the afterlife (for those who deserve to progress) heaven in which life is of a higher order? that is kind of the point of learning and progressing. While life doesn't end in a heavenly scenario per say it is important to have rewards and punishments otherwise everything you do is irrelevant.
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@Outplayz
Neither Christianity nor Islam describe life as you put it. Can you provide a citation of that?
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@Outplayz
I hope you don't mind me using your post at number 7. I thought it would be a cool addition.
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@Outplayz
I never thought wishful thinking was a good argument against spirituality in general. But, it is a good description of most religious people and people that are interested in spirituality. The idea of a always sunny, no evil, no illness, happy go lucky it's Sunday everyday heaven
And what source are you reading from lol? That scenario doesn't exist not even in religion OR spirituality... unless you sow that in creation.
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@Polytheist-Witch
The gods of the Dead and afterlife are usually scary as are the realms of the Dead, in most myth anyway. Why assume the afterlife is fun. Even Hindus think you can be reborn poor and low caste.
It is both fun and terrifying because of the law of Karma, this is what dictates future experiences (actions) whether they be joyous or hardship. Creation can be very fun, in that you want to follow what is true and precise and stay away from the negative influences because they reverberate and control what people experience.
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Calling a belief that you can survive death a caveman's idea is just shutting yourself off and acting arrogantly in that you know and anyone that thinks otherwise is stupid.. that's essentially what you're saying. So it's no wonder why i am construing that you hate something about this claim. Bc "everything dies" isn't a very good reason to convince me otherwise of its possibility... at all. Of course everything dies, but what is dying? What is life? Are we all really alive right now or are we inside of a dream that is inside of a dream? Is everything a manifestation of an infinite consciousness? Etc. Etc. There are plenty of good hypothesis which implications would be life after death. And no one, including modern science, has debunked its possibility. So the only reason one would shut themselves of to it is bc there is something they hate about it... That's why i'm curious to know what your reason is bc 'everything dies' is really not that good.
I thought this post was sincere and intelligent enough to make a separate post about it in this topic. This is Outplayz' post in another thread but I'll be arguing it as it is stated, and technically I'm not allowed in the atheist thread to expand on it. Anyone have some problem with these statements? I'd be glad to provide some insight into this topic.
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@keithprosser
It seems the choice is between rose-tinted spectacles and a blindfold!
Read that again. Rose-tinted spectacles have no part in this. Why would you deliberately contradict the point of this post? just to be funny? I have noticed a change in your demeanor, you are increasingly showing your true colors.
The point is that if you can't see something it's not usually because one is wearing a blindfold - it's because it isn't there.
Who claimed there was anything one cannot see? (perceive) or are you preconceiving again? "See" is misleading, as that would presuppose ones spiritual experience is limited to physical sense perceptions. Again, are you deliberately being a goofball?
I'd say a blindfold is a good way to see God - a microcope or telescope won't help at all.
A blindfold to all your preconceived ideas and beliefs would help no doubt, but a blindfold that leads you to false premises is not one you want.
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@keithprosser
Which is not to EV's liking! i think he believes in a strictly independent, personal and direct relationship with God.
That is the first step of course, which bleeds over to others collectively. I'm not against the assembly of people, rather the assembly of heretical religious gangsters.
I think you can read Matthew 18:20 as anti-church.
Jesus was not anti people (church), but anti religious authority (corruption of church) which serves to squash the commoner and make the corrupt religious nerds authorities and in positions of power where they do not belong.
"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
I like that passage but my position in the Gospels would be more like...
John 17
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
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That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
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And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
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I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 14
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
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He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
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These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
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But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jesus was certainly anti-Priest, but that might have been because they were individully corrupt rather than through opposition to institutional religion.
Maybe they go hand in hand...one leads to the other.
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The old adage "wishful thinking"....believe it or not is directly opposed to spirituality due to the objective nature and reality of it as well as the purpose behind it. It doesn't pander to individual perceptions or opinions because that would work contrary to change and the cultivating process involved.
The process of spirituality is specifically to break up patterns, paradigms, molds, personal perspectives, opinions, wishes, desires, urges ect ect to align with what is objective and actual and worth pursuing. It has a transforming quality to it and therefore that sort of mentality (wishful) is not useful and actually can act as a hinderance. The power behind spirituality drives the participant away from delusions rather than keeping them in it.
Now, this does not mean that the propositions or claims within the spiritual arena will be devoid of mistakes and or absurdities (or even deluded people) of course, because we are dealing with imperfect creatures and their varying levels of expertise or lack thereof. So what you want to distinguish between are aspects of spirituality that are less emotionally involved, and follow the propositions that logically follow and make sense, simplicity and common sense will go a long ways.
The reason I say "less emotional" is because people tend to mix the two together for example...creating laws or commands to kill or cause harm to others that may have different lifestyles and beliefs and claim it was Gods doing. Discrimination, persecution and segregation have permeated the religious square to the point of idiocy and rarely do they play a true role in spiritual development if at all. And you will notice a true spiritual Master will always abide under the umbrella of unity and love or getting souls to unite in spirituality and experience something real rather than pretentious and self limiting.
Since the nature of spirituality and the created worlds are so dynamic they can come across as being "out there" but this is only based on perceptions, there are some incredible (unbelievable) aspects within spirituality but they all fit and work together like a puzzle...nothing out of place unless it is truly out of place or non-existent.
The Creator however is majorly underrated to the extreme, not many people can fathom an eternal Creator and what that really could entail on all levels, and so God is much more dynamic of a Creator than anyone could ever dream.
In a nutshell making the assertion Theistic beliefs, spirituality or propositions are based on wishful thinking is very much in fact wishful thinking. My point being, change your preconceived idea so that you don't end up with faulty premises and false assumptions. To hold this assumption as true would be like walking through life with a blindfold and would only serve to squash the potential of the holder.
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@Mopac
It is my hope that protestants in the US will start coming to Orthodoxy in droves.
What Orthodoxy really means is to get back to the Gospels leave behind religious authority (which INCLUDES yours) in favor of the pursuit of spirit, life and freedom and all things related to that. There is no group or organization that represents that, it is an individual empowerment and no institution can touch that truth. The Gospels are for the people, not religious authority. By dividing yourself from others using the excuse of some pipe dream you call "orthodox" you are putting your energy to the wrong outlet, welcome to religion Mopac.
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@Mopac
That is how J is presented in the gospels, but there are clear indications that some sort of organisation existed from quite early on with its 'HQ' in Jesusalem in which Peter and James (Jesus' brother) were senior figures. Converts to Christianity outside Israel also seem to have adopted a formal structure as 'Churches' rather than being independent individuals
Individuals are what make up the "church". And those individuals are whose confession was that of Peter's, this was the binding factor and this in an inward revelation. This all has to do with individual commitments, application and cultivation not organizations and politics. This is why you see the demise of religious institutions in the Gospels and the empowerment of individuals. Even though Jesus was murdered He resurfaced the face of religion and what it was supposed to mean to our reality.
Jesus knew that religious discrimination would only empower corruption not promote a better culture. That is why he left and opposed that aspect of culture and went out among the rejected to change the world, and that is exactly what happened even though religious authority still abounds...there was a shift in consciousness when Jesus apparently roamed the earth.
The organization of religious formation happened more or less in the Epistles, and even in this event it was only for order in the body, it was never an indication of what we see in religion today and actually you rarely see the picture of fellowship like it was in the account of Acts. The Gospels are the power of the Divine dwelling amongst its people, the established "churches" steals that away, make it less effective.
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@keithprosser
The term "unity" is the best argument to establish a connection or harmony with three distinct roles or persons. Unity in spiritual terms means to unify as a single force or unit. So in essence you can have three distinct features that are unified to create a single force. This is what I used to do anyways...
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@Polytheist-Witch
I think a few at the meeting were Christian and I scared them using the word witch.
One thing to consider is that the "witches" or witchcraft referred to by Christians and the Bible represent a rebellion of everything holy. The art of manipulating energy or spirits to reek havoc on a person or persons is severely frowned upon. The picture of some nice house wife who happens to dabble in witchcraft is not what the Bible is referring to, rather the nature of opposing the light of God with the darkness of negative forces. This is what initiated the conflict between witchcraft and Christianity and the persecution of witches. The Christians didn't take into consideration the balance of all things, and so they took to the extreme negative form of witchcraft and applied that to all its participants.
So while "Christians" believed they were "protecting" society and persons from harm eliminating the problem they were only targeting a small minority of practice and in doing so demonizing individuals even when there was no blame, they took it upon themselves to lump every practitioner in the same category and that still happens today. So I think there should be some kind of understanding of the term in general so that there is a defining of terms or beliefs/practices.
The type of witches or witchcraft to be avoided at all costs is the type that can influence our reality in a negative manner, and this level of activity can be seen at high levels of status and which people may have no idea what is happening in those circles. The negative end of witchcraft is not something to be pursued and in general the average Christian has a preconceived idea of that field of interest. Actually most Christians have a preconceived idea of anything not Christian unfortunately, they aren't aware that their particular field of expertise only accounts for a very small aspect of experience and even on a collective level beliefs and practices exist in pockets of creation. Fighting the ghost of duality is pointless because neither end of the spectrum can ever "win", it's just a song and dance routine.
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@janesix
Try and be moved or react more with intuition and less mind and emotions. The latter tends to get in the way. Poly had a pretty good idea though, because there are forces that can attempt to attack you when you open yourself up consciously speaking so watch out for that too, don't let any entities steal your power. However, I've never had a real problem with that keeping the heart clean and pure, that seems to reflect any opposition or danger.
As you move with the spirit you will sense its presence, you don't always have to say something just move with it like water, let go...ever heard the expression "be like water"? it basically means sway with the momentum of an experience or event, its kinda more like getting in tune with a frequency and you riding that current because in reality that current is always there we just are not tuned into it. This current of Divine energy will mold you if you move with it or flow with it, not in a way where as to make you someone else but to accomplish things within your being, that you might be aware of and as well things you are not aware of.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I'm kinda bummed. We have three local shops here in the area.
So I take it you're in a more rural area then?
One is a run by a closed Wiccan community, one is run by a Christian lady open to new age stuff and one by a non denominal practioner of magic.
Dang, that's quite a spread in a little community lol. Could be a lot more rigid...
So the latter has decided to start having get togethers. First one was last night. So nice group but they are all into spirits, mediums and ghost hunting. They had no interest in anything outside seeing, feeling or experiencing ghosts. I find that all to be disrespectful and I engage my dead on my own. Once I stated I had no medium abilities I was out of the loop.
Weird, I have no real interest in communicating with "ghosts" even though I have seen some. I don't blame ya that sounds kind of immature TBH. You would think those interested in the paranormal would be more open and flexible...
I was really hopeful this would be something I could get into. I will go to few more in case as it grows some people come into it more on my path but it's very frustrating to still be solitary after 11 years. PS: I hate crystals. They all love them.
I used to go to a home group/Bible study when I was a teen, that was the closest thing I've been a part of that had any real integrity and meaning. The group wasn't perfect, but we all had huge hearts for God and other people and that made it so much more fulfilling and powerful. Rarely would anyone come and not be impacted in some way and this is what you really want, or at least I do. Maybe you should seek out a spiritual group rather than some party of interest group, then the purpose changes from effect to cause.
Wow, I would have pegged you for a crystal girl for sure lol, you know why people like them right? they contain condensed amounts of energy. So people who have developed the ability to sense or pick up energy on objects get off on it. I've never been into crystals but I sure wouldn't reject one, there are some pretty impressive pieces, and like much of creation they are beautiful. Why don't you like them? because of the stigma associated with them?
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@Castin
Really did not expect that a theist would post in the atheist thread before an atheist posted in the theist thread.
I've been known to be a rebel lol.
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@Mopac
The Orthodox Church is The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus and The Apostles.
Again, there was NEVER a business or organization founded by Jesus at any point in time and that is why this baloney falls flat on its face every single time, nor can you show me any example of that. The confession that Peter made was the only binding commitment and this had absolutely nothing to do with any institution. It is this acknowledgement (Peters confession) of the individual party that makes up this supposed church, the people.
Jesus came to do away with all this nonsense of the law, asserting domination, status, business tactics, politics, division and all the nasty stuff that follows religious phonies and their pretentious attitudes that all others are heretical trash that needs to be disposed of, when in reality it is the politics of religious activity that needs to be trashed. Catholics set up the very thing Jesus tore down, isn't that ironic?
Funny how you keep claiming these so-called protestants are only in disagreement with "Orthodoxy" yet you are the one that keeps rehashing the same tired old song and dance. Get real, there was never any church founded by Jesus! what IS founded by Jesus is a personal, individual spiritual cultivation through the use of spiritual principles and concepts. Jesus was more a guru than any religious authority figure and was eventually murdered by them.
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@Castin
What are these spiritual constants you say exist in every universe?
The law of Karma, or as Jesus puts it sowing and reaping.
If intelligent alien life arose in another universe, with an evolution different from our own and based on the different physics of that universe, wouldn't these aliens have very different ideas of "spiritual principles"?
Anatomy, physics and even chemistry are of a different nature than the spiritual based laws, because while forms and environmental factors change the spiritual laws stay the same because they are non-physical of course, so physics in this sense is irrelevant. Kind of like if I made a law that applied to all cultures and civilizations that said "don't kill outside of protecting" it would apply across the board not just to those with certain physical features. Likewise Karma applies to the whole of creation not just one planet. Anatomy changes obviously because the environments vary, in other words you can't put a human body in another galaxy because human anatomy has been acclimated to its surroundings.
Alien or not, the law of Karma never changes, this is what dictates every creatures future experiences... pleasant or nasty. They may have different ideas but negative and positive stay constant.
Also, is your belief in the multiverse at all influenced by contemporary theoretical physics, or is it 100% spiritual revelation?
My beliefs are not influenced by theoretical physics but they are supported by it for sure without any doubts, quantum mechanics is the only secular study pushing the envelope beyond what we perceive with our physical senses. All the information I acquire about the God-worlds have been through spiritual sources or personal experience, and then when I study quantum fields and so on it aligns beautifully, filling in some gaps of course along the way.
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@Castin
I know shame on me, we're allowed to cross over for the purposes of recruiting only.
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@Outplayz
Hey mon, get your butt in the Theist thread! no reason to be atheist towards religion in a strict sense, religion has legit insights because it is the study of that reality. Doesn't mean they have everything right, but remember there are countless societies that exist outside this one, and so many souls are connected with those realities. Since there are countless places for the soul to exist on many levels, there are countless places the soul can also collectively exist where it wishes, so some of the realities in religion that seem absurd to you...do in fact exist on some conscious level, just not your particular level or desire.
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@Outplayz
Haha, we were talking about something else entirely. I'm still looking at both sides of the flood argument since people are so serious about it. I have no problem with a literal or figurative narrative. Or even what some people refer to as a "partial" flood.
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@keithprosser
nonsense. People have been talking about Roman gods and Greek gods and norse gods since 'forever'. it is your private crusade to rede'fine the word 'G/god' that makes you say something as monumentally absurd as "The word "Gods" is a nonsensical word" when its been part of the English language for thousands of years.If however you object only to the capital G then I submit it is only that you want to honour your god over the gods of the hindus. I have no reason to honour your 'God' over their 'Gods'. I choose to show repect by captalising the G for both where the sense requires it (except when i can't be bothered to fix it!)
Remember the Hindu gods are incarnations of the One God. They call that Brahman "the ultimate reality", and they call the soul Atman, and gods are incarnations of the one God. This of course is true, there are multiple incarnations of very high beings that are called gods, they exist on different planes in the multi-worlds. In essence Polytheism and Monotheism are compatible, because the gods are incarnations of God. Sounds strange but the defining main difference is that incarnated gods or demigods are embodied in some way, whereas God encompasses everything and has no embodiment. So you have both gods...and God, gods being an incarnation of God.
Ever soul actually is, but the difference being the lower and higher states of being and consciousness, the average human soul is a baby compared to demigods.
You should study Hinduism more closely, non-dual Vedanta shows you how this works, how a singular reality becomes the many. Basically what I've been saying in these forums.
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@Mopac
Yet by saying it is a piece of God, does that not imply that this piece is missing from God? Or even that the pieces make up God?God is not diminished. God is not divided into parts. Neither is it a strange thing for God to call matter into existence.
This is where it would do you good to brush up on quantum mechanics and quantum field theory so you understand precisely what objects and matter are, forms and matter create the illusion of separation and that is the point of course. But as you zoom down to the microscopic and subatomic levels everything literally is interconnected and entangled. The very fabric of space beyond the atom, nucleus, quark ect ect is more like a fluid, and this fluid/movement isolates pockets of energy and stabilizes them on different levels of frequency and creates what we call mass or matter over a period of time.
This process is repeated over and over and everywhere the Creator wishes to build objects. All these objects and forms you see including human bodies, animal bodies, trees, planets, stars ect ect all are built from the same substance. Did you know all bodies, organs, glands, bones ect ect no matter what the form are made up of cells? every single body part is made up of the same thing....cells, yet all these parts have different shapes, sizes and functions but guess what? there is no distinction of material, a cell is a cell. Same concept here, energy is energy no matter the form and energy is always present with conscious activity and that of course would be the state Gods existence.
Add into the equation God is omnipresent just like energy, pure awareness and without any embodiment other than in creation itself and so it stands to reason everything is made up from the same exact source, same exact substance. This is true of course because nothing is outside of the One, and God is within and through all things because the very substance of all that exists is nothing but stabilized forms of energy and all things are within this substance...this "fluid" which is present with God at all times because God IS that. That "stabilization" comes from the intelligent field of consciousness which all things are formed and manifested into existence.
If you were to conceive that the nature of God is actually more like light and water than any physical form or substance then maybe you can perceive how everything within that Reality is immersed within the very same substance therefore there is no true distinction between what is created and the Creator. That would be like saying clay is no longer clay because it was formed into an object. Or that water is no longer water because you poured it into another glass....
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@linate
is it really conditionally unconditional love? which is really conditional love.
If I were honest, I would say you have a fair argument. But remember the Bible has a very black and white portrayal of reality, so there isn't much gray area. So if you fall in the black category you're screwed lol.
is it just unconditional if you are a christian? how far would that go? supposedly you can't slip up if you are a christian, but then again if you started sinning seriously people would say you were never saved to begin with. so whether you look at this from catholic or protestant type thinking, there are things that can cause you to lose God's favor.
Coming from the Bible and certain religious type thinking that would be correct. But again, the Bibles portrayal of God is that everything that is good and righteous comes from Him and everything evil ultimately gets blamed on the devil.....and those that follow him.
If we look at this from the perspective of positive and negative forces I have no inherent issue with it, because it is proper to distinguish between what is negative and what is positive and what should be pursued and what one should aspire to, as well what should be avoided.
But in reality, there is nothing "outside" of the Creator, everything is within God and so individual souls get locked into lower states of consciousness within creation even animal-like states. And while the Creator doesn't wish this for the soul, the soul is learning through their mistakes and God is watching, even observing through every channel of awareness. The soul never gets rejected for eternity from God, every single soul is a part of the Creator and the soul will always have the chance to improve even if it ends up in a bad place. The soul must learn, when and as it does that soul gets to progress.
even if it was unconditional as a christian, it's still conditional on having the proper faith in Jesus.
If you buy into religious fundamentalism where they like to divide and label/categorize people and create doctrines and put emphasis on dogma (that seems to be where most of their energy goes) then you end up with all these weird contradictory ideas. I was never into church politics and their little games. I just like to read the Bible and apply to myself what is true and useful. I started doing this because I have always love the Jesus accounts, the Gospels. So I put my energy into things that matter, and things that apply to the soul and things that help others.
Spirituality is more flexible than this typical rigid system of thinking. Proper "faith" in Jesus is simply applying what He teaches if it is something that resonates with you, faith in the terms of Jesus is an action, meaning you're putting your "faith" in something to have a positive outcomes, ya know...make changes not just be a pew warmer. Moving mountains never meant rearranging landscapes, rather faith is about overcoming obstacles (mountains).
is God's love based on whether you are good or bad?my personal stance is God loves unconditionally, but that the bible does not truly reflect that in an ideal way.
I think you are entitled to feel that way. If something feels screwy to you, you are not forced to accept it. I say just read the Bible and leave others opinions behind. You are allowed to view the Bible as an individual, and in doing so you will get much more from it. You are not chained to any dogma or doctrine or ideas you think are morally bankrupt.
i think you can salvage the bad depiction from the bible, by saying God loves us unconditinally, but that doesn't man there aren't consequences to our actions.
Like I said above, you really only see real rigid thinking in religious fundamentalism and organized groups. It is important for the soul to learn of duality and pursue the good, uplifting qualities of life and so just leave it at that. In my mind, the real focus is on helping the individual begin to perceive the differences between the spirit (higher consciousness) and the flesh (carnality), and to pursue that which is of the positive and good aspects of life.... to love this idea and the "Father" with all your heart mind and soul and seek to expand this in all directions. The power is in the simplicity of spirituality. Forget all the religious mumbo jumbo dogma and turn it into something that can be useful to you and your life and even to others.
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@linate
what are your views of this? id guess you agree with me. god is unconditinoal love,
I have no inherent issue with that.
but that doesn't mean there aren't consequences to your actions,
Absolutely, this is a cause and effect creation, sowing and reaping (Karma), no one can escape that it is fixed and for a reason. The principle of grace is powerful and it helps the individual fall in love with their relations but the soul must learn through what intentions, actions and thoughts they manifest. The soul learns through their own choices and the results of those choices.
and temporary prisons in the afterlife.
Correct, the afterlife has prisons too, for those who perpetrate crimes but the sentences are congruent with the crimes. There is no eternal torture, that is baloney.
the bible was written by man and is an imperfect reflection of God's radical love.
Sure, there is absolutely no reason to argue for the perfection of the Bible, that is silly. It has useful knowledge and as well information that can be discarded. I agree that is probably the underlying message of the Bible, with errors.
Everyone can relax, the Bible is not perfect.
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@keithprosser
I like this.... "He, the first origin of this creation"...interesting, I didn't know that term "first origin" was in their texts.
"Hindu creation", one could only hope this post was not intended to undermine the Hindus massive contribution to the spiritual arena by cherry picking a poetic passage out of thousands. Only a true knucklehead would do that so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt you had a deeper motivation here.
Here is a complete list of Hindu spiritual texts and sources. If you want juicier topics and knowledge Vedanta is good, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita ect ect if anyone is interested.
And here is an incredible teacher of Hindu sacred texts if you want to get down and dirty and even deeper into the subjects. This guy is one of my favorite teachers, and very sincere. He can take you into the heart of their literature in meaningful ways.
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@Mopac
We Orthodox see secularisation as naturally following from protestantism. It isn't a surprise to us that protestants tend to be secular.(Obviously not all)
Is there any reason you keep projecting Protestantism my way? if you're curious about my beliefs just ask. I don't do labels and religious sects, the only church near me I'm affiliated with is non-denominational and my only motivation is to serve and help. The reason I don't label myself or become some member at some organization is because I don't believe in dividing myself from other believers. If they want to fine, I prefer all believers from all styles just get together and hug it out, try and change the world or something that makes sense besides gossip and back biting. I like deeper issues than church politics.
TBH I would probably be considered a heretic even by protestant standards, I study all forms of spirituality. I examine whatever is true, I don't care about dogma.
The secular leaning protestants, especially the ones that think spiritual gifts ended after the first century... would likely find the accounts of some of our saints difficult to swallow. Even the more recent saints tend to have miracles attributed to them. Saints that are especially known to be followed by miracles tend to have the nickname "wonder worker".
I'm down with spiritual gifts so you're in my field of knowledge, but again, this protestant issue you have is annoying. I'd wish we could communicate without there having to be some problem you have with protestants.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
god makes a grizzly bear a polar bear and a panda to name but a few.Then comes to placing the bears on the board.
Other way around. The board first, then come all the players. Actually, the anatomy of each creature is designed to withstand its own environment, but it takes a long, long time for that embodiment to fully develop to where it is now.
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