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@keithprosser
Because it would be a denial of facts and experiences, it is NOT true. Obviously or I would settle for atheism...
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@keithprosser
Do you countenance that I could be right?
Very unlikely as I have had my own encounters, atheism would be a denial of the facts, sorry.
However little i know about gods, I know about people because I am one! It's not hard to work out why people have believed - and continue to - believe in gods; without going into detail, it comes down to psychology and tradition. When i look around I see no sign of gods - only signs of belief in gods.
Start be asking not assuming, that would help a bunch. Also we talked about transcending the physical experience, though you may not have, it doesn't mean you will never and that it does not exist. You have a progressive nature to your own soul.
Its not like that for, say gravity. If i release a hammer it falls - it is not merely a belief that it falls.
Spirituality actually operates the same way precisely. It is specifically the application and observation of that nature of reality and is objective.
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@keithprosser
I put it to you that it is you, not I, that is inflexible.
Lol, I'd be happy to learn and be more flexible about atheism or materialism, only there is nothing left to learn :) would you like to elaborate on that?
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@keithprosser
Of course I throw the same back to you!
What's that?
If atheists are the result of 'programming and instruction' as you claim, shouldn't you consider the same about theists? I am damn sure that you were encouraged to believe in God all your life. No-one programmed or instructed me to be an atheist - where do you get that idea from?
You need to learn how to ask questions. I'll await...
You say "Be willing to change your mindset and be flexible with what you think you know about reality.". Well, most atheists did go through a period of religious indoctrination as children and were "willing to change their mindset and be flexible in what they think about reality." . The result was they rejected theism.
You mean most went through a time where they rejected strawmen, yes I know I hear it all the time. Atheists never connected with whatever belief they were raised with...that is irrelevant and insubstantial TBH. There is plenty of hope left.
I put it to you that it is you, not I, that is inflexible.
You just made bare assertions that are incorrect. You claimed no God or gods exist. That is due to your atheism, not what is true about reality.
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@Mopac
...Or did you mean "haughty" like as in you telling others they don't believe in truth and or are deluded if they don't accept your specific premises about God? how many members here think you are haughty just from your assertions alone?
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@Mopac
You sound pretty haughty for someone who is claiming to be a saint, or really, maybe something greater than a saint. Your words do not seem to be seasoned with charity.
Where did I claim I was some saint? I said I love God with all my heart and that is my only motivation in anything, I am a God-lover and will always be. If my words are not "seasoned with charity" because they don't tickle your beliefs or theories, that is not a lack of love. Try again. You don't like being told anything outside your "Orthodox" beliefs, that is not my problem. I have plenty of charity to go around...
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@keithprosser
Atheists believe gods, or god-like entities, don't exist. A reality without gods is not a lesser reality because there is only one reality - and in reality there are no gods.
Keep telling yourself that, there are no Gods just like there are no humans....thanks for the opinion though.
So if thereare no gods, why are they believed in? one reason is in your post - people are programmed and instructed to believe in gods. That programming and instruction begins almost from the moment of birth. It's no accident that children almost always adopt the religion of their parents.
Sorry Keith, but I'm not starting at your false premise. If you have questions about my beliefs now is the time to ask and elaborate. Your own false premises are not mine, start by asking not telling.
Another attracation of theis is that it seems to give answers to the big questions - why are we here? Why be good? Ateism ofers no redy madesolutions - it isdown to individual conscience.
So it is in Theism, this is a cause and effect creation. That is why we are responsible for our actions, thoughts and intents. Atheism is nothing more than a limiting, self-restricting ideology. It really has nothing to do with reality as a whole. Be willing to change your mindset and be flexible with what you think you know about reality.
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If you are unhappy with your thoughts and emotions remember they are not who you really are, ask me if you are curious about that....or seek me on another level, I always try to keep an open ear. You are not limited to this experience, there is conscious life on all levels and you can experience that as well. You are not restricted to what you think or feel, they are irrelevant to a much greater reality.
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@Mopac
What some religious freaks might not be aware of, is that I'm a complete God-lover lol, a God-man...that is my passion and my souls expression and I have no other motive. I have always been in love with the Father and always in love with the spiritual message, as a result I bring it like it is, religion and religious doctrines have no real place in that love and curiosity. Those do not dictate what is true for me or acceptable, God does.
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@Mopac
Omniscience means that God does not learn. There is nothing for God to learn, God knows everything.
I don't argue for Gods omniscience you do. God cannot learn what God has not experienced. That defeats the very purpose of experience, which is separate from knowledge...knowledge (an idea) being that which was never experienced.
We make choices, but God knows what we are going to choose. If that is hard to wrap your head around, it's probably because God isn't really something you are supposed to be able to wrap your head around. Not to discourage the contemplating of God! That is good practice.
It's not hard for me, it is hard for you. God learns and knows everything in the moment (omnipresent), because that which was never experienced is only a thought. If you can't wrap your head around God don't blame it on others, that is your failure not mine. This is simple stuff...
God should be worshipped for who God is. It's not about what we get out of it. Remember, gain is not godliness.
God is who He is, I take nothing from that. Your perceptions are your perceptions though... I worship God for who God is and always have. Nothing will change that.
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@Mopac
They're mainly "deluded" in the sense they have been programmed or instructed to accept only a single form of existence or experience....that being the physical layer alone. It's only a perception though, delusions come in many forms but in atheism the delusion comes from accepting only one examination of our experience which makes it more limited than deluded per say because they base it on direct experience and that being the physical sense experience. They aren't deluded in the sense they believe in something that is fiction but rather accept a reality that is temporal and uncaused, in other words they accept a lesser reality and in doing so they limit their potential.
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Consciousness is the light that turns on the mind, thoughts and emotions.....awareness is what illuminates those aspects of your being. Without an observer... the mind is dead, the thoughts and emotions are dead without you observing them. Likewise with an observer all those aspects are experienced and or controlled....either the mind and emotions control your experience or you control the output of it all. This is the point in spirituality, the objective nature of it as a whole is what you want to pursue.
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Your physical form and body is the most limited and smallest of the experiences you will have in creation period.... Think about that, it is your most outward layer of sense experience and as well your most restricted. Likewise in your direct experience, the physical layer is more restricted than the mind and emotions as they take form. Likewise the mind and emotions are a restriction of your conscious experience as a soul.
The fun part, is the higher realms are restricted by neither the mind or emotions, which is why you must learn the distinctions and differences to transcend them to experience them. When you experience the God-worlds beyond your individual thoughts and emotions you will be very surprised by what exists and very excited about what your true potential could be.
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Your consciousness is learning and watching as the bodies in creation are creating and interacting, the Creator learns through your channel of awareness and experience and that is the investment that God has in this whole deal believe it or not. Unlike popular opinion God does NOT dictate and predestine everything that happens in creation rather your individual experience is fresh and dependent upon your own creative abilities and choices even though you were placed in a specific maze in this particular realm.
That is your experience and that is what you are doing here, why you are here and why you are on a long journey through the created worlds. What you want to objectively learn as an individual soul, is the distinction between what the mind (and emotions) produces and what is objectively real beyond that. If you want to refine your experience in spirituality learn to observe from consciousness/soul and not the mind or emotions, it sounds easy until you try, live by it and apply it. Allow your being, which looks through the mind to settle on another state of awareness which is relevant to that which exists beyond those aspects.
When you transcend the obstructions and hurdles of the physical layers through practice you get to transcend those obstructions in reality or in the God worlds, it's really no different in accumulating greater levels of activity and experiences through greater levels of practice or involvement. This is what makes spirituality objective by nature, it opposes what you as an individual may be familiar with or consumed with and directs your attention elsewhere, to what is objective.
What is your mind and emotions fixed on? what have you solidified in them, and what are you willing to let go of? true spirituality will always challenge your mindsets and ideologies, what you think and what you accept. Your mind is a machine, it will only reinforce patterns and memories, it does not allow you to experience the fullness of what exists if it controls your output.
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@IlDiavolo
One of the most interesting things about spirituality most unbelievers are unaware of, is that spirituality deals with the "grasping" nature of man and the mind and that it opposes the very nature of what man imagines and what man wants/desires, it highlights the contrast between reality and fiction on so many levels.....the objective nature of spirituality and the cultivation of the soul is one of the most compelling aspects of spirituality besides the nature of consciousness. It does not conform to the natural state of man, it transcends it, opposes it and therefore should be recognized as such!
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@IlDiavolo
use religion as a coping mechanism, or even as a life motivator. That is why the abrahamic religions are so popular.
...or perhaps.....just perhaps there is an objective nature of our experience that transcends the material boundaries and souls want to know about it naturally....
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@IlDiavolo
I know what you're talking about, the so called religious experience. I tell you, I've met a lot of people who experienced it, but I could count them on the fingers of one hand. If we talk about buddhists, that would be different.
Does that matter?
My point is that in general the ignorant masses use religion as a coping mechanism, or even as a life motivator. That is why the abrahamic religions are so popular.
How would you know without asking every one individual what there reason was for belief? That sounds like a subjective opinion to me.
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@WisdomofAges
Did you bring Willows with ya? not your type of listener eh? lol, keep preachin Mr.Ages
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@IlDiavolo
Spirituality/religion is not just a coping "mechanism", there is an objective nature to Theism and therefor there are facts that deal with the nature of our experience. Spirituality is not really a method to minimize or to cope/tolerate stress or fears in as much as it is a method of understanding the nature of our being itself, not just a coping mechanism but learning and applying what is necessary about reality itself.
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@keithprosser
You seem to be lost on the nature of science and the nature of spirituality and how they examine the nature of two different aspects of our existence and the one does not exclude the other. Both are needed to understand the fullness of our experience. While spirituality may not articulate the process of creation, we don't need it when we can figure that out for ourselves. What spirituality is for, is for what we cannot reach through the scientific method, in other words both pick up on where the other left off.
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@keithprosser
Tried hard? that depends on how ignorant you may be of the subject. What I communicated was pretty straight forward.
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@keithprosser
What we know is that 13.8 billion years ago something happened that produced a universe with hydrogen and little else. Gravity caused the hydrogen to clump into stars which produced the heavier atoms needed to produce life on planets orbiting subsequent generations of stars.
What you don't realize is the first cause, the manipulation of energy and elements....and without that first conscious cause you will always be left in limbo because there will never be anything else. There was only ever one reason and cause why stars produced and it was not because of gravity alone. Gravity has a cause like everything else in creation other than consciousness...which is as far back to the wall you can go.
Stars exist to feed our universe, it is but yet another process of creation.
We know that not by reading books of creation myths - they tell very different stories - but by the slow and difficult method of observation and scientific enquiry. No creation myth tells of a cosmic background radiation or neutron stars. Compared to what we have discovered, creation myths show how unimaginative we are. What scripture would dare to propose our atoms were cooked in the heart of stars?
Creation myths tell the cause, not always the actual process even though there are very good spiritual sources and understandings like the ones I supplied links for. The process we learn through the scientific method of how God created the physical worlds is limited by that medium or understanding, but spirituality focuses on the nature of the conscious soul and the nature of God, but what we learn about the physical worlds are recorded through our own studies just like spirituality. It just so happens that spirituality was the first nature man decided to enquire about the most and for good reasons.
What does spiritual mean, anyway? isn't the fact our atoms are the ashes of long dead stars a spiritual lesson? Surely it cannot be unspiritual just because it is true?
Two different natures Keith, the physical and the conscious spiritual. Yes, we are star dust as they say, but only in our experience through material forms. As you shed the physical body your experience reflects that as well, because the conscious soul exists independent of any physical form and always has, it always will.
Spirituality is the application and observation of the reality that transcends the physical boundaries, it is the objective nature of Theism.
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@Castin
This is the only one I find compelling to any degree. It really is uncanny. But it's been rebutted by arguments such as the anthropic principle.
You should remember that all theories are interpretations of the evidences available including materialism/atheism. So while some theory may be compelling it's only an interpretation either way (whether it be Theism or atheism) and so many believe a Theistic interpretation of what we study through science is superior, or even what we experience from our own perceptions. Science is a neutral study and has no ideologies or preferences and therefore the interpretation is up for grabs, what one believes to be superior is up for interpretation at one level which is why it's important to remain open and at least neutral about what science finds or studies.
IMO the conscious nature of what we experience is better articulated through spirituality because it reaches where a materialistic study is incapable. In essence, if one accepts a materialistic/atheistic ideology they have accepted an incomplete study or theory through an incomplete study and theory.
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@BrutalTruth
However, Hinduism (even though a universal concept in religion) does attempt to define this reality through this description and it's pretty accurate. Consciousness does not arise from matter, matter and creation comes from the Godhead as all of this universe and beyond does...
Here is another good conception where first there is an explanation or proposition of a mind before matter....
You can reject those propositions as some atheist would, but then you need to have good solid reasoning for doing so. As of yet, spirituality has the lead in articulating the origins of our existence period.
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@BrutalTruth
One major problem in your mental notebook is that man labels and defines the Creator, not the other way around. God does not label and define religion, spirituality and religion are the study of a singular reality, with different names, terminologies and expressions and those expressions are recorded at our convenience. Religion and spirituality are the study of the God worlds, so one does not "need" to define God through religion even though religion defines God in many ways it is still up for the interpretation of the individual and there is no legit reason anyone needs to source one religion in reference of the Creator. They all study the Creator, not just one. That is called an Omnist view of religion and spirituality, where one recognizes and accepts that religion attempts to define God because it is compatible with the nature of God.
Fallaneze does not need to source any particular religious reference because God is universal (meaning not restricted by any one religious source), rather you are forced to argue the contents of an eternal consciousness because that is what the Creator is. This eternal consciousness can be articulated in many ways because all of life is an expression of that Reality...AKA religion...is to define those expressions. If we are using religion and spirituality to define the nature of God then the nature of God is objective not subjective to any one religious source, rather it is a demonstrable body of spiritual evidences and facts that one can examine and or discard. In other words it doesn't matter if we propose the Creator through religion or just plain commonsense, both have value because of the objective nature of God.
The Creator can be argued with or without religion because like all sources of information there are facts and there are misconceptions. The point of spirituality is to determine those factors through experience.
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@MagicAintReal
Yeah, because if you've been living your life trying to follow the words of god and all you've really been doing is following god's antithesis, then you've wasted your life following the devil instead of following god.
Okay so you were specifically referring to the self in this context? this goes back to what I was saying, that we ourselves are the conduits of positive and negative forces not some other entity or devil going around tricking everyone, there are many beings that exist outside this realm and planet but again, the devil is not responsible for anyone's downfall that is not how creation operates. Spirituality will always lead you to where you need to be if you have a sincere attitude and heart, you can certainly be deceived in many ways but the point is to learn about what is correct and what is not through experience and then make adjustments. In other words you can't waste your life following the "devil" unless you've allowed it in some way, even if you were to be "tricked" into something out of your control that is just a temporary event and something you needed to learn from. But, I'm not supporting the notion that some entity runs around tricking people, that is silly.
We can certainly be conduits for other spiritual beings if we allow that, but generally speaking spirit beings have to be given access and the motives of the individual have to reflect both parties. In other words beings with similar motives can use each other but it is mutual in intentions and desires/actions.
If the devil were to disguise his position maybe we wouldn't know...until the final outcome anyways.
That would suck, given that god's word is supposed to be a salvation for your life and not a bait and switch by satan.
I wasn't sure you were referring to the self only but now I know what you mean, I thought you meant looking out into the world and others my bad....Are you saying you've been tricked by the Devil? if not then what are you referring to? I'm saying that is nonsense and plays little role in your direct experience in spirituality, if you are putting your best efforts forward the outcome will always be to your benefit unless you caused something at some point you need to "pay back". The negative forces will always be present in creation and in the lower worlds, but we are the conduits of those forces we are not just manipulated by them...we channel those forces from our own motives and actions.
But again, this idea that there is some renegade devil that causes all evil is very immature TBH and is not based on reality.
Immature like soul vessels or immature like telling me the ego can be destroyed by a divine spark?
I'm not calling you immature just so you know, but the idea behind it is not something that reflects the truth. And BTW that is not what I wrote anyways. I said the ego could be destroyed but not the soul itself, the Divine spark is the individuals creative abilites. The ego is something that the soul takes on, it is not the true nature of the soul that is eternal. Anything in creation, other than the soul itself can be destroyed and that is due to the fact the soul is covered in layers including the mental body and emotional layer. These layers along with the individuals perceptions it takes on through experiences create the ego.
No need to get insulting I have no intentions of doing that so let's keep this clean.
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@MagicAintReal
Would you be willing to examine this from more of a conceptual framework and not such a literal one? I take a more universal approach to spiritual texts but I can make sense of the questions anyways. Some people get queasy though if answers aren't strictly found in the Bible, but then why ask in the first place..
1. Can you explain how you know when things have been done by god and when things have been done by the devil who has masterfully disguised something to look like it was done by god?
In creation you have two forces (or pairs of forces), opposing forces, and they work together or against one another to enable experience allowing for activity between the two poles or even at two extremes. Without opposing forces which creates contrast and separation there can be no creation. In this realm you have both the negative force and the positive force working and everything in between, and these forces are typically manifested through vessels. Vessels being the souls that inhabit this planet and even those that are foreign to it or outside it which can have influence.
While not everything in creation is so black and white it's typically easy to see what is positive and what is negative. More so as it relates to us personally though, obviously.
Since the Creator is all encompassing, or rather all of creation comes from out of God and all of creation is within the conscious reality/nature of God everything is a manifestation of that one Source and all created souls and beings become their own mini-creator in the worlds of God. And because of this it is the individual created souls and beings that are mediums for either force.
Not everything is either caused by some devil or by God, that is not how creation works. Generally speaking it's the vessels that are the conduits for either the positive forces or the negative.
Whether one takes a literal understanding of what the "devil" represents in scripture or a more figurative application, the devil is usually the representative of the negative forces as a whole not just a singular entity. I know the scriptures paint out a picture there is an actual devil running loose causing problems (which there may be) but there is another way of looking at it and understanding how these forces play out in this realm.
This is a cause and effect creation which means we are responsible for everything that happens on this planet because all things comes through our decisions and actions and desires, not Gods or the devils. I know that is a bit unorthodox but I'm not a fundamentalist anyways, my beliefs are not limited to one source so keep that in mind.
To answer your question more literal, if there was a "devil" masterfully disguising a negative action maybe we wouldn't know, does it really matter? maybe I don't see the point of the question it seems odd. If the devil were to disguise his position maybe we wouldn't know...until the final outcome anyways. But again, this idea that there is some renegade devil that causes all evil is very immature TBH and is not based on reality.
2. How do you tell the difference between god and the devil in general?
Well as I stated all beings are created from a singular Source and is an expression of that Reality, nothing is outside of that. However, each soul has been given the Divine spark which is the creative abilities and imagination and is free to become what it wants in creation and there are many, many souls and beings on all levels of creation way beyond this one alone. All these beings are channeling their own desires and wishes and they become the conduit of whatever force they want.
The question changes when you understand the nature of the soul and how the created worlds operate. Basically there is no distinction between the nature of the create soul and that of the Creator, only the perception the individual takes on in a limited state of conscious awareness.
3. Why is it that god had the ability to create the devil, but has not the ability destroy him?
Generally speaking souls are eternal once they are individualized. The soul cannot be destroyed even though there is a verse in the Bible that says it can be. That is untrue though, the actual soul cannot be destroyed just like energy cannot be destroyed. The ego can be destroyed and the bodies that souls inhabit in creation can be terminated but the actual soul is eternal. Once it is individualized/created that's it, it is final. That individualized soul gets to become whatever it wants and represent whatever force it wants, that is point of creation. God experiences everything through all channels, all vessels, the Creator has direct access to your channel of consciousness and experiences right through you, right through your own experiences. This is the investment the Creator has in all of this.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Well we know God works in mysterious ways.So I'm thinking the Devil works there also.The Devil is ( IN THE DETAILS. )Anyone got any ideas or where ( IN THE DETAILS ) is?
Friggin hilarious, thanks Deb8
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@Outplayz
Spiritual doesn't mean god. By spiritual i could mean two things. 1) a reality / phenomena we aren't aware of; 2) Same thing as 1 with addition to this reality / phenomena having intelligent / sentient entities in it. Aliens would be spiritual by my definition just as much as a god would be spiritual. If i say there is a spiritual reality that interacts with this reality and is why we have spiritual experiences i am referring to case 2. But in no way am i saying it is only a god that can interact with this reality in an unseen way. It could be god, gods or just aliens. It's unknown. I think it's arrogant to say nothing of either case 1 or 2 for sure doesn't exist. I would say there is enough evidence to at the very least suspect that there is a spiritual reality.Plus, just bc spirit entities, more on the lines of what you are saying, are man made doesn't mean they don't exist. We've thought of many things that have later turned out to be reality. Humans are capable of this foresight. But to be clear that's why i say agnostic atheist would be logical too. The atheist in that would mean, to me at least, that one could also be confident none of the man made religions have it right and/or there isn't one religion that has it all right.
Very good post BTW...
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@Outplayz
What the hell does this even mean? Only fools?
He labels himself some sort of "agnostic" and open to consideration and then makes statements like this... "It's really quite simple dude: Only fools believe something is true when they don't KNOW it's true. End of story." relating to Theistic beliefs.. assuming they "don't know" what is true which actually is in direct contrast to spirituality which is derived from observation.
But here is his true views and why he is trapped within that mindset and ideology.....
"I've been an atheist most of my life. And until just recently, I thought the majority of us were very sane, logical and intelligent, as opposed to theists whom are obviously delusional"
"How could atheists stoop to the considerably low intellectual level of theists?"
"then I refuse to call myself one, as I will not be seen as a delusional hypocrite by theists"
So no there is very little room for agnosticism or even a moderately neutral view. He's as hardcore atheist as it gets. Easy to see in his replies.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Hey did i ever mention that i once beat a cat with a stick?
Yes actually, about 5 to 6 times if I had to take a guess over the years between DDO and here, is there anything you would like to expand on about that incident? I mean you always bring it up how about we talk about it....what is it you wish to get out of bringing it up? most likely there are some repressed feelings you have. Wana play DR Phil?
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@Mopac
And what did I write that was haughty while you're at it...
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@Plisken
What internalized views would you be referring to?
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@ResurgetExFavilla
I think that Catholicism is like the tree grown by the seed planted by Christ, or the fire kept burning all of these years
Or the original cancer that spread misconceptions and falsities about the teachings of Jesus right from the get go. They can start with the development of the papacy, which misconstrued the principle oriented teachings of Jesus and turned them into an abomination along with their costly array of apparel and extravagant wealth. Those are the seeds that did not land in good soil, Catholicism represents very little of what Jesus actually taught IMO. Catholicism would be the equivalent of what Jesus opposed on earth. Which is why I would be confused as to why you would be a convert to that religious sect.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
I align a lot more with the mystic side of the Catholic intellectual tradition
Why just Catholicism in the mystic sense? they don't seem to possess that side of spirituality from what I have seen. What do they express in that regard? to me they seem like the epitome of religious dogma and not the true mystic, intellectual side of spirituality or Christianity and Jesus is so unlike Catholicism it's not even funny. The Protestants from what I have encountered are much more like the nature of the Gospels and I have spent a lot of time around religious people and Christians both Catholic and Protestant.
I am a convert, and am not at all a fan of Protestantism. Their nonsensical theology was all that I knew for a long, long time, and it really pushed me away from God
Can you give me an example of their nonsensical theology because IMO it is the Catholics that posses the most nonsensical interpretations of what Jesus taught? I've been around both Catholics and Protestants most of my life and the latter definitely has more freedom in the spiritual sense, less restricted to absurdities and misconceptions. Just my opinion of course, no insult to you personally.
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@Mopac
I don't expect you would, even though I explained it quite well. That is what fundamentalist/orthodox belief does.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
I actually didn't know you were a Catholic you didn't strike me as the spiritual (religious) type, but if I may ask what about that particular belief stimulates you spiritually? don't get me wrong I love the Gospels, I'm more interested in your choice of religious stances or choice or religious belief.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
Nonetheless, it is nothing short of fascinating that being a mindless, smiling drone, unable to ponder the complex, often terrifying facets of life, has a better chance of survival than a well-educated realist.
TBH you kinda ruined the topic with the last comment. Considering the mind is more machine like by nature one can know suffering and one can know happiness and all that in between. So why is the positive thinker the mindless drone and not the worrier? what makes one better than the other when both are content being experienced through the mind.
I would most certainly fall within the category of someone who tends to focus and be more attentive to negative thinking but I have learned the nature of the mind and what thoughts are and what they are capable of doing. I don't blame anyone who is able to prioritize the content within their mind and actually envy the mindless happy drone. What makes you think the positive thinker is unable to ponder the complex or that they are not realists? who is really the realist? the one who lets negativity bring down their morale and control their potential or the one that knows whatever thoughts and mindset they entertain is what their outcome will be and what they will experience....both negative thoughts and positive are chosen, even if a person is unaware of it because as I said the mind is a machine it will regurgitate what you allow it to.
Negativity will wear on ones consciousness if it becomes something out of proportion (die earlier) and this is the problem with that nature of thinking anyways, it develops power to control the individual and depletes the person so what is so "realistic" about that? one can be a realist and at the same time control the content of the mind and what it produces. A person can weigh the negative aspects of life and not be overcome by them by being aware of what the mind is producing and the nature of thought.
You can view the mind in many ways to get the point across, how about like a weapon or a gun? you can use the gun for both positive and negative things such as providing for oneself or using it to harm people or even the self. The mind is the same way because it is not an entity but a tool, a storage area where you store whatever content you wish to. In this sense, it is imperative the user control the content within.
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@Mopac
I would never refer to God as the prime eternal consciousness. That is far too limiting. Besides that, we Orthodox do not use this understanding.
That is very strange TBH, conscious awareness is not limited by anything other than forms and bodies in creation. As we discussed before there is no "Ultimate Reality" without there first being an awareness or eternal/ultimate consciousness (God) observing it. Can you answer how one does not come before the other, how can any ultimate reality exist without a Prime Observer? this is the problem with fundamentalists and orthodoxy, they are afraid to let go of terms and ideas and accept others that explain a larger picture even though there are more precise terms and ideas that articulate further on the term.
Did you know religions have different terms and names for the same reality? I can give you some examples of course if you are interested. The names and terms are irrelevant to the meanings.
The proper definition of God in English woulld either be The Supreme Being or The Ultimate Reality. They mean the same thing if understood correctly.
What on earth do you think an Ultimate Reality would be if not an eternal consciousness... a reality where observation is as it truly exists apart from creation? what else could it be? that's what you're not getting or are avoiding. Mr. Ultimate Reality doesn't even know what that means and tells others if they are ignorant of it they are deluded and not confessing the truth lol, yet here you are doing the same thing.
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@ethang5
Only two?? I'll pick three from three different categories....Mhykiel,(Theist) Outplayz (agnostic) and 3RU7AL (atheist), more so Outplayz when he's not policing moderators (JK)...hard not to pick my fav members though, perhaps they are the same as my fav posters (minus a few).
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@3RU7AL
That's a pretty cool idea. I actually bought the movie, but a three pack or three-in-one set with the old Road Warrior and Thunder Dome. Been thinking about watching it again because sometimes movies grow on ya, or they are better the second time you watch them. I do like "sepia" though lol.
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@Mopac
Yes Brahman would be their version of what you call the Ultimate Reality.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
But these free Christian women you speak of were not invented back then.
I explained my position quite clearly. I don't know what you mean by "invented" though, you mean they were suppressed? I agreed with that but I explained why and why it was common for the male role to dominate culture. That included scriptural texts, but this is why I added my second post. Behind all these men was a beautiful women rubbing their backs while they were meticulously jotting down spiritual writings lol. Yes the female role was certainly not the dominant gender throughout history, but do they need to be?
The bible writers were a certain type of people. That im sure of.No that sound silly.
Perhaps spiritual type people? TBH religions and spiritual texts are based on individual and collective observation/experiences. This is then collectively agreed upon and recorded for our convenience. But make no mistake about it, every ancient text will reflect its own culture to a degree we cannot escape that. And it was common for men to have control over every genre on life back then.
But above everything it seems strange that the bible was some how writen with what life in general was like back then in mind.That shouldn't play any part really should it.
Well there are many things within scriptures brother. You have culture, tradition, opinions, varying experiences ect ect but you also have universal spiritual principles which create the spiritual backdrop or foundation for the soul to connect with. All in all religions are a source that individuals can relate to and learn from. But each soul was meant to learn and experience for itself, sources are just foundations for learning.
It seems like the bible was written without so called knowledge of todays events.It's like the bible was written without any knowledge whatsoever of June the 18th 3759.
But spiritual truths are universal and they are objective. That means no matter what age they were recorded they are always relevant in the now. I'm not making the claim everything within all religious texts are legit no, that is not my position. My spirituality and experience is not dependent on the perfection of the Bible or any religious source for that matter. Rather I learn from and apply what is useful, discard what is not. Spirituality is no different than learning any other thing...trial and error.
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@keithprosser
The Hindu have the nice idea that the gods are part of creation and not even they know where they came from.
Well geeze, what am I mincemeat? I've been explaining how creation works for awhile now. Perhaps you either ignore my posts or just shuck them off because you have the preconceived idea that all Theists are delusional. Oh excuse me, partially delusional my bad.
However, this is only partially correct. Some gods do and some don't they actually are not ignorant of it there are gods that do know the order of creation because there are different levels and multiverses. You have several divisions of creation and several overlords that govern those areas and just like the Bruce Lee movie Game of Death there is a hierarchy and that includes ability and knowledge. The game is that they enjoy playing the role of God and that is their existence and in return many souls love them unconditionally. Like any other being, they too love that relation. It is what life is, the only other option is to exist as One reality where there is no creation, no duality, no separation or contrast and no individual experience.
All in all there is only a single Source out of which all originates, that is the final Godhead or what Mopac calls the "Ultimate Reality".
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@secularmerlin
I'm not sure how much difference it would make to deb and myself but it may have made a rather large difference to millions of people indoctrinated into misogynistic abrahamic religions throughout history.
That could be considered a rather one-sided opinion considering the majority of the Christian population are women who are free to believe as they wish. I admitted it was likely that the female role was suppressed and I explain everything in my post. It's not specific to Abrahamic religions it was how life was in general.
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@secularmerlin
I once told you of some experiences I had that at the time I thought were spiritual in nature. You declared that my problem was that I had not experienced genuine spiritual happenings.
That is nothing of what I said, actually not at all. We were discussing the difference between legit experiences in spirituality vs absurd ideas and while some experiences should be taken serious and others not so much and both of those we discussed not just ones I thought were flaky. I was trying to help you sort out why we don't just accept some things and not others. You asked me about your experiences and I gave you my opinions based on what you said. Nowhere did I reject all of your experiences only the things that you actually admitted yourself you thought were silly, which is why I had asked if you were being sarcastic. And I expanded on why they were silly and why some of your other experiences were legit. For example I agreed you could communicate with trees but only on a certain level. Because trees are limited by their physiology they don't have the dynamics of communication as say a soul or a human. But since they do in fact have awareness, you can tune into their frequency much like I explained in this topic. You don't remember none of that? I did if fact say some of your experiences were genuine....
While I agree with that assessment it highlights the problem with your evidence. How on earth can anyone possibly demonstrate that their spiritual experiences were more real then those I experienced for myself?
Again, you misunderstood the discussion or are only focused on one portion of it. You not remember me encouraging your experience with trees and why that was possible?You brought to me some experiences you've had and I tried to help you decipher those experiences and give you a more stable way of looking at it since you now view those experiences as something that was just in your head, you yourself abandoned them not me! Yes, spirituality can get weird just like anything else really that is why we have each other and why we have sources to help balance things out. It is not because spirituality is not legit, but there are many factors that get in the way and this is why spirituality is a cultivation. It's not something you get or have and you have it all. No way, it's a genuine progression where you learn through trial and error. Your problem currently, is that you just dropped everything and gave up. That is not the answer.
Apparently you didn't like the idea of me agreeing with some experiences and not others. But then again why the heck did you ever message me? at least when making claims publicly make sure you say what was actually said. I never said none of your experiences were real, why are you making it out that way? I was helping you define your experiences and use what was useful and discard what was not. If you don't like anyone helping you in that way don't bring it up.
You might have gotten further ifvypu had argued that I had deluded myself into doubting a genuine experience than to argue that I should just have your sort of spiritual experiences. Probably not much further but an inch is an inch after all.
And this helps me to know I should avoid further PM's with you. I was very respectful and trying to help you find your way and never did I say you should only experience what I have why would you even say that? You got offended because I wouldn't agree with everything you claimed to have encountered but next time perhaps you should think twice before messaging someone to have a discussion. Discussion goes two ways and TBH you are confusing to talk to, I gave you a fair opinion about what we discussed. Either you want to hear or you don't, I was honest with you about what is worth pursuing and what is not and you seem to get really irritated by that. But why? you were coming to me to lay out your history then you get annoyed because even in spirituality you things that are legit and things that are not. This takes learning through application and observation and years of experience.
No, not everything we read or hear is actual, this is why I always promote the individual get involved with as many things that are applicable that are possible. Sorry to burst your bubble, but even within spirituality you will have to learn what is correct and what is not including MYSELF. I gave you my opinions on the matters you explained sorry if you got the idea I was saying only my experiences count. I go out of my way in these forums to make sure everyone knows I'm an omnist, that means I examine all forms of spirituality not just one form or one claim and so no one can blame me for what you wrote above. I say the exact opposite of that, everyone has their own spirituality and their own experiences and I endorse a wide range of Theistic knowledge but there is also an objective reality. Since we do in fact deal with five layers that cover the soul including the mind and emotions.....we have to learn what is actual and what is not. It's just a part of the journey, it is no different with me than it is for you. I had to learn ten times over, I'm not just a preacher I'm a learner before anything else. I've also been applying spiritual principles since I was a young man on my own accord. Nothing has been handed to me I've had to work for and learn everything I know and this includes spirituality, nobody has spoon fed me anything I have had to learn the hard way in every aspect of life. I love PM's, but I'm not going to tickle your ears when you want my opinion I'm going to just give it to you like it is.
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@Mopac
I'm not sure I would call The Ultimate Reality a state of consciousness.
Did you know that you are a miniature version of the Ultimate reality (Creator)? the Creator is the Ultimate version of yourself, you reflect a version or type of the Ultimate. Everything you experience as reality, is first because you are conscious/aware of it. Likewise everything the Ultimate reality experiences is because It was first conscious of it and that is how anything can be known at all or experienced at all. To be known is to observe and observation cannot exist without consciousness, that is what it means to know or experience.
It is basically the Ultimate observation point, you are a teeny tiny version of that observation point you come right out of the heart of God and can be nothing else. You think you vanish when your physical body dies but not so, the physical form and body does but consciousness can neither be created or destroyed. Energy exists because first awareness exists, energy is present with conscious activity and why it acts as intelligence.
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