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@Timid8967
It is not real. Just like god is not real.
You can hold on to the ridiculous assertion that God does not exist, but its all based upon faulty reasoning. So while you parade around the forum claiming it to others who have put the time and thought in, it's not very convincing because you have no real basis to make the claim, at least not a legit one.
Sin is something that some religious people care about. It is not real.
Remember we talked about the distinction between God's existence and dogma? religious propositions and God's existence are two separate concerns. So you make a good point here, only your argument is moot.... "Sin is not real because God is not real"....lol
You have no way to determine or prove that God does not exist, so you have no basis to claim anything about the rest of it.
yet it is not clear whether you think god is just a force or a cause of the creation.
He used the term Creator, which is pretty clear.
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@Timid8967
how can god care about us, if god does not exist. On the other hand, if hypothetically god did exist, how would you know he cares for you? Isn't suffering proof that god does not care for us? if god did not put us to live a happy life or to avoid being genocided, why do you think god put us here?
I went over much of this in our discussion you seem to have abandoned, so unfortunately you're going to be another member who receives explanations that deal with your problems just to turn around and repeat them. That's what makes this forum and many of its members a waste of time.
To maintain intellectual integrity means to follow the logic through, and if it works then we abandon our previous faulty logic and line of reasoning.
Freewill is a myth. Everything is determined. Cause and effect.
Cause and effect and freewill are not in contrast to one another. Nothing is determined until there is first a cause, the cause is always a spontaneous event in relation to your choices. "Free" will though might not be the most accurate terminology because while we are allowed to choose whatever we want, there are consequences for each choice so our choices (cause) effect our future experiences. I like to simply call it our own will.
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Not everything has to be answered by the Bible, there's many other Holy Books folks. There's also common sense, if someone answers a question that seems in conflict with what the Bible portrays it doesn't mean the answer is not legit. And actually nowhere in the OP does it mention the Bible at all.
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@sadolite
Is it a sin to believe god doesn't control outcome?
No, beliefs are not sins (talking strictly from a spiritual point of view without dogma attached). Your actions on the other hand are what you need to be acutely aware of. And that's only because they affect your life and your future experiences. But this isn't Gods doing, it is yours.
I believe the universe and everything in it was created by an intelligent force
That sounds like a reasonable and intelligent conclusion.
those who believe in creation call that force God. I see 0 evidence that god controls outcome for anyone or anything.
I see no problem with that way of thinking.
I do not wish to debate gods existence. You either believe of a creators existence or you don't.
I understand, thank God for people like you lol. I on the other hand lack such self control on this issue.
I seriously doubt god cares about my stupid petty first world problems and why would he?
God cares about what you care about in the sense that they are one and the same, likewise what you don't care about God doesn't care about. Everything you experience God experiences through you, when you decide to care about something then your world changes to reflect it, depending on how much you care. There is no real distinction between your own life's experiences and what God observes.
God doesn't even care about mass genocide. Yep, I believe in the creator but I don't believe the creator controls outcome of anything other than his initial creation of everything. God already knows the outcome based on the inherent chance of probability and chaos of his creation. That some things will do this and some things will do that, some things will be effected by this and some things will be effected by that, and all things that exists will be effected by something based on where they are and the moment in time that they are there.
Well you don't want to go through life with such a nonchalant attitude about creation, because in reality you are very much connected to it and you are very much a part of God, and God in you. What you're saying has some truth to it but you don't want that to rob you of the significance of having God within you as well as all around you...You don't want to get hung up on thinking that there is no reason for your existence and there is no point in caring or thinking God cares or doesn't, or that God created all this and left you high and dry. You can if you want to, you can give up and it wouldn't really matter to anyone because your spiritual journey is only relevant to you. But that's what makes it very important to you as well, because you have a spiritual path ahead of you and it is for your benefit alone you learn everything you can about that aspect of yourself.
Stop looking at God in relation to the world but instead try looking at how God is relevant to you.
When you leave this physical body and physical world, you have ahead of you a very long journey of learning about God and learning about yourself and what that means. But it starts now, creation wasn't set up just for you to appear on earth and then vanish, not even close, this is only one little experience on one little planet. You are an eternal presence and you have the power to change not just yourself but worlds in front of you. This is a stepping stone where you're just getting your foot in the door so don't be so short sighted about life.
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@Lemming
That is a great post Lemming, very thoughtful and wise. Most people in this world are simply too stupid and short sighted to understand something like prayer, and even less effective prayer. There's an equation to the moving of energy in our favor, not just any dummy can have access to such things. Outside of that, Karma plays a huge and dynamic role in what takes place on earth, and prayer will not always be sufficient in circumventing that reality.
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@Timid8967
there is evil all of the world so this seems to be demonstrate that a god who is all powerful and all loving does not exist.
Evil will always exist in a dualistic environment. The Creator is not one thing or another, all of creation exists within God and all things are experienced through God. God exists as sure as you and I exist.
However there are many parallel universe and each plane has a specific nature to it. Of course the physical world is the wild wild west of creation where you see the full swing of duality and it is meant to be that way for the experience. While God doesn't create your actions you are free to choose them. Many of the souls that inhabit this planet are of low awareness and often times of poor character and so there's a lot of weird shyt that goes on, but there are much more elevated places within creation. So for now, just don't lose hope because you observe evil here, just know that this world was created as a means to experience creation at its lowest and weakest point. Souls come here to learn hard lessons and see where they stand amongst the higher worlds of God.
there are multiple religions which seems to indicate that there is not simply either one god or one god who can unite people who believe. each religion seems to have a deity whose people alone have the key to understanding.
I'm not fully understanding this, perhaps it is poorly worded but just so you know I'm an Omnist regarding religion though my background was primarily Christian. So I study all forms of spirituality and religious knowledge. I don't necessarily believe in all religions or their claims but I understand that each source has good insights as well as information that can be discarded.
Having said that, there are countless societies that exist outside the physical world and they all have their own places within the created worlds, and souls here are free to experience them and learn from them. Some are kingdoms with their own rulers, but as you study spirituality on earth
people are born without limbs - if god was omnicient and all powerful - why does he let this happen?
In this world everything is ruled by cause and effect, God doesn't sit around making all these things occur. If you're not familiar with Karma, you should do a bit of research about it and maybe it will give you a greater perspective of why this world is the way it is. Many people avoid such a principle but it reflects reality and explains quite easily why there are misfortunes in this life. It's not unfair at all because it is based upon the very behaviors, actions and lifestyles of every soul and remember we are here to simply learn from our mistakes. No one should be judged and everyone is on a temporal path here. We are all in this together. Some things may appear disturbing, but you have no way to see the larger picture so you have to be aware of the dynamics involved.
if god is none of these things but simply made the world - why? what purpose is there for a god to make a world and then disapear without leaving specific clues for people to understand with "common sense"? Sorry - the evidence against god is very strong. the evidence for god is weak.
God never disappears, and the best advice I can share with you on this one is that God experiences everything right through you. Whatever anybody experiences God experiences, this is the investment God has in this. God gets to experience the beauty and the sorrow of each life. And God does not just sit back and judge that but is very much apart of it as one who observes all things through each person. Ironically, we believe God to be some distant thing or person way out there somewhere who has no idea what we go through lol, meanwhile God is sitting in your seat and you are unaware of it.
to believe in the imaginary person of god without a purpose to do so - achieves nothing. Say for the sake of your argument you are correct. Say god did make the world using evolution. why?
Because there is always a process of creating something from nothing, and we observe that process by what we learn from our universe in action. Evolution is simply a process by which things are brought into existence.
do you think god wants us to believe in him?
It doesn't matter to God, it matter to you because you're in full control of your own input and output. Your input and output control what you experience. There is more to achieve than you every thought possible, but your advancement hinges on your own thoughts and beliefs.
Your beliefs are like your gas in your own vehicle, depending on how much you have in the tank is how far you will go. It can be compared to learning, your own learning will reflect how much you achieve.
you don't believe in the christian god. Im not sure what god you do believe in.
The Christian Kingdom has its own place within creation but it's not the only Kingdom or place, it is one out of endless realities. I very much believe in it, I was raised by it and spent many years of my life applying it and understanding it. If any one has any say in it it's me because I've paid my dues and I've put in the time. But....the beauty of creation is in its variations. Such variations all fit into the same massive reality we call creation. The Christian heaven is actually located on one planet, it has its own Ruler, King, laws, principles and a wide range of its own peoples. If you were to visit that Kingdom you would be quite surprised and probably very humbled.
I believe in a singular Reality I would call God (the Foundation or Platform), but out of this singular Reality many other gods are placed within many universes as incarnated entities that rule parts of creation and each soul journeys throughout all these locations and places.
In this concept both monotheism and polytheism are absolutely compatible. The Platform has many, many expressions of Itself and God creates endlessly as a means for each being to have access to not just one or two experiences but infinite options.
Do you believe in heaven or hell? if not - then what is the purpose and how is it relevant to my life. Do you think atheists go to heaven or to hell? this is why i see it as nonsense. it is nonsense because there does not seem to be a point - not a valid one anyway.
Creation is driven by Karma, and Karma is based upon actions not beliefs. So the misconception that souls are tortured in hell for eternity because of their beliefs is BS. Hell is simply a prison in the astral plane, it serves the very same purpose as our prisons on earth. Buddhism for example goes into great detail about hell (prison), and souls sentences in such a place are congruent with their crimes they commit.
if religion is not about fear - then what is it about?
Religions are the observations of man regarding their interpretations of creation and or God. I don't know why people have this idea that it is about fear, it simply makes no sense to make that assertion. Fear regarding spirituality is usually avoided in principle, because fear as it controls people is not a useful function. Most religious sources teach about fear and help you understand how to not let it control your life and choices.
All the good insights given throughout the history of religions you can simply leave it or utilize it, knowing that you don't have to accept everything you hear, just information that resonates with you so you can apply that knowledge to your data base or apply it to yourself. You are very much apart of God whether you know that or not, that is your true origins and you have as much say about God as any religious source. The only difference is someone may have more understanding than you do, which is why it's always good practice to learn from the wise.
if god is going to love us - no matter what - then why does it matter whether we believe or not - or question his existence or not. and how does that relate to truth?
Your beliefs reflect your future experiences. You can believe or disbelieve and it wouldn't matter to your Creator in terms of what you mean to God. But you have a spiritual journey ahead of you and it is for your benefit alone you learn everything you can about that aspect of yourself. To stay in the dark is to walk in the dark, of course by dark I simply mean ignorance. You don't want to remain ignorant about God and your spiritual journey because it is your level of knowledge and application that will propel you into greater experiences. The longer you delay that the longer you resist moving forward.
Spirituality is on different than any other learning curve, the more you know the more you can do. The more you learn the more you can apply, and the more you can apply the more experience you can add to yourself. God's love though, is irrelevant to whatever you choose to do.
truth is what? I say the closest thing to reality - from my subjective point of view - or should it be from an objective point of view? Idk. This has been an interesting discussion.
Truth is certainly the closest thing to reality, but your perception of reality influences what you believe truth to be. If God exists, and what I'm saying to you is true you will never know it because you're walking around with your head in the clouds. Open yourself up, trust that I have something useful for you to learn from, and no one is asking that you be naive or gullible but at some point if you wish to advance towards what is true you can't allow some worthless ideology like atheism to get in your way. You have to be willing to discard that at all costs to follow truth, and believe me when I say that such an ideology is detrimental to your advancement. Not because you are hated or being punished rather because you are what permits or rejects that growth simply by what you accept.
Spirituality is both subjective and objective meaning that it relates to you personally from your perspective as well as there are objective truths because it exists as an actuality not an idea or some figment of the imagination. While you have the freedom to express your spirituality in any way you find acceptable, there is also an objective base to learn from.
I hope this helps us understand one another a bit more, although I don't really want to get too far off track before we see eye to eye on God's existence. As we work to clear that obstacle we can get more into details. I would say though, that what religions put forth is irrelevant to whether or not God exists. Just make sure you take your time and read fully what I'm writing and you will see that everything should make sense. The dynamics that are involved is what makes your attention to what I'm saying important but really there is a simplicity to all this as well.
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@Timid8967
I'll get to the rest of your questions today soon, thanks for being a good sport. Just be open minded about it so we can learn from each other. I do appreciate you not getting nasty or rude, that's not very common here in the religion forum.
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@Timid8967
And where is this spiritual sense? That is an elusive concept.
In terms of human experience it's certainly not elusive and actually quite common, but rather forsaken. You are a spiritual being and that is your true nature. You allow your physical perception to rule your observations, so what you experience will be at the physical layer only.
Prove it. It seems to me the reason argue about gods existence and characteristics is theoretical and philosophical.
Yes at one level it is, I mean there's the intellect and logic where we want to understand God through the mind sure. Arguing and observation/experience are two distinct things. If we're simply arguing over whether God exists we are entertaining only one aspect of our experience, to say that only one aspect occurs is to deny reality. Spiritual experience overshadows any other topic by far. So we have the knowledge about God, but that knowledge comes from experience and observation. It's not just about ideas, concepts and imagination but more so about a Reality that exists that we can learn from.
To say we can experience god through some other channel is difficult to conceive. Give an example.
Imagine yourself as a radio receiver where you can pick up and extract various channels of radio waves. Now imagine that the physical frequency is only but one channel of reception. Your body would represent the radio, your attention would represent the channels but your consciousness would be what could experience and hear each channel tuned in to. Your consciousness is not restricted to just the physical channel but as long as your attention is squarely tuned into that frequency that is all you will notice. Your physical sense perception is compatible with primarily the physical channel, however your conscious perception is free to pick up on any emitted frequency as you tune into such channel.
How is it common sense? Many theists reject evolution. Common sense means it is universal.
Perhaps reread that, I was referring to the fact that for processes to occur, there must first be awareness (intelligence). Processes are associated with thought and mind, agency is a prerequisite for producing a product. For there to be construction, there must be a constructor. For there to be a production, there must be a producer. For there to be a building there must be a builder. For there to be creation, there must be a Creator. Things don't just occur for the hell of it, things don't build themselves into existence, bricks don't lay themselves into a house....blueprints don't print themselves onto paper, a universe doesn't create itself into being. Processes don't just begin to happen and produce things as if they had minds, inanimate forces don't just evolve things into existence as if they knew what they were doing. This is common sense, for intelligent processes to occur there must first be agency, thought and mind. When we see a product whether that be on earth or within our universe we know there was a producer.
I will say this though, that evolution is touted as an atheistic concept so in all actuality the battle is not so much between evolution and Theism but materialism (or atheism) and Theism. If evolution was more understood as a process that reflects intelligence and intelligence as a means to deliver products then there might not be such contempt for the process.
I don't understand your distinction between perfection and products.
Again, perhaps reread what I wrote. The products within the universe don't need to be perfect, it just needs to work. So we are not looking to judge the "design" per say, rather the product of what is occurring.
Surely that depends upon what you mean by perfection? What is your measure of perfection? Why can't death or flaws be part of that?
The only quality I mean by perfection here is that it's not subject to physical change, death or alteration caused by any physical obstruction or manipulation. Death and flaws are usually seen as imperfection. In contrast consciousness (soul) is unaffected by physical change. That's all I meant by perfection.
All the "flaws" we know of are related to physical causes then we observe the physical effect (diseases, malfunctions, mutations, death ect ect) and typically that is understood as an imperfect category, In all honesty I'm not sure what your objection is. Consciousness or soul does not have this problem though because they exist independent of the material world hence there is no imperfection or alteration that it is subject to.
Again, I am not convinced that humanity has a higher state of awareness. Yes, from our perspective we do, but that is completely andromorphiccentric. It may be that humanity is actually a lesser evolved creature - less secure - thus needing to create a world to make us feel secure and safe. Animals have no need of this - because they are fundamentally more secure than us - and do not feel the same insecurities. Possibly because they have evolved past this.
As long as you accept this as speculation there's not much that needs to be said here. I don't really find the need to justify reality against all your speculations unless they present a legit objection. If we take Occam's Razor seriously, then human experience reflects what it is they experience.
science is science. I worry more about how it hijacked by lefties and righties that by religious or atheists to their ends. Apart from that I really don't understand your point. what do you mean about speculation and spirituality? Spirituality is entirely speculation. How does one observe spirituality? What is spirituality?
Spirituality is the practical, applicable and observable study of that which transcends the physical sense perception. It is not speculation at all, it is its own science. Anything that indeed exists, should be by definition that which can be experienced....and spirituality as we discussed, runs parallel to the physical channel of experience. It is both independent of the material world and yet very much observable.
Science studies the natural world and all that which falls within the category of physical phenomenon. Spirituality is the study of spiritual phenomenon, it is the method of study that reaches beyond the limits of science.
I don't understand what you are saying. What belief have I accepted that is not a fact?
Any view that accepts that God does not exist.
I have seen no evidence for the existence of god.
Go back and read post #23
in fact the evidence against god is overwhelming.
Not in the slightest, only amongst a mind full of strawman ideas about God and poor understanding. You seem to have gone off on a tangent below that is not relevant at this time. I'll address the questions but I'll end this response here for now so we don't begin to get too far off track and are no longer able to follow one another.
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@Timid8967
To believe in what you cannot see or touch is not to difficult. We cannot see wind or air, yet we know it is there. We can not see the smells about us - but we know it is real because our senses pick it up. This is one thing. Yet there is a significant difference between knowing something is invisible and there and with something we "believe" is invisible and "there" when there is nothing that enlightens our senses to their existence. god is for the most part - a philosophical idea. this is why it gets discussed so much and why no one ever really can define god. god is elusive in that sense.
You have one part here right, only disregard the other part. You're right that God eludes the physical senses because of the nature of God, as well as the nature of spirituality. But God does not evade the conscious nature of man, hence the overwhelming study of transcendental experience....or you may refer to it as spiritual experience. To disregard that is to disregard a massive portion of human experience. I have a relevant topic that you may find interesting to think about.
To put it bluntly, God is not just a philosophical idea, but a Reality any soul can learn and experience from through many channels of awareness. Albeit, these channels of awareness may be distinct from the physical experience.
you talk about god or a creator. well that is fine. yet different religious positions although holding that god is the creator do not even agree on this - save and except somehow in the distant past - (and let us be clear - only religions from an arabian background think this - other religions have much more divergent positions - ) it was created by god. Created even in this sense is not design. yes - fundamentalist christians say god made and designed everything. Yet most other christians suggest God made - the means to make the universe - but left the means to determine how the design would turn out. in some cases the difference between the evolutionist and the theistic evolutionist is no different except for the original cause. god or something else.
I don't invoke the design hypothesis, rather function. Design typically gets one to focus on perfection while the other the focus is more on the products within the universe. If we focus on perfection we lose sight of the obvious, that the universe is created through a succession of intelligent processes. Yes, I'm a proponent of Theistic evolution as a process that is specifically tailored to creationism. I don't know why evolution as a process has been touted so long as a materialistic event but I'd like to bring awareness to the reality that for processes to occur, there must fist be awareness, thought or intelligence (mind). Why? because it's a common sense observation.
There is no need for perfection here, because that suggests there could be absolutely no flaws, death or change and exempt from decay of substance. And that would contradict the reason for a creating a physical universe to begin with. The physical experience was meant to be temporal, subject to change and adjustments and a universe that was meant to appear and disappear. The only perfection that exists, or better put, a deathless reality is only relevant to consciousness or soul....the state of existence that is natural to God.
i do find it ironic that animals do not seem to worship god or have any indication of a worship or religious system. so i do wonder about whether religion is a primitive notion or simply a primitive human phenomenon. Hence why link it with superstition. it requires intelligent thought - hence philosophical. animals do not concern themselves with where they come from or where they will go. They don't have the same set of emotional responses that humans have - given their trajectory of human evolution.
Humans possess the highest state of awareness, we can articulate and express ourselves in more ways than animals. You're right, expression of thought and mind would be inherent to us rather than animals. I fail to see a real objection here, it doesn't work in your favor. Animals are subject to their anatomy, they have not the ability to show you what they think and feel in an intellectual or philosophical way, so what? They were created to experience this world in a primitive way. Humans have a higher range of conscious reception, a higher range of communication, a higher range of awareness and so we have a wider range of what we can experience and articulate.
yet once the brain starts to philosophise about anything and wants to know how the world works it is going to start speculating. This is life. yet, entire portions of humanity - get things wrong. and this - like the earth being the center of the world is an example. humans have got it wrong. and scientists have proven this.
Science is a neutral study, it doesn't belong to atheists or materialists. We don't need speculation for spirituality, it is acknowledged as observation not assumption. Before we start introducing claims, just make sure they are claims that I have made here.
the basic fact that god cannot be proved or disproved is an essential aspect of this - it is a purely philosophical concept - which has various advocates around the world and throughout history. yet, fundamentally flawed at every junction.
The only thing useful in terms of showing that God cannot be disproved is for you to see that you have accepted a belief that is not a fact, even fictional. Creation is not a flawed proposition in any way period, saying it doesn't make it so and actually is in alignment with the evidence. You have not provided any rationale for me to consider that it is.
Hence to believe to believe in a creator as a person is to believe in a superstition. It will lead inevitably to nonsense in progress.
Which is? what nonsense have I proposed?
It will not be following the truth. It will in fact be allowing our emotions and fear to determine how humanity will progress in this universe both physically and intellectually. Hope that helps.
Fear has no place in determining the origins of our existence, this is a philosophical and intellectual exercise to determine what is true and most accurate about our world. Someone told you that, perhaps you believe it. But I'm here to tell you this has nothing to do with what I feel or want. Beyond that, as I pointed out, human experience is rife full of observation from a spiritual standpoint. Remember, that when you avoid that factor you avoid the truth as it exists in our world.
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@Yassine
Just out of curiosity, what issue would you take with evolution being compatible with creationism? Meaning evolution as a creative procession of events of evolving things into existence through that process? your argument may be the same perhaps but I was interested what you think about evolution being presented not as a natural process but a creative process.
Since we know nothing is poofed into existence, God must have a process to take nothing but energy and element and create form out of those materials. If you shun the idea that God uses evolution to generate species on earth, how do you propose that God manifests creatures into existence including the physical body we call humanoid to become what they are?
Evolution is typically assumed to be a purely materialistic process I'm aware of that....and that the study of evolution has been proposed by atheistic doofuses as a means to show there's no need for a God but honestly, I always associate intelligent processes with a Creator, hence I have no real objection with evolution as a means to create something from nothing, or form from the formless. We clearly see there is a succession of processes that are involved to manifest the existence of our universe, this would indicate the same is true for species to exist.
Then again, I'm not a Biblical literalist so the creation story in Genesis is not what I consider a literal event.
Just know I'm not presenting this as an argument to your position, I'm just willing to hear what you have to say on the matter.
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@ludofl3x
I hold the position that there's no evidence of a creator, not that the universe exists without one.
Lol
I don't accept that processes are inherently intelligent
That's not my problem, then you have to account for why they produce intelligence, act intelligent and are capable of producing things as if they had know-how.
and I make no claims that inanimate forces can product productions of awareness
You don't have to make that claim, they do.
You have to do the work
Lol, riiiggght. Like I said, while you sit back and do nothing to support your assertions.
I'm sorry, that's just how it works. You say "there's a dinosaur in my yard,"
Perhaps another word you don't understand, look up correlation....indication. (Evidence).
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@ludofl3x
@Timid8967
There's two claims being made not one. Only one of those claims correlates with the "evidence". You have our universe and the products thereof and then you have interpretations as to why our universe exists and why processes occur. Materialism and atheism are just one of those options whether they are believed to be legit options or not, it's not a default position. Those interpretations as to why the universe exists may be weak or strong and still that's up to the holder to believe and support. The reasoning behind such opinions is what makes them a strong or weak options.
When you have processes that occur that correlate with intelligence or thought, meaning by what they produce and the results thereof, then there is sufficient reasoning and logic to correlate those products with intelligence. That's how evidence works. Evidence is defined as...
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."
"an outward sign : INDICATION"
"something that furnishes proof : TESTIMONY"
"that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof."
"something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign:"
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@ludofl3x
Because there's no evidence to support any creator, is that enough reason not to believe it?
That's your interpretation but it's simply not true. As we've discussed before, atheists lack of knowledge of how evidence is defined or what evidence consists of is the first problem. The indication that the universe is a product of intelligence is unavoidable, rendering materialism lacking the proper evidence to support it. Atheism is not a default position or some worldview that has evidence to support it, since there's no evidence to support the claim that God does not exist materialism is simply an option not a fact. It is an interpretation, and being so I find it to be a weak one at that.
We've had these discussions though, in depth. You basically disregard our conversations and start back at zero ("there's no evidence"), it's like talking to a kid. I'm not interested in you disregarding my insights, that's why I'm asking Timid. Perhaps he has some decent evaluations or convincing answers. Like you, I may have to teach him what evidence means, hopefully that won't happen.
To hold the position that the universe exists without a Creator, is to accept that intelligent processes occur all on their own and inanimate forces can produce productions of awareness, without thought or mind. You need to support those assertions, not accept them and then turn around and claim there's no evidence to show that they are. Then you expect us to do all the work while you sit back and do nothing.
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@zedvictor4
GOD, fucked a virgin
This is a perfect example why lunatics should never read scripture. Actually, I never even knew anybody ever thought this until I joined forums like these and found out that there are some sick weirdos out there.
You do know there was never any sexual intercourse involved in the tale, as well as it takes two physical bodies to have sex right? it reveals an insincere rendering of the texts.....so, either you have no fcking clue what contents are in the Bible or you're just being stupid? the whole point of the story was that it was to be a miraculous conception, not a rape case dypshyt. The other demented freak that went around the forum saying this was Bulproof, of course he's been banned for his sick behavior.
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@Timid8967
Fraud! to believe in any gods - is nonsense.
I see atheists make this statement a lot, but they never give a convincing reason why so, well other than they believe God is imaginary and or religious thought is stupid. And while that's their opinion there isn't any real objective truth or rationale behind it. Because, you do realize that Theists find atheists and materialists beliefs nonsense right? Well I could actually give you some real reasons to think it is stupid to hold such ridiculous beliefs.
Without touching on religion, could you give me a small list of reasons why you think believing in a Creator is nonsense? the reason I ask that you not touch on religion is because not everyone accepts the same dogma as it's also irrelevant to whether God exists or not, and this will force you to evaluate the core reason people think God exists. I also am curious about your own reasoning to make such an outspoken claim, with such a claim you must have some solid logic behind it.
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@Theweakeredge
Jesus will forgive ALL SINS
Why wouldn't he? what would Jesus have to lose? with such a high standard to be able to even get into heaven why would Jesus hold an eternal grudge for a soul who genuinely repented? you seem to think asking for forgiveness means everybody that asks may then live as they want, that's where you reveal your ignorance about scripture. And I guess you never took note of Matthew 7....
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock
If every man that said a few words to Jesus to get into heaven and does so why does Jesus then reject them in the above passage? answer: because they did not meet the requirements Jesus laid out in his teachings.
If I raped your sister or mother and went to prison for 30 or 50 years, was then released and upon leaving I contacted you and asked for your forgiveness does that mean I never faced consequences for what I did? people ask God to forgive them all the time while they face penalties for their crimes, it is well known that prisoners find God in jail, should God not forgive them while they pay for their crimes and change their ways?
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@Theweakeredge
That's all mythery
lol.
You have no idea what you're talking about
You wouldn't be the first one here to have reading comprehension issues. Almost the entire NT is based upon behavior, get a grip, perhaps refresh your childhood memories by reading it especially if you're going to be debating/discussing the contents. Forgiveness is forgiveness, that also does not mean people won't face consequences for their crimes. Asking for forgiveness is a first step, a step into living righteously. Read that passage in Romans 8 again.
But here it is again....
For example, there's many ways a rapist can be punished for their deeds. They can be sentenced to prison on Earth to pay back their crime, they may lose many things you might never be aware of....they may face public scorn, lose family members respect for life, maybe never get to see their children, have a normal job, not be able to live wherever they want because of their criminal record. They may never get into heaven or worse they may experience something horrible when they die ect ect...the point being, is that you judge a scenario you have zero idea how it really plays out in reality. But we know that if God exists, God can't be that stupid to allow criminals into heaven and good people into hell, that is the opposite of reward and punishment.
Once a person accepts Jesus or repents, they must live righteously.
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@Theweakeredge
Probably rapists that seriously repenting get to go to heaven - and good people who don't believe would go to heaven (you probably meant hell).
Wow, God gifts Heaven to rapists and sends good people to Hell lol, it's like we're reading two different books.
it always disturbed me that a simple sincere apology and acceptance of jesus was enough to get to heaven
Its almost as if you've been to the Christian heaven, I wonder how Jesus would respond to your assertions. Maybe you have a twisted concept of what repentance means, repentance doesn't mean that a person never pays for their crimes. That's a common misconception. But it does mean that a person is not eternally damned because of a single choice they made during a lifetime.
In all seriousness though, you do realize that hell is for criminals and heaven is for those who deserve it right? it's amazing how you guys get everything azz backwards.
A rapist must pay for their crimes, the God of the Christian heaven is not as stupid as you probably think. After a rapist faces the consequences of their crime (reap what they sow), they may get a chance to adjust their heart and future choices, if they do in fact adjust them God has mercy. In other words God doesn't judge your finite crimes with an eternal punishment if God sees that criminals can change their ways....You seem to think this is an unfair idea?
For example, there's many ways a rapist can be punished for their deeds. They can be sentenced to prison on Earth to pay back their crime, they may lose many things you might never be aware of....they may face public scorn, lose family members respect for life, maybe never get to see their children, have a normal job, not be able to live wherever they want because of their criminal record. They may never get into heaven or worse they may experience something horrible when they die ect ect...the point being, is that you judge a scenario you have zero idea how it really plays out in reality. But we know that if God exists, God can't be that stupid to allow criminals into heaven and good people into hell, that is the opposite of reward and punishment.
Once a person accepts Jesus or repents, they must live righteously.
1 Corinthians 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
1 john 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Revelations 21
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Matthew 7
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
I could post many more passages, but does it sound like Heaven will be full of rapists and hell full of righteous (good) people?
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@Sum1hugme
There's an infinite number of things we can imagine.
Give me two or three examples of why the universe exists without referencing either materialism or a Creator.
Good ideas are those that Concord with reality
I'm sure everyone feels that way, do you not?
and have a way to separate those imaginary things from those things that exist in reality.
What you think is imaginary does not always reflect what may be true. For example if God exists, and you believe it's imaginary how does that make what you believe true?
I don't see a way to divorce religious ideas from dogma. Dogma is a bad idea because it can't change.
Because God exists independent of religious dogma. Meaning that religious dogma doesn't always reflect the truth about God. Religious ideas are dogma, perhaps you mean you don't see a way to divorce the concept of God from religion (dogma)?
There are universal truths about God, that are not predicated on any dogma. Though certain dogma may reflect truth, it's not something we have to have and often times it's simply mans idea about God.
Religions express what man thinks (perhaps observes at times) about God, but religion and God are in fact two separate issues.
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@Sum1hugme
Could you clarify what you mean by "universal ideas" please?
Universal as in not specific to dogma, just concepts that reflect Theism. Some examples would be the universal idea of a Creator as opposed to materialism. Perhaps Karma would be a good example, or as Christianity calls it "reaping and sowing". How about the conscious soul existing as an eternal being? and what is bad about correlating the processes and products of the universe with an intelligent Source?
What do you think about the prospect of the soul moving on after the death of the physical body? in other words an after life? I mean we do see strong evidence and indication that it's probably the case. Keeping in mind I'm not talking about being tortured in hell for eternity lol.
What about spirituality as a practical means of interfacing with such a reality?
Are these "bad" ideas? if so how do you mean? what is bad about those concepts?
In all fairness, you pretty much have two choices to pick from....either God exists or God doesn't, it's not like there is a third option so in terms on worldviews take your pick. Materialism (atheism) or Theism. Why is choosing Theism such a bad idea?
You obviously have chosen atheism or materialism as your interpretation of life but that is your choice, it doesn't make Theism a bad idea and certainly does not mean atheism is somehow superior an option.
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@Sum1hugme
Thoughts on religion and thoughts about it's adherents are separate.
That's a valid point.
but the ideas are bad.
Would you say that ALL the ideas are bad? Or just some of the more popular ideas? Could you give a few examples of universal ideas that are bad?
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@Bones
What are theists's honest opinion on atheists, vice versa?
Well there's all flavors of different folks of various worldviews so it depends upon the individual. In general atheists are people I'm highly fascinated with, and have a great passion for. It doesn't bother me that they don't have religious beliefs but it does bother me that they may be discounting an enormous portion of potential experience and a dynamic reality that they could be very much a part of. I don't hate them, in fact I love them. I too, am a skeptical mother fcker and love science and solid experiential observations.
The truth be told I probably wouldn't join forums like these if it weren't for atheists, debating and discussing Theism with Theists can be more frustrating than dealing with Atheists and that is saying a lot. I'm not quite sure if Atheists realize my passion for them because most of the time we are scourging one another, talking over each other with views that are so concrete we might as well just talk to the wind.
In general, many atheists I've talked with are great people, wise, smart and intelligent....strong thinkers but then again, many are really stupid, unoriginal and simply think what others have fed them to believe. They mock Theists for the very same things they are guilty of. They say the same things, they read the same books, they follow the same atheist preachers and their worldviews are seriously pathetic in terms of common sense. They mock Theists for what they say is as believing in fairy tales and magic yet their beliefs reflect the same damn thing but maybe more so. At least Theism can draw from strong correlation between the products of the universe and intelligence. Atheists accept magical fantasies more than they believe we do.
But I'm not here to pick a fight or expose such dumbfounded beliefs I'd rather credit Atheists with being straightforward no-nonsense people who don't take shyt from phony religious buttheads. I can relate to that, if only they knew how much I've curved my beliefs and followed strong evidence to accept what is true in regards to reality. If they knew how much love I had for them they might be inclined to hear me out, because I've put in the time and thought to create for them the most efficient path to learning the truth about Theism. It is my heart and desire for them to know the very truth about themselves and their origins. Why? because I know in my heart that the knowledge that is available would not only astound them if they knew it were true, but greatly impact their experiences and future in ways they never thought possible.
I'm not your average stupid religious salesmen though, I know the journey of the soul and accept it for what it is. I know what this level of experience has in store for them and why they cannot see beyond the immediate physical sense perceptions. It is what it is, but I'm one who wishes to nudge them while they sleep, knowing that when the time comes to wake up they may remember what it is that I wish to communicate with them so they have a path of clarity from a brother who looks out for them in the best possible way.
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@SkepticalOne
Why is there something rather than nothing?Wrong answers only.
Don't be stupid!! because things began to stir out of nowhere, energy began to build up within the vortex of movement of astronomical proportions. Kinetic energy became like an ocean within the vast nothingness of unlimited space penetrating the deep.
As inanimate energy was generated within a boundless field of ocean-like fluidity it randomly condensed itself into a nuclear powerhouse of atomic power. Then, as it was unleashed into a bazillion megatons of unimaginable force chemistry begat the fusion of magical space soup and star powder as it expanded throughout an infinite nothing!
Out of this explosion of mystical gas and dust, pockets of gravity began to pull and contract collapsing under their own gravitational attraction until nuclear fusion birthed the mothers of the universe in the form of fire stars! These gigantic beauties unconsciously began the process of sustaining and seeding our marvelous and dream-like universe where productions magically begin to take place!
Particle, ice and rock began to speed across the highways of the cosmos bumping into each other, colliding and collecting masses entangling themselves into webs of orbit where they will begin to fantastically form themselves into super planets and of course natural satellites where stars and moons strategically place themselves into beautiful planetary arrangements all by themselves!
As galaxies, solar systems and orbital production arranges within the fantasy of space soup and time and enormous planets construct themselves into heaps of molten rock and gas Earth as we know it eventually cools and combines a perfect mixture of water and mass.
Once again magic begins to occur! as stars provide the perfect amount of heat, light and particle these amazing rock formations trapped by their own orbits lay await as inanimate forces begin the process of creating life and consciousness through completely unconscious processes.....ecosystems create and establish themselves without an iota of awareness as water, vegetation, patterns of weather began bringing forth the abundance of properties to stimulate the emergence of animated features! creatures began to evolve and generate more advanced creatures, they began to crawl out of the oceans and appear on land of course as they spread through the vast dynamic landscapes of our planet.
Beast and monkey began to erect themselves into various stages of advancement and eventually into human form through a lifeless process of evolution to acquire lager brains and of course higher intelligence and now we're here to tell you about it! nothing began to do something and now nothing became something! nothing began to generate unintelligent processes and inanimate forces began to build the building block of life without thought or mind to produce an entire operating, functioning universe to a world just for you to enjoy my son.
Lesson of the day my boy, nothing is never void of something. Cool story no??
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@Double_R
"Things that do not exist cannot be the cause of other things" is not speculation, it's logic 101. It follows from the definition of "not exist".Because something that does not exist cannot cause other things, logically, the only *candidate* explanations are those which exist.Because a candidate explanation must first exist before it can cause anything, you cannot use something as an explanation if its existence has yet to be demonstrated.God's existence has yet to be demonstrated, therefore human experiences cannot be attributed to him.Note that everything I just said is generalized. I'm not referring to you specifically.
We're not making any assumptions that God exists or that God does not exist. We're just looking at experiences of that nature that may reflect the reality of that somethings existence. The point of course is that the fact they occur could be because it exists. God's existence doesn't need to be demonstrated for experiences to be a product of that Reality. They could simply be a product of that Reality because in fact God exists. Demonstrating God's existence to prove God exists is another thing altogether. Now don't get me wrong, I believe you have reason to believe that spiritual experiences don't reflect God's existence, I just disagree with that assertion.
You asked how spiritual experiences could occur if there were no God so I gave you my answer... Confirmation bias. Calling something a spiritual experience does not mean it was the product of the spiritual.
I'm just trying to get you to look at the phenomenon as a whole without bias because if God exists or some type or types of transcendent reality exist then we would expect to see a lot of observation, experiences, testimonies of that nature. Since in fact there is an overwhelming data base to pull from what are the chances it reflects the truth of the proposition? calling spiritual experiences confirmation bias is speculation and while you're welcome to that belief I don't think it is justified. Not with the amount we have to look into, it's not a good fit IMO.
I had no preconceived thoughts or ideas about the experiences I've had and so I know first hand what we're dealing with.
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@Wylted
You don't know really if God has directed the writing of the Koran, bible and Tanakh. Perhaps start by looking at things you do know he wrote. Look for him in the laws of nature.
This is a profound statement especially for atheists. Now of course, the atheist will just claim God is not needed to explain the laws of nature. However, that is a mere interpretation of what we observe in our universe it is not a fact. To make that assertion means they have to accept a lot of baloney to believe that whether they realize it or not at first.
But this statement is a step in the right direction because God exists independent of Holy books, and people have this weird idea that if they begin to accept that God may in fact exist (perhaps even through logic and good reasoning) then that means they have to believe in the Bible. Or even more disturbing, if they debunk the Bible that justifies their opinion God does not exist. This couldn't be further from the truth and actually if one begins to see the strong hand of correlation between the products of the universe and an intelligent Maker it really has nothing to do with the Bible. It is simply a common sense observation.
Holy books are just a collection of ideals man has about God, perhaps through their own experiences or perhaps through their own thoughts about God. Maybe even perhaps somethings they believe they received from God or from some source....There may be information there that is useful and there may be information that can be discarded. Before one starts to get into any of that though there should first be very strong inclination that God probably exists, or even better that God does exist and to believe that God does not exist is pretty stupid.
I believe God can easily be seen through just the products of the universe, and correlating processes with intelligence. I must say though that this is not my only reasoning for believing God exists but it's almost a flawless premise to build a strong case for God. Then, we can add many correlating facts with that foundation.
To argue endlessly over whether or not the Bible makes sense is completely irrelevant to whether God exists or not, which is why it gets old real quick. I rarely even argue for the Bible anymore after years of debating it I realized there is no way to get atheists to see any rational objective content in Holy books even is there was some.
Ironically though, there is nothing they can ever do to the possibility that God exists because even their own belief is just an interpretation no matter what they try and use to justify it. To believe intelligent processes just occur all on their own and that inanimate forces can begin to generate productions as if they had intelligence to know how has to be one of the strangest interpretations one can adopt.
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@TheUnderdog
But I believe God exists, yet I don't worship him because I strongly disagree with some things God has done.
But why must you equate God with the Bible? you believe God exists, yet you disagree with the contents of the Bible, what if God is independent of the contents of the Bible? did you ever consider my original post in this thread?
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@badger
We had a few chats on DDO back in the day, I was probably under a different name. I thought you were a cool guy then and I think you're a cool guy now tbh, just so you know.
Oh sweet, yeah that was back in the day lol.
I'm gonna skip the god talk though, it's embarrassing for me lol.
It's a part of life, I mean you can express that Reality anyway you want to. It doesn't have to be embarrassing at all, or even religious. I get though, I've been around a lot of whacky religious people in my time and it can get pretty weird. But honestly, it would help if people like you would pitch in and just share what you feel and what you want out of it, and people like me who are not oppressed by religious thinking and who are experienced can expand and work with you. I mean when it's all said and done it's just you, you come into this world alone and you leave this world alone and nothing else matters, there isn't really anything about God that is embarrassing. Hit me up in a message if you want to.
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@badger
I take pause at the very notion of god, that it should be a word on my lips at all. All the rest can be all mechanics, it doesn't matter, the universe gives itself a name. I'm not sure how religious I am, or what I believe in exactly, but there's that. There's wonder in it and there's hope in it, and I don't know how you could deny it.
I'm glad to read this, although don't worry about how religious you are that's not the objective. I'm sure I know what you mean though, just don't think you have to devote yourself to any religious organizations to believe in God. I'd love to discuss with you the dynamics of God's existence and we can leave out religion altogether. The beauty is that you are very much apart of a much greater transcendent Reality and the more you know the more fun you will have.
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@janesix
I'm sure spiritual experience indicates some type of divine power, an I usually call this God. But is this what you are asking?
Yes.
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@Double_R
Things that do not exist
Speculation
therefore you need to prove that something exists *before* you can put it forward as a candidate explanation.
I don't need to prove anything, the question was do you think human experience can account for the existence of God. The existence of God is well established for me, that's not the issue at hand, human experience is just a bonus. If you don't think human experience accounts for anything, just say no and perhaps why you think it does not.
Confirmation bias. How many times has personal experience revealed someone else's God?
Confirmation bias lol? I'm asking what YOU think, not what I think. But just so you are well informed I am an Omnist, meaning I consider spiritual experience as a whole so it doesn't matter about varying experiences. Actually in my worldview, it is the variations that make such a reality beautiful and worthwhile. Of course, if you're interested I can show you how that works.
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@badger
I view love as a sacrificial attitude more than a feeling per say. Or maybe Janesix is right and there are different forms of love, but I think the strongest form of love exceeds the boundaries of what we typically believe love is. Real love is the type of power that overrides what we feel or want, it goes beyond our physical impulses and desires to a place of seeing a much larger picture and letting ourselves go to impact that larger picture.
TBH as you pointed out in your illustrations love is not of the ordinary and is quite rare in the sense you don't really see it play a unanimous role in this world. Don't be bummed out though Badger, this is a very low level place within creation and a lot of the souls that inhabit it are not of higher awareness, but there are much higher conscious levels of existence that contain much greater elevated states of intentions, thinking, acting and resolutions. Remember this is a dualistic environment where you will see and experience the full swing of duality between positive and negative, shallow and deep, good and bad, light and darkness ect ect.
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@TheUnderdog
How come there are more posts from this one singular issue (The existence of God) then there are from every single political issue COMBINED? There are more posts on the religion forum than all the political issues on the political forum. WHY?
While the two subjects are relevant in different ways politics is basically relevant as a collective influence whereas the subject of God's existence can be both collective as well as extremely personal. Politics can come and go, it may change from one thing to another but there is a more personal element involved with the topic of God or religion. For example if God exists, then it's most likely if not certain that the soul exists and if that's true the dynamics involved are not only relevant to every single person but also highly fascinating. I think the subject matter is so intriguing that even atheists (non-believers) find the topic of interest inescapable, possibly even over politics. Heck, you see atheists more committed to the religion forum than the politics forum lol, that's because the question of God's existence is far more valuable in terms of sheer importance....one is temporal, one is eternal.....one is changing, one is unchanging.....one is external and the other internal ect ect...
I really don't think they are comparable at one level, the question is rather odd I must say. It's much like asking why there is more activity within the politics forum over the sports forum, it's just that politics are far more relevant to varying states of positions and beliefs while the other is just altogether a different subject matter. Spirituality whether people understand it or not is very much a part of each person because that is their true self and true origins and it will forever be a topic that people will gravitate to even though there are people who couldn't be further from believing God exists. I mean if God exists it virtually changes reality as each person may perceive it or even experience it.
At the core of each person there will always be the ever present curiosity of their inner being, origins and destinations. And that is because it is built within them, it's a reality that nobody could ever escape and so the topic of God is unlike any other subject.
Do you believe there should be more activity and or interest within the politics forum over the religion forum?
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@Kadin
Sure why not, many Biblical passages and or teachings are just overarching principles using specific illustrations but that can be applied to a myriad of scenarios. Of course BLM would fit into that parable, black people have been subjected to discrimination, murder and heinous crimes while others lived in peace. Blacks are not the only people who experience discrimination but certainly they qualify as ones who Jesus left the 99 for.
What goes around comes around though and in many ways whites will be the ones who suffer more than minorities, they may even become the minority.
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Does Human experience (related to Theism) account for the existence of God?
I'm not asking if you think it is good enough to prove to you the existence of God, but if you think human experience throughout history accounts for God's spiritual presence. By answering yes to this question, it does not mean you believe God exists but it does mean you would concede that the full scope of spiritual experience indicates God exists in some way, perhaps.
After all, if God did not exist how could there be any experience of that nature? if no transcendent reality exists, how could there be any knowledge of it?
If you answer no, without speculating, please explain why human experience can't be attributed to the existence of a Creator.
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@thett3
Haha I was glad to see this, I watched Lonesome Dove the series because someone mentioned it to me and I thought it was fantastic. It depends on who you are though, I wouldn't think the younger generation would be much into it but I'm kind of old school in a way. It's old fashioned and obviously western, but has some twisted content along the way. I say it's fantastic because it keeps you watching it, and the character Robert Duvall plays makes you really want to invest time in completing the series. IMO he kind of made the movie what it is.
I didn't even know at the time there was a novel written, I told my wife she had to watch the film with me but she found out there was a book and decided to read it first. Like you, she was captivated with the book and couldn't wait to watch the series to see if it would hold up. I was surprised how fast she knocked out the book! (it must be good)....She loved the movie, but felt the novel was a bit better. She thought Duvall did an excellent job, she did hate the character that played Jake Spoon lol, so did I. That was her biggest thing, she thought he didn't fit the part well compared to the book. Diane Lane is one of her favorite female actresses and to me she played a great role in that movie.
Anyways my wife and I like to break out the DVD from time to time and sit through it, I think I finally got sick of it after watching it a hand full of times but honestly I love the old style slow scene movies. Nowadays movie scenes are just too fast and jumpy it gets on my damn nerves. Everything seems to go too fast, I mean endless panning is cool and all but it's overdone in a lot of cases. Especially fight scenes, I love martial arts movies too but the modern ones, they are just too jumpy most of the time.
I have yet to read the novel, not sure if I will TBH....It seems like I'm already familiar with the story but my wife swears the book is really good. Do you think it's worth reading after seeing the film 5 or 6 times?
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@Wylted
Good for you. Go find yourself a religion that fits your cookie cutter beliefs, instead of adopting the ethics god wants you to have. Why should you change for God? He should change for you.
Not that I have anything against the emotional value of your post but it's nonsensical. God is a much higher conscious level of existence and knowledge, unfortunately authority always operates from the top down not from the bottom up and given that we are talking about God the reasons should be obvious. However he doesn't really have to change for God, he just needs a higher source to be influenced by, that is, if he wishes to advance himself within the nature of that knowledge.
Sometimes we need to improve ourselves but not always, at least that is not always the objective, and.....it's not really for God but our own progress. God doesn't need our ethics lol, that is primarily our own battle to deal with. Sometimes we just want to learn, or perhaps get outside of ourselves and take on greater levels of awareness and knowledge, reach for something far beyond what our conditioned minds understand. Religion is not for everyone, sometimes it can become an obstacle and is not at all the objective of spirituality and honestly the only thing useful for him at this point regarding religion is perhaps someone might have insight about something that interests him. As I pointed out in post #5 it's best to simply study them all and gather a more wholistic view of the entire world of religious information.
Change is something that should occur when one begins to feel uncomfortable with themselves knowing that perhaps they are weighed down with an emotional, mental or physical element that they sense is no longer fitting with their level of awareness and they need to drop that way of thinking, feeling or acting. Religion could play a role during that process but it's not necessary, however it would be quite an uphill climb relying squarely on oneself to promote oneself. So to be able to pull from a much higher source of inspiration is the most efficient way of reaching goals that transcend our limitations and emotional baggage. Spirituality really is the practical application of the reality that transcends our personal observations and output, and should be pursued as a means of gaining much higher levels of experience and observation with or without religion.
The classic depiction of the student and the Master is always the journey of every soul during their experiences in creation, sure, the student may become a Master but there is most certainly a path one must traverse before they reach such a destination but even then they really only ever become the Master of themselves and their environment. No one will ever Master God because we will always exist within that Reality as fractions of that Reality so at best, we could become one with God when that moment would be appropriate. But as baby souls we should always look to our Creator as a Source that knows, observes and understands the full scope of reality as it exists and knows what we should be seeking to learn or acquire on our journeys.
After all there is no other Source that could possibly have a greater awareness.
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@Ramshutu
This is most likely completely worthless to add here, but faith is honestly and simply put......trust and confidence period, with perhaps a spiritual element involved. You could literally say that you have confidence in something and it would mean that you have faith in that which it is you have that trust in. Religions just make up their own words for principles that already exist and some of them are just universal ideas.
We can argue semantics and try and show that faith means to believe in things with no reason or evidence but that is a bullshit definition, it is not relevant to faith as it has meaning in religious thought. To have trust and confidence in something means the exact opposite, trust and confidence must come THROUGH reason and evidence for it to exist. The more reason and evidence there is the more faith can be relevant. If you read the Gospels you see quite clearly how Jesus illustrates this point, by articulating the contrast between little faith and great faith and by correlating the persons level of confidence with their faith. "Ye of little faith vs Ye of great faith"....."Your faith has accomplished this or that"....
You see faith play out all through human history and even in sports and all kinds of feats that required strong faith or confidence to accomplish goals, dreams, desires, objectives, missions ect ect..... faith is like foresight into trusting what you already know is true, what you already believe can happen. And in doing so one is able to use such a platform to generate drastic changes, for example Jesus changed the future of the whole world and how people would forever view God. In this light it can be seen as more of an action than some empty belief. Faith has much more substance and hope than belief because it is based upon an understanding which is based upon evidence and reason.
If one simply has belief with no supporting reason or evidence their faith is nothing and accomplishes nothing because it has no real substance. In order that faith be relevant and effective it must be bolstered by trust and confidence and trust and confidence must be defined through reason and evidence. The more reason and evidence the more trust and confidence and the more trust and confidence the more faith one can have in something. Do you see where I am going with this? there is no difference between faith and confidence. They are in fact the same meaning.
Atheists love to point to the weakest form of faith, which is basically non-existent, which makes it a strawman. Atheists don't understand confidence in spiritual matters altogether either so anything related is always believed to be a delusion, stupid, ignorant, a metal illness or whatever label they wish to assert. Faith doesn't need to be avoided anymore than your most confidence you have in any one thing or belief.....your confidence IS your faith. Your trust in anything IS your faith and while you should feely admit you have confidence in many things you should also admit you have faith in them. Same thing.
have faith that I will win the lottery some day
To believe in something is to accept something, but to have faith in something is to know something. See the difference? a person might not be aware of such a difference but it doesn't matter, it doesn't render faith useless either because faith is either effective or isn't, it either produces something or it doesn't. If does not produce something there is no faith.
Would you ever assert that trust and confidence be avoided at all costs?
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@RationalMadman
Nothing you can teach a know-it-all I guess. Then one has to wonder why they ask questions.
The emotions are used to reinforce our attachment to things whether that be good or bad, flesh or spirit....that doesn't mean because we get emotionally involved with something it transcends physical bounds. Sexual gratification has long been understood within spiritual circles as a carnal nature and desire. That's basic stuff. We can attach our emotions to anything, any habit whatsoever.
This is why you see souls enslaved to all sorts of behaviors in this world, sexual gratifications would be one of those behaviors. Love is distinct from carnal desires which is why people can chase them without any love involved at all.
Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
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@RationalMadman
Sexuality is a part of spirituality, we literally fall in love intertwined with our sexuality.
Sexual gratification only runs flesh deep....love and relationships are held together at higher levels. In other words love and relationships can exist without sex or sexual preferences. The need to have sex, crave it or desire it is intertwined within the human anatomy as it is at the flesh level, yet the soul of a man exists independent of that.
John 3:6
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
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@RationalMadman
Jesus was a spiritual guy obviously, one who spent much time applying and contemplating such phenomenon. I honestly don't think he was gay, not that I care either it's just my own opinion. Most sages, gurus and God-men put their energies towards a spiritual category especially once they reach a certain point in their spiritual walk. In other words sexual gratification simply wasn't on his mind and in his thoughts, it wasn't his interests.....not because he was gay, and it doesn't make him a pedophile (which believe it or not I've heard before)! Those claims are stupid and often times from people that just don't understand the higher levels of spirituality and people who practice abstaining and subduing the carnal nature.
I've learned that when knuckleheads and mostly immature folks start reading scriptures they get everything wrong, not because of the texts but because of their own perverted perceptions, they have no clear way to articulate spiritual literature and because of that very little of it makes any sense to them. So they begin to interpret everything backwards, and even the things that are meant to portray purity become some kind of perversion.
It's funny but when I was kid the Gospels were so clear and easy to understand, intelligent and intellectual, compassionate and inspiring and to me it made good sense. When I got older and began reading through religious forums like these and atheist opinions about such things I thought to myself "WTF" is wrong with everybody?? lol, how is it they get something so simplistic and pure twisted? how do they manage to interpret everything backwards?
I can tell from the passages from what Jesus teaches and how he teaches it that sexual perversions and carnality just wasn't his gig, simply because he learned how to put more emphasis on spiritual things. This is easy to do once you learn how to control the mind, which enables the user to control thought....input and output. And another thing, it was pretty common back in that time that spiritual men would accompany other spiritual men not because of being gay but because of a cultural understanding of principle. This point you brought up is not enough to try and make Jesus look gay, and beyond that I don't think Jesus preferred men over woman in any way at all, except for the fact it was a cultural phenomenon that men traveled with men generally speaking. Even when you look outside the religious sphere, women were simply servants, concubines and homebodies does it really surprise you Jesus' disciples were men?? read the passage with the woman at the well, or the prostitute that was to be stoned to see how Jesus viewed women and how he communicated with them.
Jesus' consciousness wasn't at balls level so to speak like most of the men you might be used to being around, his higher level of consciousness was simply above sexual attractions, that has nothing to do with his sexual preferences but his preference of interest. Wherever a person directs their thoughts towards is what they become. The average hillbilly has no clue what it means and what it takes to control the mind and body.
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@TheUnderdog
Because of this, I say good riddance to Christianity.
Well nobody is forcing you to be a Christian just to hold Theistic beliefs. There's always that pressure of course but it is only a matter of people making you feel such a burden that you need to be this or that.
Unfortunately God still exists
Do you really feel it is unfortunate God exists, or are you afraid that God may in fact be how the Bible portrays that?
If God exists, it is a very fortunate thing because it has very interesting implications for everyone. Our involvement with that Reality is incredible, dynamic and beautiful! sometimes we take that for granted but perhaps we are just sick of religion and dogma and all the BS that taints such a wonderful truth and the imposing restrictions of our freedom of expression and understanding. Many times it is the very thing we were told to believe that drives us away from God, at that point just let it go.
I say this from a position that Christianity has many beautiful things to offer people, on the other hand there's much more to this whole thing than you could ever dream of. Religions are just one tiny piece of the whole puzzle.
but I need to find a different religion other than Christianity.
There's a lot of valid knowledge and insights in a wide variety of religious sources, one thing people should consider is that every single religious source of information has useful data and useless data. Some things within them are accurate and some things not so accurate. This means that really you don't have to put much emphasis in any one source but study as much as you can from them all to gain a more universal and wholistic view of the Creator. You could simply call this method spirituality, and you apply to yourself that which is useful in progressing you spiritually.
You may ask yourself "well how do I know what is true and what is not true"? It's simple, what sounds stupid and illogical to you is most likely baloney and most of the time such things are not even applicable to your own spiritual development anyways. What you want to look for are things that apply to you as a spiritual being, apply whatever is applicable and leave all the nonsense behind. Don't put much emphasis in dogma, stories and cultural ways of thinking and acting but pay more attention to perhaps the heart of a message, principles and spiritual practices that are applicable.
The bottom line is that you are not expected to believe in anything that you don't find useful or true, you come from the heart of God and you are already connected to that Realty with or without religion. Religious information is there so that you have access to knowledge that you may be unaware of but you don't need it, it's simply a bonus.
You don't want to drop one ball and chain for another. Once you let go, keep yourself free yet open to new things. Don't put limits on God or limits on the way you know or understand God. Connect with God outside of religion, because in reality your connection to God precedes any religious source anyways.
Just don't be discouraged because you find pieces of religious literature disturbing....rather be happy that you don't have to accept anything you don't agree with and your freedom in God has no limits. You have everything to be proud of and excited about.
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@Theweakeredge
I raised to believe in spirits, its simply that it was not brought up much, you looked a tad too much into a off-line that meant literally nothing (its what writers would call "needless fluff")
I was responding to your own words, not my assumptions..."So even as a Christian I only believed in spirits like the Holy Spirit or a spirit that only left the body when god came to judge us."
Furthermore, as we have already discussed, there is exactly zero peer-reviewed research that demonstrates spirits exist
That means little, because the spirit world naturally belongs to spirituality not a secular source. That should be obvious....two distinct natures, two distinct studies. Peer-reviewed research would correlate with the demonstrable body of evidence that belongs to spiritual literature. Whether or not you accept that as legitimate is irrelevant. There is more than enough correlating documentation that support such a premise, and more than enough research within the domain of spirituality.
and... interestingly enough, the ones that try do a lot of fraud in the process,
Perhaps, but it does not compare to such a vast array of legit knowledge and sources.
the biggest evidence we have for spirits are collections of anecdotal experiences
At least you acknowledge it, finally.
that are not controlled for other occurrences, are not checked by other researchers
They don't need to be, however they are checked and supported by correlating sources.
and are not able to be recreated or reproduced
How would such experiences be able to be repeated? that is basically stupid....not saying you are stupid but it's an ignorant thing to suspect. How could any of my own observations ever be repeated? I just witnessed my father dying, he decayed in the time span of just a few months.....I tell you that and then you say for you to accept it, it must be recreated and reproduced, do you know how ignorant that sounds? yet it happened, yet I can't reproduce it because the experience was unique to my own observations.
I can only reproduce things I can harness and demonstrate to you, however that does not mean that anything I can't reproduce never happened.
a lot of times, you can't even verify that it happened at all
They can be verified, by the wealth of knowledge that correlates with that nature of experience. That falls within the category of religion and spirituality.
(the instance where someone was nearly dead, not the experience, you can't verify that). So while I do think that accepting naturalism automatically means that spirits don't exist, the utter lack of evidence, and repeated failure to demonstrate such existence only helps that notion.
There isn't an utter lack of evidence, not even close. Your denial, or lack of acceptance that evidence is overwhelming is not lack of evidence. Look up the term evidence. I've always respected you as a person and an intelligent, bright person, but your conclusions are warped and based upon lack of real honest input.
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@Theweakeredge
Ironically, the Bible is a book that supports the belief in spirits if you really pay attention. I mean they're as much a part of the Bible as any other theology. Maybe the limits you are familiar with pertain more towards the human spirit but honestly, the spirit (or soul) of every being precedes the physical womb. There are some verses in the Bible that are a bit of a misconception, at least they paint the wrong picture because souls are immortal and they are not limited to just the planet earth. To add, each soul comes out of the heart of God, figuratively speaking. There is no spirit or soul that exists independent of that Reality.
The more you study spirituality and religion as a whole the more it (spiritism) falls into place as a very strong theology.
Spiritism is a good term to begin with, not as a religion per say but as a worldview and ideology. I don't know what exactly has you so sold on the assumption that spirits (souls) don't exist to support HARD naturalism but I understand it. I think with all the information available it's a bit of a mistake to be so opposed to it. However, needless to say if souls or spirits don't exist my personal worldview falls apart, on the other hand if they do so does yours. I must say though that the full scope of human experience falls gracefully into the worldview of spiritism more than any other belief including atheism, materialism or naturalism.
Let me say this, I don't just start with the assumption that spirits exist. I don't just accept that and then build my worldview based off of that. It's much more complex than any given assumption for me personally. My beliefs are based upon a lifetime of experience, observation and acquired knowledge given all the information and evidence that exists. The one thing I find interesting about atheists is that many of them were raised Christian, I don't blame for rejecting such a belief system but I do hold them to the fact that they become bias towards the possibility that such realities beyond the immediate physical sense perception exist. I can understand why they would become so opposed to the idea because they simply never connected with that, they may become skeptical about religious dogma because of that, but there's no reason to limit the reality that souls exist just because they disagree with Christian dogma and teaching. There's a kind of disconnect between rejecting Christianity as a childhood indoctrination and being intellectually honest about spirituality and a Creator as a whole. It always comes across as it's either one or the other....in other words it's either what I was raised to believe exists or nothing at all period, to me that is very small minded in relation to a wealth of knowledge and experience/observation and human experience.
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@Castin
Were you once a Christian or were raised in a Christian household? or are you just interested in religious theology? unlike a lot of folks you have a very solid grasp of theology, it's kind of unique to you. Is Christianity the only religious theology that interests you? have you ever been curious or have studied any other religious knowledge?
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@Bones
The present moment is just a succession of now's, the past is a collection of those moments and time is how we measure them. If the present didn't exist, you wouldn't exist so that's a good method to show you it exists. Time, or the measurement of time cannot define the present because it only exists in the "now" so there is no mechanism that can reveal how long it lasts, it's sort of an oxymoron. Once that moment passes then time becomes relevant and we can measure it.
Consciousness will always be in the now, the present moment. It is then through the mind that accesses the past through memory, thought through categorization.... and our recollection of past events is how we understand "time".
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@SkepticalOne
How do you define "God"...
Long definition-
The highest Universal Principle, the final cause of all that exists. Pervasive, creative, infinite, eternal Reality and the single binding unity behind diversity in all that exists in the universe..... is everywhere and inside each living being, and there is connected spiritual oneness in all existence.
Short definition-
Preceding, creative conscious awareness which originates, governs and observes that which exists.
...and how did you come to this definition?
From the Sanskrit term known as "Brahman". Because I agree with it.
Other than that, it is my interpretation that the universe is a product of intelligence and that the conscious soul (us) is a fraction/version of the eternal conscious Soul (God). Creation (including us) is a mirror of the expressions of God. Thought can be interpreted behind the processes of our universe and God can be innately known deep in conscious experience because each soul comes from that Reality.
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@Timid8967
Why is it that everyone thinks I am someone else?
I can't speak for anyone else but for one, there's a nutcase that stalks this forum and presents many sides of his weird arse personality disorder. So every time he is banned one has to wonder whether or not that weirdo is putting forth yet another fake arse member. Anyways I'll know who you are and who you aren't as we discuss something. No need to get paranoid about it. If you aren't Willows then we could have a nice discussion. Depends on how interested you are and how far you want to go with it.
I am not willows. I am not tradesecret. I am not ethang5. I am not brotherdthomas. I am not PGA2.0.So over the politics.
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@Benjamin
What are the 2 best arguments for and against God? This is a question of subjective opinion, and I am curious to hear your thoughts whoever you are.
The best argument for God is the argument from intelligent processes (my own argument). NOT, the argument from intelligent design....design and processes invoke different things, the term "design" forces skeptics to focus on the imperfection of such a "design" whereas if you get people to look at how obvious it is that the processes of the universe correlate with intelligent productions then it is very easy to correlate those processes with thought and intelligence by what they produce as a whole. We're not looking for perfection so no need to invoke design but function. The universe is nothing short of a succession of processes that create desired outcomes, that is, outcomes that benefit and sustain that which produces effects as if they knew what needed to be achieved hence....intelligence. This goes without saying that an intelligent agency (God) is a perfect match for what we observe in the universe. And to believe that inanimate forces could somehow generate such processes as if they had minds is really quite absurd.
I don't think there is a good argument against God, unless of course one argues from just one source of religious dogma, then their rebuttals are limited to just one source of information. For example the argument from the problem of suffering is easily dealt with by Karma yet most people won't admit it because one, either they haven't thoroughly thought it through or they think it should be taught by the Bible and if it hasn't then it doesn't qualify lol. The problem of evil is also dealt with when a person fully understands duality and free will in such an environment as the one we are experiencing. The argument from why there are many paths of religious thought and observation is easily dealt with when one understands the full scope of creation and that many, many countless societies exist outside the physical world that a soul can experience and sojourn...which is also the beauty and variety of creation as a whole. I can go on an on but honestly, there is no decent argument that can support that God does not exist. That's my opinion of course, which is substantiated by my own arguments if they are taken as they logically follow in any discussion.
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@Timid8967
How do we stop giving religious movements airtime and oxygen without talking about them?
Talking about them will not give them oxygen. Supporting them will. Whatever we do in this forum is purely discussion.
It was put to me that I am inconsistent in my position in respect of the above question. And perhaps, he is correct in his assessment.
I doubt that, I'd like to know whom you think is correct. None of the people I can think of would rarely be correct in that they offer truth as it stands. The regulars in this forum are dopes, a few of them okay.
Nevertheless, until there is a simple manner on how we can do it, then the ordinary cut and thrust of the so called religious discussion on this forum is unhelpful.
Yes it is, because the main people within this forum are basically stupid, you will never find anything helpful outside of someone who has a firm grasp on spirituality as a whole. The ones that could help you are so few and far in between you would be shocked.
It goes around and around and around - it gets bitter and twisted and nasty.
Welcome to public religious forums.
I wonder how many others think this is the case or whether I am alone? Please care to comment.
I've been reading your posts. If you're not the nutcase we know as Willows who has a problem with obsession and multi-accounting then I think you bring some interesting things to the table. One, I like how you support the idea that atheists often times create strawman concepts that don't really deal with Theistic arguments in a rational way. I get that, it makes sense. On the other hand there's a lot of wacky ideas about God, and religion often times doesn't help the matter but makes it worse. So you have to find someone who has a good grasp on all concepts about God and who can articulate what is true through experience and intelligence in a logical manner.
So fortunately for you, you have a good start to actually get a foothold on what's going on because of your willingness to expand on ideas. You just need the right individual to talk to. That could be like finding a needle in a hay stack! Depending on what you would like to discuss and how open minded and intuitive you are, we can get the ball rolling right now and make some headway beyond what most people discuss. At this point I'll allow you to go in any direction you would like, all topics on the table. Just let me know where you would like to start.
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