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@zedvictor4
Are you me?
Yep I see the resemblance...stubborn, pig-headed, fixated on one ideology, arrogant, generic, boring yep you and Willows (oops I mean Mandral) are pretty much the same. Now we have yet another dipshyt, controlling and obsessed moron taking over all religious discussions that could have potential but never will because of a handful of doofuses that have decided picking on religion and religious people justifies their stupid idea that it will somehow prove the non-existence of God lol. Have fun reading all of Willows (oops I mean Mandrals) crap material for the next 6 months while he swamps the board like an obsessed fool while I sit back and watch you all make yourselves look like pathetic airheads until some intelligent folks show up in the future. I know that's a pipe dream but hey, it's better than engaging a board full of anti-God freaks! adios suckers!
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@Outplayz
Oh man, you had to say this didn't you. Well, you know my answer... i'm going to be a vampire and anyone that wants to join, be my victim, enemy, wars, death, killing, happiness, all of it... i want that all, plus being a vampire. I want to go though the struggle of drinking human blood, i want to go through the regret of those i eat, i want that long stretch of peace and love, then... vampire hunters manifest to screw me for a couple years. One thing i found fun i can add to this is being a vampire in a super-hero type reality... therefore, i'd be the most powerful super-hero since they'd be my food. But again, the above would matter... i'd want to win, and get my ass kicked. What else can you ask for really? As to god, i'd hope he find my reality fun and comes and hangs out... either as an enemy (it be fun punching god), my vampire slave, my vampire slave bitch, or just a friend... who knows, whatever god's feeling. Not my choice =)
Yep I remember, and I'm glad you chimed in because you make a great example of uninhibited creativity and what really is possible for an infinite number of creative souls of all types. Creation is much like anime, but we happen to be stuck in this part of creation which really is very limited it its ability to create. Part of the reason is because earth is either a habitation for newer, immature souls or much more rare, a place where really advanced beings come to help lower or newer souls advance. So if this place was more suited for the unrestricted creativeness of what the soul could do we would be in a lot more trouble. Look at the devastation some humans here conjure up with just limited powers....
But your vision here stirs up images that I think are very beautiful. Like for example other planets within other solar systems that have different looks to them because of the arrangement of their galaxy, stars and planets. Perhaps this type of setting would fit perfectly with a darker planet, perhaps one really close to a moon where it is visually huge as it orbits around that planet like these images below!
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That's what I want people to start thinking about, is the dynamics of creation and what is possible. Most people think about our universe as uninhabitable but it's only an assumption based around ignorance because each habitable solar system develops bodies that correspond to its environments. Just because humans cannot inhabit other parts of the universe is irrelevant for one, they were not created to do so (outside of spacecraft) and two, they evolved accordingly as products of their environment. Perhaps the beings that evolve in your world will look completely different. Perhaps also with the need to drink blood from other creatures lol.
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@Theweakeredge
Because power leads to corruption, especially PHYSICAL power
Well the only "power" we are talking about is the power to manipulate energy to create form, and eventually worlds. Not the power over others. Maybe "power" is a misleading term. TBH there is no need for the power over others I'll explain below!
that's why I would want any god to have similarly just gods to rule over them - as a back up.
This is an interesting point and actually is true in some ways I can explain but at some point we have to deal with infinite regression. Somewhere at some point there is only One Origin. We usually refer to that Origin as God. Demi gods are a whole other topic, but there are superior entities that rule over parts of creation, and they are subject to God. The reason for these types of beings is they are also an outlet for God's power, creativity and expression. But this is all to create the illusion of many different types of experiences. This might sound really weird, but creation has an overriding board of justice made up of very enlightened, advanced beings that make decisions.
This might sound fantastical but there are several groups that oversee creation, because we are dealing with multiverses within creation, two groups I can think of are the Karmic Board of Justice and the Galactic Federation of Light.
But in order to reduce the chances of such corruption ever happening, then they do not have the direct ability to create or destroy.
Follow me here for a bit, corruption would indicate a need or possibly to gain some advantage point out of desperation or some bizarre desire no? like say the desire to gain power over others maybe for some political gain, perhaps some type of business move, could even be some sexual gratification (trafficking), maybe to dominate or capture some area of the world....some type of control that would necessitate the need to put others at a disadvantage and possibly put others in harms way to fulfil a sense of satisfaction?
What if God does not have those needs? because to God there's nothing to gain over others, and there's no need of wealth or politics or advantage points? what if God does not desire or need the very things that manifest corruption? The one thing different about the state of existence God exists in is that it is a state of completion in terms of self sustainment, although God may have conscious "needs", we could say or desires to express Itself because that is what is innate to consciousness as an experience but basically there are no advantage points to be gained because It is a self-sustaining Reality. One way to look at it is that the Creator is a singular Reality, there is no other God or friend, or family member, or neighbor, or equal to make a decision to gain something over....
One thing I want you to consider here is that I'm not shutting down your ideas, I'm just bouncing around thoughts so that we can possibly see eye to eye somehow. So I'm just going to present a common definition of corruption only in hopes of making my point that to become corrupt requires features that God doesn't really have or have need of.
"Corruption is a form of dishonesty or criminal offense undertaken by a person or organization entrusted with a position of authority, to acquire illicit benefit or abuse power for one's private gain."
The only angle we could derive anything of use here in relation to the Creator is a position of authority but again, there is nothing God would need from its creation, creation is nothing but an expression of Itself it serves no purpose of criminality, dishonesty, abuse or private gain for God other than simply being an outlet for creativity. If you don't agree with that I won't argue the point I just want to give you another way of thinking about God, hopefully in a more positive light. God does not have personal needs for money, sex, land, politics or really any criminal activity and even if there was a small chance it were possible it wouldn't matter, anything God does with It's creation It does to itself, it kind of defeats the purpose.
If we take away the ability of God to create we take away everything that makes up who we are and what creation is altogether...which is a creative product of God.
That's a recipe for disaster, we fear what we don't understand and you should never have to fear the one protecting you
Right, but what if you don't have to fear that? I mean we could go either way here if we're just hypothesizing right? why take one road and not the other? to me at least, it just seems like a leap in logic that really might not be necessary.
Yes yes they can be superhuman and all that, but they are not so far above humans that we can't even comprehend their power.
I don't think that is necessary, humans are tiny versions of God so there is no need to think there's something we can't comprehend. Humans are just stepped way down to a finite version of conscious awareness. Really it's our embodiments that limit what we are, outside of embodiments there is no real distinction from us and God.
These are all great points to bring up though, hopefully we can agree on something here.
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@Theweakeredge
IF I were to accept some god to exist, I suppose there would be certain characteristics I would wish they exhibitordinary powerlessness over matter and suchsome kind of other beings for checking their authority with the same characteristicslogicalPrioritizing the well-being of creatures based on sentienceallows change within their doctrineprotects the creatures it rules overteaching the creatures how to advance & prosperincorruptibleunagingwilling to pass on power based on traits similar to their ownTo consisely answer the question:They must act in the best interest of sentient creaturesThey must consider and accept the view of similarly rules creaturesThey must be beings of ordinary-human manipulation of matter/space
Thank you Theweakeredge as one who was willing to engage the topic as it is! I was actually hoping you would because I know you understand/resonate with freedom and you are intelligent enough to understand what I'm doing here.
My first question, if God exists....do you believe God to fit any of these stipulations as our reality is? I realize for right now, we are stuck in this low level physical world so just keep that in mind when thinking about it. Another thing I would want you to consider is that religion has pushed doctrine, so in essence there may be more freedom than any of us realize. We just may not know it because religious conquest has been on the forefront, you are a perfect example of what I wanted to establish here.
My next question is about this...."ordinary powerlessness over matter and such, They must be beings of ordinary-human manipulation of matter/space"....
I'm not sure I fully understand what you're getting at, is this something you feel is logical? if creation is a product of a Creator, then it is precisely the power over matter that allows for creation, and the manipulation over matter that signifies and confirms the intelligence behind processes and why they occur. I'm confused at why you would be opposed to that, unless I'm not getting what you're saying.
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@secularmerlin
Cause and effect leave no room for freewill I would change the unjust part of the law which punishes individuals for actions they have no control over.
Wow, you totally missed the point entirely, not surprising. Quite the opposite, people are corrected for actions that they have complete control over. Another way to say it is that we reap what we sow...what you do to me you must also experience. This is not a violation of free will, it is the results of having free will.
The goal of any law should not be to level punishment at individuals or groups but to protect those living under said law.
That is what the moral law is Sec.
"There only one law that exists, its a moral law of cause and effect meaning that you can do whatever you want, but when you cause harm to any other soul you must reap the effect of that choice."
That law IS the protection of the people, while also allowing for complete freedom of individual expression as long as it does not violate someone else's. How you people manage to get everything azz backwards is beyond me.
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@secularmerlin
With all the nagging and whining about religious oppression and unfairness you would think a topic like this would be welcome. Rather now you guys just nag and whine about freedom of expression.
Well stated. Far better than my own reply.
And here was my reply to that...
"The point of the this exercise is to break molds, either the limitations we put on ourselves or the preconceived ideas thrusted upon us by religion. Even more our lack of confidence as individual expressions coming straight out of the Being of God. Let me put it this way, there's no one here that could recreate or imagine anything that is not possible so there is no fear in using one's creativity and honestly there's no reason why there should be be any barriers for each individual expression of God presenting God on their own terms. I mean they are very much a part of God, religions as well are based upon some mans expressions anyways there's no harm in presenting the Creator in the light of complete freedom as God is the Father of anyone here.
Another great point to bring up is that as each soul here leaves the physical body on this planet they will learn how restricted of a place this is in terms of individual creativity, significance and lack of control from many factors. Showing them the freedom in creativity in God's created worlds is no poor exercise because there are no limits in more advanced places beyond this one.
I know you feel it's a hard thing to figure things out but honestly that's because of the fear and lack of confidence people have to innately accept they have no limitations in God and they have all knowledge at their fingertips as beings that originate from that Reality. Again, I'm simply trying to budge the barriers by emphasizing complete freedom of thought."
Very interesting right?
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@janesix
Honestly I don't see the point of this exercise. Why make things up, how we would prefer it? It's hard enough trying to figure out what's going on in the first place.
The point of the this exercise is to break molds, either the limitations we put on ourselves or the preconceived ideas thrusted upon us by religion. Even more our lack of confidence as individual expressions coming straight out of the Being of God. Let me put it this way, there's no one here that could recreate or imagine anything that is not possible so there is no fear in using one's creativity and honestly there's no reason why there should be be any barriers for each individual expression of God presenting God on their own terms. I mean they are very much a part of God, religions as well are based upon some mans expressions anyways there's no harm in presenting the Creator in the light of complete freedom as God is the Father of anyone here.
Another great point to bring up is that as each soul here leaves the physical body on this planet they will learn how restricted of a place this is in terms of individual creativity, significance and lack of control from many factors. Showing them the freedom in creativity in God's created worlds is no poor exercise because there are no limits in more advanced places beyond this one.
I know you feel it's a hard thing to figure things out but honestly that's because of the fear and lack of confidence people have to innately accept they have no limitations in God and they have all knowledge at their fingertips as beings that originate from that Reality. Again, I'm simply trying to budge the barriers by emphasizing complete freedom of thought.
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They simply require yes or no answers..
Lol, yep, straight back to the reading comprehension issues. Should have suspected nothing less.
No. I am asking you why god created anything at all in the first place.
Lol, yep, straight back to the reading comprehension issues. See ya Steve.
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Okay so we all know what everyone dislikes about religion and concepts about God, the Bible, moral ideologies, laws, rules and so forth. For this topic I would like to reach beyond all of that baloney. This is for everyone to participate not just religious people. For this topic I want to erase mans preconceived ideas and religions contributions about God and I want everyone to feel completely free to express themselves. I would like to recreate what we know about God, spirituality and creation as if we all have our own say in what happens here. Lets presume God does exist but not in the average way we all depict God, in others words we want to strip away religious influence and anything attached to that, that would control our output here.
Lets say we all know we originate with God, and we are all free to engage creation as we so wish, free to depict God as we see is fair. Give me some idea of what would totally satisfy you as a free agent within creation to express yourself and what you feel about God as your own God...develop whatever you want, to create society in any way you wish as you see would fit you best, tell me what you think about God or what you think God would be like. Tell me what would make you happy, what would be cool, what would you imagine God like, how you would see everything play out. Tell me what you would do, what you would create if you had complete freedom to do anything you would want. Or how you think God would rule creation, or if you believe God wouldn't care to. Basically just say whatever you want, the first thing you innately feel about God's existence as if you knew God yourself, just say whatever it is that pops into your thoughts.
If you're really feeling creative I want you to imagine that once you leave planet earth, you are allowed to create your own world, and other souls are allowed to choose to live there....what would you do, what would it be like, what kind of people would you allow there? what objectives would you establish, would there be any purpose, would there be any regulations, would there be any specific things that set it apart from our normal experience? I want to see some real creativity here, the sky is the limit but I want each person to feel completely and creatively free to express themselves in any way they want understanding that they are eternal, and that some form of God exists. If you wish to be a smart azz okay fine, nothing knew there but please think about it.
I'm going to offer some guidelines here as a way to establish some dynamics, take em or leave em.
-The earth is only one planet out of trillions of places that exist that contain life. You could keep it the way it is, or you could completely change it
-You are an eternal agency
-You as a soul, are not restricted to only earth in your experiences
-The universe is only one out of a series of multiverses
-There are several planes of existence, each plane is set up like a universe where there are virtually countless galaxies and planets
-There only one law that exists, its a moral law of cause and effect meaning that you can do whatever you want, but when you cause harm to any other soul you must reap the effect of that choice. If you don't like that law, tell me what law you would set into effect if you only had one choice
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@zedvictor4
Is a reasonable human based representation of a GOD principle.....I'll give you that much.Though one might suggest that, pure logical, data/energy does not necessarily need to be aware......Just sequentially correct.
Consciousness is self aware, and agency will always be innate to consciousness. If you strip away that which resembles being, then we are no longer talking about consciousness. Data is information, inanimate, but consciousness is the observer of logic and information and what applies rationale to it (animate). Data, logic and even energy cannot exist without consciousness as they are nothing. Data, logic and information can only be relevant with a user or an observer. And of course it is only logical that inanimate forces and information can do nothing in and of themselves.....hence consciousness, that which understands how to apply such things.
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-->@Stephen
" LOL! ". I don't know of many "deep questions" that only require or can be answered with simple yes or no answers.
That's because you lack creativity and depth. Here, I'll spit out a few just to give you some ideas....
Do you like being God?
Do you desire to be anything but God?
Are you content?
Do you co-exist with energy?
Do other entities exist within our physical universe?
Are you and each soul one and the same?
Is eternity independent of linear time?
Will I always exist?
Do you want to exist?
Does anything matter?
Do you like religion?
Are you lonely?
Do you dream?
Are your dreams and creativity fulfilled?
Are you pleased with your creations?
Will you recreate forever?
Is creation your only outlet as an expression?
Is everything in creation an illusion?
Have I always existed?
Will I be able to fulfill my created purpose?
Am I fulfilling my purpose in any way?
Have I made any positive impact in your creation?
Do you experience love or hate?
Do you feel anything?
Is nonexistence an option?
But is this deep enough for you. Why did god even bother creating anything at all in the first place?
For you probably, for me that is rudimentary, but it's good enough for me to answer because one, I see you have genuinely tried and two, it's not you trying to manipulate the discussion.
The answer goes back to the very nature of consciousness (which is the fundamental core of both God and the soul). The very nature of consciousness will always seek to express itself in some way and creativity is the main form in which that plays out. One way to answer fundamental questions about consciousness is to look within and ask yourself the same question.....why would I create anything in the first place?
Creativity, companionship and self expression will always be innate to consciousness. However with God, we begin at a conscious Reality that is totally alone meaning there is only one singular Reality and at some point the Creator is going to need some form of outlet to at the very least create the illusion of something other than Itself. There's two investments God has in creation one....it is a creative expression of Itself and an outlet for an artistic creative release and two, God gets to experience something other than being alone through every single channel of consciousness that exists including you and I.
But it goes so far beyond just you and I, there are countless levels of consciousness within creation everything from the very atoms and cells that make up all of life, and everything from insects, creatures, animals small and large and of course to each conscious entity and God has access to each and everyone of those experiences. Creation in other words is a way for God to be able to "do" something and really it is the only thing God can do. Away from creation there is nothing but self awareness, there is no mommy God or brother God or sister or lover, there is no place or location to visit. All that exists is an omnipresent self awareness.
Creation changes things, at least at a certain level for God. If you were primarily and fundamentally alone and you had the ability to create universes and isolate and confine consciousness to simulations wouldn't you "want" to do that? of course because it is genius! it is a genius thing that God can create an enormous simulation (and many more of course) and then create embodiments within that simulation, upload souls within those embodiments to have endless experiences of all kinds and in many different places and also have access to each experience. It would basically be like you creating a video game and characters within that game that you could upload yourself into and play that game. That sounds kind of childish but from God's perspective creation can be anything and there are no limits to what God can do with it.
But as I said in the beginning, creativity and self expression are innate to consciousness therefore God will always seek to express Itself in some way and creation is a no-brainer, it is obvious why God would do that if you understand yourself at all.
You may ask yourself, why would I compare myself with God to understand God? the answer is as I said above, you are tiny version of God on a molecular level within the totality of God but the very core of you is what God is. Your conscious experience isn't that different from God in terms of self awareness. God does not deal with the same things we deal with in a restricted physical body but your consciousness (soul) is of the very same nature as God. And whatever is innate to your own consciousness is innate to God as a conscious Reality. If you don't want to be alone God doesn't, if you need to express yourself through creative outlets so does God, if you want somewhere to go or be in another place so does God, if you want to experience anything so does God and God does that through your channel of experience (creation).
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@Outplayz
Lol well I was thinking you were going to have a series of really deep questions :D
I guess were coming from the view that God incarnates within a physical body? I mean I guess God would need fists right?
What about an unembodied consciousness? that would be more then like a battle between pure energies, that would be interesting...
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@Sum1hugme
If that's all you got that's all you got.
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@secularmerlin
If some god(s) cannot communicate ideas more complicated than yes or no then I am deeply unimpressed.
I have an AMA about God, the soul or creation topic already. This was to make the same idea much more simplistic. You don't strike me as the kind of guy to be impressed by anything so I'm not concerned about that. You've dumbed yourself down so far you don't believe anything can be known, even if something true were to be presented to you it would pass right between your ears without any thought or consideration. I'm unimpressed by you altogether. This place is in need of a serious make-over, the level of intellect is completely diminished and I'm not sure why the handful of you even post here to begin with.
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@fauxlaw
Let's put it this way: I'm content that I receive answers, but I'm careful to ask questions that are relevant to now, and I'm doubly cautious to express gratitude when answers come. I don't need to know about cheetahs just now. That's why it's on the shelf. I learned long ago to converse openly with my Father, and to maintain a running dialog. It's not easy to establish that kind of trust with him, and it's too easy to lose it by stupid questions like "do you exist?" That has already otherwise been answered, and a lot of time has passed in the water under the bridge since that knowledge was gained without having to ask that stupid question.
Yeah, I'm mainly just curious to see what people would ask God if they were to receive yes or no answers. I want to see where people go with the freedom to ask anything they want. I will post some of my own questions at some point here. It's funny, I've always been deeply fascinated to know all things about God, about the soul and creation. I've learned a lot about the Creator and I believe it has some relation to the fact I don't hide or keep anything from God or put anything between us. I don't put any filters in between learning about God. From what I can tell, many people filter God through religion including atheists, so they only understand how to view God through someone else's idea of God. I try not to do that and perhaps that confuses people because they have this idea of heresy lol, and anything outside of any particular belief is shunned.
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Steve, first of all you're not someone worth any discussion. I used to contribute to your topics when you first arrived and then I realized you had serious reading comprehension issues and you disregard the answers given to you. Second of all I never intended to answer the yes or no questions, at least for this topic, at least at first. I just wanted to see what people would ask God presenting questions that could have a yes or no answer. So stop being an ass as usual, I'm not going to entertain your silly questions with your motive of just trying to trick idiots into your nonsensical games. I only converse with sincere members and you're not one of them. The reason I answered some of the questions here is because I was asked politely.
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@secularmerlin
Hypothetically if some god(s) exist and if they hypothetically have an even incidental interest in the largest possible number of people believing in them
Who said that was the objective? most atheists are simply atheists because they've prepared a strawman for what they know about the Bible lol. They don't even know how to think about God without it. It is very fascinating.
my very first question is why not just provide unmistakable evidence of your existence which is objectively measurable such that there is no reasonable doubt of the data?
It's nonsensical, there is no distinction between what you experience as you are and what God wants to experience through you. When it is time for you to advance spiritually speaking, you will not be asking such dumb questions, they will be behind you. You won't need to be presented with anything, you will know God exists.
But back on topic, this thread was created to ask God any questions you want presuming God exists which require a yes or no only answer. You people lack creativity because you have your heads stuck in some one-dimensional concept or idea of God. Can you get beyond that? surprise me...
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@Intelligence_06
And this is without me even engaging the guy in any way lol.
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@fauxlaw
Not a yes/no question, but I want to know if cheetahs trip at full speed? that is honestly my number one question on the shelf for the proper time.
Seriously? if you could ask God any question, that's all you can think of? I have a whole list of questions lol, and those are just yes or no answers....questions involving detailed responses would be a whole separate list. I guess it's good you are content with what you know.
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@n8nrgmi
what is life like outside of creation?
Great question, I appreciate your inquiry.
This is also a loaded question and I want to remind you that creation is far more vast than anyone could imagine. So when I talk about the journey of the soul once it leaves the Creator we could be talking about a long, long time, in terms of linear time as it is experienced within creation. Creation actually has many layers, which involves countless experiences for each soul. Everything you would want to experience as an expression, as a dream, as a desire, as a creative experience, as a relationship, as a purpose driven goal, as a quest for knowledge or as a quest for learning about yourself ect ect all happens within God's created worlds.
You could spend just 80 years or so on this planet in the physical realm and then spend eons in heaven on another planet within the astral plane learning and doing many things that you might not even imagine yet. You could sojourn in another galaxy with a whole different species along with the souls of your loved ones for any amount of time, you could reincarnate on earth and you would never know it once you were reborn. You could spend thousands of years with Jesus in the Christian paradise if that is what your hearts desire is assuming you earned that place within creation, and you would learn many things and have many different experiences, have many various tasks and responsibilities. The picture I want to paint for you is that you understand that within creation the options are virtually endless as you leave this body and this world.
If you could imagine what they call a multiverse, which means that not only is there a physical universe but there are many universes. So if you can imagine that just our physical universe is comprised of trillions of galaxies, stars, planets, solar systems and many places of existence that man has no idea of the vast number and types of beings that do exist within our universe.....then multiply that many times over. Then there are universes that extend beyond such multiverses. These multiverses have more planets, more entities and more places to exist that you could ever imagine. The Creator has been creating these layers for an eternity, there is no end to such a dynamic creative force.
The impression I want to leave with you, is how small we really grasp creation, heaven or anything related to what we think exists. The reason for that is that I want you to realize that each soul has a very long journey, which includes existing within many different places and leaning many different things. You did not just pop into existence the moment your mother conceived lol, not even close. Whether or not you existed for long periods of time before you came here IDK, what I do know is that you came out of the Creator as a soul seed who was sent into creation, and before you is a very long path of developing and learning.
Outside of Creation is a single, omnipresent, eternal conscious Reality that encompasses all that exists. It exists as the culmination of everything you know and far beyond. You came out of the Reality that we call God, and while you are within that Reality you experience God as God is. You of course don't remember that, though your intuition knows it.....and your physical body could never withstand the full impact of an eternal omnipresent energy, you will always be apart of that conscious Reality. What is it like? it's hard to label or define a Reality not associated or that does not resemble what we experience through finite, limited bodies. Because of the restrictions, fear, pain, lusts, desires, needs, complications, the pull of carnality, natures instincts ect ect...but just imagine going very deep within yourself to a place of stillness and contemplation where maybe you go to find God in prayer.
Imagine detaching yourself from all emotions, all desires, all thinking, all illusions of creation and the constant struggle of duality. There is an alone state that many people never bother to recognize. Because as a single Source that God is, you are not separated from God, you are not distinct from that Reality. You are simply aware, you are the totality of all existence, you are pure consciousness beyond any embodiment or limitations of your individual mind or emotion.
Imagine having no burdens, no desires, no temptations, no responsibilities, no distractions, no plans, no pain, no hunger, no thirst, no feeling like you need to sleep or can't sleep, no needing to work to supply, no needing to generate any other thing except to simply exist and be aware of it. All souls come out of such a Reality, and are sent into a reality where they are subject to the laws of creation, physics and chemistry, duality, Karma and all that apply to having needs and meeting desires. This is the whole point of creation though, which is to have many options of experiences. This is why you left the Creator as a tiny seed to have many experiences, because what you may not know, is that God experiences everything through you. You are what gives God another option of experience.
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@Sum1hugme
Like relevant to something personal not impersonal, as if you were trying to get to know someone without any preconceived notions. Or trying to understand something about them, or even about you. For example, what if you knew you originated with God or came from God...what would you want or need to know? In other words it doesn't have to be about the Bible or what any proponent of the Bible teaches. Just what you would want to know about God if God existed.
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@Sum1hugme
Even though this was a yes or no challenge to God (in this topic)....... What personal questions would you ask if you had no knowledge of the Bible?
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@n8nrgmi
how can i guarantee that me and my loved ones will live happy for eternity?how would you etrnlvw, answer that?
Well I was planning on sitting back and just observing what questions people might have but since you asked so politely and sincerely I will answer that with a series of insights. From there you can deal with the implications, or ask further questions. One thing I will say though is don't worry, there is no bad ending for any of your loved ones or yourself.
oh it's a yes no thing. i'm interested in your thoughts on my last question. but as for yes no, i would ask.... 'does everyone have a happy eternal life?'
Happiness is relative. It's a word associated with duality, so with happiness comes sorrow. So TBH there is always the presence of both experiences within creation. Happiness then, is not always pursued as an emotional stimulation but as a contentment in relation to a larger picture, a completion of what the soul needs and desires through all of their experiences. Most souls are unaware they existed prior to their mothers womb as a soul, they came into an agreement with much of what they would undergo during their time in any given place.
Every soul is eternal, and through their journey they are to learn many things specific to that individual while they sojourn within creation. Through their journey they experience many situations, many places, many different scenarios some of which include happiness.
Eternity exists independent of creation, which then exists independent of linear time itself. So when you speak of eternity, are you conflating eternity with creation? one is a temporal experience and the other a Reality of existence for each soul. Duality is only present within creation, so then happiness is only associated with experiences within creation. So the question is very dynamic, your eternal soul as it exists independent of the created worlds does not recognize happiness as it is with sorrow, only contentment as it is with being unburdened because it also has no association with sorrow. Where there is no creation there is no duality, where there is no duality there is no happiness OR sorrow.
What does this mean? it means there are parallel experiences for every soul....one being eternal and one being subject to creation. The one being eternal has its home within God, the Creator, independent of creation (for eternity). And the other as it enters creation as an individual experiencing duality through many situations. Right now, your experience is confined to creation and will be subject to happiness as well as sorrow while you are here, in heaven or any other place within the created worlds. A lot depends on what each person sows during their journey for what they may encounter in their future experiences. If you're asking me do souls suffer eternal unhappiness in some place away from God my answer is no, that is a misconception, or flat out untrue.
Can souls suffer? yes, but it is relative to their condition and choices, not because they are doomed for eternal torture. For one, there is no place outside of the Creator, all of creation exists within God including beautiful places as well as bad places. Two, souls never suffer infinite punishment for finite crimes. Three, all souls will at some point leave creation anyways (which includes heavens and earths) at which point they are one with God where duality has no effect.
I'm not trying to confuse you in any way, I'm just trying to give you a more complete picture so you can ask the right questions. Souls find happiness in the contentment or satisfaction of their choices (in creation), perhaps in fulfilling purpose.....it's not necessarily an eternal state of mind so to speak. True contentment as it is with an eternal state of being is being unburdened by any emotional state of affairs. Some people might describe that as blissful, but not as it applies to being happy as compared to being sad, more like a state of being letting all those factors dissolve as being detached from the pull of duality (pain or pleasure).
But to answer your question as directly as I can, you and each of the souls you love will always eternally exist within God the Creator where they will always be unburdened, what they will experience within creation is what they came to fulfill. But you will always be within them, they will always be within you, and you all will always be within God and in that you find total peace of mind.
So there's two answers in a way, while in creation there will always be sorrow with happiness, but in an eternal sense (outside of creation) (which is the true home of the soul), no soul experiences anything bad.
Let me know if you have any questions about that.
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If you could ask any questions that would require a yes or no, what questions would you ask God?
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Moving on are you basically saying then that the soul and God are essentially of the same nature? or of the same substance?
That's right, because consciousness is only of the very same fundamental substance, property or source, there is no other source. It cannot be anything else and is not created by anything else......The soul comes out of God as an expression of Its own creativity and is then sent and confined to bodies within created worlds to become an individual consciousness. A tiny version of Itself! That soul then is like a seed, like a baby where everything it learns and experiences is confined by the body it occupies and the world it inhabits. For that time, located within time and space it perceives through the senses of that occupied vessel.
I will get back to you a bit later on, this is a very interesting discussion.
No sweat, thanks for being considerate, I'll await your replies :)
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Hold on now, it is the very fact that you CAN observe it, is what makes it relevant to you. You are observing it! we're just moving away from your personal observation point to a universal omnipresent scale of Reality.
Haha, I have to admit it is a very intriguing proposition. One that I must accept? I don't know I'm not sure about that, on the other hand I have no objection to it for any real reason. In order for something to exist, there must be something that is aware of that existence for it to exist? wow, that is something I'll think about. It does seem to account for a Creator and what omnipresence means, because really I never was totally sure about such a concept.
Omnipresence would mean then that everywhere something exists, presence is required for it to exist, hence God's omnipresence. Very clever sir. Obviously that would mean that nothing exists outside of God's presence.
Now this is where it gets interesting, to isolate consciousness there must be form! if conscious awareness is to have any point of reference to a specific location it must be confined to a form within creation. Consciousness then must be isolated to have an individual experience as one perceiving time and space within that simulation through a body. This creates individual perception obviously. If God wants a soul for example, to experience Its creation God would have to confine that conscious soul to a body within a created world. This is where we see consciousness existing within bodies within our universe, which of course creates the illusion that consciousness is dependent upon form, or created by a brain. But actuality it is the opposite, the body and brain simply confine conscious experience to a located point of reference they do not create consciousness they simply conduct it as components, but consciousness precedes any bodies within creation. This means that the soul first originates with God not any embodiment.
Moving on temporarily are you basically saying then that the soul and God are essentially of the same nature? or of the same substance? I will get back to you a bit later on, this is a very interesting discussion.
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This seems to be structurally sound, I think I get it in terms of logic and common sense but I'm not sure I fully believe it. Why? I don't know why, maybe it's because it's something I cannot personally observe.
Hold on now, it is the very fact that you CAN observe it, is what makes it relevant to you. You are observing it! we're just moving away from your personal observation point to a universal omnipresent scale of Reality.
On the other hand because it makes sense am I forced to accept it? you left me perplexed here, I guess I'll have to think about it.
Lol.
I want to get back to some of this but wait a minute, it just occurred to me that you're saying that God has no location or point of reference in time or space? so then consciousness exists independent of form?
Very good catch! finally a member who understands implications and can follow logic....this brings me to a whole other discussion all together. That's right though, if energy and consciousness co-exist then they also must have the same attributes! if energy exists everywhere so does God, and if energy exists within form and independent of form then so does God (consciousness). If God is eternal then so is energy, and if God is omnipresent then so is energy. Everywhere energy exists awareness exists and everywhere there is awareness there is energy.
So guess what!? that means we can account for why energy does what it does in creation! because energy is the force of intelligent operations, which is why it generates intelligent processes/productions.
Awareness does not need form to exist but form certainly needs both energy and intelligence to exist as they appear as processes. Form is only relevant to creation, and so consciousness must precede any created event or created forms. Well then obviously God exists independent of any created thing which also includes forms within creation. God cannot be subject to creation obviously, as that would mean that creation precedes the Creator. Not so, God can exist within form but is not subject to any form. In other words God can create form or embodiments to exist within but God will always exist independent of anything created.
Now this is where it gets interesting, to isolate consciousness there must be form! if conscious awareness is to have any point of reference to a specific location it must be confined to a form within creation. Consciousness then must be isolated to have an individual experience as one perceiving time and space within that simulation through a body. This creates individual perception obviously. If God wants a soul for example, to experience Its creation God would have to confine that conscious soul to a body within a created world. This is where we see consciousness existing within bodies within our universe, which of course creates the illusion that consciousness is dependent upon form, or created by a brain. But actuality it is the opposite, the body and brain simply confine conscious experience to a located point of reference they do not create consciousness they simply conduct it as components, but consciousness precedes any bodies within creation. This means that the soul first originates with God not any embodiment.
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Awareness is existence, without existence there is no awareness and without awareness there is no existence. The two are inseparable, there cannot be one without the other. For something to exist, there must first be something that which makes it relevant
This seems to be structurally sound, I think I get it in terms of logic and common sense but I'm not sure I fully believe it. Why? I don't know why, maybe it's because it's something I cannot personally observe. On the other hand because it makes sense am I forced to accept it? you left me perplexed here, I guess I'll have to think about it.
Nope not at all, energy is not created rather it is generated. What's the difference? well the terms created and generated are two separate things for starters. Creation is the beginning of something so if energy were created that would render energy as something that exists on a linear time scale like form, but energy creates form through processes and so energy precedes processes, in other words it is not a created thing. However there is only one other factor that precedes energy and that is consciousness, what we call God. Energy is generated by conscious activity so both energy and awareness (God) co-exist. And if energy co-exists with God then both energy and God are eternal. And if energy and God are eternal then they exist independent of time.Energy appears to us as the first cause because we cannot measure what precedes energy, or what co-exists with energy. All we can detect is the movement of energy, that is the vibrational quality of conscious activity what we call kinetic energy.
I want to get back to some of this but wait a minute, it just occurred to me that you're saying that God has no location or point of reference in time or space? so then consciousness exists independent of form?
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Okay first of all holy crap, I never considered eternity as a state of existence independent of time as you put it so simply. It seems to me that basically you're saying there is an unchanging Reality (fixed state of existence), which invokes changes within that Reality (processes occurring). And then those changes that occur are what dictate time? and the processes that occur are the results of energy which are the results of awareness AKA God/intelligence?
Well at least we're not going to have any reading comprehension issues here lol. That is what I'm saying, how do you feel about that? does it satisfy the intellect fully?
If there is no beginning or ending because there is no infinite past or infinite amount time passing wow, if that is true it answers a lot, and it deals with the confusion and paradox of an infinite past, or an infinite regression. I've never been able to get my head around something existing forever with no beginning but you gave me a solid answer to consider I'll give you props on that,
Excellent! let me know if you need me to elaborate.
but could you expand on this before I get back to eternity, we know energy as the only constant in the universe.
We know energy as the only constant that can be measured, but it's not the only constant. Awareness cannot be measured because it has no association with any other thing, it has no property that can be "detected" or measured and so it is assumed or speculated that energy exists alone. Awareness is existence, without existence there is no awareness and without awareness there is no existence. The two are inseparable, there cannot be one without the other. For something to exist, there must first be something that which makes it relevant
Are you saying then that energy is created?
Nope not at all, energy is not created rather it is generated. What's the difference? well the terms created and generated are two separate things for starters. Creation is the beginning of something so if energy were created that would render energy as something that exists on a linear time scale like form, but energy creates form through processes and so energy precedes processes, in other words it is not a created thing. However there is only one other factor that precedes energy and that is consciousness, what we call God. Energy is generated by conscious activity so both energy and awareness (God) co-exist. And if energy co-exists with God then both energy and God are eternal. And if energy and God are eternal then they exist independent of time.
Energy appears to us as the first cause because we cannot measure what precedes energy, or what co-exists with energy. All we can detect is the movement of energy, that is the vibrational quality of conscious activity what we call kinetic energy.
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Great starting point my friend!
Thanks bro, we can have a good dialogue as there are so many questions and factors to determine regarding these types of topics! I'll try and stay on course here.
The Creator is both infinite and eternal, however both infinity and eternity are misunderstood. Those terms are not relevant to time at all actually, believe it or not! (so there is no actual infinite regression paradox!). Infinity and eternity exist as a state of equilibrium or a state in which no change occurs. I'll explain below.Time does not exist eternally as a constant, rather only appears as a measurement alongside the movement of matter and the appearance of form. Where something begins and where something ends is where a linear frame of procession (time frame) occurs. Outside of that is a fixed constant reality where there is no longer a beginning and ending and so no linear progression. It is simply existence as it is where nothing appears and nothing decays and so it is void of what we perceive as a measurement of movement or the passing of events. There is an order of operation in existence as it applies to God's existence as the first cause. Here below is such an order beginning with the very first reality....- God = awareness (consciousness)- Conscious activity (awareness/intelligence) = energy (consciousness then energy co-exist)- Manipulation of energy (where process begins)- Appearance of form (where a linear time frame begins)- Time = measurement = now relevant- Death = no measurement- No measurement = no timeSo basically we have.....God = energy/ energy = creation/ creation = time/ time = measurement/ measurement = linear frame of reference/ linear time frame = a beginning and ending.Now notice that time is only relevant to the appearance of an event as it appears in order, it has no association to God (or eternity) and so God does not have a beginning point or an ending point. So the Creator exists as a constant not as a linear progression. Imagine a static or fixed Reality where you have the appearance of events, processes, form and time is simply the observation of those appearances and that observation is what we label "time".Time exists as a measurement of events unfolding but time is an illusion to the backdrop of reality (which is unchanging, static or fixed). The universe, or that which exists within the universe is nothing more than a moving picture play of energy with the birth and death of matter through form on top of a timeless fabric as we observe it as a measurement of "time" (passing).Preceding the appearance of energy as kinetic energy is the static eternal presence of consciousness, what we call God (without beginning or ending)....the conscious awareness of God out of which all things originate. In this preceding state of existence there is no infinite past or future in terms of how we measure time, because it is independent of the movement of events within the universe. It is indeed the backdrop behind the birth and death scale of material existence. This of course deals with the infinite regression paradox because there is no infinite past in terms of the measurement of time, God does not exist on a linear scale of time. God exists as an eternal fixed state of awareness.
Okay first of all holy crap, I never considered eternity as a state of existence independent of time as you put it so simply. It seems to me that basically you're saying there is an unchanging Reality (fixed state of existence), which invokes changes within that Reality (processes occurring). And then those changes that occur are what dictate time? and the processes that occur are the results of energy which are the results of awareness AKA God/intelligence?
If there is no beginning or ending because there is no infinite past or infinite amount time passing wow, if that is true it answers a lot, and it deals with the confusion and paradox of an infinite past, or an infinite regression. I've never been able to get my head around something existing forever with no beginning but you gave me a solid answer to consider I'll give you props on that, but could you expand on this before I get back to eternity, we know energy as the only constant in the universe. Are you saying then that energy is created?
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Oh well, forced into dialogue with myself I guess. In that case at least there will be intelligent discourse lol.
Dear Eternal I would like to start this discussion if you don't mind, does the Creator have an infinite eternal past? if so, what does an infinite past, no beginning really mean? or how can a thing have no beginning?
Great starting point my friend!
The Creator is both infinite and eternal, however both infinity and eternity are misunderstood. Those terms are not relevant to time at all actually, believe it or not! (so there is no actual infinite regression paradox!). Infinity and eternity exist as a state of equilibrium or a state in which no change occurs. I'll explain below.
Time does not exist eternally as a constant, rather only appears as a measurement alongside the movement of matter and the appearance of form. Where something begins and where something ends is where a linear frame of procession (time frame) occurs. Outside of that is a fixed constant reality where there is no longer a beginning and ending and so no linear progression. It is simply existence as it is where nothing appears and nothing decays and so it is void of what we perceive as a measurement of movement or the passing of events. There is an order of operation in existence as it applies to God's existence as the first cause. Here below is such an order beginning with the very first reality....
- God = awareness (consciousness)
- Conscious activity (awareness/intelligence) = energy (consciousness then energy co-exist)
- Manipulation of energy (where process begins)
- Appearance of form (where a linear time frame begins)
- Time = measurement = now relevant
- Death = no measurement
- No measurement = no time
So basically we have.....God = energy/ energy = creation/ creation = time/ time = measurement/ measurement = linear frame of reference/ linear time frame = a beginning and ending.
Now notice that time is only relevant to the appearance of an event as it appears in order, it has no association to God (or eternity) and so God does not have a beginning point or an ending point. So the Creator exists as a constant not as a linear progression. Imagine a static or fixed Reality where you have the appearance of events, processes, form and time is simply the observation of those appearances and that observation is what we label "time".
Time exists as a measurement of events unfolding but time is an illusion to the backdrop of reality (which is unchanging, static or fixed). The universe, or that which exists within the universe is nothing more than a moving picture play of energy with the birth and death of matter through form on top of a timeless fabric as we observe it as a measurement of "time" (passing).
Preceding the appearance of energy as kinetic energy is the static eternal presence of consciousness, what we call God (without beginning or ending)....the conscious awareness of God out of which all things originate. In this preceding state of existence there is no infinite past or future in terms of how we measure time, because it is independent of the movement of events within the universe. It is indeed the backdrop behind the birth and death scale of material existence. This of course deals with the infinite regression paradox because there is no infinite past in terms of the measurement of time, God does not exist on a linear scale of time. God exists as an eternal fixed state of awareness.
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Well this part of the forum is getting more monotonous by the day, however I'm still here if there are any unique and sincere questions to spice things up a bit. FLWR, Brother D, Stephen and Victor need not apply. I'll be searching for intelligent inquiries. BTW, these questions or inquiries are not limited to the Bible or any religious source! if you wish for a change in scenery from the day to day check in here thanks.
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@secularmerlin
The problem of sufferinghow do you resolve the problem of suffering?
The funny part about this is that everybody has heard the term Karma, yet nobody wants to acknowledge such a simple principle. And YET.....and yet it answers the problem of suffering so precisely and so logically and so humanely that it's hilarious nobody applies it to such a question both religious people and non religious. It seems every person understands natural cause and effect but when it comes to moral laws that apply the very same way everyone wants to play dumb.
Karma has more dynamics involved than one would assume at first glance though, because most people only focus on what they see in this one world so they are blinded by the illusion of just a single lifes experience not knowing that a soul can be subjected here on this planet several times over.....In reality the soul is eternal, reincarnation is a real factor, and the non-gender nature of the soul means that a soul that previously occupied a male embodiment can come back and occupy to suffer as a female......a rich man in one life can come back and suffer as a third world peasant subjected to starvation according to what any soul sowed during their previous occupancy. Some times Karma takes effect instantly and sometimes it takes effect in the next life, in other words it's not limited to any one lifetime.
Most people will then start to point to babies, women, "innocent" victims or even poor starving children in certain countries as a way to portray Karma or God's creation as some bad principle or failing system but babies, women and "innocent" victims are simply eternal souls inhabiting bodies and experiences that they themselves created. For example, many people might cry about a serial killer knocking off a hundred or so victims in their lifetime only to get a life sentence in prison and die a natural death or even simply get a death sentence void of all the torture they put others through....what they don't see is that the serial killer might have to come back and experience the same things they put other souls through during several lifetimes, perhaps as babies, perhaps as women, perhaps boys ect ect...according to who they chose to target. They themselves will become the target of such violence.
The far reaching principle of Karma can be so vast you never know where it is manifesting and how, it can appear in so many ways we can't even grasp. This is why we should never judge circumstances we see on this planet as being simply as they appear on the surface, because we are limited by not seeing or understanding the full scope of reality as it applies to those factors I mentioned above. One other very important factor to consider is that the earth is a place where the full scope of Karma plays out all over the world as opposed to more elevated and advanced places within creation. In other words not everywhere you sojourn will have such severe suffering taking place, because this is a low level part of creation where such low level activities take place and manifest this is where you will see a lot of turmoil.
Such a simplistic principle levels the whole playing field if one truly gets what I'm saying. Judging any particular situations then will be of no use, because again...without the understanding that each experience was somehow created through previous factors there is no way to be the judge of literally anything. Without the knowledge of seeing the whole picture there is no way to condemn any one experience.
Undeniably many people suffer and it appears to be a given that some people suffer in ways they do not necessarilly deserve.
This is exactly my point, you have absolutely no logical basis to determine such a thing if you don't understand what Karma means. All you can do is judge the effect but you have no clue to each cause.
Just as clearly not all suffering is the direct result of human actions.
Suffering will always come into play with the reality of duality (and how severe depends on where you exist), as two opposing principles collide and interact cause and effect will always be a factor. Suffering however is not the only side, wherever there is suffering the opposite side of the scale is also experienced. Creation cannot exist without contrasting forces, it is the very contrast between any principle that makes the other viable. Nonduality only exists as an experience within a singular Reality, where then you are completely present as God exists as a state of conscious awareness, transcendent of those factors.
To leave the full state of conscious awareness as the Creator is to enter creation. Each created soul left the Godhead to then enter creation, and where each soul enters is where you experience varying levels of Karma and duality.
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@Sum1hugme
The post is specifically about the failure of the Ontological Argument to include an empirical element. Without it, it will never bridge the gap between a specific concept and knowledge.
The point of philosophy is to bring awareness to the logical assessment of creationism, with or without an empirical element. Perhaps there's instances where an empirical element is warranted, perhaps other times not so much. In short, it doesn't need one, it basically draws attention to the logical error of its counterpart.....that to say God's existence is impossible is rationally and logically stupid. In other words there is nothing incoherent about God's existence in any possible world. So if it is possible that God exists in any possible world there's nothing incoherent or untrue that God exists in this world.
There's nothing about this assessment that could bridge a gap between pure logic as opposed to experience from observation it is true, but it is a moot point. All it really is.....is a logical game of types to create a logical platform.
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@zedvictor4
The ontological argument was aimed at an illiterate, uneducated, enslaved flock.
You are obviously poorly educated.
Who once upon a time, were easily duped into believing that any bull****
Obviously you don't understand what philosophy is and why theology is pursued.
that came out of the mouths of clergy, was divine.....Blah de blah de blah GOD....Oh and don't forget your tithe you scumbags.
You are obviously poorly educated. There were many contemporary criticisms put forward, however many current philosophers still entertain it. These types of arguments don't stimulate my intellect very much which is why I create my own but your assessments are even beneath the poorest of philosophically designed works. Your contributions are always laughable anyways.
Hopefully we've moved on since then.
Philosophers and theologians existed then as they do now. Some people still enjoy the game of the intellect to discover the limitations and potentials of our understandings, our thinking and the possibilities of what may be true. Others like you, rather just be a prick. Thankfully people like you are not all that exist.
Theistic philosophy and the possibility of God's existence is one of the most fascinating, intriguing and intellectually stimulating hypothesis there are, and creationism was and still is on the verge of being the most accurate propositions put forth for the origins of our existence and always will be. Get a life. If you're not interested get a new hobby, nobody needs your poorly educated opinions in a religion forum.
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@Sum1hugme
The point behind such philosophical arguments is not really to prove God exists rather to show that God must (most likely) exist through logical explanation and commonsense. Since we can't really prove it in an empirical sense we make it plausible by constructing rationale, which are more like thought experiments. They are never totally foolproof but they serve as guidelines to make succinct conclusions.
On the other hand I believe that spirituality is surely based upon observation and experience without any doubt, the problem though is that it's only relevant to an individual (as they become involved)...in other words it can't be demonstrated in a collective sense only in a personal way through application and then observation. But to show that accepting creation as a legit proposition is not just for brain dead morons who just believe in any ol baloney we present logical philosophical theories and arguments.
A common misconception is that Theism is absent of evidence but ironically that's not the issue, the issue is that most people don't know how evidence is defined and what evidence consists of believe it or not. The average atheist robot carries around this false assumption that there's just one form of evidence, and that it has to be demonstrated and peer reviewed by some scientists for it to qualify lol. So, if you don't provide them with some external link that is verified by some scientific research every time a logical premise or explanation is put forth for God it's simply rejected as some fanciful, deluded wishful thinking and then mocked and scoffed at regardless if that information is true. And because of that they would never even know if it were true, no matter how accurate and no matter how foolproof.
I'll be the first one to admit that some of the common arguments for God are not that stimulating or convincing, however the indicators (evidence) that God exists and the natural intuition that the universe is a product of intelligent work is near undeniable. And really the only thing materialists and atheists have going for them is the fact that God is not an immediately visible phenomenon right in front of their nose but that's barely a decent excuse. Because the indicators are so strong for a Creator existing that one has to be pretty deluded not to see it, or logically deduce it. I know that sounds like I'm being rude but it is so obvious it makes me wonder how they could be so sure of themselves and actually believe that creationism is nonsense and or for fools.
But to address the OP, lack of knowledge is not the problem either, neither the lack of intellect nor the lack of good reasoning. Actually we have more available knowledge for God than any other subject brought into question and it's been around for longer than any other proposition or philosophical inquiry. The problem becomes how do we (they) decipher what is legit and what can be discarded. The knowledge is there, however not all information is accurate and not all claims reflect reality. This is where practitioners and folks with above average intellect come into play, people with years of experience and keen observation. But I go as far as to say that even the average unbeliever has all the tools at their disposal and really they come right out of the heart of God anyways. There are many factors involved for the reason their understanding has been veiled, and why it's a seemingly impossible thing for them to grasp.
If God does exist though, and I only say "if" for those reading this, such arguments do reflect reality and do reflect knowledge of God's existence. There's levels here we are dealing with though, such arguments are only superficial and are meant to simply stimulate the intellect and derive logical conclusions for folks to consider as a bridge for finding reason to believe. Real knowledge, as gained through observation and experience comes through spirituality, which is the practical application of a transcendental reality beyond the reach of the immediate physical sense perception.
This is a relation that takes place within deeper conscious levels of experience as the physical world is nothing but the outer shell of a much deeper, much more refined and in depth field of individual witness. In other words you can't just walk down the block and find God hanging around somewhere, the individual must move their own obstacles that prevent them from resonating with the truth of reality and get involved outside the parameters of this outer shell that is nothing but a mask.
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@RationalMadman
If you had watched a few videos you would already be ahead of the game. You won't need supplements or vitamins. If people knew I don't just give out information that's not the most beneficial lol. Watch the videos man....if you had, we'd already be in much deeper discussions.
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@secularmerlin
Suit yourself. Remain ignorant that's not my fault.
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@Double_R
This is a logical contradiction. A static reality would have no movement, no progression. Beginning a process by definition requires progression.
I don't make logical contradictions, I've already dealt with all the angles involved. A static reality begins with nothing but awareness, observation of Itself and there is no progression of events because AGAIN, a progression of events is only relevant to creation where there is a beginning of something and an ending of that event. God is not an event and there is no beginning or ending of that Reality....Processes begin out of a static reality where there was no prior set of events. Awareness does not require a progression of events because they don't exist (yet), it's simply the state of being aware, once something is put into motion or effect then there is the motion of that event and the progression thereof....and where then time becomes something we can measure.
Beginning a process through awareness requires a progression but awareness in and of itself is the cause of that process, I never said that a process does not require a progression! but a process comes out of awareness where there was no prior progression of events outside of awareness itself. Awareness is what precedes a process, but nothing precedes awareness.
I would love to move forward in this line of reasoning but I want to make sure you get it. Honestly I'm tired of setting things before folks and there being reading comprehension issues or simply someone not catching what I'm saying. I don't just put things out there without first making sure all the angles are logically secure. Responding to theweakeredge at this point is worthless, he made several errors I'm not willing to put in the time to correct. If you catch on quicker I'd love to expand on this but I'm not getting my hopes up.
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@secularmerlin
What if my claim is that we do not know how it happened and that speculation is therefore all we are capable of?
As long as you admit all you have is speculation you should have no issue then with progressing with logical premises. Based on our "speculations" we move forward with what makes more sense, and what fits with reality. And inanimate forces creating intelligent universes is the first step in realizing that it's simply nonsensical. The rest is easy.
Keeping in mind our premises are only labeled speculation because we can't prove them to one another, not because one of them is not true.
What if I further claim that speculation absent evidence is a poor pathway to truth.
Is your speculation absent of evidence? I then feel even more pity for you. Maybe find a new pathway to truth?
Evidence defined as "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid" means we aren't the one's absent of evidence.
This may lean we don't have and cannot find an answer. I am sorry if this is an uncomfortable thought for you
In the grand scheme of philosophical frameworks there is nothing uncomfortable to me, that is not a factor....this is not a game of what makes me feel good, I'm not that simple minded and easy. If you want to have any intelligent discourse with me you will have to ditch the preconceived ideas right from the start. After all these years you should know better.
but really humans don't know much in the grand scheme of things and I would find a way to square myself with 'I don't know' if I were you.
If you don't know it's best you just admit it and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't have that problem as of yet in this discussion (I'll let you know when I do). We have access to all the information and facts as they appear straight from the Creator, nothing is hidden it's all there to put all the pieces together. Reality hides nothing for those who have no perverted motives or agendas for handling truth as it exists. Some have only a few pieces, some have many but don't know how to arrange them, some have none and won't look anyways, some feel fine not knowing, some want knowledge for advantages but the truth always evades them, some can't handle the truth ect ect...however the facts are always available and not possessing them has nothing to do with them not being known.
The question becomes will you recognize the truth when it is laid before you, and what will you then do with it?
Claiming humans don't know anything and can never know reality is a silly cop out. More so it's an insult to all the intelligent people who have diligently laid all the pieces of the puzzle before you anytime you are ready to put them together. Every time I read this nonsense I just have to shake my head and realize that people view truth as something intangible. But why? truth is simplistic, easy to digest, easily obtained.
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@Theweakeredge
Everything with you is speculation
Regarding the origins of existence everything proposed is speculation and interpretation of evidence as far as presenting a philosophical premise that accounts for it. Our speculations, your speculations and everyone else's (even though somewhere a speculation is true, there's no way to "prove" it is true). Is your idea of the origins of the universe not speculation?
As I always say....,materialism does not get a free pass, it too is speculation. I've created topics that explain this.
the big bang was the beginning
In order for something to begin something must have a cause to begin, I mean you can claim it just began just because it happened to spontaneously happen but that's speculation too. And I find inanimate forces and events spontaneously creating universes, planets, solar systems, ecosystems and animate creatures too far fetched to accept. I will agree with you of course that the Big bang was the beginning of our universe as we observe it, but how that began is where we will part ways.
Now you could say it's possible that time exists elsewhere, but you have no evidence to support that position. How do I know that? Because we can't gather data from any universe except for this one!
I know nobody pays attention to what I say but it's unfortunate because I show how all this comes together and works. I gave my premise regarding time in the "Does time exist" topic beginning with post #12......
You're right though, the Big bang was the beginning of "time and space" because time is only relevant to the measurement of events unfolding, which is only relevant to the appearance of matter and form (within creation/universe).
To put it plainly, God does not exist on any linear time scale, time ceases to exist in what I propose as a static Reality......which precedes the movement/expansion of the universe, creation and all that appears within the universe. This deals with the infinite regression paradox because there is no infinite past, there is only the creation of the universe which we observe as the passing of events (birth and death) and then there is a fixed Reality that precedes that. The universe then appears within this fixed Reality, as we do, and we observe "time" as these processes unfold. At least that is how we measure such events and we call that "time".
Do you not understand? The laws of causality do not apply before time, therefore these things do not apply - that's the point.
So basically, God being eternal exists independent of time (because again, time is only relevant to the universe/creation) so the laws of causality still apply because out of a timeless Reality things begin to exist, things begin and that makes time relevant. Time applies to what it is that exists within the universe, time ceases to exist before the universe because it is only relevant to how events begin and end. God has no beginning and ending because God does not exist within a linear time frame, rather a static Reality where God begins the processes of bringing things and events into existence. Outside of creation there is no passing of events, just awareness of God's Being.
We argue for causality because where there is a beginning there must be a cause, we observe this through the principle of cause and effect. We don't simply posit that the Big Bang began, and it needs no cause....because it is nonsensical.
There is no contradiction in saying that a causeless Reality caused something to appear because again we have two realities.....one that is fixed and one that appears. Eternity is not an endless past despite what people may assert, eternity does not exist on any time scale, however our universe does.
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@RationalMadman
From the perspective of Romans and Hebrews at the time, was Jesus a cult leader?
Well certainly from the religious leaders perspective of that era Jesus was treated as a rebellion or a threat to their institutions and they plotted to kill him from the time he began to really touch society in a powerful way. I'm sure they labeled Jesus all sorts of things, and he was fully aware that to bring about any change he was destined to be murdered, as was foretold even by him.
We see a common theme throughout history where heroic figures make political, racial and religious stances to usher in change of consciousness and we see them persecuted and even killed, but then their effect upon the world extends beyond their death. I don't know what it is about this planet and the souls that inhabit it....it's like they have to be forced to change, or some really bad things have to happen before something positive takes place. It's literally a continuous battle between the positive and negative forces of duality present here in this part of creation.
Religious systems which gain too much power will always eventually try and control through manipulation and force, it's really quite sad and pathetic because true spirituality is about freedom and independence. There's some decent qualities within the religious square at times, they gain good insights and wisdom but in the wrong hands what was once a good thing can quickly become something deadly.
If you follow the gospels it was obvious that the religious system and its leaders during that time had fallen away from the truth, fell astray from the good qualities meant to tie society together as a useful and healthy force. They had become corrupt, probably more than anyone was fully aware of. Jesus had a lot of courageous, ethical and intellectual qualities to stand up to that, and essentially being alone. Basically he was putting the power back into the hands of the people, supporting the outcasts and poor folk who stood no chance. As the story goes he was then followed, taunted and betrayed to find a way to end his life.
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@RationalMadman
Ah he's a raw meat diet advocate
No not really, he is a raw food advocate with first fruits, and then veggies. Fruits are the superior food source by far and are the most detoxifying (healing) as they are very hydrating, full of nutrition and nutrients, electrolytes and energic qualities. But with meat, it is an acidic diet so he stays on the alkaline side of chemistry and so if one must eat meat....it's more beneficial to eat it raw. Of course we are not talking about store bought products here, we are talking about eating it when an animal is killed. However, he is not at all a meat advocate.
, I know another of his school of thought (other guy is much angrier and hostile about it, in terms of his approach to modern science and the world). I'm not sure I buy all of what they're saying, especially not the anti-vax angle but I definitely understand the argument that we evolved eating and healing via natural plants and raw meat so genetically we can't deny that we're capable of surviving like that.
Well first of all, raw food is about paying attention to science and mostly chemistry. It's the pharmaceutical industry that's really the pseudoscience here. But it is bought and paid for, and the objective is to make natural, holistic methods look foolish, when in fact it is superior. So be careful who you listen to. We follow reality, nature and chemistry as it relates to the human body and health.
This guy I follow is a chemist, and a bio-chemist and has years of hands on experience. He has no motives or weird unscientific theories, his methods in other words aligns with reality not some quacky side show like the AMA. His clinic is renown for their cure rates and good ethical practices.
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@RationalMadman
I will. Some people who mock alternative medicine have no clue how we originally discovered what medicine is when we only had herbs at our disposal.
Lol, it's funny anyone would label it alternative medicine in comparison to the freak show of the dangerous pharmaceutical world. Not to mention the amount of deaths related to them. Many people are ignorant that God's herbs are created for the human body, as well as animals.
I am open-minded for sure, actually I am weary of just how powerful they can be (and have experienced it first-hand as I'm a very sensitive guy to biochemical things). Are you saying he sells mixtures or gives advice how to mix them ourselves?
Both, but he has his own product which is much more convenient, plus he is a master herbalist and has 50 years experience. When herbs are used with proper diet it is hands down the most effective, cost efficient and zero risk method to heal the body.
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@RationalMadman
Or what plant(s) does he recommend?
He grows his own herbs, makes his own formulas. He uses a variety of many different plants for different parts of the body.
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@RationalMadman
Yes he's an herbalist. I gave you the link because I think with the direction you are going this would help you further. All the videos are relevant...He uses raw diet and herbs to heal physical and "mental" ailments. He teaches about the role of glands, how to get them healthy and reverse all health problems with the use of foods. He has the best quality herbal formulas you can find, plus he's quite a smart fella. Watch some of the vids if you get time.
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@RationalMadman
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@Bringerofrain
Is this like a game. We have brother thomas pretending to be a theist to make theists look dumb and Steven pretending to be an atheist to make atheists look dumb.
LOL, well it's either that or they really are dumb. Either way they're dumb.
Is anyone just willing to have an honest discussion in the religion section without trolling?
Maybe, but while these two monkeys play with themselves all over the religion forum I'd rather wait until some intelligent people begin to post. It doesn't appear we're lucky enough that they would bore themselves to death. I'm not sure what is worse, Stephens severe reading comprehension issues, or Brothers super annoying writing template.
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@fauxlaw
to suggest multiple genders as a matter of personal and social choice, regardless of the genetic indicators at birth.
Not that you will agree with anything I am going to lay out here and this will be very unorthodox but....
One of the biggest obstacles for religious folks related to this concern is that they believe that God has some gender role or some feature that resembles being a male. Likewise they probably feel that a created soul is given some physical feature that determines that soul a male or female. What they are blinded to, or ignorant about is the fact that male and female features only appear as related to physical bodies prepared for a soul by their parents during conception. A soul exists independent of physical bodies, was created by a Reality that precedes created forms... souls came into that equation as having no physically prepared features that determined whether they were male or female.
The ignorance is further perpetuated by the fact that most fundamental religious folks shun the concept of reincarnation, where a soul can inhabit any number of physical embodiments including both male and female, or any other number of species and roles. We've had this discussion before and I know you believe that God has some physical body and body parts that make God a male lol, so really there is no talking sense into you. Maybe I'm just giving readers something more to digest then.
In essence, a soul who has inhabited a physical body may have no connection to the physical features it was given through birth and despite social pressures that soul may completely reject the idea that it has to conform to a certain role. And actually in most circumstances a soul will probably hide their innate feelings of having no real connection with their prepared sex features, and you may never even know that. Others, as time allows more freedom you will see more and more that there are many souls who feel as if they relate to something in contrast to what they may have been born with. And while it may seem like some sort of abomination to people like you and I, in truth it makes no real difference, because it has no real relevance to the person or soul.
A soul can play whatever role it wants to, it has no real obligation to any particular gender or sex. I mean in reality who really cares what a soul chooses other than those who think it's weird or abnormal? what difference does it make to you and I?
I admit, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the whole scenario of say.....a female wanting to change their genetic features to the opposite sex and playing a role that is opposite to what they were born as, but that's just because I happen to relate more with a male role and I happen to have a male body. So to me personally, I feel I fit in with what I am currently. But that's just coincidence and I have no plans of judging anybody for what they decide. And actually I know a girl who feels they wanted to be male and has undergone operations to make it possible, and that soul to me is still a great person. She looks like a male now lol, but I still have the same good feelings towards him. So I don't really have any say in the matter, who am I to dictate what experience they wish to have?
In creation, there must always exist the principle of duality in all things and this is where you find the contrasting roles of dual forces and attributes. God has no contrasting features of duality because God exists as a single unit. There is no other thing that can make God distinguished from some other feature. This only applies to creation where we have the contrast of opposing forces and opposing sides to create the illusion of there being an actual separation of events. Souls come directly out of the heart of God, they have no relevance to created things until they are sent into created worlds where they inhabit created embodiments prepared for them to experience worlds.
So while God, including souls may have distinct attributes or characteristics they gravitate towards they have no physical features independent of creation. What happens is, is when a soul inhabits a body in creation their perception is glued and confined to that experience and they become ingrained to believe that they are that which they appear as. So their perception of being "male" or "female" is dictated by what they appear as in a physical body. The majority of the time this works just fine...the soul "thinks" they are male or female because they inhabited male or female features and that's what they are.
That's kinda how creation is supposed to work but not always, because a soul who happens to relate more with the female principle may be inhabiting a male body and to them they have no real connection to that role. This is where you begin to see what we label as an abnormality, where a soul is no longer playing the role they happen to be born as. And to make things worse, a soul could have inhabited a female body in a previous experience. They then left that form, only to engage in an entirely different body in another place and now they still have a conscious connection to their previous role.
In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter, only to those who hold some sort of moral value in the physical system of physics but in reality it has no relevance to the actual soul which role they prefer. At least it can't be deemed moral or immoral by anyone judging the situation, it is what it is and it only matters to the one experiencing it. When they leave their physical body behind they leave their male or female role behind.
Again I must point out though, that a soul can gravitate towards attributes that appear feminine or masculine and creation has two distinct principles of feminine and masculine and they both serve a purpose. But as far as soul goes, they can embody any features given to them despite what attributes they relate most with. A soul can relate more with the feminine side of creation and embody a male featured role....hence you have transgenders and homosexuals, who may have a male body but be attracted more towards the male principle, or have a male body and be more inclined to the female principle.
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@Bringerofrain
I'm not even sure Brother D@#&head is even who he claims to be. The thought crossed my mind he's really an atheist pretending to be a fundamental Christian to make them look stupid. I simply ignore the old fart.
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