ILikePie5

Joining Pie in claiming functional illiteracy? I've been crystal clear for quite awhile that I used my motion detector on whiteflame, not the role blocking second half of the power. Hence I got the result that whiteflame did not move, and subsequently you were not roleblocked. With how you're acting, I wouldn't be surprised if you're now going to change your story to having been roleblocked by me.

I'm saying how the PM described it. Whereas you and Lunatic are claiming that you are privately mod confirmed RB/messenger/day cop who is right that Joebob was actually scum in spite what he looks like in the graveyard etc... I can't keep track of how many traits you two have added to your role. It's insane.

Again, your role apparently told you with certainty that Joebob was guilty in DP1... and he flipped innocent, but we're just supposed to forget?

As stated literally on the first post of this page: "Me not saying motion detector right away, is because the mod did not call my role a motion detector. He called it "The Pin!" and went on to describe the two tiered function of it."

For now, suffice it to say that I believe the argument that Barney would necessarily have obtained some information from Austin about why his role (whatever it is) failed, I just don’t know if I buy that Austin volunteered even more information, i.e. the kind of breakdown that would have included specifics on what other roles would fail that were largely distinct from his. If he had received that information, I don’t think he would have then failed to claim Motion Detector knowing that I would have townread that claim, nor would he have any reason to claim the attached RB.

I still just don’t see it as the most plausible set of circumstances that could lead to this conclusion, and frankly, I don’t buy that he somehow intuited a lack of movement on my part. He would have had to receive that information from Austin.

So if he is scum, either Austin gave him just enough information to know that the RB failed, which makes me question why he would take the logical leap to saying that I hadn’t moved and then bank wholly on that leap for his claim, or Austin gave him way too much information and Barney, for reasons I cannot fathom, chose to only use a bit of it and give a claim that would inherently set off alarm bells to boot, given that it’s hard to see a town RB and think anything else.

Honestly I am not convinced. 

Alright, that makes sense. I’ll stick with Vader for now, and you’re welcome to join me. I am sorry, but I completely forgot how me and Vader can confirm you, can you say that again?

As for Pie, a lot of his reasoning depends on me being a mind reader who knew ahead of time that whiteflame would have the cop ability last night (which if scum and I knew he had any investigative power, he would have been high priority for the NK).

Even had I the ability to detect roles (quite possible scum used such an ability on me; and yet they still won't directly counter claim since we're not at mislynch and lose yet... mislynching me would put us there), it would not have detected the item he was given, and I would have not known last night to use any non-blockable power on him. ... The truth doesn't align to their narrative, whereas their narrative is questionable at best.

Me not saying motion detector right away, is because the mod did not call my role a motion detector. He called it "The Pin!" and went on to describe the two tiered function of it.

I called it a weak investigator to know if someone moved, someone else who knows the game better than me knew what type of weak investigator that is. When tagging you and Vader in a post, I even referred to that Vader would see someone was targeted by the pin, rather than expressly a motion detector. Of course, the desire to kill any investigators is key for scum to win.

Ok, here it's possible he's an inventor, messenger, roleblocker, mod confirmed to the target hybrid... Pigs occasionally fly as well.

I mean… no? Did anyone confirm that? Earth visited me, Barney claims he did.

Just… could you wait? I’ve been on here all morning and I’m still trying to process a good deal of information. If it gets near to the end of the DP and the votes are as they currently stand, unless I come to a very different conclusion than I am now, I’ll hammer.

Dude, I’m sincerely so tired of you mischaracterizing my argument that, at this point, I just want to drop it. None of what you’re saying here has been my position. I called out the issue with having so many confirmable roles earlier, and how that means not all of them can be town. I haven’t discounted behavior, either, but I do (and should) take results and actions into account. Just because you disagree with what I’m prioritizing in my reads doesn’t mean I’m dismissing large swaths of information, or expecting the game to solve itself, and sincerely, I resent that you think that’s my mindset.

Anyways we have limited time remaining. I agree with suspicion on supas role but I’m honestly still pretty convinced Barney is scum and supa can be lynched tomorrow if he doesn’t yield results or if the results don’t make any sense. I don’t think my vote is moving into anyone else besides maybe mixer this day phase for buddying Barney and overall just lack of contribution to the game

Like i said before, it’s mostly just that he did give us his role (albeit after a little proding), but his claim seems pretty solid to me, but like said, change my mind.

I wouldn’t go for Barney, probably just because I think he has a pretty good claim, but change my mind by a means.

I've been convinced for a little while that the scum team is either you and Luna, who claim to have largely confirmed each other, or Barney and Vader. PoE comes down to you four at the moment, with Moozer as a less likely outlier. So the flip should be informative regardless, particularly if Moozer uses his role.

I'll have a decision on this by the end of the day. I don't plan on letting the DP go by without a lynch, regardless.

Who would you have me use it on?

For now, I'm going to Unvote. I'd be willing to consider Vader as a lynch right now, so that's less of an issue. If I'm misunderstanding something about Barney, then Vader's flip and your claim would at least give me some basis for reducing my PoE. I don't think Barney is confirmed by any means, but I'd need that kind of information to give me more reason to push on him.

I just find it funny that you ignore any variable that could mean barney is scum

I'm literally asking you to explain what variables you see that could explain these results, and your response is to rub in my face that I didn't think of them. Why?

So your answers come down to:

Like maybe him asking the mod how a role like yours would work and whether it would count as a visit. He could have gotten the same answer as you from the mod before claiming his result. 

The mod could have offered up essential details of how a role he specifically defined works such that he effectively received the same information the person who used it got... then he sat on that information for much of the DP, only choosing to reveal it under great pressure later. I guess if we're assuming bastard modding to the extreme where everyone who asks receives a detailed set of information about how a role works...? You were so dismissive of the mod actively giving information that could solve the game, but now you're talking as though Austin's giving that information out to everyone who asks.

He could have been lucky in guessing that it didn't count as a visit.

That's an incredibly lucky guess considering he had no basis for making that call and none of what I said during the DP before that hinted that my using it didn't count as a visit. Almost any other choice would have been a far safer bet, but you want me to believe he just lucked into the perfect guess with the greatest degree of risk?

Your are dis-regarding him way too easily. 

I'm not disregarding anything, that's why I'm making a big fucking deal out of this and asking you, specifically, what could explain it. So far, despite your claim that there are "a million ways barney could be scum," I'm not seeing a lot of explanations for this series of events.

What do you think about the two town roleblocker thing?

I'm still not clear that there are two RBs. Both you and Vader have mentioned this. The only explanation I've seen for why there must be someone other than Barney who has an RB is the somewhat confusing breakdown of the Mathematician role you mentioned before, and I'm not sure how much I buy of that to begin with.

If that's the case, then I sincerely don't understand why you're holding back on claiming to establish that Luna is town. Maybe there's some other facet to your role that would allow you to confirm yourself as well and that hasn't been used yet, but it shouldn't prevent you from explaining how you are this certain that Luna it town based on the other aspect of your role. Luna keeps saying that he knows he was RB'd and that he can virtually confirm that the person who did it was town, strongly hinting it was you. Can you just confirm that?

• Pie - Basically either Pie is scum, or is really bad (not to say outright horrible) at this game. The truly excessive tunneling, and doubling down any time he got anything from it... The result of actually giving him information isn't shifting his vote to pressure anyone who has given less information, it's a desperate push for a mislynch. While mislynching me is not as easy as pie (pun intended), he's used me being busy DP1 to justify it when that has zero barring on if I am or am not town.
  
  And of course the communication with Lunatic should speak for itself., to include Lunatic outright telling everyone that Pie was not really tunneling... If nothing else were true, it'd still be true that Pie is obsessively tunnely on me.
  
  Lunatic says Pie is a RB and "100% town," whereas Pie strongly hints to be an inventor. Too damned much doesn't fit.
  
  Regarding Joebob, while Lunatic initiated the wagon, Pie largely lead it, even claiming he was certain Joebob was scum (others seemed to more of accept killing a low utility townie because not lynching is not an option to most).
  

That at least makes sense with the role. I haven't actually asked whether my use of the chess engine counts as a move. I'm going to inquire about that. Who else did you select? And would that register as you visiting both players, even if the RB fails?

So, I'll be blunt: I'm not voting Barney unless something dramatic changes. When Austin sent me that PM detailing how my investigation worked (after the fact), I assumed it was because someone targeted me. It's possible that the person who did that targeted me with an RB, that's literally on the list of actions he said would not affect mine. What was also on the list, and what I left off just in case it came up, was Motion Detector, the role that Barney just claimed.

At most this should be null. Barney is claiming information that's been made publicly known in the day phase since the first page. It's funny you would jump to the conclusion he was town and mod-confirmed to you here only. That would be rather convenient, but yeah doesn't seem like Austin would do that. 

Austin messaged you about it already, (presumably) to prevent a mess wherein I accused you of not moving, when that item didn't count as an active move.

So, what you’re assuming is that, somehow, Barney discerned from the limited information I gave within the DP that I used the chess engine, but in my use of it, I didn’t move? He somehow figured that out? Also, to be very clear about this, we’re talking about bastard modding either way. Austin delivered this info to me after the start of the DP, basically confirming that a role was used on me that fit that description. Either the person who used it was scum or they were town, but the confirmation was there regardless. The series of events fits far better for a town Barney than it does for a scum Barney.

How are you jumping to that conclusion or the conclusion he is town at all? How does it fit town Barney more than scum Barney?

c: Let's put all this together. So, according to you, Barney somehow intuited that I didn't move. He specifically chose the Motion Detector, the one role listed in my PM from Austin that I didn't state would be ineffective when used on me, so he just lucked out picking that single role to use on me that Austin had confirmed wouldn't produce a result if used on me. That's the only way Barney's scum based on your logic: he somehow figured all this out based on a pair of posts that gave none of this information away. It has nothing to do with him claiming town RB. It never has.

He targeted me. He didn’t see that I moved. That’s either a Tracker, a Motion Detector, or some derivation thereof. I sincerely do not give a fuck if his role actually says “Motion Detector” - it does not change much since, like I said, it still means that Barney got an accurate result when I used my role, which I would argue is not what someone else would expect upon seeing the information I was given.

Now, let's assume Barney's scum. That would mean that he saw my claim at the beginning of the DP and made the decision to select a role that would tell him if I had moved.

Based on the information I had provided up to that point, that would have been a supremely ballsy move. He knew I had used a role like Cop on Earth. He knew that that would likely result in movement on my part. He nonetheless chose to claim a role that would monitor movement and a target for that role that had actively claimed they had targeted another player successfully.

He would have to somehow know in advance that my using the "chess engine" would not act as a movement. Can anyone explain to me how he would have intuited that from any of the posts I made before he clarified his role? Because I can't. Maybe this is just the craziest scum tactic I've ever seen and Barney just targeted me with something else during the NP, failed, and just went for it for unknown reasons. If so, more power to him, that's quite the gambit.

Yeah just gonna come out and claim Even Night Voyeur. On even nights I visit a player to see what actions were performed on them. I was going to test this out by picking someone at random and outting them. 

This is also why I was sus of JoeBob because I thought his claim and mine would be very OP, but considering how many logical inconsistencies there are with this game, I think that it just happens that balancing and other things were off

Same. I think I would have to reveal some stuff in order to make that case for other townies to also buy this logic though. Should I reveal? Or at least partially reveal the part relevant here?

yeah you were right about him being a roleblocker though. As mafia, I can see if he straight out claimed roleblocker he might think that was more scummy than outlining a roleblocker with specific function like this. But do you find it odd that there would be multiple town roleblocking roles? 

Yeah… that’s not what he claimed at all….

Yes, and given the nature of how it confirms me, it also strongly supports my alignment.

As my character very clearly gives away my role and I can confirm myself (character, role and, most importantly, alignment), I would prefer not to.

Alright.

Right now, I’m not liking that the number of supposedly confirmable roles exceeds the number of people who could be town, particularly given Earth is basically confirmed town and Barney a pretty solid town lean based on his claim. Moozer claimed a confirmable role, and both you and Pie claim you’re confirmable. It’s doubly strange that so many of you claim to be confirmable, but only by DP3.

So that leaves Luna as the only person who hasn’t claimed a confirmable role. Guess he’s next. 

Unvote

VTL Luna

Unless anyone can think of a better way to go, I’m going to need that role claim at this point.

No offense pie, but I’m calling bullshit on that. You may be right about having a complicated role, but it just seems to ridiculous, and you make no sense. Anyone who wants t vote with me can, but this is mostly just me voting with my conscience, even though I wont get anywhere.

As would I. There is some possibility that Barney tried to RB me, got pissed that it didn't work, talked with Austin and got him to send me these details to explain it. Possible, but unlikely. I don't think scum would then push for Austin to send me a message like that. I certainly don't see Barney then outing himself as having the RB. Maybe he's pulling an incredible gambit, but I don't buy it based on the information we have.

What I find harder to believe is that Austin would actively facilitate scum like this by sending me that information after the night actions played out. It's not the best that it came out after the beginning of DP2 to begin with, but it lines up with Barney's telling of events. Maybe Austin would do this, actively affording scum an alibi for their actions that just so happens to include a fake claim that Barney actively used. Right now, I don't buy it.

An inventor is not the same as a cop; most likely it was only a single use of that power. And the tracker was a particularly weak variant.

But you're committed to killing towns investigators...

You actually. You were key to mislynching JoeBob. If you have a complex role like he and I, then I would expect hesitation when he full claimed early something so unexpected by normal game standards.

Even you should realize that killing town is scummy.

And yes, for your confirmation I will target someone else tonight (have to spell that out for everyone else. If you are scum, then NKing me and saying you were RBed would be a nice way to buy time).

That would explain the message I received from him. Never mind about detailing the specific target you chose or how your movements would (or wouldn't) register. 

Why do you insists on only claiming tomorrow? 

Why not now?

Seems like a pretty clear stalling tactic to me

Anyways, until you do claim, I would have everyone else at least take your claims with a grain of salt, and I would still like you to claim now, so I’m keeping my vote.

You might have a reason, but it seems like pretty clear stalling to me, and that is super counterproductive if your with us.

You really can't? I have a dozen or so notifications notifications from Pie with his BS bullying tactic. When someone else (Lunatic) without being a bastard simply asked, I gave information.

It's a policy of not rewarding Pie's lameness. 

Adding to it, Pie gaslighting claiming he's already done a partial claim... But also not saying when and where... I mean either of us could have missed it, and he could have missed the list not including it... But all three seems unlikely if he's actually provided information.

Further, Pie seems certain as to what my role is from my character claim, which makes the point of pressuring me more moot.

...

Anyways I'm a weak investigator roleblocker hybrid.

Each night I select two players, the first of which I get a notification if they target another player (I don't know which player). The second gets roleblocked if the first moved.

NP1 watched whiteflame, who did not move, so my roleblock did not trigger.

No offense to you, but you have been pretty aggressive on hounding claims out of people.

Not that it's necessarily bad, it's just a little suspicious, and you haven't really given us a big claim either, so I think I have the right to be at least a little sceptical. I do agree with you that we need a hard claim barney, but I would like one out of you too before you go asking for other people's.

I totally agree with you about pie here. If you can give us a better claim, I'm with you if you want to go after him next, but I need that claim first. 

You obsessing over one person for information, then when information is given demanding more and more… You’re damned obvious in trying to get a mislynch. Of course, you’re welcome to have your scum buddy out themselves by laying down the hammer.

I hate to have to say this publicly, as yes I can see how you can view that as a role blocker. But I can also see that justifying a protective role. At any rate I don't really see the harm in him just coming out with it at this point, because I think mafia would have picked up on that by now as well if he isn't mafia. Also we already have an outed cop giver in earth, so the POE from mass claiming right now might be more beneficial to town.