ILikePie5

You Americans should care because Ukraine is a Western ally.

It may not be for long anymore.

Russia is a systemic adversary of the USA. Letting systemic adversaries violate your interests, will encourage them to continue at your expense.

The USA has a reputation of abandoning allies. Abandoning Ukraine will strengthen that reputation.

The West is in part responsible for the crisis, among other reasons by putting Ukraine long in the waiting chamber for joining NATO.

Americans should support Ukrainians because thats the right human thing to do. Their humans and we should support other humans. I went to a Pro-Ukraine rally in Detroit yesterday, and made a " Putin is a dictator" sign. I didn't know much about Ukrainian culture but it was liberating. They have such a beautiful culture. They are fighters. There's beauty in that. Persisting and fighting even when it seems like all odds are against you. I respect Ukraine and their culture. They are amazing people. We should be their allies and stand in solidarity with them. 

We're not defending Ukraine, we're defending democracy and sovereignty. Why is that so difficult?

The bottom line is that Russia just  invaded the sovereign territory of Ukraine.

Ukraine is in NATO lol

Putin  has been invading Ukraine in slow motion since Ukraine pushed out Putin's puppet government in 2014.

Putin invaded Georgia using similar justifications.  If successful in the Ukraine, Putin has already made the same justifications for absorbing Belarus and Lithuania.

It's not an either-or. We can do both.

Just because a country that has great power doesn't use it responsibly doesn't mean that the saying is false. The existence of responsibility does not imply that the responsibility will be met. Also, getting "ripped off" is a rather callous way to describe trying to save lives.

In some places you might, but it's completely beside the point. This isn't a question of law, but of morality.

It's not an either-or.

Again, just because we can't help everyone doesn't mean we shouldn't help anyone.

You underestimate my power. Put me in France, and I'll use so much cheese the French will wine.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Well, the first reason is simply that we can afford it. The US government wastes billions every year. It can afford to throw a few billion at a worthy cause.

The second reason is, if I may be permitted a little cheesiness, "With great power comes great responsibility."

If there was someone getting beat up in front of us, and we could help them with very little risk to ourselves, I'd like to think that most of us would help.

In Ukraine, there are 44 million people who are being attacked are faced with the prospect of foreign domination and subjugation, whether directly or through a puppet regime. We can help at very little risk and, relatively speaking, very little cost to ourselves. When you can do the things that America can do, but you don't do them, then when the bad things happen, they happen because of you. It's true that we can't help everyone; it does not then follow that we should not help anyone.

By the way, does anyone have any cheese? I think I'm running out.

Even with MAD, war nearly broke out several times. So while it's true that the USSR probably did not plan on nuking the US, that was because they feared the consequences of doing so, not because they lacked the desire or will to fight. In the modern situation, NATO very clearly lacks the desire to fight, and could probably only muster the will to fight if directly attacked. Even then, they might just shrug their shoulders and say, "It's just the Baltic states. They're not worth a war." During the Cold War, NATO and Russia were threats to each other that were only held back by the even greater threat of a nuclear holocaust. Today, NATO is only a military threat if one of their member states is attacked, and only an economic threat when non-member states are attacked/threatened/annexed.

Ukraine refused to join Nato, so really their own fault, but we should pull out of nato anyway. The founders wanted us to be isolationist. Spreading democracy is just code for imperialism and is highly unethical, if these people in other countries wanted democracy, they'd have it 

Though I think bah, defense can be offense, and offense defense.

Flipping countries near Russia, to align and vote against Russia,

To spread culture and values at odds with Russia's own,

To encourage Russia to break apart into smaller, weaker, easier to manage states.

Ooh! I know:

2) NATO has nukes, which means it's a threat to Russia, regardless of whether NATO is likely to use them on Russia. By this logic, Pakistan is a threat to Monaco, India is a threat to Nigeria, and Israel is a threat to Honduras. Isn't this fun!?

You have to admit NATO has been very passive-aggressive in their quest to secure a hegemon since 1990 that might include assimilating an unwilling Russia as well.

To be quite honest, I'm not sure what you mean. What is NATO hegemony even supposed to look like? Everyone getting together and saying, "We promise to spend X amount of money on defense and defend each other from invasion"? Where's the hegemony in that? How would they force an unwilling Russia to assimilate into it? What would "assimilation" mean in that context?

So it's within Russia's interests to invade Ukraine based on the possibility that 10 years from now, despite all signs to the contrary, NATO might invade? That's so thin it makes paper look thick.

I don't see how it is. If we're judging countries and alliances as threats based on what they might do in the future, regardless of the facts of the present, then why wouldn't the US be a threat to Canada? It's a well-armed neighboring country. Of course, based on the present facts, the US doesn't seem likely to invade, but that might change in the future. How is this different than the logic you're using to justify NATO being a threat to Russia?

I am pretty sure Putin is using "NATO aggression" as a pretext to getting Black Sea access.

A buffer is only needed if there is a threat of military invasion. Unless you think NATO is going to invade Russia, this isn't a valid reason to invade Ukraine.

No, I wouldn't feel threatened. If I were Putin, all I would need to do is not annex, invade, or threaten to invade, and NATO would not be a threat. Also, by this logic, Canada should be really scared of the US and should try to find a buffer. After all, the US has a long border with Canada and is really well armed. Sure, there are no signs that America will ever invade, but hey, intent in the present means nothing if future intent is possible. Anyone know where Canada can get itself some more tanks?

There are words here making vague references to "perceived threats" without even attempting to explain why Putin should perceive NATO as a threat. And even if we assume that NATO is a threat, invading Ukraine does absolutely nothing to counteract that threat. If anything, it makes it worse.

Let me pose the question this way. Suppose Putin didn't annex parts of other countries and didn't invade or threaten to invade any other country. Would NATO attack Russia? If the answer is no, then NATO is not a genuine military threat to Russia.

That situation is not analogous to the current one. In the Cold War, there was a constant risk that the other side might attack. There is no risk that NATO will attack Russia.

True.

How is that a threat to Russia? Be specific, please.

Trump supported LGBTQ+ rights and I supported him and so did you. Therefore bad logic

To date: no sanctions on Putin. Zero sanctions on Russian Oil.

You want Russia to invade a country that is literally Orthodox Christian in nature, which is very anti LGBTQ+ which another of the same country. You make no sense. You want to kill millions of innocent lives that agree with your ideology to combat the west

I would love to know if any of these people arguing “Russia invaded because Biden is weak” could explain what exactly is it that Biden is not doing which Trump would be doing to stop all this. Besides of course ranting with all caps on Twitter.

I'm not an aggrevationalist neocon

Why should we involve ourselves in Ukraine? 

Do you have any actual facts and logic to back that up, or is that just what you heard on Hannity?

Good to know you are actively rooting for innocent lives to be killed for your own self gain. 

All of this is happening because of Putin's aggression and desperate need to reinstate the former USSR.

Period. Full Stop.

FFS. In 2020 I had a choice -- I could vote for weakness or for cancer.

You actually think Trump would broker peace? 

By that reasoning Mexico should get Texas back if they really want it and France should get Louisiana back if they really want it. Simply because you don't like the Constitution.