ILikePie5

It should not be surprising that when we separate the men from the boys GP and Pie come off as aborted fetuses.  

Respecting the struggle that many people spend their entire lives dealing with and showing that respect by allowing them to identify based on how they see themselves and live is not what any reasonable person would categorize as an emotionally driven position. It’s logic 101; respect your fellow citizen and we will all be better off. An emotionally driven response would be to harbor such animosity towards this group that this becomes an animating factor for an entire political party, driving its voters to the polls.

Do you seriously want to debate which side is more emotionally driven? What is the Republican Party platform again?

Why are you gae?

Released my findings. Thoughts?

Tempted to post the pm and risk getting mod killed

My assessment is that the two sides think completely differently, left wingers being more practical and logical, right wingers being more emotionally driven.

This does mean that we have to take chance this DP on someone, however. That is where my research on Lunatic's past games comes into play.

Also, General Miley didn't register as a Chinese agent. Neither did Swalwell.

They should all get the Flynn treatment when 2022 flips red.

Nah town might still figure it out. I have faith in the impossible.

This is the first I am hearing you are gay. 

I can see you doing all of this, even if you're going to WIFOM on each point.

Whether or not you'd be willing to bus at that particular point is impossible for me to know, but if your general response is that this doesn't fit your meta, I'll buy it. Doesn't mean I'm writing you off.

I just straight up don't agree that effectively forcing a NL by redirecting me onto a townie and then having scum refuse to vote for one of their own is the best choice for scum to have made.

You can push me on that all you want, but I see value in the strat that scum went with. You can claim all you want that this wouldn't have come up as an option if you were scum, but many of us are straight up disregarding the Cop result and you yourself said that we should be doing that at this stage regardless. Not saying this was the best choice scum could have made, but I'm not putting it past you or anyone else to have made it. I'm also not convinced that the Cop result wasn't monkeyed with in some way, so the argument that you wouldn't leave a Cop to investigate doesn't work for me in general.

In general, you keep talking about what the optimal strategy for you would have been, and I'm telling you now, that shit isn't convincing me. Whoever is scum, they're not playing optimally. That doesn't mean that you're not scum. I can't and shouldn't assume that, if you were scum, you will always behave in the most optimal way.

Beyond that, you keep saying that you, personally, would never do something as scum. Even if I bought that, there is a scum team here and whoever is on that scum team is going to occasionally come to different decisions. I don't buy the argument that I should solely focus on what you, personally, are likely to do as scum in order to determine whether scum, as a whole would have done this with you on the team. Suffice it to say, I wouldn't be surprised if you were on the scum team and pushed back against the decision to redirect my Magistrate, though I'm also not convinced that you don't have a different role that took the decision away from you. The Trancer role will automatically redirect any visits that would go to you to a different target of your choice. The Deflector takes all actions that would target one player and directs them to another. You could be a Nexus, automatically redirecting anything that targets you to another player. I'm not arguing that any of these are inherently more likely, though I'll point out that any of them would explain why you personally wouldn't have taken this specific action and yet you could still be scum.

"It is objectively true that Supa had zero interactions with Supa if you reread the DPs" ...huh? Did you mean with Sui?

I'm not arguing that Supa isn't sloppy. I'm arguing that you're asking me to buy that he's being far more sloppy in this particular DP than makes sense to me. You're asking me to view what he did here as scummy, but despite his errors in the past, I've never seen him do anything like this as scum. If you have examples, I'd consider them.

For now, because we have the time to do this, I'll unvote. Pie's asking me to look at this holistically, so I'll go back and analyze things in more detail. It's either Pie or it's Supa, it can't be both. Pie has a point when it comes to behavioral reads on Supa and his interactions with Sui, though I don't buy the OMGUS as a problem (like I said, at this point, one of the two of you is scum). I don't buy that his sloppiness points to him being scum, but that may be because the examples of previous sloppiness are too dissimilar.

Trump is guilty of the felonious crime of of literally being Hitler. There, saved this thread from getting thousands of pages long full of bullshit.

Alright, long post to get my reads and reasoning out there since I might have limited time over the next several hours. I've had some time to read through all this and I'm really starting to think that our scum team is GP, Pie and Sui.

Sui's obvious, so I won't spend time on him.

Pie is a tough call because, at this point, we're clearly between him and Supa. I don't read anything into Pie's being defensive since he kinda has to be at this point, regardless of whether he's scum or town. That being said, all of the things he's saying about how his behavior doesn't fit what he'd do if given the opportunity just isn't convincing to me. 

He says he tends to play conservatively, and to some degree that's true, though even nixing bussing as a regular strategy for him (and as something he'd hesitate to do), I know he's ready and willing to do it. It's strange because he simultaneously says that he's a conservative player, but that if he was bussing, he would have bussed hard. Those two statements don't jive for me. 

He says quite a bit about how he's got the game solved numerically to the point that he wouldn't have redirected my Magistrate to a fellow scum if he was scum, but I'm not so sure. Getting a NL on this NP wouldn't end the game (hence his argument about lynching Mikal, if he actually is the Hunter, also wouldn't end the game - we could stand to lose two town so long as one scum goes with them, just as we could stand to lose one town during the NP with a NL) and would give town some POE in the process.

Not saying that it wouldn't help scum as well, but Pie acts as though it's obvious that the choice for scum would have been to redirect my Magistrate to another town member.

I don't see it that way, and the additional benefit of sowing confusion in town by forcing them to analyze other members beyond the obvious scum has its own benefits. So, no Pie, I'm not implying that you didn't see a numerical benefit if you were scum. I'm saying that you would have seen a different benefit to this course of action, one that wasn't necessarily outweighed by the numerical one.

Beyond all that, I'd say that Pie is doing a lot of WIFOM analysis, as Supa already mentioned. Why would I have done this instead of this as scum? Wouldn't this have been the better choice? He decries what he sees as WIFOM analysis from me and then responds in kind.

And it doesn't really work for me because what he's asking me to do is to look at his behavior, see that he didn't take the most opportune route if he was scum, and finger Supa instead. The trouble with that is that I think Supa took an even less opportune route.

I've already explained that, so I won't revisit it here. I don't care that Supa came up Inno, that's not factoring into my decision at all, but I don't understand how the CC and rapid reneg makes sense from Supa's perspective if he's scum, especially since, as Pie points out, both came "after Computer had already said he visited Supa."

I still haven't gotten a reason why Supa would take this specific set of actions, but if this is him as scum, this is incredibly sloppy.

Pie, you can't ask me to simultaneously view a non-optimal choice you potentially made as obvious reason not to suspect you, and then look at this and see it as obvious scum play. Maybe Supa is just playing this sloppily, but at least for the moment, I buy that less than I buy you having made the decisions required to get to this point as scum.

Really, the only thing that's making me solidly question Supa is that he's putting his behavior down to Luna being late in sending him a PM to tell him he was visited by Computer. It's possible, but it's entirely unverifiable and outright frustrating if true.

I haven't lied about any mechanic. I'm telling you that basing your scum read on a MafiaUniverse role description when that doesn't mean shit in a Lunatic game is stupid. Stop basing your reads on this and think about the bigger picture

Then you proceed to have no counters to any of the arguments I made and then said "my behavior is scummy." In what way has my behavior been scummy. Your only reason then is to talk about the Luna situation, but then again, you are being a class a dumbass

What would be the reasoning behind CC'ing a visit from an un CC'd cop. As scum, why would I risk doing that, especially if I got an innocent on me? What would honestly be the point. He got an innocent. If I was scum I wouldn't have said shit about the innocent if I didn't get a PM. I'd just let it go by without a thought because it gives me town merit. The fact I called it out should make me more town, but logic seems to not even exist in your brain besides "WIFOM"

You say, my behavior is scummy and why I'm defensive, look at the game

4v3v1 OR 5v2v1

Town loses if mislynch if you are suggesting the front is what the distribution is overall

I want you to ask why I am a better lynch target than WF

Also link me to your claim

You asked for my opinion. Why the hell did you tag me if you didn't want my input?

No, I wouldn't I would go with what they tell me to and act better. Not what you're doing

I don't know... you're being very defensive so far.

If you were town, you would feel free to reveal what we want.

I'm sticking with my vote on you unless something new comes up. 

Your pouring more shit out of your mouth than the Green Bay Packers put on the football field

If Sui is so obviously scum, why aren’t you voting for him, oh wait, because you are his buddy

8 people

Assume it’s 5v2v1 (likely setup)

You need mislynch here because a 4v2v1 is easier to win versus a 5v1v1

You are so confident Sui is scum then why aren’t you on him and instead of doing this bullshit you are doing now and avoiding him. You state constant lies about my interaction when I said what I said about him DP1, applies true to this scenario 

Second, your WIFOM example is heinous because you are doing the same thing? Supa could’ve lawyered himself for investigation? Wonder who did that

WIFOM is your only counter to very logical analysis. You do not behavior, sight, or overall analysis and just breeze through. I’m praying you are scum because if you are town, you are a lost cause

If you are so confident in Sui, vote Sui as your top candidate and not sugar coat it by voting WF

So what did I lie about???

Pie is now making up shit to look better

Pie is scum

I want a full claim from Pie. He’s either throwing this game or he’s scum

He hasn’t listened to any logic and reasoning and stands behind an off brand source that Lunatic may or may not use

He has ignored countless examples of such things and has pushed heavily for lynches on Earth and Max.

He then counters what he says and says, I was the hammer in those games when he explicitly told me to hammer

Now he’s on Mhar for defending what I said. Seems like desperation

You are genuinely throwing this game if you are town and are living up to your hard headed ways. You are being dismissive and dismissing the points of people

1. Why, if scum, would I claim a scum role

2. Why would I lie about not getting an action and then claiming I did

Notice Badger and I are not on that list. tsk tsk... scum surely is though. In the most unlikely of comebacks If town can get 4 votes on one of those ill hammer.

scums winning?

Still looking to verify that. As for the recent interaction between Supa and ComputerNerd, I do think Sui is smart enough to script it, but only for Supa. You can't have ComputerNerd fake cop AND a fake CC/withdraw whatever from Supa.

But Supa did mention a mistake from Lunatic and I have seen Lunatic make one mistake modding already, so I still think the interaction could be real as well, unless mafia thought to fake a mod mistake too. Which is also possible, since a mistake on a vote count is easier to make than a mistake on a PM. 

If Lunatic did make a PM mistake, I want to say I am not trying to flame Lunatic here; if anything I'm grateful he put on this game. I've made worse modding mistakes, that's for sure.

My question is, if it's Sui and Supa, who is third? I don't think Whiteflame, but that leaves you and Mikal on the table to be the third. I would go for Mikal in this case, but I would lynch Supa first.

Still most scenarios in my head lead to you or Mikal, in which I pretty much always pick you.  

So I am changing my ideal lynch to you or Supa. Lynching Supa is a good way to test you, but we're in MYLO. We can't lynch someone just to test something anymore. We have to hit scum.

Lunatic did say he threw this game together, so why not mix up an old game?

ohhh true. But that would require mafia to know he was targeting Supa.

Plus I now believe Supa is town based on his interaction with ComputerNerd (to be confirmed for me if I do find examples of Lunatic role switching in his games), so while I think godfather is possible, it isn't Supa's role.

Lawyer COULD belong to a teammate of Supa's if he was mafia, but there is a problem with this as well. The most prominent lawyer character has already been revealed to be Airmax, and Airmax/Helen was a babysitter.

Not convinced that you would have run things that way, given the circumstances, though everything I have to say on that is WIFOM, so I'll abstain. I do think that your doing it was calculated, so yes, I feel that that falls in line with what I know of your scum play.

Frankly, I can't make sense of how this would work. Supa had an opportunity to push hard on ComputerNerd and refused to take it. No, actually, it's stranger than that: he did push on ComputerNerd with the CC, and then renegged on it. So what would have had to happen, if there was a redirect, is that Supa either redirected him or gave someone on his team the go-ahead to redirect, then responded to ComputerNerd's claim that he was copped by flatly denying it, and then changed his tune shortly thereafter. The only sense I can make of that is that he forgot about the redirect, believed that he'd been copped guilty (despite ComputerNerd saying he was innocent), denied the copping ever happened to escape it, and then realized his mistake and made an about-face. I'm not saying that that's impossible, but that involves a lot more effort and lapses on his part than make sense to me.

...I don't understand this response. We all knew that Sui was guilty after last DP. Redirecting me was smart: it prevented an easy lynch on the most scumread person in the game, forcing town to make tough decisions among the remainder of the players.

That's not a brain dead response - it makes a lot more sense than redirecting me to a known townie just to reduce the number of votes we have by one, since that would leave the number of votes we'd need to lynch at the same number and still require all of town and the claimed TP to agree.

As for directing it back to me, I know that's not possible because my PM says that I can't self-target, though again, I don't really know why that would be a better move. Maybe you'd disagree that it makes sense, but I see perfect sense in it, and I'll say that that's true regardless of who else is scum.

A redirect here has all of the benefits of the confusion it has caused so far, along with protecting a valuable mafia power role. It's obvious scum would want to protect their power roles, but the confusion is something I recall you said yourself mafia wants in Post #151.

I must have missed where you posted this. What is the lawyer angle?

Yeah but that confusion could lead to town going for some reversal anti-meta whatever play and lynching Supa. He'd be stupid to try it.

I've seen Pie hard bus his partners early in the DP before, and this wasn't really early at all. It reads to me of him waiting until he felt there was little other choice.

Note that he said this before Supa CC'd ComputerNerd. The only other potentially viable option would've been for him to push a lynch on Supa, which probably would have made more sense for him at that moment, but given that Supa would confirm ComputerNerd's visit, I could see why he might have been hesitant to push that lynch.

There's clearly some WIFOM analysis in here, but I could certainly see scenarios where Pie and Mikal could be scum partners. I don't think that the reality that Pie would be bussing him pretty hard at this stage does a lot to reduce the plausibility of it.

Supa has no reason to lie. If he were scum he could CC this and some heightened suspicion on ComputerNerd could result in him pushing ComputerNerd to get the game ending mislynch but he WITHDREW HIS CC.

And if Supa is telling the truth here, I conclude he is most likely telling the truth about being Gramps and Supa is very likely town based on behavior along with this new information.

And ComputerNerd would be telling the truth too since he would have a motive to say Supa is guilty. And I don’t see them being in a scum team together either; Supa CC’d ComputerNerd and he would have no reason to bus his teammate if he were mafia unless he intended to pull it back and fake a mistake from Lunatic, but I don’t think that’s the case.

Yes, though I have reservations about it since, if he is town, it would cost us a town member during the DP and one during the NP, putting us at 2-2-1 instead of 3-2-1. Since he's on my list of potential scum, though... yes, I'd consider lynching Mikal.

Still, Supa’s behavior in this situation makes me think he is there is merit to Lunatic giving him a town aligned mafia role, and Supa did just give examples of Lunatic flipping roles’ alignments around in previous games.

So I'm refocusing. We have three scum left in the pool, and my POE places Mharman, Pie, Mikal and Sui in there. Sui's clearly scum. I think Pie is the most likely out of the remainder. Mikal's next. So, at least until I'm given good reason to think otherwise,

I keep telling you this and you still refuse to listen. Lunatic is well known for making town roles scum and scum roles town. This logic you bring up is so bad