ILikePie5

Either you or drafter but drafter more since you claimed

Alright, so now we're back to assuming the motivations. Let's do that. 

If he's town and he redirected, then he was suspicious of Pie and sought to redirect him. In terms of targets, he probably had no clue whether anyone else was town or mafia. His choices were: 

1) to blindly select someone from the rest of the group, hope they were mafia, and target to them, or

2) to pick the known Hated townie, who was unlikely to be of much use the rest of the game and may become a policy elimination later

If he's mafia, then he believed that Pie was town, redirected him to Croc (the known townie) with the aim of showing up innocent. That's possible, and if that happened then clearly the fact that the redirect was reported to Pie gave away the game. 

Fine. Both seem like plausible options to me. Why are you putting more stake in the latter? Honestly, if this was anyone else, I would probably on the same page as you, but given that this is WP, I don't see much reason to buy the latter framing over the former. The only way I buy that is if he both has a scum partner who both told him to do this and told him to reveal that he was the one doing the redirecting. The former move makes sense to me, but the latter doesn't.

I understand that Croc wasn't the best redirect target, but that's true whether he's a townie or mafia. Frankly, I buy that it at least makes more sense for it to be a townie move coming from WP. The reasoning isn't great, but if a scum partner was giving him directions, I honestly can't fathom why he'd choose to redirect to Croc instead of hitting a possible power role. Eliminating the Hated townie doesn't really accomplish much for them. Sure, there's some risk involved, but that still seems like the obviously better move, especially when there were so many of us talking about lynching Croc early.

no, i selected pie because he was against speed but i didn't think he'd try to kill speed because there were still a lot of people against and for speed making him still suspicious and not a good nk option.

ya but it's an anti-town role so since i thought you were scum i redirected your kill onto the most anti-town person in my opinion. i thought he was heavily lean town but the fact that he's an anti town role makes it so that i'd pick him to redirect to rather than any of you.

I'm saying that that behavior doesn't come solely from misreads. WP doesn't play this game in a way that most of us would. I'm not saying that's a free ticket for him to behave however he wants, though I haven't seen any solid discrepancies in his behavior that separate him from previous games where he was town. It's an odd role, he used it in an odd way, and surprisingly got what he wanted. I don't see how this is obvious scum play, and if he had a scum partner who was trying to guide him, I don't see why they'd push him to do this. 

"ok, i see but i don't think dp1 lynching a very heavily lean town person is a very good idea."

He thought I was heavily lean town, and he never gave his read on you so you have no basis to assume that he didn't scumread you

Dude, last game, he targeted the BP as the Doc. He may not be a noob, but he doesn't play this game the same way you or I would.

You were literally the only one on me for that reason

You say that assuming WP plays logically, and no offense to him but we both know he doesn't

As for the flip flop, again, this is WP we're talking about. For lots of other players, that would be sus. For him, not so much.

I'm having trouble with this. So, you're saying that WP chose Croc as his target solely because his actions in targeting Croc wouldn't be watched... and then told everyone about it now? Or are you saying that someone else did it and WP is covering for them? If that's the case, do you think it's Speed?

If it's Water we're talking about, then it makes nothing but sense. There was repeated talk in the last DP, some of it by him, about how we should just get rid of Croc early. I don't see how that's sus at all when he blatantly said it in DP1.

Not when it puts him at risk of being lynched

That's begging the question, it assumes he's scum

And? That doesn't mean he can't redirect someone

I have a strong hunch.

Not sure why you believe the role itself is scummy, but the fact that he chose you as his target and you basically verified that action doesn't exactly scream "scum" to me. In general, it doesn't make sense that he'd claim to have taken this action at all if he was scum, especially if the role has a scummy connotation. Also, if he was scum, why would he redirect to Croc, the claimed Hated? 

Nope, whiteflame knows and that's enough

I think your analysis on WP doesn't make any sense. And you're probably right about Draft, but I'd sooner lynch him than lynch WP, who is also one of my stronger town reads.

So I as scum would forget to tell Water to not reveal that he's the redirector? What?

Besides that fact, again your argument assumes that Water is scum because he didn't waive. But he isn't familiar with the role so of course he didn't waive

Is he? He didn't in his last game

That's a secret

I disagree, but I've already stated my position on the matter. I am familiar with every anime that has been mentioned so far. Love to get roles, but people have been disinclined so far. 

I know That1's role, so I'm fine with drafter

VTL Drafter

Absolutely not, WP is the towniest here. Your whole argument assumes WP knows how to play the role but clearly he doesn't

Supa told you that you got redirected?

it wasn't a bus driver it was a redirect by me and as to why i redirected dp 1 it's because i found you suspicious as hell for being on speed the whole time dp 1.

Two, ALL redirects are reported. So it does not matter what the roles say elsewhere - in this game, the mod will tell you if your action was redirected and to whom.

it wasn't a bus driver it was a redirect by me and as to why i redirected dp 1 it's because i found you suspicious as hell for being on speed the whole time dp 1.

btw the format it worked with the redirect was that i just redirected any action taken by you onto croc.

A few reasons...

1. Even you admit your role justification is shit. Honestly, it lines up better with third party than vig.
   

1. Victims of redirect do not usually get told outright. Similarly, nothing about that bus driver description implies they would be given a redirect notification... Just imagine if a cop investigated you, and were told: 'Not guilty, but your investigation was redirected.' I would even dare to say, telling everyone any time it happens, would defeat much of the purpose of that role.
   

1. With multiple NKs last night (three unless I'm mistaken?), you insist "it had to be Croc and Speed." Which to me reads like a rehearsed story you decided upon. Further, if it had to be a "bus driver" but your PM said "redirected" why would you assume a bus driver specifically?
   

I seriously sus Pie right now.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Redirector

OMGUSing is voting/sussing someone because they voted/sussed you, with no other logic behind it. So you're telling me that you being mafia with an extra killing role isn't an actual possibility? And that I somehow magically voted or sussed you?

Nice incorrect use of OMGUS

Also you could just be mafia with an extra killing role

If it is a mafia redirector, I'm not incriminated

Not really convinced it's the Bus Driver, either, but it's one possible route. It's more disprovable than others, though, so I can understand your incredulity.

Why would you get a notification that you were redirected if it was a bus driver? The bus driver isn't targeting you, they would've targeted me and Croc, so therefore it makes no sense for you to get a notification

I said that under the assumption that this is a redirector, not a bus driver. All of this assumes it's a bus driver, which I am very confident is wrong

Anything we should know? It sounds like you tried to kill Speed, but anything else?

1x vig I assume?

There are easy ways to solve the bus driver argument. Firstly, allow me to remind everyone that if this is proven to be a redirector, and not a bus driver, then I am not incriminated because there is no way for a redirector to have known who Pie's original target was.

If anyone else targeted Croc or me and wasn't given a redirected notification, then it's impossible for it to be a bus driver.

Also, why would I bus drive with Croc as scum? That risks bringing any possible actions originally on him onto me, which only hurts me. The arg that I used a bus driver on myself therefore assumes that I knew I would be vig'd, but how would I know that as scum?

Plus even if I somehow did know I would be vig'd, why would I redirect that onto Croc knowing he would be an eventual mislynch? It makes no sense

Are you any certain flavor of vig?

From what I'm reading, it's possible that it's a Bus Driver. They'd select 2 players (Speedrace and Croc/Lunatic) and anything targeted at the first player (in this case, Speedrace) would be shifted to the second target (in this case, Croc or Lunatic). Not the only possibility, but it's on the list.

No it's not lol