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@Lunatic
Vote CountWylted- 1/6- iLikePie5iLikePie5- 1/6- Wylted
Can you double check this and confirm? I thought some people were on JoeBob
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@Earth
@Barney
@Savant
@Casey_Risk
Pressure Earth please
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@Mharman
@AustinL0926
@JoeBob
@Owen_T
@Cerulean
Let’s pressure Wylted for a full claim. His character is very odd, and he sucks at fake claiming as scum.
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@Owen_T
WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE COLOR?
Is there a reason you are avoiding my question?
A) Why does it matter?
B) I was responding to posts.
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@Barney
Vito, from the book or the movies? And did you preference for the title Don, or was that fed back by the host?
Lean town on Barney for this
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@Cerulean
That's a bit audacious, considering that's quite literally a Mafia Don.My initial reaction would be to give you a townread for giving that up with no pressure, since it "looks" so bad, but I'm wary of a "refuge in audacity" bluff. You, or someone else, can correct me if this is wrong, but from the few posts I've seen from you so far, you strike me as someone who might try to pull that sort of strategy off.
It’s null coming from him.
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@WyIted
The fact pie has not tried to get me to full claim right off the bat, is sus.my vote stays
Well after reading everything, I actually do want your claim. Billy Mitchell is random af
VTL Wylted for full claim
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@WyIted
Fine. I am billy mitchell. And yes his initials are USA Google it
Okay back to null. Why did you choose Billy Mitchell as your character?
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@AustinL0926
Since it's a slow news day, I'll claim my character to invite some discussion: Don Corleone.
Hmm, interesting.
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Casey - Fiction
Cerulean - Fiction, Male
JoeBob - Fiction
Pie - Fiction, Male, Movie, 2009
Wylted - Real, Male, Birth, 1965 - Billy Mitchell
Owen - Real, Male, Birth, 1926
Austin - Fiction, Male, Book/Movie, 1972 - Don Corleone
Mharman - Real
Barney
Earth
Savant
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@Cerulean
I am mildly curious about the general alignment layout of this game (ie 9 Town 2 Mafia, 8 Town 3 Mafia, 8 Town 2 Mafia 1 3p/Neutral, etc.), although there's not much we can do beyond speculating about it at this point.What's the general feel for 3rd Party/Neutral/Independent/Unaligned/Any other name for non-Town and non-Mafia roles on this forum? Should we expect one to exist here?
I think 9-2 and 8-3 are town sides and scumsided respectively. Luna likes putting TPs, and usually they have their own objective, which after achieved, they can usually joint win with either faction. If I were a betting man, I’d bet that a TP exists in this game.
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@Owen_T
Is there actually any way we can effectively scum hunt on the first DP. Last time the only reason there was really any action was because of Austin.
Ask people questions
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Casey - Fiction
Cerulean - Fiction, Male
JoeBob - Fiction
Pie - Fiction, Male, Movie, 2009
Wylted - Real, Male, Birth, 1965 - Billy Mitchell
Owen - Real, Male
Austin - Fiction, Male, Book/Movie, 1972 - Don Corleone
Mharman - Real
Barney
Earth
Savant
This is what I compiled so far
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Casey - Fiction
Cerulean - Fiction
JoeBob - Fiction
Pie - Fiction
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@Cerulean
I might as well ask in return- how do games here typically go? Should I expect an intense, fast-paced end of day? An eventual settling on a single massive vote wagon? Heavily mech-focused gameplay?
Day Phases are generally slow until time pressure catches up. Usually when I’m playing, I generate activity. We try to build consensus and convince each other. If you find something odd, you pursue it and try to convince others. I usually rely on play styles from people, cause sometimes people do things that are inherent to them as town or scum. We also try to discuss game balance usually. Lunatic is one of the oldest players and game designers on this site. Feel free to check the archive to see games he’s designed.
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@Casey_Risk
In UPick Mafia, we started by having everyone reveal their chosen characters. Should we do the same here?
I think this should be fine. Something like month + year the character came into existence + where it’s from (ie book, movie, game, play, etc). Still keeps the range open, but heavily restricts it as well.
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@WyIted
Pie is obviously going to pick Matthew crooks and lunatic thinks crooks is a hero which places pie directly in the scum poolVTL pie
Alright you’re town
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@Lunatic
Earth, Barney, WF make 11
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@Mharman
Yeah I’m not about to go for any policy lynches on millersMaybe that’s why Austin tried that gambit
My stance is that it’s a good default lynch. We spend the DPs scum hunting, and if we don’t find anything, we lynch the miller. It helps with the last minute lynches. If Austin had claimed Miller, Owen would still be alive and confirmed DP4
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Ya the Austin miller claim was just an unnecessary distraction
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He’s not going to resign. He’s running as an Indy for Senate from New Jersey. Hopefully he plays spoiler
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@Earth
@Lunatic
@whiteflame
@AustinL0926
@WyIted
Alright, read the above 3 parts if you don’t want to click on the link
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PART 3/3
11. Savant/Mharman RVS voted each other. Savant goes ballistic over votes on him (you've seen it before), and he also RVS voted me when we were scum together.
I voted Savant because last game, someone mentioned a meme where he dies first every DP1. It was purely a joke. And how is Savant returning the joke “going ballistic over an RVS”?
12. Despite allegedly "sussing" Savant, Mharman did NOTHING to push Savant D1.
Here I voted Savant and pushed for his lynch: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/11342/posts/458723
Here’s where I hard scumread Savant and only decided to vote Austin because others in town were thinking Savant was town, and Austin was a good compromise: https://www.debateart.com/members/Mharman/forum-posts?page=3
Final reads before a hammer (SIDE NOTE: There’s a reason why I wanted to get those out before someone hammered…it’s almos like, hear me out, I was thinking I’d be killed in the night): https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/11342/posts/458871
Literally the hardest push I could’ve possibly made: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/11342-ace-attorney-mafia-dp1?page=29&post_number=861
13. Savant's progression is implausible. He said I was a townread, then voted me based on alleged mechanical reasons that make no sense.
Reads can change. This is irrelevant.
15. Also Savant demonstrated either a bad-faith push or a failure of basic probability when he said the chances I choose three town aligned players d1 is less than 50% (which has nothing to do with the chance of my alignment)
Fair point, but now that we’re discussing the likelihood of your role, I don’t care about Savant misreading probability. Also if Savant were scum, I guarantee he’d double check his probability claims before posting.
16. Savant and Mharman have zero genuine interactions. Read the day.
This is entirely subjective. Everything I said was a reaction to Savant being confirmed, as I saw it.
Also, if we're talking character analysis here, Maya/Mia/Pearl are all Fey members and I fail to see a themesplit that would only include Maya but not the others.
So my speculation based on evidence is irrational, yet yours based on absolutely nothing is valid? Lol. Why does Austin need to make so many reaches to defend himself?
Lol at Mharman's mental gymnastics. Apparently I decided to immediately fakeclaim Dreamer, draw attention to myself D1, resolve several slots as town, retract to avoid a mislynch even though I easily could have chained two if I was scum, then fake having no results N1 even though I was widely townread and could easily have gotten another mislynch off fake results, all as part of an scum gambit to... put myself in POE and locktown several players.
“I’m the deuteraonist! No way I could be scum!”
“I’m Maya Fey in a game with others Feys! No way it’s me!”
“I ‘cleared slots’ and generated activity! No way I faked anything!”
LOL. First of all, when you made your “gambit” as obvious as it was, you undermined it. You cleared nothing; it took the outing of last night’s results to actually clear Savant. For Wylted, it took his confusion, which didn’t take any effor from you and wasn’t related to your dreamer claim. For Lunatic, he claimed after town mass pushed. I don’t think putting someone in the POE hoping town would mass push for their claim is in the mind of a townie pulling this crap. Even then, Lunatic wasn’t confirmed and could’ve been scumread later today if I didn’t confirm him.
Furthermore, you breaded, and then claimed it was a gambit AFTER town started to wonder it you were gambiting, and all three people in your pool had people thinking they were town. If some of those people were scummread and your “gambit” wasn’t sussed out, you EASILY could have gotten a few mislynches off it, instead of falling back on the whole “it’s a gambit” thing that town convinced itself of.
Also, you said you wanted to disrupt scum by forcing resources out of them… what would look more townie then not having any because you’re plan somehow miraculously worked to perfection?
And let’s talk mental gymnastics:
-Being one of three investigative roles is fine, but being the only protective role is somehow a fake claim, because I made the same appeal to it that a DIFFERENT PERSON, playing in a DIFFERENT GAME, under DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES did the same thing.
-Somehow, the long, detailed post of a thought process that matches perfectly with everything I said and did the last two phases is a retroactive justification, but a way-too-obvious “gambit” that the rest of town gave you an easy out on, isn’t, because “muh generated activity.”
-Somehow, Savant and I are scum and faking a redirector, while Earth isn’t lying about the role that counters a redirector.
Mharman's actions are dripping with scum agenda. I've been hard townsiding all game. Lynch that scumbag.
Very impatient of you, after I said I was willing to wait on you earlier, and after you said quicklynching you was scummy.
Looks like you were fearing this rebuttal that I promised.
“Two-six, we don't at n****s, we get at n****s
Shoot a n**** lights out, yeah, my dogs stat fillers
Stat stuffers, triple-double, get your ass black duffled
Body bag, body bag, body bag”
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PART 2/3:
6. Mharman's claim of Doc is the exact same that Savant did in Mahabharata. Notice how he's pushing the exact "I'm un-CC'd so I HAVE to be town" angle.
There’s two big differences between that situation and this one.
- Savant fakelcaimed DP1, at a time when the apportioner was unlikely to CC and reveal their own role. Here I am fullclaiming DP2, and no one has claimed any protective role at all.
- Furthermore, there was an apportioner and a gambler in that game. The only person who hasn’t fullclaimed here is Whiteflame, and he claimed to not have a protective role.
Expanding on Point #2: The fact that I am still uncontested for the only protective role in the game after…
- Joebob and Owen have fully flipped
- Austin, Lunatic, Earth, Savant, and Wylted have fullclaimed
- Whiteflame has said he doesn’t have a protective role
… should tell everyone in this game that it’s legitimate and that I should be confirmed town.
Lunatic has a pass because he’s confirmed. Where’s your confirmation, Austin?
7. A redirector makes no sense in this setup. Almost all the other roles are relatively simple or thematic, redirector is a clear outlier in terms of complexity.
8. Also makes no sense for scum to use their redirector on Savant. It makes far more sense for Savant to simply be lying.
And here’s the contradiction I mentioned earlier. It is a contradiction so bad I can only call it a scumslip.
If Austin is genuinely operating under the conclusion that Savant and I are scum, he would believe Earth, who claimed strengther. If he believes there’s a strengthener, then he has no reason to think we’re faking redirector.
Either Earth is scum and fakeclaiming, in which case he’s revealed he doesn’t believe his scum teammate’s claim… OR Earth’s claim is real and Austin forgot/ignored it because he’s so busy pushing his BS on Savant and I.
Take your pick. Either way, he’s scum. He can’t be town, otherwise he’d be scumreading Earth and Savant rn with his “fake redirector” logic.
9. Justice/Dreamer make perfect sense, it's not overpowered at all if scum has a lawyer/framer - e.g. if Justice gets "same alignment" on two players, one of whom flips town and the other is lawyered, then town is fucking screwed. I would bet 10 bucks that scum have a lawyer/framer btw.
LMAO no. Scum would still have to decide which member to lawyer. And there’s no guarantee justice would even investigate someone in the mafia.
10. Mharman had no good reason for protecting himself n1 when he was in poe, it's a retroactive justification for probably lawyering himself.
Prove it then. If you want to insinuate that it’s fake, give a reason why. Anyone reading it should no there’s no way I could fake something that detailed, that genuine.
Furthermore, my post defending myself back there shows something very townie: Human error, from the perspective of limited information, with a hint of paranoia.
- I made a mistake reading Savant’s character claim. I mistakenly felt innocent child conflicted with magistrate.
- Lunatic openly stated he regrets outting his role this DP. Something about how if he know Phoenix could possibly be doctor, he wouldn’t have outed.
- Wylted made a mistake reading his character and didn’t think there’d be one with a similar name.
- Savant outed his role not thinking about how scum could use it for counterplay. When he outed his role, Earth hadn’t claimed.
The only error I saw you make was being obvious as fuck (as Wylted put it) with your softclaim. But that’s not an error from limited information- it’s an error from impatience and overconfidence.
No dreamer, noobs aside, is making that error as town. They would be paranoid, thinking, “I’m signing my death warrant if I make my bread too obvious.”
The only reason you’d be obvious as fuck is if you wanted town to catch on as quickly as possible for town cred. Impatience and hubris is your human error, and in this case it’s not a townie error.
You got a presumably good fake claim and it got to your head. You wanted to use it as soon as possible. But as soon as you didn’t feel a lynch on any of your three accused was likely, you fell back on the “it’s a gambit” thing, since town was giving you that way out. You even prepared an escape ladder for yourself on that- by hinting at it being a gambit to others, including Lunatic. However, it was also obvious as fuck.
No one actually making that gambit is going to bread that it’s a gambit- not that obviously. They’re going to be as secretive as possible, so that they don’t undermine the usefulness of their gambit by making it too obvious. Again, this is you getting impatient for town cred.
I mean seriously, are we HONESTLY supposed to believe you started the game with dreamer and thought, “oh let me reveal that DP1… I’ll fake claim daydreamer on top of that, scanning for reactions of the people I accused, and then reveal I’m a dreamer in the night only afterward”... which somehow worked out despite you being obvious as fuck with your gambit, all because you generated activity?
- You don’t need gambits like that to generate activity. There’s ways that aren’t braindead for people with investigative roles to generate activity: Look at Lunatic last DP.
- If you can generate activity by doing that gambit as town, you can generate activity by faking it as scum.
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PART 1/3:
1. Savant and Mharman have strong partner equity. They've been voting and agreeing in unison all day phase.
Savant knows he’s town. He knows Lunatic is town because I confirmed him. He believes my doc claim because it goes well with the game. Everyone townreads Wylted.
Meanwhile, I know I’m town, Lunatic is confirmed, Savant is confirmed is my eyes because I was thinking there’d be something like a redirect (I was thinking roleblocker but redirect makes sense). Wylted is someone I heavily townread.
Given our perspectives, of course Savant and I are going to be in agreement. The implication that two townies can’t agree here is hilarious. Disc, Wylted, I were in agreement last game.
2. As scum, the status quo (i.e. the alleged POE of me/whiteflame/Earth) benefits them, which is why Savant is being uncharacteristically quiet and Mharman is doing everything he can to maintain that status quo.
How is it a status quo? Earth, Lunatic and you are all arguing against it. Whiteflame seems to disagree with my POE given that he still thinks about me. But sure, let’s assume it is for the sake of argument.
If the “status quo” is something that I think is correct, I’m not going to argue against it. I don’t know why Savant is being quiet, but I’m not convinced that it’s uncharacteristic of him.
And let’s talk about the pot calling the kettle black here. You are challenging the POE because it harms your cause. If I have a bias, you do too. At least I can recognize it. You don’t; otherwise you wouldn’t have made that argument.
And sure, if Savant is somehow scum, I’ve overlooked it because of a bias. But being a doctor, I like redirect in the game because it’s one of the many ways to break up any coordination between a doctor and investigative roles. There was also Earth’s claim. Either Earth is telling the truth, or he’s scum and strengthener is a fake claim based on inside information. Either way, there’s a good reason to believe there’s a redirect.
I don’t see a huge problem with Savant’s behavior. Earlier I felt him trying to go along with your POE on him, Lunatic, and Wylted was a case of trying to blend in… but that doesn’t mean much, given that I believed it for some time too. Looking back at DP1, a lot what he said feels like a townie trying to piece the game together.
3. Mharman's entire case is built on setup speculation. This isn't a genuine way of scumhunting, because unless there's something obviously egregious (e.g. a straight CC), it all comes down to a guess on what the mod intended.
It isn’t entirely setup spec. I’ve had an FOS on you since midway through DP1 based on your behavior. Even after switching my reads of Savant and Lunatic around, I STILL had that FOS on you. The only reason I got pushed off it and had to be reminded by Joebob’s flip was because I was VERY convinced Savant was scum by the end of DP1.
4. I don't care if I get hammered today if you get Mharman and Savant afterward. They're not accepting this, and continually trying to deflect to the alleged POE.
Pot kettle black. You’re continually trying to push back on the POE. You’re arguing as hard as I am… you care more than you think, actually. I have a good reason: If I trade myself for you today, then town is left to decide between Earth and Whiteflame. I’d rather lynch you today so we have room to lynch both Earth and Whiteflame if needed.
Also pot kettle black: You had a POE of your own, remember?
wylted/luna locktown, i like earth and whiteflame but cant lock them town, savant/mharman poe
You know what’s funny about Austin’s POE? He can lock Wylted on town based on behavior, but can’t lock Whiteflame and Earth… yet he asserts the POE is exclusively Savant and I. It’s almost as if he made the claims on Savant and I out of desperation while under heavy pressure, and now he has to stick to them.
5. Mharman's logic regarding Savant makes no sense. He says that because Savant told the truth in a setup where scum can easily fakeclaim, it makes him town. This ignores that Savant's role is confirmable, which on this site's meta gets you townread for ?? reasons.
Magistrate being kinda weak until LYLO is a good reason to out it. He also outed it before Earth claimed, meaning that he didn’t have a massive reason to think about anything like a roleblock or redirector. It’s definetely something he missed and should’ve thought about, but it’s an error I can see a townie making. Given that some people were sussing him and he believed your DP1 POE, there’s an argument that outing it DP1 made sense for the situation if he’s town, and the fact it was real decreases the likelihood of him being scum.
This is another behavior reason for me to think Savant is town now: At the start of the game, mafia had the chance to find two great fakeclaims. It’s kinda like the forbidden fruit. I don’t think they’d resist the temptation to fakeclaim in this game.
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@Mharman
Can you please post that in chucks for privacy reasons
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Turns out that appointing someone that has more power than any US Attorney or Attorney General is doesn’t make them an inferior officer.
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@Moozer325
Yeah, legally Minors shouldn't be able to get a sex changing surgery without parental permission. They can change their gender all they want, and I'm a-ok with that, but sex changing surgery is a big decision. I don't really agree with all the people who say you are homophobic just for not letting minors get gender affirming care. It's a position I don't agree with, but I understand it.
I don’t think even with parental permission it should be legal. After 18, do whatever you want.
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@WyIted
We just gotta wait for the late arriving ballots.
Yay
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@WyIted
Don’t feed the troll, not worth it. He should be banned for advocating violence on people though
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@Moozer325
VP Picks don’t move the needle that much. I like the pick, but my only worry is that Mike DeWine will now appoint 2x Primary Loser Matt Dolan to the Senate, when I want Vivek appointed
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@Moozer325
It means longer and better background checks.
Why do they need to be longer if the amount of information is finite.
But I would prefer if they were regulated more. In my world, I would have them basically illegal for citizens expect in some situations.
You don’t know what you’re talking about dude. If you walk up to a gun store right now, you cannot buy an automatic weapon.
No, there will be legal repercussions for not keeping it properly safe, and you will be legally responsible if someone in your house steals it and uses it to cause a shooting. That one is already starting to happen, which is nice.
And how are you going to prove that the person didn’t crack your safe code and steal it and kill people. You can’t legally be responsible for the actions of others. A gun is a tool. If a someone uses someone else’s car to ram 10 people and kill them, you can’t blame the original person.
Almost every other country with better regulation has lower gun violence rates, and they significantly dropped after the policies were implemented.Australia for example has a 28 day waiting period and much deeper background checks. They also have compulsory buybacks for full auto weapons, and best of all, they require you to be licensed to even carry a gun, especially concealed carry and bigger guns.From 1995 to 2006 (when these laws were put into place) the gun violence rate has dropped by 59% and suicides involving guns have dropped by 65%. Also, they have had ZERO mass shootings since. This is very significant.
Do they have 393 million guns within the nation? I don’t think so. This is called the false equivalency fallacy. You cannot compare nations that don’t have the same gun culture and pretend like it’s a great idea and will definitely work here. It’s lying trying to ban alcohol in Ireland because banning alcohol worked in a state in India.
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@Moozer325
You’re telling me that guns have saved more than 50,000 lives per year? Because if not, then it’s a problem.
They definitely have. Self-defense in most cases.
Show me these statistics.
Even Roosevelt agreed that it’s the right number.
Also, gang violence gun killings can be prevented by the measures I’m proposing.
No it can’t, because news flash: gangs obtain their guns illegally, and will continue to do so no matter how many restrictions you put. And even if they work, there are other weapons so they’ll still kill people.
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@Moozer325
More extensive background checks,
What does this mean?
restrictions on bigger and fully automatic weapons
Automatic weapons are already heavily regulated.
, and maki bug gun owners more responsible for keeping their guns locked and safe.
So now the government is gonna go door to door to check to see if you have a safe and are using it properly.
That one especially matters now because apparently the shooter stole his dad’s gun.Also more enforcement on illegal weapon dealers.
Lol
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@Moozer325
No one thinks it’s possible to get to zero gun violence. That’s plain impossible. The point is that we are trying to reach something better. I’ll sleep better at night when I know that we are at least working toward better gun violence.
Gun violence is always going to exist in a nation of 390 million guns. The only reason why you think 0.0127% is a problem is because the media fails to recount the thousands of instances where guns have saved lives.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Bullshit. We are the only advanced country with this kind of gun violence
We’re the only country with more than 390 million guns.
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@Moozer325
Listen to that. 50,000 people are killed by gun violence each year! For context, about 30,000 to 60,000 people died in the American Revolutionary War. I know the times were different, and a lot less people were alive, but that number is still way to big. This is a huge problem that we need to solve.
Bruh 💀. Like I said. Over half of the 50k are due to suicide and gang violence. You can’t seriously be arguing that 0.0127% is significant enough to repeal the Second Amendment and ban guns, especially when you haven’t even considered the benefits that they bring. You’re operating from a negative standpoint. Look at the positives too
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@Moozer325
First of all, where did you see that he stole the gun, because I haven’t seen that yet.
I saw a report somewhere.
Second of all, it’s a problem that it affects anyone really. It only affects a fraction of a percent, but when we have so many people living in America, that’s too much.
I already mentioned that it’s 50k people annually and most of that is suicide which is mental health or gang violence which is via illegal guns anyways. And you’re only looking at the negative aspects. Guns are tool that can be used for good too, like personal safety, sport, kill hogs. Protect yourself if police can’t come in time.
Some of it is unavoidable, but most of it is a problem that can be solved.
No it cannot, because illegal guns are always going to exist. It’s also noteworthy that you didn’t answer my question. What restrictions? Or are you just going to be vague like all the politicians
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@Moozer325
Of course not, that ridiculous! The restrictions will be made much stricter, and anyone who doesn’t meet those requirements will be able to keep their guns. It’s just for getting new guns.
What restrictions? The kid got his dad’s gun who purchased it legally. Why is the gun the problem when it only affects 0.0127% of the gun population.
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@Moozer325
This is what you’re taking away from the shooting? If anything, this says there should be more gun control. If we give everyone a gun, then even if you defend yourself, everyone gets hurt, or is in danger. Less guns = less shootings. The math isn’t that hard.
So you want the government to go door to door and confiscate guns from everybody when there are 393 million out there and gun deaths account for 50k deaths a year out of which a vast majority are suicides and gang related. Thats 0.0127% even taking the 50k number
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Whiteflame is probably the most active
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