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@zedvictor4
We're in a niche now,
What's so special about the one out there somewhere in the vast universe?
I ask this, as your language implies to me some 'grand higher transcendent niche?
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@sadolite
@zedvictor4
Where does this evolutionary purpose come from?
Was it placed?
Is it singular?
Or do you mean it more as long expected natural mechanisms?
Mechanisms that can accomplish this or that?
By this or that,
I mean that 'natural expected actions of X,
Can apply in various ways.
Niches in environments form, and various organisms find their place,
Remove a link and the ecosystem falls apart,
Yet there are different ecosystems, and organisms capable of filling different niches, depending on environment.
Not the direction I thought you might go,
But still interesting.
. . .
Suppose there is an island with two people and a cloning machine,
The island can support 4 people,
Why can't the island support 2 different lines of clones?
. . .
Arguably, even 'with people dying of old age,
Humans still form groups, compete, war at times.
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@zedvictor4
I agree, what one 'thinks is true, can greatly influence their person and responses.
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@Critical-Tim
What do you mean by,
"the belief that certain things have greater inherent significance"
The way I'm reading this is either as,
Some law/rule/cycle that one expects in existence,
Or some arbitrary X held in highest value to maximize/hold to.
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@Barney
@whiteflame
@oromagi
It is not my view that tagging me for a post in which he complains about and insults me, is leaving me alone.
One might argue he is not insulting me, but to my view he is,
Passive aggressive, veiled taunting, indirect insulting perhaps, but I read intention in it. (Though I 'might be mistaken, I do not think I am)
I argue I have not even 'posted in this thread,
And that post #15 be an attempt to derail the topic with an impertinent grudge.
"Creating threads to call-out specific users qualifies as targeted harassment, as does obsessive attempts to derail unrelated topics with impertinent grudges. However, criticizing statements within an ongoing discussion, is fair game."
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@sadolite
@zedvictor4
Dross?
Google says, "something regarded as worthless; rubbish."
Ah.
Take control of what?
Must they?
Why so?
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@Critical-Tim
What do you mean by divinity?
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@zedvictor4
Paradox, Contradiction, similar words.
Well, I wouldn't say your statement in #941 is a paradox or a contradiction,
Since I don't hack your computer or bribe other people you know, to learn what you say behind my back, I couldn't say.
Yours is a 'claim I suppose.
More or less true for some people,
More or less true for other people,
Some times or people, vary in how they speak to/of people.
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“You know what's wrong with scientific power?... It's a form of inherited wealth... Most kinds of power require a substantial sacrifice by whoever wants the power. There is an apprenticeship, a discipline lasting many years. Whatever kind of power you want. President of the company. Black belt in karate. Spiritual Guru. Whatever it is you seek, you have to put in the time, the practice, the effort. You must give up a lot to get it. It has to be very important to you. And once you have attained it, it is your power. It can't be given away: it resides in you. It is literally the result of your discipline. Now, what is interesting about this process is that, by the time someone has acquired the ability to his with his bare hands, he has also matured to the point where he won't use it unwisely. So that kind of power has a built-in control. The discipline of the getting the power changes you so that you won't abuse it. But scientific power is like inherited wealth: attained without discipline. You read what others have done, and you take the next step... There is no discipline... no mastery: old scientists are ignored. There is no humility before nature... A karate master does not kill people with his bare hands. He does not lose his temper and kill his wife. The person who kills is the person who has no discipline, no restraint, and who has purchased his power in the form of a Saturday night special. And that is the kind of power that science fosters, and permits.”
― Malcolm, Jurassic Park
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@IlDiavolo
True, I stated many question,
More rhetorical, than an asking for each one,
Also just my own thoughts, questions arising to myself.
. . .
I don't agree that technological objects and information necessarily means the people 'using it, are advanced.
I vaguely recall. . Ah! Jurassic Park, that was it.
“You know what's wrong with scientific power?... It's a form of inherited wealth... Most kinds of power require a substantial sacrifice by whoever wants the power. There is an apprenticeship, a discipline lasting many years. Whatever kind of power you want. President of the company. Black belt in karate. Spiritual Guru. Whatever it is you seek, you have to put in the time, the practice, the effort. You must give up a lot to get it. It has to be very important to you. And once you have attained it, it is your power. It can't be given away: it resides in you. It is literally the result of your discipline. Now, what is interesting about this process is that, by the time someone has acquired the ability to his with his bare hands, he has also matured to the point where he won't use it unwisely. So that kind of power has a built-in control. The discipline of the getting the power changes you so that you won't abuse it. But scientific power is like inherited wealth: attained without discipline. You read what others have done, and you take the next step... There is no discipline... no mastery: old scientists are ignored. There is no humility before nature... A karate master does not kill people with his bare hands. He does not lose his temper and kill his wife. The person who kills is the person who has no discipline, no restraint, and who has purchased his power in the form of a Saturday night special. And that is the kind of power that science fosters, and permits.”
― Malcolm, Jurassic Park
Take Donald Trump as an example, even with a world of experts, libraries of human knowledge gathered over millennia. . .
. . .
Certainly society 'can take measures against technological failure,
But these learning experiences can be painful and slow, 'if learned at all.
Thomas Midgley Jr.
Would be an example of vast unknowing damage,
Though we later changed course. . .
In the 'now however, I 'assume, but do not know, that there are many harmful actions humans take,
From selfish desire of short term gain, even if it harms humanity as a whole.
Hm, but am I getting off topic?
. . .
'Have we evolved in terms of morality and consciousness?
Why 'must aliens be morally superior?
And why must this mean no war?
'Many a human conqueror, had a technological edge over a people he conquered,
Had more written records, thoughts on morality.
Ah, but there I go with the questions again, not that I mean for them to be answered,
But I am doubtful of the superiority of aliens more space faring than ourselves, in regards to morality.
'Many a possibility of 'what aliens might be exists,
Many a possibility of their 'reasons.
Perhaps aliens 'did come to Earth, in the past,
But since were killed or ascended, perhaps some no interference law voted in,
Perhaps they all became absorbed by AI, and now follow some paper clip maximizing goal.
Though I assume myself aliens never visited Earth,
Speaking more 'fairly about it,
Eh, they 'could have.
. . .
Evolution 'could have some questions to it, I've not researched it in depth,
Species I 'assume are natural, seem to evolve degrees of intelligence well enough,
Elephants, chimps, dolphins,
Right set of circumstances existed, I assume,
That we rolled in the direction of our particular intelligence and consciousness, then kept on rolling.
Heh,
Though perhaps we might roll back some,
Like those cartoons of human evolution, showing some comedic form of humans devolving thanks to technology atrophying human intellect, genes, and will.
I suppose you might argue aliens introduced something 'more to humans somewhere along the line, or many species,
But the 'natural explanation, seems enough to me?
. . .
To my view
“History became legend, legend became myth, and passed out of all knowledge” - LOTR
That is explanation enough for stories that can be interpretated as aliens,
Doesn't even take that long sometimes.
. . .
Though of course, fantastic events 'could happen, and be recorded. . .
. . .
Stubbornness,
Well, I don't think I've heard evidence that convinces me of alien visitation,
So I do not believe.
Though, , ,
It's possible I believe in this or that (What I don't know but something)
Despite a lack of evidence.
Proclivities, and natural habit,
Nature and nurture.
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I recall a cartoon I read once,
Had a presidential candidate meeting people of various walks of life,
For each one, he would change his clothing and the appearance of his office,
To seem like one of them.
I also recall a saying,
That familiarity breeds contempt,
Some people will not 'appreciate a down to earth, equal attempt from their rulers,
Seeing them as poor, not great or powerful, thinking less of them.
And yet,
Paradox,
Where others in seeing rulers of fine clothing, pomp and parade,
Are enraged by the difference of quality of life.
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@IlDiavolo
What do you mean by Us?
What do you mean by evolved?
Has humanity 'itself changed, or has it's material possessions around it changed?
Is technology and morality a path 'towards something?
If I do not know how to start a fire manually with a couple sticks, 'am I more advanced?
What I am suggesting here is that advancement might not be a consistent line, but niches.
Is there a 'limit to what one can know?
Yes technology allows more storage in computers and such,
But a human is 'still limited in how much they can absorb/understand.
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Give an 'advanced nations a few wars,
And their morality can shift,
Many war crimes, by Axis 'and Allies in the Great Wars, I assume.
Do you argue for objective morality?
I bring up this sudden shift,
As I am not sure the connection between vastness of technological information,
Is connected with morality.
Knowledgeable people as those at Nuremberg, were capable of much morality, I assume you would not call advanced.
Yet what is advanced?
Would a so called 'evil morality, not be advanced, if it contained much logic, reasoning, writing?
More advanced than a good morality that just says this is good because I said so?
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There were people in medieval times who did not war,
And there are people in advanced times who war,
Even if percentage speaking one is larger than the other,
Is this because of the 'people's understanding/desire?
Cars, planes, trains, and bombs,
Have consolidated power spheres,
Have made Great Powers wary of fighting 'Each 'Other,
If greater protection could be devised, that mutual destruction were not a worry,
This would be a new technology, More Advanced?
And yet,
War possible again?
How war and peace mean 'advanced?
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I 'do get your common sense point though.
To make metal knife,
One usually needs fire first,
One sees a 'progression in technology often, this necessary to that.
I 'do get your common sense point though.
We view peace, no suffering as good, seems more desirable than war, suffering, (To us),
Assumption is that closer we are to what (We) desire want, more 'advanced we are towards it.
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@IlDiavolo
What does it mean to be far evolved?
Must an advanced species not have war?
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@IlDiavolo
Maybe,
When a problem is seen far ahead of time though,
Sometimes fixes are made,
Like that Year_2000_problem,
Though some argue there was little problem anyhow.
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I'm thankful to live in a place safe with a decent quality of life, though I still want for more.
I'm thankful for supportive family.
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@Barney
@whiteflame
@oromagi
After I let the user SethBrown know of DARTs rules, and how he might apply them to avoid another member spamming and derailing his thread, I said no more.
Continue to spam towards me, taunting and threatening me, in an attempt that their activities might be unopposed.
I have requested Mr.BrotherD.Thomas, to leave me be,
But instead he continues to post, spam, and insult me.
"If a member politely requests that you leave them alone, do so. Repeated failure to comply, is a clear aggravating factor regarding the content of said posts."
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I argue my letting SethBrown know of DART rules, and a method to handle trolls, qualifies as a "criticizing statement" towards Mr.BrotherD.Thomas "within an ongoing discussion."
"Creating threads to call-out specific users qualifies as targeted harassment, as does obsessive attempts to derail unrelated topics with impertinent grudges. However, criticizing statements within an ongoing discussion, is fair game."
This is unlike Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's many posts,
A recent example of such can be seen here.
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10112-the-pope-invites-a-busload-of-trans-men-to-the-vatican #6
'This is 'true "targeted harassment, as does obsessive attempts to derail unrelated topics with impertinent grudges."
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Mr.BrotherD.Thomas I 'think (But do not know)
Makes a pretense parody of Christians,
"You may not impersonate individuals, groups, or organizations in a manner that is either intended to or likely to deceive others. Parody accounts are acceptable, so long it is clear that they are parodies and do not parody other site users."
Given how many users, often new users make failed attempts to talk rationally with Mr.BrotherD.Thomas,
I argue that the parody is not clear.
Even with Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's profile,
"1. My Greyhound Bus Depot Ministry: This is where I specifically teach to the wayward 2nd class citizen women that if they listen at the onset, then I take them to my Bible bus, usually parked down by the river, for further studies and imbibing in Jesus’ favorite drink of wine, praise!
2. My Nevada State Brothel Ministry: One of my favorite Ministries, where I take a missionary position in spreading the word of Jesus to these ungodly courtesans.
3. My Nudest Camp Ministry: With the weather permitting, this is where I take a hard position for expounding upon Jesus’ true words to the exposed of His creation."
I admit I am not 'certain, since crazy and odd people exist in the world,
But to me such only adds to the argument that he is not an obvious parody.
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"Unwarranted systemic vulgarity and invectives, which may include off topic personal attacks and/or hate speech, are subject to disciplinary actions."
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas's use of Bible stupid,
I argue is more likely to be an attempt at loophole that he can insult and degrade people,
Than a statement of error in other's Biblical knowledge.
I again say that he does not seem to me a Christian,
But rather a toxic troll, who dirties the forum and drives away users,
Even if it was 19 days ago, and I only noticed it recently,
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas repeated near the 'exact same post that got him banned last time.
And in my view ought be banned again.
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas post below.
"@Best.Korea
@tigerlord
Best.Korea,
As is explicitly shown with "PaperTiger's" presence within this esteemed Religion Forum and his lacking debate skills, and within this comment section, it is him that should learn out to just "GIVE UP" with his barbaric faith of Islam, that he can no more defend than 6 month old baby can! The problem with Paper Tiger is the FACT that he doesn't have enough sense to realize in just how embarrassing he truly is by swallowing the ungodly primitive "camel-humping faith" of Islam!
Papertiger precludes that it is okay for stinky sweaty Muslim men to marry innocent young girls of 9 YEARS OLD, but fails to answer a simple question from me if he would allow a Muslim man 4-5 times his beloved daughters age to marry her, to be able to climb on top of her to SCREW HER LITTLE VAGINA IN PAIN, and her mouth and ass as well! This lack of an answer by him precludes that Paptertiger is sickened by his own faith of Islam in this respect!!!!!
Jesus and I dare Papertiger to show up again upon this Religion Forum, where we will take further needed action again upon his stinking Muslim faith, praise!"
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
I politely request that you leave me alone.
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How does stock trading work?
Where online do you do it?
Where does your money need to be, to do this?
By this I mean do you trade out of your bank account? PayPal? The Stock Trade website?
How do taxes effect stock trading?
. . .
Why aren't the laws of a country generally easy to find and understand?
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@SethBrown
If Mr.BrotherD.Thomas does not leave your thread, I encourage you to report him and his posts to one of the mods, whiteflame for example.
If Mr.BrotherD.Thomas doesn't stop spamming his trolling in your threads, he would be breaking the DART Code of Conduct.
"Spam is prohibited, and any overtly repetitive nonsensical posts are considered spam." - DART COC
"If a member politely requests that you leave them alone, do so. Repeated failure to comply, is a clear aggravating factor regarding the content of said posts.
- DART COC
"Targeted harassment of any member prohibited" - DART COC
The Moderators seem to take reports from the targets of harassment more seriously than bystander reports of harassment.
I would also like to argue that it is better for the community if individuals who break the DART Code of Conduct are held responsible,
Even if 'you have thick skin towards them,
'Not reporting certain actions by them,
Allows them to act that way towards other users.
Observe his words to swordburial17 here,
"Heads up, we're going to have a lot of fun with YOU like we did with the other disgusting camel herder Muslim tigerlord, where you will now take his place, so "chain up" because your ride in this forum is going to be real bumpy at your expense!" - BrotherD.Thomas #45 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9532-non-fallacious-defenses-of-muhammad?page=2
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@No one, as I ramble and worry I sound odd, yet I'll post anyhow.
Would you say that there are already unifying theories of everything?
I ask, as I am unsure whether such as Hegel, Nihilism, or the Tao, qualify as such.
Or even if they do, are they considered incomplete?
Though some people may argue for 'everything to be explained,
Is it not enough to explain what we 'currently know.
Wouldn't have to be those three above examples, could be as Public-Choice says (I think) within Christianity.
. . .
A theme I see in axiom viewpoints,
Is by using semantics, one is able to apply it to most everything in life,
. . . Even if one was a farmer, or a gambler, it's their depth of experience, that enables them to see patterns,
When/If they describe situations/expectations by farming/gambling analogies.
Yet these patterns are also seen by other systems,.
Though I don't take the negative view of it as Best.Korea 'seems to.
. . .
Though I suppose some viewpoints people have conflict,
Such as all people are good,
And all people are evil,
Though even then, by degrees they can both have truth, to some people.
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A sword may cut a tree to pieces,
Or a hammer smash a tree to pieces,
But that does not mean a sword and hammer are the same, even if the tree is in many pieces.
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@Math_Enthusiast
Even if everything is information, does that mean everything is the same?
Even if everything is material, does that mean everything is the same?
I'd say no myself,
The 'arrangement is different,
A hammer of styrofoam and a hammer of metal are not the same.
In my view though what is in our imaginations, 'is real,
It is real in a different sense,
A metal hammer outside our mind, and a metal hammer in our imagination, are of different amounts of material and arrangement.
Maybe it's 'possible to make more 'real objects of imagination,
But then one's imagination would have to be 'greater more complex, to give 'weight to those objects.
Human imagination, nor computers, seem capable of it to me.
. . .
I 'do think Descartes mean something different than computation,
When he stated thinking,
But I have not read him in any depth, so I am uncertain.
I 'do see many people online state AI has reached sentience,
But I do not think I use the word sentience as they do,
Sentience to my mind implies a 'person,
Not the ability to respond to stimuli,
Even a rat trap responds to stimuli, doesn't make it sentient.
Doesn't mean the rat trap is
Experiencing, 'feeling, as a human does.
@NoOneInParticular
What would qualify something as a parallel existence?
As soon as they interact, are they not no longer parallel?
Since a hammer in an imagination is effected by outside, is it really parallel?
Two bold lines, with many small lines between?
They are not 'lines then,
Two toothbrushes whose bristles are meshed, are parallel I suppose,
What qualifies something as something 'separate?
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@sui_generis
I think I'm not sure what a Theory of Everything is,
Even after reading, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything,
Basically a rule of thumb, I take it, a base axiom, general principle?
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@Double_R
"Do you believe Trump is a fascist and/or an authoritarian? Yes or No?" - Double_R
Yes and No,
If he could get away with it, yes,
But I don't think he's able to do so much as he 'might do, if he had complete power.
I view him more as a 'potential fascist/authoritarian.
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@Statichead
I'm unsure what you mean by this,
Do you mean you like individuals, but not people in general?
Good to see you again.
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How do big companies fail?
Do they continue paying owners and CEOs high wages until the end?
Varies I imagine,
Yet somehow I just can't imagine most companies cutting higher ups wages to match the workers pay.
. . .
Why 'don't tons of more communist companies exist?
They'd pay the average worker more I'd think,
Incentivizing people to stay and work well, that they 'keep such a job.
. . .
Worker Co-Ops exist, I think I've heard before.
. . .
Hm, still if higher ups not paid 'exorbitant,
Maybe leadership suffers?
People feel entitled at times in life?
So if bad leadership, bad paths charter?
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The thought crosses my mind,
That it might be kinder to kill one's enemy, than reform them.
That's my ego speaking I suppose,
Hating to see another molded, 'forced, beaten, defeated, 'changed.
Self focused, oddly allowing focus towards others.
. . .
And yet, one cannot 'avoid change,
It seems 'necessary, if one is to 'exist,
. . . Is it?
. . . Many people seem to maintain their habits like iron, despite encountering new information,
Yet are not diagnosed with any memory disease,
Being of course able to 'remember the new information,
. . . It seems off that one would 'not change, despite new experiences,
Hm, perhaps 'still changes, just their habits 'seem larger, so that is what is seen.
Hm, theoretical though,
A person incapable of 'any new memories,
If suppose even then, with enough. . . script let's say,
A person could react, as a computer program reacts, yet never gaining memory (Though yes, some computer programs gain new memory)
. . .
Alzheimer's, Dementia,
Seem a bit like being dead while alive, I've supposed before,
Though I've never 'experienced such myself, so can I say?
Been sleep deprived before,
Hm,
Be like being in one's own world,
'Never growing from external influence,
Yet if one is not allowed 'internal influence either, as things arguably can change from within,
Would such not be like being stopped in time?
Hence my earlier though,
Can one 'exist without change?
Oh perhaps a coma patient 'exists,
But they are not 'thinking,
No cogito, ergo sum.
But Alzheimer's, Dementia?
Forward then rewinding, brief moments of progress, suddenly deleted,
Hm.
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@NoOneInParticular
"C.S. Lewis, in agony following the death of his wife, wrote,
When I lay these questions before God I get no answer. But a rather special sort of ‘No answer.’ It is not the locked door. It is more like a silent, certainly not uncompassionate, gaze. As though He shook His head not in refusal but waiving the question. Like, ‘Peace, child; you don’t understand.’ … Heaven will solve our problems, but not, I think, by showing us subtle reconciliations between all our apparently contradictory notions. The notions will all be knocked from under our feet. We shall see that there never was any problem.[1]"
When I lay these questions before God I get no answer. But a rather special sort of ‘No answer.’ It is not the locked door. It is more like a silent, certainly not uncompassionate, gaze. As though He shook His head not in refusal but waiving the question. Like, ‘Peace, child; you don’t understand.’ … Heaven will solve our problems, but not, I think, by showing us subtle reconciliations between all our apparently contradictory notions. The notions will all be knocked from under our feet. We shall see that there never was any problem.[1]"
'Can we be as the Christian God, in the case this topic suggests, when not knowing 'what he is doing?
Can we be as, when we are 'not God ourselves?
Not in his position?
What do we 'see of Gods actions, then, now, future?
This is not to say people cannot follow much of the Bible, and ideals, commandments, character they see in God.
In case people might argue against following 'anything of God and Bible.
. . .
Course myself, I'm still an Atheist,
Just thinking on the logic of the topic.
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What 'was Clausewitz trying to say by,
"War is the continuation of policy with other means."?
(Below is just my 'impression, not fact of what he meant)
From what I've read and Googled,
He was saying that war needs to keep political ends in mind,
"No one starts a war--or rather, no one in his sense ought to do so--without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by the war and how he intends to conduct it."
- Clausewitz
"War is thus an act of force to compel our enemy to do our will."
- Clausewitz
Entering into war doesn't turn off politics,
More often it's politics that 'end wars,
They want to achieve some objective, that they can trade at the bargining table, to force an enemy to terms.
He also talks about destroying the enemy,
But I remember him saying in engagements,
"Engagements mean fighting. The object of fighting is the destruction or defeat of the enemy."
- Clausewitz
He talks about absolute war, but,
– However, war never achieves its absolute nature because: "war is never an isolated act;" "war does not consist of a single short blow;" and "in war the result is never final."
- Clausewitz
War often doesn't 'go that far, it's some platonic theoretical war.
Though he does use Napolean as an example of being revolutionary in how much manpower and effort he got out of France,
It was the whole nations war, not just the leader and the army, all were involved and pressing forward in a sense.
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Course on another hand,
One could argue nations around Palestine don't want to accept a ton of immigrants, out of support of Palestine as a country.
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@zedvictor4
They might not be,
I've seen a number of Reddit posts arguing that when Palestinians have come into various other states, various states of unrest have occurred near the same time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September as an example.
But I've not researched it in depth, so I'm unsure if people in that area have that perception of Palestine.
I'm also not stating that Palestinians 'are like that,
Though people in 'general, are often like that when mass displaced in poor conditions, perhaps.
. . .
Even without that though, people tend to push back, even against those similar to themselves,
When 'dissimilar though, even a 'little bit, pushback can become greater.
. . .
People are. . Concerned with their spheres of power often.
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@zedvictor4
I don't know.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Arguably there's often 'some faction in tribes, that's wanting to increase it's tribe, push out other tribes.
Sometimes 'very influential factions, regardless of if majority or minority.
Of Israel I haven't read enough to 'know how influential they have been,
They 'area one main religion/group state though, I think.
I've also become a 'lot more tribes 'ought be more xenophobic myself lately, (Still unsure on that view of mine though)
. . .
Still, 'lot of conflict since Israel's made it's comeback as self entity, (The mass migration of Jews I mean sometime after WW2, though Jews were still living in Israel before the mass migration)
Not 'just on Israel though, the many conflicts.
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I don't know much about Hamas leadership,
I've heard people say something about some of them being in Qatar, (Sorry no source, I've not researched)
But I mention because people far from fight, sometimes (Not always) have different motivations.
Self interested people often exist in organizations, because of money, power, or serving different nations, different ideals.
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Well, of 'justified,
. . . It's not the 'history of Israel that interests me, but their capability and future plans.
"No one starts a war--or rather, no one in his sense ought to do so--without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by the war and how he intends to conduct it." - https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/67848.Carl_von_Clausewitz#:~:text=No%20one%20starts%20a%20war,he%20intends%20to%20conduct%20it.
Of course Israel was attacked first,
But they still had/have options on what amount/degree they were/are going to' commit to.
Retaliation is a common concept,
Common thinking logical to hit back, show enemy they cannot attack without risk,
Though some argue Hamas 'wanted Israel to strike back, just not to this extent,
Though who 'knows the minds of Hamas leadership?
. .
But further in,
'Beyond retaliation, as Israel seems committed, what are their objectives, are they attainable?
Would other methods have achieved their objectives?
. . .
"With strong American backing, Israel has defined two clear goals: bringing home all of the hostages and destroying Hamas, the Islamic militant group that has governed Gaza since ousting the Palestinian Authority in 2007."
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-11-1-2023-blinken-netanyahu-d57766fd8e55500ff6f16b78b3560d51
What motivates objective?
My theory is,
Loyalty to tribe stolen,
Wanting to safeguard tribe not stolen, by showing what such kidnapping will result in.
One arguable reason some countries have so many kidnappings, is that in those countries, it 'works, people pay,
If people 'don't pay, don't negotiate, arguably kidnapping might drop.
I say 'might drop, as there are other reasons kidnapping can frequent occur.
What motivates objective 2?
My theory is,
Wanting to safeguard tribe not stolen, by destroying group that has continually encouraged and attacked one's tribe. That it cannot do so in the future.
How will Israel 'fulfil these objectives?
'Can they?
I'm not very familiar with this type of situation,
Would Great Britain and Ireland be an example,
Ireland seemed to manage to cut itself away,
Some differences in religion I think, terrorism.
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Arguably there are possibly other objectives/methods.
There 'are Israelis who want to drive out 'all not of their tribe, I would 'think.
Money is often involved in wars,
Some people might desire peace for all,
Such as the people massacred at the music festival.
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@zedvictor4
Hm, 'can humans be mundane though?
To 'Be,
It seems to me,
'Requires meaning.
Terry Pratchett on why Belief, Faith, and Other things science can not quanitify are important.
Not that I'm certain science 'can't quantify belief, faith, and some other things. . . Well, 'potentially,
Lot of things we don't know,
So how can we know they 'are knowable?
And I mean things we're aware of the edges, not things we havn't even heard of.
. . Hm, back on topic though,
To Be,
Well, yes rocks and animals 'exist,
But when I say To 'Be,
I'm speaking of 'people, humans, consciousness, qualia (As one person might say).
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@Truth_Over_Proof
Arguably it's 'true that American soldiers are soldier,
True that they know military information of value to America's enemies in various wars,
Acceptable then?
. . .
I 'do get (I think)
That you are arguing for exceptions.
Best.Korea's post was vague (For me)
There are often fictional movies, where the protagonists 'know, so well as we 'can know, who the villains are, what they know.
One 'can eventually come up with scenarios far off the beaten path,
Where people would often commit X action.
I'm curious though whether you are speaking of minute scenarios, or policy?
I say this due to terrorism being a worry for people in recent decades.
'Real policies and actions,
Torture 'often taken place.
. . .
Torture, though a horror,
I'd 'assume is thought of as 'less damaging, than say death,
Yet still innocents can find themselves executed,
Or guilt varying based on one's ideals.
People would be more 'free with torture,
Not so 'stringent on 'knowing the party is false, or 'knowing them to be a 'villain,
And moral goalposts, can often end up pushed, as lines are toed.
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@Truth_Over_Proof
What about innocents falsely accused?
What about the moral degradation to the torturer?
What about the emotional harm to the torturer?
What about the tortured?
What about practicality (Alternate methods)?
What about a use of torture encouraging others, even more free with who they torture, to use it?
Though one can as in your example argue specific theoretical situations can it might be considered appropriate by some.
. . .
Best.Korea just meant this as a joke post, I 'think.
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I wonder how cost effective Halloween trick or treating is, compared to people just buying their kids candy,
If one weighs the cash value of the candy, compared to the time/minimum wage it took to acquire the candy,
Probably 'not cost effective, especially given how candy will often go on sale after the holidays,
Ah, also the cost of costumes,
Course, Halloween is a whole 'experience I suppose,
And arguably might be more cost effective to make treats something one only receives during the holidays, than all the time,
Also the cost of diabetes, if one 'buys candy all the time.
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@NoOneInParticular
Is it 'more,
If one can 'reason an ought for evil,
Versus, a heartstring pulled for good, despite many a reason?
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@Reece101
I suppose I'd suggest three possible answers.
Though I've not read or thought of the Bible much.
One,
'Could argue that specific quote was speaking of 'history, rather than Paul telling people 'how to convert others.
Though I am not sure what the "demonstration of the Spirit and of power" 'was.
"1And I, when I came to you, brothers,a did not come proclaiming to you the testimonyb of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of menc but in the power of God."
I further argue One, by
"11Therefore, since we know what it means to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is clear to God, and I hope it is clear to your conscience as well. 12We are not commending ourselves to you again. Instead, we are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you can answer those who take pride in appearances rather than in the heart."
Persuading is 'still spoken of.
Two, rather than the words of men, to focus on God,
Paul speaks of Christ as a foundation,
"Christ Our Foundation
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."
Rather than his 'own words and persuasion (Of man) being the focus, it is more important that 'Gods words and truth be spoken?
He speaks 'against exalting the 'messenger, above God, I think?
"God’s Fellow Workers
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready, 3for you are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and dissension among you, are you not worldly? Are you not walking in the way of man? 4For when one of you says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?
5What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? They are servants through whom you believed, as the Lord has assigned to each his role. 6I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8He who plants and he who waters are one in purpose,a and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building."
Three
Spiritual truths,
What is meant by this?
Really I am unsure,
Is it meant as metaphysical?
Is it some 'stirring in the human condition?
Either way though, the third possibility I think of,
Is that Paul desires people's faith be of that experience, rather than reason.
. . .
Which 'can sound a bit bad,
But such a pull is human,
People can place or experience value in something, that contrary to evidence or reason,
They consider it worth the leap.
. . .
'Family, is such for myself.
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@Mharman
I'm not well read in the Bible, but as I understand it from Google,
Involves a lot of man going astray from God in their actions,
Though, really that happens frequent in the Bible I would think,
Well, more frequent in some places, I suppose.
Or significant, in different ways.
"The book of Judges was written to show the consequences of religious unfaithfulness and to point the way to a king who, if righteous, would lead the people to God. In the book of Joshua, the people of Israel seemed to want to follow the Lord and obey his commands. The book of Judges reveals, however, that the people had been rebelling even in Joshua’s time. This disobedience continued and grew more serious throughout the period of the judges. As summarized in Judges 2:16–23, time and again Israel turned its back on God and embraced the gods and ways of the Canaanites. Israel’s history unfolds in a repetitive way, with each cycle taking Israel further away from God. By the end of the book, Israel had violated its covenant with God in almost every way imaginable."
. . .
I'm not arguing myself that Jephthah 'didn't sacrifice his daughter,
Though I do think there might be fair reason that some people take the view that he did not.
"The second clue can be found in the vow Jephthah made. In Hebrew, the letter Vav is used as a conjunction joining two parts of speech. In English, we have many different words that function as conjunctions. Not so in Hebrew. The one letter Vav represents multiple different conjunctions. It can mean “and,” “together with,” “but,” “so,” “then,” and “or.” Many scholars have translated this Vav conjunction as “or.”
If that’s the case, then Jephthah’s vow says, “Whatever comes out of the doors of my house…it shall be the LORD’s, or I will offer it up as a burnt offering” (Judg. 11:31). This vow could be interpreted to mean that if the first thing to come out of the house was appropriate to offer as a burnt offering, then Jephthah would offer it as a burnt sacrifice. However, if the first thing to come out of the house wasn’t appropriate to offer as a burnt sacrifice, “it shall be the Lord’s,” meaning it would be dedicated to the Lord."
If that’s the case, then Jephthah’s vow says, “Whatever comes out of the doors of my house…it shall be the LORD’s, or I will offer it up as a burnt offering” (Judg. 11:31). This vow could be interpreted to mean that if the first thing to come out of the house was appropriate to offer as a burnt offering, then Jephthah would offer it as a burnt sacrifice. However, if the first thing to come out of the house wasn’t appropriate to offer as a burnt sacrifice, “it shall be the Lord’s,” meaning it would be dedicated to the Lord."
. . .
Certainly though,
Taking the view Jephthah 'did sacrifice his daughter, further pushes the idea of child sacrifice being common in that time and area, and 'influence on the Israelites.
A theme I remember in the Old Testament, was frequent Israel allowing itself to be influenced by other cultures and beliefs, in a way the Bible argues are negative and harmful.
A theory I like, is that Abraham and Isaac, is about making a point, that the Israelites are 'not to do such,
That the sacrifice of children is not what God wants.
Though I've heard other people make comparisons between the Binding of Isaac and Jesus.
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Sometimes I get a gnawing desire, and a fear,
A desire to turn to my faith again,
And a fear of it.
Though I'm not sure where hence comes the fear.
A fear that I might lose something important again (Faith)?
A fear that I might enter into a delusion (Faith)?
Yet which be the delusion, theism or atheism?
Of course now, I think t-
T-
The theism. . .
Yet the gnawing comes at times.
The anti-Theists, I find the 'opposite of persuasive,
Rather they give me mind towards what in the Bible I esteem.
. . .
I'm more fond of better to not have loved and lost,
Than to have loved and lost.
Still, I'm unsure of 'what the fear is.
. . .
Ah, I remember now,
Even when I believed, I did not view myself as one who lived as a Christian,
Despite hopes, feelings, and regrets.
No,
Still, . . And 'Yet that gnawing!
Gnaws still more fierce, demanding towards actually 'living as a Christian,
But that fear and self interest, another gnawing.
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"One opinion among commentators is that after she mourned for her virginity in light of the Biblical commandment to "be fruitful and multiply", which she would now no longer be able to fulfill, Jephthah killed his daughter in an act of human sacrifice.[1] There is an opposing opinion that Jephthah's daughter was "offered to the Lord" in the same way Samuel was offered after birth, and spent the rest of her life in seclusion. This is based on considerations such as weeping for her virginity would make no sense if she were about to die. Commentators holding this view include David Kimhi,[2] Keil and Delitzsch,[3] James B. Jordan,[4] and the Jehovah's Witnesses.[5]"
There's also a 'lot of other arguments, but I don't feel like typing out all my thoughts and sources I read recently.
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@ponikshiy
Oh I don't 'mean to be dismissive, not my intention at all.
But I 'do think it is fair to argue against too strong a negative view taken against Islam and the Quran,
Not that you have or have not done so.
I'd argue though, that Mein Kampf is a more 'recent document than the Quran,
And Hitler a more recent person,
It's a sight closer to the eye, easier to make out details of historical truths of actions.
. . .
Never read the book myself, Mein Kampf.
Eh, a 'bit, though I am unsure of my 'eh'.
It seems to me 'many a view can be unsafe with the wrong person in power,
Of course one can argue some views are easier adopted to bad ends than others.
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Some people argue that child sacrifice was common among the Caananites,
Though many people disagree that the theory is 'true.
. .
"It can be argued that God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac (Genesis 22) but this is a false and smug analogy. The correct syllogism is this: Whereas evil spirits posing as deities invite humans to slaughter their children for fun and profit, God called Isaac to sacrifice Isaac knowing he would stop Abraham before he did so. God then provided Abraham with a more appropriate sacrifice (Genesis 22:13). Clearly, Yahweh never wanted blood. Instead of human blood, God insists on something very different:
It is kindness that I want, not animal sacrifices. (Matthew 9:13)
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hosea 6:6)
I do not reprimand you because of your sacrifices and the burnt offerings you always bring me. And yet I do not need bulls from your farms or goats from your flocks; all the animals in the forest are mine and the cattle on thousands of hills. All the wild birds are mine and all living things in the fields. If I were hungry, I would not ask you for food, for the world and everything in it is mine. Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats? Let the giving of thanks be your sacrifice to God, and give the Almighty all that you promised. (Psalm 50:8-15)"
I forget if child sacrifice was common to that time and area,
One could see Abraham as a hard push 'against such traditions,
That may have seeped a bit into his people, in the area they lived, of themselves. (Shrug I don't know religion or history very well, I'm guessing.)
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Some people might not think that the destruction of a nation that practices evil practices to be bad.
Course one can argue innocents such as children,
Course to that one can argue the Bible to be the work of man,
Course to that many religious people might disagree,
Eh, I'm an Atheist.
And of course one can argue what 'is an evil society,
But eh eh eh I say, I wasn't around thousands of years ago.
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I don't know much about Islam or the Quran,
So I eat information on it I hear, fairly well salted,
Nothing against you,
Just my way to want to be contrary, to better understand,
Again, I think it could be interesting to hear your thoughts,
Some hours hence.
. .
Especially as I have no near plans to research the subject in depth,
I can learn a 'little by reading here,
By thinking, 'little bit of Googling the subject myself, 'little bit.
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"Somewhat desperately now, Gerecke tried one last time to engage Goering on the "eternal values and how a man can be prepared to die, to meet his God."
"Surrender your heart and soul completely to your savior, Herr Reichsmarshel," he said.
Goering was in no mood to listen. For the last time, Goering told Gerecke that he was a member of the Christian church, but that he couldn't accept the teachings of the Christian faith. He ridiculed the idea that the Bible was written by scribes divinely inspired by God. He refused the fundamental Christian doctrine of atonement- that Jesus through his suffering and resurrection, died for the forgiveness of man's sin and to reconcile God with his creation.
Gerecke pleaded with Goering "This is what Jesus said," Gerecke told him "This isn't what Gerecke is saying, but this is God speaking to you. Won't you accept this? Just say, 'Jesus save me.'
"No!" Goering barked. "I can't do that. This Jesus you always speak to me of- to me he is just another smart Jew."
"Herr Reichsmarshel," Gerecke said "This Jesus is my savior who suffered, bled and died that I may go to Heaven some day. He paid for my sins."
"Ach!" Goering yelled. "You don't believe that yourself. When one is dead, that's the end of everything." pg 260
"Gerecke knew Goering was, like Rosenberg, Gottglaubig. As a rationalist Goering wanted to go through the motions, believing none of the mysterious of the Church while retaining some insurance in case Christianity really represented the truth,"
pg 265
Gerecke ended up refusing Goering Communion, as Goering continued to refuse to accept Christ.
Mission at Nuremberg, An American Army Chaplain and the Trial of the Nazis by Tim Townsend
Course, who knows what is in people's minds?
Another individual Julius Streicher, speaks contradictory.
"Other prisoners were less sentimental that night. Gerecke had left Julius Streicher some devotional literature in hops that the Christmas spirit would extend even to those who rejected his faith.
But Streicher told Gustave Gilbert that the Christ story didn't inspire or move him.
The newspaper editor and propogandaist said he was his own philospher.
"I've often thought about this buisness about God creating the universe," Streicher told Gilbert. "I always ask myself, if God made everything, who made God? You see you can go crazy thinking on about that. And all that stuff about Christ- the Hew who was the Son of God. I don't know. It sounds like propoganda."
pg 186
Course he also says
"I am now by God my father!" pg 275 and some other things denying any guilt and "heil Hitler!" right before he is hanged.
Not that I'm saying he was or was not guilty enough to be hanged, but he 'did have an influence on many people's hate towards Jews.
Mission at Nuremberg, An American Army Chaplain and the Trial of the Nazis by Tim Townsend
Still, , , I don't think I'm for 'banning Mein Kampf, or Nazis.
I don't think I'd 'join such, or encourage such myself, for various reasons. . .
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@ponikshiy
I'd argue that religions see many variations, interpretations, and evolutions of their followers,
Even governments, the American 2nd Amendment as an example.
Still, I've never researched strong into the Quran or Islam,
And don't have strong opinions on the subject.
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@ponikshiy
I could be interesting to hear your thoughts,
Come hours hence.
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@949havoc
One 'could argue,
That one realizes other beliefs and methods are 'workable,
Or at least adoptable by people.
One's preference and force of conflict, subtle or blatant,
Becoming what 'is.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
The theory of allowance of other views,
Might assume that people will choose the 'best values, (Which one often assumes is one's own)
But such assumes that other people have similar values and base give ins,
But values and base give ins differ,
The same conclusions are not reached.
People often value their preferences, their tribe,
Be the reason people oppose various views, I'd suppose,
Lest their own preferences, values, and tribe, be washed away.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Course, tolerance and an appreciation of freedom, are not uncommon ideals,
As well as other paths, that encourage competition.
Such as an appreciation of how variety and newness, can be used to polish one's own values.
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@sadolite
I don't know much about terraforming,
But maybe 'some terraforming that would apply to barren planets, are different than Earth Terraforming,
More damaging I mean.
I can imagine Sci Fi terraforming including throwing comets at a planet, or activating it's volcanos somehow.
. . .
Still, there 'is Earth terraforming, from my point of view, though more localized.
. .
Arguably deforestation is terraforming,
With the intention of growing farmland.
. .
Ooh! Or the Netherlands with all it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_control_in_the_Netherlands
Dams, another change of the land,
Though I'd worry about it going to far,
Terraforming land, seems to me capable of unintended effects,
Like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl.
. . .
Also, people don't always have the means.
The capable/willing governments, population, material, science, peace.
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