Lemming

Are Free Will and Autonomy linked?

Sounds dismissive of Libertarian focus on freedom,

You say feel free to 'feel,

Ought or not,

People have freedom as well?

If one is bound by fate,

Is there a difference in being bound by other humans?

One might say that physical slavery brings discomfort,

But if the slavery was 'comfortable,

Would this make it 'right?

What was your experience like in Brazil?

Did you know the language before/after?

Slavery 'was in Brazil, so I imagine they have 'some race politics?

I think zedvictor4's right,

People 'are selective about what life they prioritize,

I suppose it 'does contrast with other beliefs and wants of a person,

But,

Seems to me contrasting desires/beliefs, are common in humans.

One 'tries to avoid cognitive dissonance, 'usually I think,

But it can be difficult.

. . .

If people are convinced to go quietly,

As many people were in the Holocaust,

Then guns don't matter 'so much.

If the government and population plan extensively, act suddenly at once, as happened in Rwanda I think,

I'm not sure 'what Tutsis could have done without having armed enclaves, and even then. . .

. . .

Though I could be wrong,

I think that BrotherD.Thomas  is an atheist, who trolls, pretending to be a Christian,

Not really worth engaging with, in my view.

It 'is possible that they are actually a Christian, who may or may not be crazy,

But their posts seem too insane, to be a genuine Christian,

Unless they're crazy from nature or nurture in life.

Though,

Even if BrotherD.Thomas 'is what I expect them to be,

Seems to me abnormal to spend this much time in character this much time trolling people.

But I've known other Anti-Theists, who spend an excessive amount of time with frequent and strange argument.

While there exists areas such as ethnic neighborhoods,

Chinatown in San Francisco as an example,

And any other number of black, white, Irish, Italian, various nationalities, ethnicities,

I don't think you'd be successful forcing people to move,

Or enticing people to move,

In large enough numbers to claim a state,

Well, maybe a tiny state, Like Rhode Island,

But the State of Jefferson would have held a number of people, still wasn't successful in becoming a state.

If you were absurdly rich,

Or had a huge cult following,

I imagine you could form small communities in a state,

Maybe expand over time through various means,

But in just 'asking the here and now people, I'm doubtful any would want to go for it.

The State of Jefferson almost happened a few times,

About politics, not race though.

. . .

Hm, other examples,

Though,

Maybe that's because the government wasn't prepared for the partition,

. . .

Ah, there's modern Israel,

'Obviously lot of controversy there.

No positive or successful examples are coming to my mind or Google searches yet.

Though I haven't Googled that much yet.

@3RU7AL

I like Best.Korea's point of 'Free from 'What?

There's also the point that when individuals 'believe in free will,

They often take greater action/autonomy.

Though I suppose individuals can 'still believe in a lack of free will,

Yet believe they 'might still be capable of an action or not, depending on whether they exert their will,

Or whether their will is exerted 'for them.

Though I 'assume humans respond more often to 'their own exerting of their will idea.

@NoBodyInParticular

Zeno,

. . .

I suppose one might argue that the world was always going to line up a certain way,

'Once the act has occurred.

But then fate becomes an afterthought, a stating of what 'was.

Until then,

How does one 'know,

Maybe even after, given how some people are crazy and see not reality or the past.

And that awareness of 'If this had been that,

One can look with awareness of what they might do, that fate doesn't end up as such,

Though I suppose it doesn't really solve the problem of them being pushed by something else/Fate 'To 'Be aware of what they might do.

Is this the direction of what you believe/hope people are?

Having individual eternal souls?

Or ideally 'If we could make immortality, what you think would be good to be?

Other?

. . .

I say 'hope, because I tend to be very iffy on my own beliefs,

That I think 'maybe,

And some of the maybes make me happy, that even though they're maybes, I'm hopeful that they 'are true.

Is it a question of a comfort threshold then,

You would not want to be X uncomfortable, forever?

What do you mean by wealth?

Some people say nice socks,

Some people say private planes,

I 'do think you'd have more success with average people,

In framing it as people having governments and laws that represent themselves,

Rather than we don't like X people.

Though really near everyone dislikes 'some type of X people,

And a number of laws exist for 'some X people,

Though usually for cultural/nurture reasons,

Example, criminal X people, like child molesters being restricted from certain locations or having to self report to their neighbors.

. . .

Hm, not much information on Wikipedia about New Africa,

. . .

I'm not familiar with New Europe,

Though it looks more a coalition of European countries based on geography and keeping against military aggression,

Rather than politics, purity?

. . .

Aztlan,

Seems more a myth or historical theory of where the Aztecs migrated from.

@Math_Enthusiast

I don't know if life would be more challenging or not,

I'm 29 years old,

. . I 'imagine if I was 122 years old, life would be a different experience,

Though I am not speaking of the body difficulties or mental deterioration,

But the 'perspective,

It's theoretical to me,

And some 300, 500, 1000, even more so.

. . .

The idea of immortality 'just out of my grasp irritates me,

Though 'eventually sun might blow, or some other cataclysm,

I looked online for information on immortals once,

Well, realistic fictional ones,

The idea or war, disease, slipping in the shower and hitting one's head,

I imagine many immortals would not actually live 'so long, though some might.

. . .

Of immortality here and now,

It makes me all the more disliking my laziness and cowardice,

To not attempt all I can to become wealthy and live as long as I can, 

Force research into life extension tech as much as I can,

Though,

On another hand, I'm not convinced we're anywhere near immortality tech.

I don't have strong views on suicide,

I'd physically stop a family member or close friend, encourage them to live,

I feel a will to live myself, see many reasons for it.

But that's not to say other people 'can't have a will to die, a lack of one to live,

Not to say that they can't have reasons.

And I 'do like self determination,

Though the question then becomes are they out of their mind,

As a drunk person might be prevented from driving their car.

. . .

Though,

This 'baseline I'm positing,

I doubt it's really 'objective.

. . . .

I don't know if we should stop people from committing suicide,

I'm unsure of the value of humans, even if my family, friends, and myself ring strong in me,

Well,

That's more, 'Might be more a preference for myself, than a preference for them,

My preferring they stay alive, so to speak. I'm uncertain.

. . .

I recall in Futurama they had suicide booths.

. . .

I don't know,

If someone was being eaten alive by ants with no hope of escape,

I think I'd say, well, your choice,

Certainly 'looks painful.

Wouldn't surprise me if many people chose to end it quicker, than later.

@Nyxified

How are you 'you,

Without your memories?

Good point,

Why didn't they leave then?

I don't know, hm going to Google, for my own curiosity, but first post my own surface thoughts,

They were used to it, because of slavery, which is bad,

Or they hoped it would change with Reconstruction,

Grant worked against the KKK,

Economic opportunity was available with all the dead people from the Civil War,

The Racists still wanted workers, so did not make life uncomfortable for that reason or extent all the time,

Many 'did leave, but not all/most,

Racist movement was disorganized.

Not 'enough Racists.

I didn't say forced relocation of people by race wasn't racism.

Hm, which post?

Control F "State", page, 1,2,3,4, ah 5,

Posts #123 and #124

Oregon had laws that excluded blacks,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_black_exclusion_laws#:~:text=The%20Oregon%20black%20exclusion%20laws,black%20settlers%20from%20Oregon%27s%20borders.

Got repealed eventually.

I'm doubtful one could get the rest of America to support legislatively forcing people out of land they have lived in for generations,

(Well, modern America, and maybe, and maybe again depending 'what people)

Not that I'm saying exclusion is good, or bad.

But once a person 'becomes a resident,

Seems to me hard to take that right away from them.

Also comes off as wrong, to most people.

. . .

I suppose one could try making life for an ethnicity unpleasant, until they leave,

Such as holding Nazi flag parties or something,

But again, I doubt anyone could convince enough racists, to enact such a plan, assuming it could even work.

I'm doubtful one could even gather enough racists to make a sizeable number of functioning number of interconnected communities,

Though I suppose one might argue parts of America are already like that, where sizeable numbers of various ethnic groups live among their own ethnicities,

Eh, so maybe one could make small versions work,

Something the size of a state seems doubtful to me though.

Where does anyone say they want to destroy the constitution or force people to move?

I suppose people could 'choose to move,

An example of such is the Free State Project, Libertarians.

Or just look to past American history,

Our history is 'based on people moving to new areas and having the law reflect their beliefs.

I 'think I'd want more,

But I'm not sure how well an Ego/ The Individual would weather so many years.

Will I remember my childhood?

Who I was?

There's a game called Kenshi,

Where some intelligent robots eventually need to reset to their factory start,

Or they start going weird.

I view strongly my memory, as part of who I am,

Yet,

One can only manage 'so much memory I'd figure.

Though one can suppose in this immortal scenario, perfect memory I suppose.

. . .

I'd 'imagine (But not know) that some old people are lonely, look forward to meeting their family, friends in the afterlife,

Of course with us all, we 'expect to die sooner, than later, later being 300 + years.

. .

. .

Of suicide,

Are people then not given the freedom to quit living when they want?

I suppose if one saw death and suicide as unequivocal evil or a choice only a crazy person would choose,

Society 'might remove from people the ability to die.

But you say crisis, implying it might be acceptable in some situations,

But that in a 'normal life, a person would be expected to want to live. . .

Hm,

Good health might be cheating a bit,

It feels a bit as saying,

How long would you want to live, if you wanted to live?

An attempt to bring heaven to earth so to speak,

For there 'is pain in existence,

Maybe pain in heaven too,

But on Earth, 'certainly there is war, jobs, disease, depression, accidents, loss, change.

Broadly speaking, . .

. .

'Some parts might be amendable,

But if a person lived infinitely, seems likely they'd 'eventually want to die, for 'some reason.

. . .

I agree though, that humans often want more.

@sadolite

I'm sure 'eventually there would be another Big Bang,

That if you're lucky would toss you into a habitable planet.

Though that's the worst case scenario of being trapped in space or something.

. . .

Forever 'is a long time,

But one can still enjoy much in life on an average salary,

Even on a poor salary,

Besides, seems likely in most 'normal circumstances, that circumstances can improve.

@Math_Enthusiast

I'd say it 'can be a lie,

A truth,

A theory,

Subjective.

Depending on the person.

I'm pretty happy with my,

. . .

I don't take my solutions in this question seriously,

They're just off the top of my head,

Rather than me thinking they're objectively correct.

@sadolite

If one is alive,

Eventually improvement may come.

@NoOneInParticular

"1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him.

2 All share a common destiny--the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, [1] the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good man, so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them.

3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead.

4 Anyone who is among the living has hope --even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.

8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil.

9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun-- all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

11 I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.

12 Moreover, no man knows when his hour will come: As fish are caught in a cruel net, or birds are taken in a snare, so men are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly upon them."

http://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV_Bible/ECC+9.html#:~:text=Anyone%20who%20is%20among%20the,off%20than%20a%20dead%20lion!&text=For%20the%20living%20know%20that,memory%20of%20them%20is%20forgotten.

Double negative was what I was thinking yeah.

@NoOneInParticular

Wheatley: Um..."True". I'll go "True". Eh, that was easy. I'll be honest, I might have heard that one before though. Sort of cheating.

- Portal 2

A person might be happy living a day,

I 'am glad for the day,

But I'd like to live one more day,

And then when that day arrives,

Might be, I'd like to live one more day.

@hey-yo

Probably 'would suck a fair bit,

Still,

If one compared it to what humans have already experienced,

Even young people, kids and teenagers,

Can be blind, deaf, no legs, or muscular disease.

Still,

As you say subjective,

Different people, different thresholds of preference, enjoyment of life.

@zedvictor4

I'm already a brain in a bone, meat, and blood jar, I suppose,

Moving to a glass and electronics one, might be similar.

Though the idea of us being able to manipulate humans that much disquiets me,

Well, depending on how it's done,

Though I suppose maybe it not 'ought disquiet me,

Many science fiction and fantasy possibilities have their own real world comparisons.

@NoOneInParticular

Oldest human I've ever heard of verified by modern times was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment

Though she was 'younger than her age

@linate

Well, I don't believe in an afterlife,

So the question becomes less going someplace better,

As it becomes not existing.

I 'do get a sudden desperate desire now and then,

To risk and commit crime, attempt to make a ton of money,

That I can force the world around me to get me to live as long as possible.

But I'm lazy and fear to lose what little what and time I have.

. . .

Hm, if I believed in the Abrahamic Heaven though,

I suppose I'd rather get to Heaven when I get there,

Supposing I believed it likely I'd be going to such a place.

Though some people are in pretty suffering situations,

Or if lived some thousands of years might get tired of life.

@NoOneInParticular
"Is familiar Hell, better than unknown Heaven?

Oh I don't even know what propositional logic is.

Well, when people say statements such as,

It is, not raining,

Something 'is,

'Not,

It is not not raining,

Something is,

Not,

Not,

Like turning a lightswitch, on off on off. 

I suppose Chatbots might encourage more in person communication,

For that desire of authenticity,

At least until the Androids.

It's a sunny day,

Vibrant, blue the sky,

Flowers are pretty,

Upon bush and tree,

Nice day for walking.

I think many people are the more bothered, the more intelligent an animal is,

Or 'appears to be to them.

I 'do eat meat,

But it bothers me sometimes.

I'd support society removing meat from our diet over time,

. . .

Even if someone keeps a slave,

That doesn't mean they think slavery is right,

Or that society should attack more people, and take more slaves.

. . .

I am curious on your thoughts on human slaves?

@b9_ntt

If AI 'could be made conscious/sentient,

Then I see that as a strong argument to outlaw intelligent AI research.

It is wrong to make slaves,

Or people,

Or people who might suffer because of their abilities,

Such as someone with enormous mental or physical disability.

. . .

Course, if AI is a weapon,

'Not making it, means disarming ourselves.

@NoOneInParticular

Yet another example of how the West ought to have conquered the world after WW2.

(Not meant as a serious or justified thought,

But it 'is a passing thought)

Why assume other's statement's are logical?

Just go with assumption that the speaker is incoherent from crazy or intentionally making a nonsensical statement.

Just assume statement cancels itself out,

This statement is, Positive,

A lie, Negative,

1 minus 1=0

Doesn't it hurt not to have the positive incentives?

Having 'any food, is positive,

But there is 'tastier food,

Hm, can coercion only be threat to take away something, one has,

Or can it be threat not to 'give something, one does not yet have?

. . .

The thought of coercion has occurred to me due to a debate of mine,

I dislike these moments when I seem to forget basic concepts,

'Suddenly it feels like everything could be classified as coercion,

But that's not right,

Well, I'm sure if I think and read some,

I'll remember.

What is coercion?

Been nice to know you,

But rest of life get's busy at times,

And debating sometimes loses it's moment for people.

Maybe see you again someday,

But even if not,

Good luck in life.

UK Member of parliament rule, I 'think,

I'm not sure about royalty or Prime Minister.

USA President rule, I 'think,

I 'think a person being able to vote varies by state, though.

@NoOneInParticularBeforeIGoToBed

What stops X from editing videos, for false accusations against innocent individuals?

I would still vote for Trump over Biden,

Though in the past I voted third party,

And should Trump run again, I'll 'probably vote third party.

What's being balanced is how much Trump's incompetence, manners, moral failings harm America,

Vs how the other candidate's policies harm my vision of America.

. . .

Also their incompetence, manners, moral failings,

But I'm not saying Biden is or is not that,

Just that there are still rational reasons to vote for Trump.

He's an old man,

Maybe he'd die in office,

Maybe if he were to have dementia, he'd be more a figurehead, but politics I like more, would still win out more,

I doubt danger of another "Protest" incident from him, as two terms, that's it conventionally.,

Besides, he has not the support for such, as president or as a candidate.

My Dad's conversations 'often, though not always repeat,

I don't believe he has dementia,

I only mention it, as it rolls my thoughts.

I think I might prefer to go camping, if I had dementia,

Die alone, when no longer able to care for myself,

Though on another hand, that sounds rather painful.

I suppose there are dangerous occupations or pursuits in life, one can take,

Whether for glory, pleasure, or help towards others.

. . .

People who commit suicide,

Or people who commit mass shooting,

They're not the same,

But my mind ties a line in their seeming giving up,

Though I suppose the mass shooter might be working towards something in their last moments,

Such pathetic reasons, logic, motivations, targets they have.

Of course suicide is often a spontaneous action I hear,

Though not always,

And there can be reasons beyond or in despair for people I suppose,

In how they see their life and action,

Still seems a bit a waste,

Not that people 'have to live for others,

But, people often 'want to have had meaning,

Though meaning can be found in solitude and self.

. . .

If I went to sleep in the morning after work,

I could wake up around noon, still get sun, be more sensible, alert,

But I'm happy to be off work, suddenly a bit energized,

All the more if I eat,

Well, I sleep after work sometimes.

@NoOneInParticular

Urgh, stupid misspelling.

. . .

I'm not suggesting anything,

I just find it odd that you don't want to send tanks to Ukraine.

Well, if the automobile gets the gun somewhere. . .

Same as a gun get's the bullet somewhere. . .

You said Ukraine didn't want automobiles.

Ever hear of a tank?

Likely so, for 'my case.

Though I don't see why even 'purely Atheistic societies could not be opposed to prostitution.

Well I haven't participated in the past,

Only 'just posted in it about 30 seconds ago.

. . .

I voted against legalizing marijuana in Oregon,

I didn't see the need to add new and easy access to something I viewed as harmful without a prescription,

Ask me to vote against cheeseburgers or alcohol (I don't drink),

And I probably would have been for the status quo,

Because the people were already hooked and unwilling to let go.

That said,

I've long despised the common 'punishments for marijuana,

Absolut-Ly r*****ed,

Send a normal person to prison to be influenced by criminals? BAH!

. . .

I 'do find it difficult to argue against the concept of freedom to sell one's services.

I don't like working my job,

I can understand the concept that some people would prefer to sell their body.

I'd sell one of my kidneys if it was legal and I could get enough money,

Though that doesn't making selling my kidney morally right or wrong,

Just a commentary on preference.

. . 

I don't like that part of a person,

If they are the type to frequent prostitutes or strip clubs,

Comes off as dirty, taking advantage.

And many people 'are taken advantage of,

They fall into a profession due to having no options, pressure, coercion, or temptation.

, ,

Though I 'must again admit, 'some prefer it,

And think nothing of it.

. .

Yet there being abortions, orphans, and single parent kids,

'Bothers me.

And the argument exists,

Oooh, if only it was legal and properly managed, people wouldn't be mistreated. (I'm struggling not to use a mocking voice)

. .

Or. . Perhaps people find such behavior 'Acceptable, when it is legalized, socially condoned. (And yet a doubt in the back of my head that stats might not back me)

. .

. . .

It's just sex, alright.

It's just con-consent, alright.

What I said above,

Isn't meant to say prostitution is or is not consensual.

I mean it,

To comment on moral switches.

I've been wondering on a question, ever since a comment by RationalMadman,

About Why the 'Why matters?

. .

I didn't think much of his answer, but it had me thinking,

And I mused on Absurdism a bit.

I'm not bothered by people not liking prostitution.

Though arguably an ankle contest could be about 'beauty, than titillation,

The thought stands, that people develop an attraction to 'other aspects of an individual, if some aspects are hidden.

Take countries where 'much skin is shown, or women go topless.

. .

Though I admit a 'huge weak point for me on this topic,

Is I don't know what the statistics of it are.

. . .

. . .

There are more factors than I know,

But off the top of my head.

If people are taught that others are less, not equals, not people,

I can imagine objectification, force being more common,

If people are taught that others ought be forcibly 'punished for showing skin,

Force more common,

If breaking the law is seen as acceptable,

Then people might think less of breaking other's consent,

If laws 'allow consent to be broken,

Such as rape and marry laws or culture,

Force becomes more common.

. .

I won't deny that hormones exist,

Especially in young people,

But hormones don't 'have to be a cause for an individual.

People should be encouraged to lock up their bikes, (In places they might be stolen)

But that doesn't mean stealing bikes that were not locked up is acceptable behavior,

. .

Is the problem that someone trusted others,

Or that another individual or location was clearly the type who ought never be in a position of trust?

@IlDiavolo

I mean it's an action I tally up in what I like and dislike about a person.

I don't mean it as an argument for prostitution causing or preventing rape,

Though I might suggest an unsubstantiated theory on a different thread.

I'll state further my views on prostitution here,

What does 'proper mean?

I suppose even for nudists,

Proper dress is nudity,

Then the question becomes people ought behavior properly,

Though I wonder if one's expression can be considered a form of clothing.

Clothing 'can signal,

Less clothing or alluring expression, 'seemingly an invitation to pursue.

. . .

Still, I think oromagi has a point,

On his arguement of clothing not being a 'major point in the question.

I'd agree language can be ambiguous, that context helps greatly in understanding.

I like that movie, Jurassic Park.

. . .

@fauxlaw

I don't see the problem with administrators or parents banning books from their libraries.

Individuals can still purchase the book themselves somewhere,

But I don't see how it's in people's interests to expose their kids or private community to ideas they view as harmful.

I've always counted it as a mark against someone, if they were the type to frequent strip clubs or prostitutes.