Lemming

Where does the opinion and the objective,

Come into play?

Also, I'm going to sleep,

Need to work in a few hours.

@TheUnderdog

Arguably we're all delusional about something.

Though of course outside the norms exist,

Or outside what an individual thinks ought be desired,

Or desires for their community.

@Self Idle Thoughts

People appreciate presentation, I suppose.

An Otherkin wearing a dog collar, vs an Otherkin in camping gear.

A Homosexual in drag, vs a Homosexual in a suit.

. . .

Arguably Otherkin would be brain related,

Though Trans might argue against this,

I'd argue people desire based on their experiences, body, and brain.

Thus, seems reasonable Otherkin also have 'different brain scans.

. . .

Trans make history argument,

Wouldn't surprise me if one could find individuals identifying as Otherkin in history.

. . .

If a human is not identified 'strictly by intelligence,

Would any other animal,

An argument for why it may be reasonable for otherkin to think of themselves as an animal other than human,

Yet be able to speak English,

Be more intelligent than the animal.

@TheUnderdog

Do you have a 'specific 'individual, as an example I mean,

Not that you're wrong,

But I'm not sure what otherkin even 'mean, by identifying as a wolf.

Take that for example,

That's a bit vague,

Some people dye their hair,

Or live lifestyles where they go to dances and music,

Because they identify spiritually and psychologically with the look and lifestyle,

Like the Kings in Fallout New Vegas,

Aesthetics.

Though as this says soul,

I suppose some people might believe they have the soul of or were once a wolf.

Still, they're not going to suddenly start prowling around naked, or attack people to eat.

Have you any examples of people claiming to be wolves?

I don't think it's that bad looking, though some angles are better than others.

Personally,

I think it likely that K_Michael is right,

Though I don't 'know,

That it's more a private activity, a hobby, and not taken so literally by the furry community.

Plenty of sports teams are are called some type of animal,

Even see people in mascot uniforms.

With the level of plastic surgery, one sees in some places, like the Leopard Man,

Though I don't know if he's a furry.

One can assume 'appearance can be changed, as people like, to a degree.

And if people want themselves called X,

Well, many people are willing to accommodate that.

. . .

The trans argument though,

Pushes for normalization,

'More than that really, it pushes for trans treatment as medically correct and humane,

To the point that children are encouraged in it.

Which, depending on our environment, evolution, 'could happen, 'maybe,

I'm not a scientist,

But then, another path,

Could also make humans a bit more furry,

. . .

As time goes by,

I wonder a bit about America's all inclusivity being a bit mistaken,

It's not true to the 'hilt anyhow,

People 'generally, have lines they don't cross, behavior they demand,

Community rules.

If America was primarily Atheist, or of X belief,

I'd be against normalizing and encouraging the belief I was not,

Which is not to say 'no discussion,

I wouldn't be for Re-Educating or executing, institutionalizing anyone,

Hm, but the 'encouragement, normalization people give opposing beliefs.

. . .

Though perhaps they are not opposing beliefs those encouraging.

I suppose if I wanted to 'truly what living a day of life as my last,

Way to do, would be to hire an assassin, or some death method to kick in at midnight.

I imagine the 'form of the 'last effects one's choices though.

Whether it is self chosen, or an outside source.

Sadness at self caused, defiance against an outside,

At times.

. . .

I don't mind living as 'if bit closer,

Than as 'if longer, myself,

I 'could die today,

A car could hit me, some crazy shooter, tiny meteorite from the sky, man eating bear,

Not likely, not 'likely,

But enjoy life I say, in the moment,

Though it's good to keep in mind the future,

If one 'does live, well, I want to live tomorrow, as well as today.

And my hundredth birthday, as well as today.

Well, maybe I want to enjoy them even better,

But though I ramble,

. . .

Family members, friends, enemies could die today,

One never knows,

I'd rather try than not, that we not have a bad last moment,

Though good to do so, without being stepped on.

@#647 Second Half

Though really I suppose any emotion would do,

To fill the function of replacement,

Of morose,

I've heard people say they can't just choose to be happy,

Myself, I think it depends.

Even in some horrible situation or place,

Why 'can't  a person choose to be happy?

If it were some sci fi horror scenario,

Where the alien tracked people by sadness,

Isn't survival 'reason enough to embrace an emotion?

If if it tracks happiness, and you need lead the alien away from loved ones?

Might be, it's easier to be happy, thinking happy thoughts of saving one's family,

But that's the word,

'Easier.

. . .

Will needs a stimulus, a reason. . .

. . .

Course, there's also the view of the brain as a muscle,

In a way of phrasing.

Use it in certain manners,

Get's strengthened in certain manners,

But muscles,

Still need nutrition, still can be overworked,

Likely easier to will,

With good nutrition, not hungry, sunlight, less stress,

Likely easier to will,

If brain is well exercised, in 'that particular manner.

Master of sit-ups,

Not a master of pull ups,

'Less they've been working pull ups as well, as the sit-ups.

I don't expect I'll ever be truly honest with people,

Maybe, should my immediate family members die,

But as I hope and expect for old age deaths,

Odds are against me.

. . .

In times of most downheartedness,

I find anger to be my best revitalizer,

More anger at the downheartedness, than any one.

Your own sources (Shrug)

There are more classified documents than,

For the presidents eyes only, documents.

I've not head anyone say 'what the documents speak of,

You yourself say 'plausible, indicating that you don't 'know what the documents speak of either, only that they are classified.

I'm 'pretty sure a president has to do more than 'think declassified, after being held accountable for refusing to return documents when asked.

There 'is a difference between accidentally forgetting documents, then returning them as soon as they are found.

And intentionally removing documents, and refusing to return them when asked by the government.

Though sure,

Not a great look for Biden,

It doesn't equal with Trump situation, for me.

But humans 'are aware, conscious,

Well, of a 'fair bit.

Take TWS1405_2's comment on fight or flight,

Valuable I am sure to our ancestors,

One is walking outside with a friend, t's dark, and suddenly there's a lion,

Getting pumped enough to kill the lion, valuable,

Getting pumped enough to outrun the lion or one's friend, valuable.

We're 'aware of fight or flight,

By research and experience.

It's even something we take into account, as it can be dialed back or up.

Because we're aware of it, we might habituate ourselves to not suddenly shooting whatever surprises us in the woods,

Especially if hunting in a group, need to look and verify.

Maybe if we were being attacked by wolves, more our habit to just shoot whatever surprises us,

As we have reason to expect the wolves, better to 'use the instincts.

Sometimes instincts get screwed up, from a perspective,

Take PTSD,

DANGER DANGER,

There's value, in some situations, when surprised, woken sleeping, unaware,

Of fighting,

War, or being hunted by wolves,

In safe home with family and spouse, No,

And so the instinct must be tuned, therapy, control.

. . .

Though I'd agree,

People might just use instinct as a vague explanation at times,

Without looking towards reason or other explanations.

It sounds that you dislike how often people use instinct as the explanation for a behavior,

But at the same time, you identified and admitted some instincts exist.

Maybe even you feel there is no need for instincts.

Myself, I like instincts well 'enough,

Though I'm probably broader in my definition than is correct,

Personally, I don't see why instincts shouldn't be learned, or developed, resisted, or followed,

People be a soldier, a gamer, a hunter, a painter, learn reflexes in response to stimuli, develop intuition in certain situations, even if what is sensed cannot be identified.

Might be better if 'can be identified,

But to me that's just leaning 'into the instinct, following through on it.

People have proclivities, born into, developed into,

Often useful.

Though I'll say again, after reading Wikipedia,

Pretty sure my 'broad view of instincts is considered wrong by educated people.

Though I don't mean it as a stab at furries,

Who I assume treat it as a hobby, rather than identify as,

Like cosplayers.

And I suppose there 'is fantasy and science fiction novels, games, movies,

Where people can change into another species.

There 'are biological exceptions,

And theoretically possible alterations to humans using science, (In future)

And I suppose a society 'could allow men and women to dress as, call as, act as the opposite sex,

But dress, act, and call all one likes,

Biological norm would be the truth.

From my perspective anyhow.

Males and females possess differences.

@#49

Would you not say, that you have a mind of your own?

I'd suppose topography, wind, temperature, and other effects outside the water, push and pull it's path,

Does the water ever push or pull itself?

What would such mean or require?

. . .

The thought presents itself,

Due to my thinking on. . . Sociology, I suppose,

People and government's intent at times, to direct individuals and groups as they view right.

Hm,

But of course it fails at times,

Whether because,

The controls cannot use power of X magnitude,

Or fine enough control,

Or foresee ends,

One might say the people could not be effected,

Created their 'own currents,

But I am a strong believer in nurture,

For whence did nature come from?

Heh,

Other view though, is whence did nurture come from, if not existence, all the rules and expected outcomes already.

. . .

But of course,

One's own current occurs at times,

But is this not because of it being unexpected and/or failure to control?

Mix some Mentos and Pop,

All one did was put two objects together,

Then the objects created a Fizzzz,

But we're aware of such,

. . .

We attempt to control equality,

Which is not wrong, but,

Differences,

Lead to different outcomes,

Even if one feeds everyone equal pellets,

Some are larger and smaller individuals than others, are hungrier or less hungry by said diet,

Feed everyone as is equal to their hunger needs,

Some people are bigger or smaller,

And get more or less time to eat, by larger or smaller pellet,

Have more or less enjoyment.

Do you get, what I'm getting at?

. . . .

Perhaps it is vague,

(From most humans perspectives)

Oughts,

Acceptable levels, situations, outcomes,

. . .

Though I do not say people ought not act, to achieve their desire.

But even as I say that, nihilism and absurdism, invasive in my thoughts, speaking,

Well, that's enough random thoughts, for the moment.

@WokeBlackConservative,

'Bit of a nebulous, white privilege, 'I think.

People have characteristics, and by those characteristics and environment, experience different outcomes.

Tall people, short people, blonde, redhead, brunette, black haired, Irish, Italian, Black, White, Atheist, Theist.

So on, so forth.

Though one can arguably use statistics to show uneven outcomes,

If I walk about some all black location, I don't expect I'll feel my 'privilege.

Still, laws have changed,

Slavery is gone,

No back of the bus,

Blacks aren't excluded from Oregon anymore.

. . .

Still, when did it stop being 'such a problem?

(Though arguably it's still a problem in some facets of America)

Well, suppose I asked when did serial killing become or stop being a problem?

Some say it petered off from the 80s,

But of course serial killers still exist,

There were school shooting before our modern day,

But it 'became a problem at some point,

People a 'bit subjective, when something is a problem.

Different people take different action at different points of inconvenience.

Is there some statistical point, where white privilege is no longer a problem?

But is it 'really white privilege that's the problem?

Even should blacks and whites have rough the same judge decisions,

Inequality exists elsewhere,

Some group above this or that group,

If blacks and whites had equal statistics,

Would there then be black and white privilege together?

Discriminating against short people, Asian people, Hispanic people?

People are different.

Their qualities effecting their outcomes.

Hm, I'm rambling a bit incoherent,

And using rhetorical questions too much, perhaps,

But these are my thoughts.

. . .

@NoOneInParticular

Beavis And Butthead white privilege

My thought is,

What a cr@p definition of woman.

I also don't think much of the absurd genderisms people use.

A bold idea of unusual thought.

Cons, for Democrats,

She still isn't aligned with the Democrats in policies/values.

She 'could revitalize the Republican Party. That the Democrats plans are stalled.

Pros, for Democrats,

She could fracture the Republican Party. That the Democrats can push their values easier.

She could revitalize the Republican Party. That the Democrats and Republicans work together healthy again.

First world could probably afford it better,

If it's lab created meat.

Getting it from 'people,

Would be a culture change too far for most people, I think.

I wonder how much wealth ought a Monarch have?

Personally, I'm inclined to place all their citizens in a line of wealth, then give the monarch spending and private property equal to that of the people in the very middle,

Of property and income.

Though I'd agree there 'is state propaganda,

I think it's a bit 'everywhere, than just in the news,

Ads being what they are,

Companies saying they support this or that,

Course media and companies don't always agree with the establishment,

Send out different messages at times, free country a fair bit,

US 'government propaganda, not 'so bad, as some countries,

But of course, still there.

'Does sound a lot of luck at times, what get's one long life,

But I'll settle for just being able to be more active in old age,

Use it, (My muscles, bones) so I don't lose it.

Also I think a 'bit of some, exercise, adds towards happiness,

In the now,

. . .

Why ProPro?

How about yourself?

Just say something short, generic, such as,

A number of Users came from DDO, Lemming's thread gave some a chance to download their old info, before DDO shut down.

Donald Davidson, Swampman,

Continuity,

What one 'was, 'came from,

Our admiration of forebears,

Love of family or friends, even should they change from who they were.

Creepy, some find it, if an adult raises, helps raise, or knew close a child,

Then marries that child when they're above 18.

Though some novels don't seem bothered by such.

And of course we are all dust, were once kids,

Had ugly moments in life,

Emphasis on what one 'came from, 'was,

Rather than what 'is,

Some would disparage,

And I'll not say they don't have a point.

. . .

But I'm unwilling to forget easy, 'everything that was.

As a babe in the peek a boo game, only aware of the moment.

Though,

Might be pick and choose, arbitrary my aesthetics.

What is it that people are sexually attracted to?

Just thinking on the thread,

Oh sure,

There's room to say some Christians hate lgbt,

Or the majority of Christians in this area or that time period, do or don't.

But,

We make general claims all the time,

Herbivores don't eat meat,

Swans are white,

Democrats/Republicans want this or that,

Not always true. . .

But people have a gist

. . . .

Hm, but anyway,

Just thinking back on an old debate of mine on DDO,

Sadly the Wayback Machine doesn't work on it,

Gladly, thanks to USBurning and DDO, I have a couple backups on flash drives, but I'm too lazy to get them.

The debate was Homosexual attraction is illogical.,

I was Con.

If one supposed that there were two people

One female, manly, old, wrinkled, dirty, covered in boils, warts,  lot of hair, body odor.

Another male, feminine,  young, smooth, clean, flawless, perfume.

I imagine a lot of guys would find the second person more attractive,

Course people can argue that the knowledge that the individuals being a man or a women, add psychological attraction or not,

Sure,

Or the other pieces of the body, which again, heterosexuals just have an attraction or aversion to in their partners, also true.

. . .

Do homosexuals like the characteristics of their own sex,

Or do they like their own sex?

Then again, I'd 'suppose that some gay men like manly, some feminine,

Some gay women like manly, some feminine.

. . .

Course then you have the transexuals saying people can be whatever they want,

Why not then just tell a homosexual that their female wife is a man?

Hm, that probably sounds offensive, but I don't mean it sarcastically,

But as my brain working logic out loud,

(I'm not saying my logic is right)

I could say 2+2=5 out loud, thinking my brain out loud,

Just means my brain made an error, in the case of the math.

. . .

Hm,

There's also the thought that couples can love each other, without being sexually attracted to each other, I'd think.  

. . . 

I suppose someone could argue why don't I just find men attractive with traits I like in women,

Well, big part is I like that identifier of woman,

If I saw a guy who looked like a hot woman,

I'd probably find them attractive, until I found out they weren't,

Maybe even think them attractive after finding out, but not intention of acting after the knowledge.

. . .

Never went anywhere with a ton of men and no women, that I recall,

Well, kind of Boy Scouts and Boot Camp, I suppose,

But I was a kid in Boy Scouts,

And there 'were women in Boot Camp.

I've heard people get laxed standards though,

At times during deployments, on ships, or in prisons,

I've heard a few times,

Stories about how much men hit on women during times of female drought,

Even when the women are a lower score out of 10, then what they'd usually hit on,

Because they are the only woman.

@NobodyInParticular

People often think it's bad to be schizophrenic, and not take one's antipsychotics,

Doesn't mean people hate individuals with schizophrenia.

I don't generally watch or read a regular News outlet,

I prefer casting a net on the Internet, after hearing about this or that.

If I did watch on the regular,

PBS is alright,

I don't think they make as much of a spectacle out of news,

Or lean 'too far one direction.

I remember it as a kid.

Of papers,

The Oregonian,

I live in Oregon,

Read it growing up, though usually the funnies/comics,

Wasn't too biased, that I remember.

@zedvictor4

Heh, Happy New Year.

If anyone were to actually start selling human meat,

Soylent Green seems like a strong contender for the name.

I suppose one could even grow their own cells meat in a lab,

Or eat their own cloned organs.

@NoONeInParticular

New Years resolution, exercise twice a day,

For 15 minutes each,

For one month.

Work on video game for 15 minutes each day,

For a month.

People don't always 'see the effect of their arguments on other people,

But it seems likely to me, effects often occur,

Even without the person saying it, confirming it,

Easy possible,

They looked at your sources,

Googled your claims,

Read Reddit this, Reddit that of the idea,

Thought, considered, pondered.

Just because they still disagree,

Doesn't mean one's words had no influence,

People don't always give agreeable feedback,

Don't always change instantly.

Though some people might not have considered or be swayed at all,

Well, I'm not psychic,

Though people responses can give weight to theories on their minds,

Well, I'm not psychic.

I wonder what the cheapest way to purchase and enjoy sweets, would be.

While I can understand where your interpretation is coming from,

I also understand where YouFound_Lxam's interpretation is coming from.

Either interpretation comes from the Bible though, I'd argue.

I think it weakens your argument to insult others though,

I'd argue such becomes more about comforting oneself, than convincing another or watchers.

It seems likely to me that many people choose their sexuality,

Though it seems feasible to me that some people might be harder wired than others, nature I mean,

If I choose to watch a bunch of (Insert Kink) erotic media,

Seems likely I might gain an attraction.

Habits in the brain,

Neurons light up through use,

Use it or lose it,

A river digs a channel.

A person gives into anger,

Anger becomes acquired,

A person gives into a kink,

Maybe a kink becomes acquired.

. . .

Certainly I think I 'choose my kinks, practically speaking,

By what I choose to view in the world.

. . ..

I'd agree that one 'does hear many people say they did not 'choose their sexuality,

And I'd agree it'd likely be difficult for a person hard set in their mold, to change.

But this doesn't mean they 'can't,

Some people give up certain addictions easier than other people,

Or cope better with mental disorders than other people,

(I'm not calling homosexuality a mental disorder

It's just that the example of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy comes to my mind easily,

Do to my own experiences working in a psych ward.

. . . .

If I had certain experiences in life,

I 'think I could be aroused by a man,

Might be I'm wrong, or less straight than I think,

But I think it's more my views on Nurture.

. . . .

I suppose to become gay,

Hm,

Spend time with another male, that I thought attractive,

Liked their personality,

In close lonely quarters,

Not have a complex about homosexuality being wrong (Which I'd argue is another example of nurture)

People can learn to like or tolerate other races, sexualities, cultures.

Watch and read a lot of gay media.

There's also the option of brute force,

Phineas Gage,

Tumor in brain,

Medication.

I suppose one could argue these are not 'authentic,

But if the choice is made, the self altered,

Well, just repeat the line above this one.

Also the brute force method creeps me out,

The idea of societies or governments altering people,

Reminds me of my nihilistic beliefs and fears, of what I think we are not.

. . .

Lots of boys and girls used to go ewww at the idea of kissing,

Though one could argue our bodies, minds, experiences were differently developed.

I read an account of a prostitute orangutan once,

I suppose one can argue some people are attracted to animals and others not,

But it 'sounded like it was regular enough in that village,

Nurture, I say again,

The effect of environment, culture.

One might argue that the Spartans had more homosexuals,

But I don't really know if that's 'true.

One could argue that some were heterosexuals, 'in homosexual relationships, against their nature and/or will, peer pressure and what,

But my point is that nature doesn't determine 'outcome by itself,

Nor do people always 'desire their nature,

Example of the easily addicted and drugs again.

Even if one is choosing what one wants,

Is it not still a choice?

Hm,

Or to put it another way,

I suppose you might mean sexual orientation,

In the same way as pain, hunger, arousal,

An involuntary reaction, reflex,

But pain tolerance can grow,

Hunger can be mitigated,

Arousal can be controlled.

Whether by mechanical means,

Or habituation.

. . .

I don't mean any of this as negative towards homosexuals,

I just disagree with the argument that sexuality is not alterable, generally speaking.

I'm not saying homosexuals should not be homosexual,

Or that it's a finger snap.

Depression, anger, happiness, kindness, are controllable,

But some people still find such difficult to control.

A difference of who you are, what you've experienced,

I'd say,

Though practically speaking,

One's will 'is exerted,

And in the direction one rolls, they might find themselves.

I'm an Atheist myself,

But were I different material,

Different experience,

Might be I'd be a Theist again.

There's smart people, who believe in God,

People who's experiences speak strongly to them.

(Shrug)

God 'not being, is true for Bones,

God being, is true for YouFound_Lxam.

@JustThinkingToMyself

Some people, no matter the methods tried by family,

Will still turn to drugs and crime,

Perhaps no method tried would have worked,

Still,

The family may desire to try.

I don't mean to say that homosexuality is drug or crime,

Just that people have different views of what is right and wrong,

But that people who try to increase what is right, decrease what is wrong,

Are not doing wrong, by their own values.

Though, sometimes they are,

If they violate other values of theirs, to attempt their correction,

Also,

They'd be doing wrong according to people of different values,

But eh, subjective humanity.

Being fat and out of shape is a choice, practically speaking,

Still not easy for everyone to go back and forth in their efforts to it, as they see fit.

@#130

Why not?

Some people are sick by the actions or cruelty or murder the first X times,

Come to love it.

I've never drank alcohol enough to love it,

But many others do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_luwak,

Some cultures like to eat bugs,

A starving man might appreciate maggot bread,

A survivalist or traveler, might come to appreciate new food sources.

@#108

Arguably it's an easier choice for some people than others,

Assuming that one's genetics and/or early upbringing set the mold.

Someone might be born with an inclination to be straight or gay,

If raised opposite of their inclination, easier choice for them, a new lifestyle, later in life, to choose their inclination, rather than upbringing.

Than a person born and raised in their inclination, to choose a lifestyle opposite of their inclination.

I'd think that,

Some actions are so divorced from an individuals genetics and/or mold,

That one would not expect one in 10,000 to take the action.

@Recent discussion

I think people are nature and nurture myself,

While I suppose one 'could nurture all the straight or gay out of a person,

One sure hears a lot about conversions not working on people.

Though I couldn't say if that's because,

Nature is stronger than people admit,

Want of reason to change,

Flawed methods,

Hardened mold of a grown individual,

Or flawed statistics.

Ban drugs, they often persist in society,

Ban kindness, meanness, crime. they often persist in society,

Send someone to rehab, their addiction often persists.

By that I don't mean to compare homosexuality to anything bad,

Just human inclinations and habits,

Be it gay or straight.

Fair point,

Maybe concentrate, would have been a better word for me to use.

Cannibalism seems like it'd be a large boon to armies.

@#5

States might become more one party or another,

But I don't think that's a bad thing,

Might be it's good for people to live by local laws they like, more than laws they don't like.

Maybe more small government, less big government,

But I don't think any state splitting from the united nation, is happening anytime soon.

I'm still thinking on your question,

About where I'd draw the line.

I don't have an interest in getting married, or declaring people to be my friend,

I expect I'll never marry, and only have one person I actually call my friend.

Though I don't know the future, might change my opinion on marriage someday,

And if I was more normal about friendship,

Maybe there ought be many people I ought call friend,

. . .

I get along friendly enough with you I think, though we've different cultures, nations, ideals,

oromagi's more Left than I,

Greyparrot's more Right than I,

YouFound_Lxam's more Religous than I,

zedvictor4 more Atheist,

Statichead more LGBT supporting than I am,

But I like them all, well enough.

If people are polite, friendly, not a danger to me or those I love,

I can get along well enough.

Though might be it's easier to be friendly online, than in person,

And easier in person, than online.

I suppose I'd find it harder to hang out with someone with a violent criminal history in person, than online,

Or someone who wanted to legalize marriage of an age I think too young for said union.

I would prefer not to.

People don't live and identify with their states as countries so much anymore, that I know of.

I suppose some states have a significant more of one party or another,

But states seem a mixed 'enough bag, to me.

Far cry from era right before and during American Civil War, seems to me,

I think Civil War fears of current situation, is excessive.

. . .

I'd rather people make their own laws to a degree,

As individuals, city, county, state,

But there's 'still values and actions I'd rather we 'not give people the right to act however they like.

So still a fair number of national laws.

Still I don't think people are going to isolate too much.

Some people do,

Mormons, Amish, Libertarian Free State Project.

Certainly it doesn't sound good,

If one values others,

To encourage in oneself or society, the desire of one's neighbors property,

Encourages theft, murder, action against.

Probably better for oneself and society as well,

A better conscience, if not a thief or a murderer, perhaps,

A better habit, not to commit crime, given how many people get caught in life.

And better that other's not be encouraged either, to steal or murder oneself, for one's own possessions.