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I should try to keep in mind that pundits are not objective news,
Seem to be so blasted many of them though.
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@Uragirimono
Thank you for the invitation, but I shall currently continue to refer to myself as Pro Life.
Statistics and sources 'are a huge weak point for me,
Not just regarding abortions, but for knowledge in general.
A coworker of mine liked to joke, no uterus, no opinion,
That's true in a way, false in another.
My 2nd brother's body is his own,
But when he is 'literally, I'll say it again, 'literally insane from meth use,
And highly addicted to it,
I 'deeply feel bad, that I do not break the law and try to get him sane and unaddicted off it,
Though it's likely he would hate me for it, and go back to meth anyway, still have values I disagree with.
. . .
I think it's too bad, that in Oregon we can't have him involuntarily admitted, until sane.
When a person is bullying another, or kicking a dog, beating their child,
It is not my body involved, just theirs,
But that's not true,
I receive sensory information of the seen,
My body 'is being effected.
And morally, a question is being offered.
The unfortunate part though, is that stepping into some situations, will only make it worse,
Though 'other situations can be stepped into, or stepped differently.
. . .
Earlier in a thread I mentioned Mencius,
He has an example about human nature, and a child in danger of falling into a well
"The reason why I say that all humans have hearts that are not unfeeling toward others is this. Suppose someone suddenly saw a child about to fall into a well: anyone in such a situation would have a feeling of alarm and compassion—not because one sought to get in good with the child’s parents, not because one wanted fame among one’s neighbors and friends, and not because one would dislike the sound of the child’s cries. From this we can see that if one is without the feeling of compassion, one is not human." - Mencius
I think he's wrong in his conclusions, there are alternate reasons one might act or not act, and even if not caring not acting, would still be human.
But that's semantics on my part.
. . .
What matters is the normative response for me, and people I tribe with,
To be expected 'is to be concerned, to help the child,
Even if the child complains they want to play by the well.
. . .
I'm pretty sure people can kill the unborn without the help of a doctor.
. . .
I do not mean the below as arguments that I am correct,
As I said earlier, statistics and sources are a 'Huge weak point for me in knowledge,
But I 'do mean them as an argument of why 'I am less than certain that Pro Choice is as Pro 'life as it claims.
"Defenders of late-term abortion frequently make the assertion that late-term abortions are “almost always” carried out in cases of severe fetal abnormality or danger to the mother’s life. In reality, the concept of “medical necessity” in the context of late-term abortion is misleading, and many late-term abortions are elective, frequently complicated by coercion, indecision and partner abandonment. In reporting on the results of a study of late-term abortions in 2013 (Foster, Kimport) in the journal Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, a publication of the pro-choice Guttmacher Institute, the authors acknowledge that “data suggests that most women seeking later terminations are not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment.” Using interviews and questionnaires, the authors compared 272 women who obtained abortions at or after 20 weeks with 169 women who had abortions prior to 20 weeks and found that the rationales cited by the two groups were essentially the same – stressful circumstances of unprepared pregnancy, single-motherhood, financial pressure, and relationship discord. The Foster-Kimport study excluded for comparison an unidentified number of women who had abortions for reasons of life endangerment or fetal anomaly, a significant limitation. In an April 2018 report for the Congressional Research Service, however, Dr. Foster is cited as believing “that abortions for fetal anomaly ‘make up a small minority of later abortion’ and that those for life endangerment are even harder to characterize.”
Again, not meant to convince you,
This is just a random website I clicked on.
I'm also paranoid about people lying and intentionally misrepresenting their side, not 'You,
But movements in general, also the media,
That it is difficult to 'have objective view of facts, situations.
Though I should also probably be paranoid about Pro life and Right people misrepresenting their side,
And I 'am,
It is a 'Huge problem,
I am a fair bit in low spirits, because the Right seems to have so few options expected to win, that I approve of.
Though I consider myself Independent,
I've either been drifting Right,
Or society and/or power been drifting Left,
Maybe both.
But I'd rather have a corrupt politician who advances my values,
Over a somewhat corrupt politician, who advances values opposed to my own.
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@Elliott
@#107
Sudden mass killers aren't 'always suicidal, but it seems they often are,
Though I speak of the common people mass killers, shooters, bombers and such.
Of mass killers on a national level. . .
. . .
I suppose great sorrow, betrayal, loss might lead one to such an action on a global scale,
Hitler for example and the Nero Decree - Wikipedia,
Though maybe drugs, mental illness, ego, delusion, might have had something to do with that specific case as well.
"It resulted in the deaths of 1.5 to 2 million people from 1975 to 1979, nearly a quarter of Cambodia's population in 1975 (c. 7.8 million)."
Not necessarily suicidal,
But look what can happen in some situations.
. . .
I'm not arguing 'for the destruction of all life on Earth (In this post)
But capability in technology and people 'do exist,
Though they might not be in the time and place to cause such, ever or yet.
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@Uragirimono
@#216
I 'did reply to your trapped question,
First in a reply where I had misread your meaning,
And thought you meant 'I would be trapped by logic, to no longer be Pro Life,
If I no longer thought an unborn was equal to a born.
The 2nd reply, in which I clarified I had misread your post,
But then stated 'even if a person pregnant felt trapped,
I'd be uncomfortable letting them terminate their unborn at certain stages.
If a mother was 10 minutes from birth, fully formed ready for birth unborn,
And she said nah, I suddenly don't want to,
.
I find myself unable to consider her right to choose, more important that the unborn's life.
If there was a high chance of the mother dying in the pregnancy,
Her right to choose would be more important to me than the unborn's life,
Though I'd still be uncomfortable killing the unborn, and rather the risk be taken,
I would see it as the mother's choice.
. . .
The further from full development an unborn get's,
Such as before it's brain forms,
I'd be willing to see it as the mother's choice,
Though I'd still be uncomfortable with the unborn being terminated.
. . .
Personally I think a large problem in this discussion, are the terms Pro Life and Pro Choice,
And I've said this before,
Many people are 'willing, though uncomfortable to compromise.
But I find myself unable to compromise with people who are 'too Pro Choice,
I'm 'also unable to compromise with people too Pro Life,
But I'm not being given the option to disagree with the extremes,
I'm only given the option to be Pro Life or Pro Choice.
There 'are situations where I'd be willing to accept that women get abortions,
There are situations I'd be unwilling to accept women get abortions.
@#253
I've been asked a similar question before by 3RU7AL in #265 Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows. (debateart.com),
I'm glad to be asked it again,
Not because I think my answer right,
But because it is valuable to let some time pass, then consider questions again.
I also avoided 'answering 'directly last time, I'll 'try more directly this time.
. . .
But no, I hesitate, before choosing the 8 year old, though I 'do choose the 8 year old.
Don't feel a need to read the below, just rambling.
. . .
There's 'something in the question,
Quantity vs Quality. 'Maybe.
Were there 2 adults, one severely mentally handicapped to the intelligence of a toddler,
Would I choose the adult more intelligent, more a person, or the adult more innocent, needing protection.
Were there a member of my family and 2 strangers, I'd choose my family.
Were there a friend and 2 strangers, I'd choose my friend.
Were there a friend and 1000 strangers, they'd have to be one heck of a close friend for me to choose my friend.
Of course these are more advanced humans than an embryo. . . Question of value. . .
I say earlier in this post, the further development get's to an embryo, the further I feel uncomfortable curtailing the mother's freedom of choice, to the point I'd step out of the question and leave it for others to decide,
Though the discomfort of destroying an embryo 'never truly leaves me.
Likewise the further development get's a newborn, the further I feel uncomfortable allowing the mother unlimited freedom of choice, to the point I am unwilling to let the law give her unlimited freedom of choice.
. . .
It's a painful question, the Trolley,
Hm, no, I don't think I managed to directly answer the question, if anything my indecision has 'grown over considering it and the value of human life.
Some might say I directly answered it by choosing the 8 year old, but they might not see my underlying thoughts and logic,
Conclusions I come to,
That it's best to 'avoid ever allowing trolley situations to occur in 'real life,
Though they are still valuable theoretical considerations.
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@Shila
No, that I'll get a headache.
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@TWS1405
@Shila
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@Shila
. . .
. . .
. . .
. . .
Sorry, I am unwilling to discuss this with you,
'Might be I just don't get it,
But I think that you don't get it,
And I'm not interested enough in convincing you, to continue trying to convince you.
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@Shila
@Uragirimono
It hinges on the perception of the unborn having human/person value,
People don't like it when parents kill their children.
If a person wanted to cut, tattoo, commit suicide,
I 'think I would not have the law stop them, 'Probably, depending on situation.
But because I value human freedom, safety from others, I am opposed to mother's aborting their unborn,
Well, I'm not even 'that opposed as I am not 'certain of my stance,
But I 'am against the more extreme Pro Choice arguments (As I see them)
I 'am aware that the mother's freedom loses out some, by preventing her from abortion,
But human freedom is frequently curtailed by circumstance and law.
Just because a law 'was for a long time, does not make it moral,
This is a 'simple concept Shila.
Morals of society change, as the people who make up that society change.
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@Uragirimono
Let's say a mother has a miscarriage, and the baby dies, and it needs to be removed.
Let's say that the baby will 100% kill itself and it's mother during birth if there is no abortion.
Just because someone who is against abortion allows exceptions to their rule of no abortions,
Does not make them 100% Pro Choice.
100% Pro Choice would be allowing the mother to terminate her unborn at any point for any reason, I'd think.
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@Uragirimono
But a person who chooses abortion is not 'only making a choice for themself,
From the perspective of Pro Life.
And it will be impossible for Pro Life individuals to believe that right is being done, if the Democrats get their way, (Their viewpoint)
It 'is a difficult situation.
There are people who are Pro Life, who are willing to accept exceptions,
Such doesn't make them Pro Choice, I think,
But perhaps it's a failure of tribalism,
Creating two viewpoints, that whirl about one another, black and white thinking, no room for concession,
Though admittedly people find moral concessions hard at times,
They 'dislike such I'd suppose,
One often only agrees to an evil because it is lesser, because one is unable to prevent it.
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'Because it's your job. We all have our jobs to do. My job is to unload these Zippo lighters at a profit if I can and pick up some cotton from Milo. Your job is to bomb the ammunition dumps at Bologna.'
"But I'm going to be killed at Bologna," Yossarian pleaded. "We're all going to be killed."
"Then you'll just have to be killed," replied ex-P.F.C. Wintergreen. "Why can't you be a fatalist about it the way I am? If I'm destined to upload these lighters at a profit and pick up some Egyptian cotton cheap from Milo, then that's what I'm going to do. And if you're destined to be killed over Bologna, then you're going to be killed, so you might just as well go out and die like a man. I hate to say this, Yossarian, but you're turning out to be a chronic complainer."
Clevinger agreed with ex-P.F.C. Wintergreen that it was Yossarian's job to get killed over Bologna and was livid with condemnation when Yossarian confessed that it was he who had moved the bomb line and caused the mission to be canceled.
"Why the hell not?" Yossarian snarled, arguing all the more vehemently because he suspected he was wrong. "Am I supposed to get my ass shot off because the colonel wants to be a general?"
"What about the men on the mainland?" Clevinger demanded with just as much emotion. "Are they supposed to get their asses shot off just because you don't want to go? Those men are entitled to air support!"
"But not necessarily by me. Look, they don't care who knocks out those ammunition dumps. The only reason we're going is because that bastard Cathcart volunteered us."
"Oh I know all that," Clevinger assured him, his gaunt face pale and his agitated eyes swimming in sincerity. "But the fact remains that those ammunition dumps are still standing. You know very well that I don't approve of Colonel Cathcart any more than you do." Clevinger paused for emphasis, his mouth quivering, and then beat his fist down softly against his sleeping bag. "But it's not for us to determine what targets must be destroyed or who's to destroy them or--"
"Or who gets killed doing it? And why?"
"Yes, even that. We have no right to question--"
"You're insane!"
"--no right to question--"
"Do you really mean that it's not my business how or why I get killed and that it is Colonel Cathcart's? Do you really mean that?"
"Yes, I do," Clevinger insisted, seeming unsure. "There are men entrusted with winning the war who are in a much better position than we are to decide what targets have to be bombed."
"We are talking about two different things," Yossarian answered with exaggerated weariness. "You are talking about the relationship of the Air Corps to the infantry, and I am talking about the relationship of me to Colonel Cathcart. You are talking about winning the war, and I am talking about winning the war and keeping alive."
"Exactly," Clevinger snapped smugly. "And which do you think is more important?"
"To whom?" Yossarian shot back. "Open your eyes, Clevinger. It doesn't make a damned bit of difference who wins the war to someone who's dead."
Clevinger sat for a moment as though he'd been slapped. "Congratulations!" he exclaimed bitterly, the thinnest milk-white line enclosing his lips tightly in a bloodless, squeezing ring. "I can't think of another attitude that could be dependent upon to give greater comfort to the enemy."
"The enemy," resorted Yossarian with weighted precision, "is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he's on, and that includes Colonel Cathcart. And don't you forget that, because the longer you remember it, the longer you might live."
- Catch 22 by Joseph Heller
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@Uragirimono
Ah, no, it seems I misunderstood you,
I thought you were saying that if it could be proved the unborn was not equal to a born,
Then I would by trapped by logic, and unable to hold my Pro Life view with consistency,
My bad in reading and responding perhaps.
. . .
Though in a 'new answer,
Even if someone felt trapped by a pregnancy,
I would be 'greatly morally bothered by them terminating the unborn,
I am 'highly influenced by my perceptions and values to see it as murder,
It seems a lesser evil to insist the child be carried and born.
(To 'my values)
The person 'would be trapped by the pregnancy though,
Well, only if kept trapped by people or conscience, I suppose.
Abortion relieves that trap I suppose,
Though some people are never freed of the guilt and shame of their action,
Depends on beliefs and values.
. . .
Because of my uncertainty,
I'm more inclined myself for people to move to states, where the laws reflect their personal values.
I'm also inclined for there to be gray areas in Pro Life/Choice,
Exceptions to rules exist,
Situations where one or the other is acceptable, I'd imagine.
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@Uragirimono
The chance not to trap another into life,
Was 'before choosing to have sex,
In my view.
I 'do agree you're right on,
If I do not believe an unborn baby equals a newborn I am trapped,
Though I don't view it as 'trapped,
So much as a prerequisite to changing my stance,
If I could be convinced that an unborn was completely lacking meaning, existence, humanity, personhood, soul, until it drew it's first breath outside the womb,
I would change my stance to Pro Choice.
Also, just using 'soul poetically.
. . .
“Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."
[To Hindu priests complaining to him about the prohibition of Sati religious funeral practice of burning widows alive on her husband’s funeral pyre.]
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@Shila
But the problem to my brain,
Is that they 'exist, 'maybe.
The argument that effects me 'most into the Pro Choice camp,
Is 'not the mother's freedom to do whatever she wants with her body,
I don't agree with that argument.
No, the argument that worries me,
Is the claim that the unborn is not human, nor a person, not valuable.
Of 'that, I am uncertain.
. . .
The unborn already 'exist,
Suppose someone 'never left the womb,
Grew old, intelligent, died of old age,
Just because they did not leave their mother's body, they did not exist?
I don't agree.
. . .
I also don't agree or care about the suffering,
It's too bad, but the unborn 'exists (I know I'm repeating that a lot)
Legality does not equal morality.
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@Uragirimono
Oh, I already came up with ridiculous scenarios in a different thread,
Though I still think they have value as thought experiments and viewpoints.
"If a teleporter malfunctioned,
And I was half transported into your body, that we share it,
It doesn't feel quite fair to me, that you should be able to kill me for that.
'Especially when in time, we can be separated."
Especially if you pressed the teleport button without my consent.
I agree with your definition of consent,
But there 'are situations where one's consent is no longer a factor.
That 'sounds bad,
And it 'is bad,
Though the question of when an unborn ought be valued bothers me more.
After all, the South did not want to consent to the slaves being free,
But you 'specifically mean bodily autonomy, I know, I know,
Just my nature for my mind to drift,
I don't mean what I say as irrefutable.
I wouldn't say there is a 'line of baby souls,
But in a sense one 'is giving permission to one not yet 'there,
Perhaps it is a unique situation,
Or perhaps one could compare it with putting up a sign on one's door,
All visitors welcome.
It 'is perhaps a tricky line, at what 'moment has a new human come into the world,
But for many people, an unborn fully developed, moments from birth, is no different from a newborn.
If I eat some spoiled food, do I not accept the risk of food poisoning,
Can I not choose to sleep right after eating food, and gain weight,
. . .
Don't have sex, use protections, get sterilized, are all options I would think.
We have an amount of control over our bodies, I'd argue.
I don't think that Pro Lifers think that it's 'good,
If one is pregnant with a child they did not want,
But the situation occurred, and some people place value on the unborn.
I think it's too bad that a mother who does not want her child is pregnant,
Responsible for another person,
But they got pregnant, and it is what it is,
There are situations where people's right to do whatever they want with their body, is removed.
Military is an example, people are expected to stay in shape, expected to not damage their body, not really 'easy to just up and leave either.
Hm, I've gotten to the cruel and calloused part,
I agree my stance 'is cruel and calloused,
But is abortion 'not cruel and calloused?
I'd rather 'not take the unborns life,
An unborns permanent death, to the mother's temporary problem,
Though arguably we all die, and pregnancy/birth effect the mother in permanent ways.
I don't think you hate babies or the unborn,
I think instead we hold different values to different degrees,
Also likely different perceptions of what is.
If they didn't exist, I wouldn't be bothered,
But they 'do exist, to my mind, even unborn, at 'some point,
Whether materially, or personhood, (Maybe on personhood)
The death of new human life is simply not something I want to encourage.
I'd agree that it's valuable to have choice in life,
It's something many of us want,
Work to have.
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@zedvictor4
@#190
Likely many people Pro Life and Pro Choice, would be willing to meet in the middle of some situations,
I am unsure how many extremists exist though, percentagewise,
Who refer to an unborn 'moments from birth as an unperson fetus, Choice,
or would refuse an abortion even when the unborn has already died and the mother is in danger, Life.
Well, even the supernatural I don't need to waffle and be confused,
I just need not 'know the truth, facts, values.
I'd agree humans are often contradictory in their actions, ideas.
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@Uragirimono
Fair point,
I'd agree that a parent caring for a born child is not 'exactly the same as a pregnant person giving the unborn life,
But I 'do think the two situations similar.
It 'is a problem that once one has an unborn in them,
The unborn is 'stuck to them, so to speak.
Not always 'so easy to abandon one's child safely,
Recall the China and Greece examples in #61.
In my view the way to avoid having responsibility, would be in not getting pregnant,
Though sometimes situations come to people despite their will.
. . .
Assuming they have the options,
People can choose how they work,
People can choose how to carry their pregnancy,
There are positive and negative ways.
. . .
Situations compared are not 100% the same, but they are similar,
Ogres are not 100% like onions, but they do have layers.
If One is working, exerting myself at work, One is breathing harder than they would have breathed 'not working,
Whether pregnancy or work, One's lungs work,
One's blood pumps,
Some jobs kill people, stress, fishing boats that sink, mines that bury, heavy loads that break backs.
Is One's body and soul 'not given to One's children?
Stress mental, physical.
. . .
Am I confusing autonomy with freedom?
Not a gotcha question,
I seem to be confused at your use of the word autonomy.
. . .
A parent has a duty to their children, in my view,
A mother to their child, born or unborn,
A 2 year old can survive separated from their mother, I'd agree,
While a fetus cannot.
I don't understand what that has to do with autonomy though?
Said fact might be 'why parents are 'able abandon their children to other people.
. . .
I would talk more, but I work in two hours, need to get some sleep, even a nap of two hours is something.
Tomorow then.
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@Swagnarok
Life is gambles, and we're all players, it seems.
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WWI people might ask if another World War is worth having for an allied Czechoslovakia.
Energy 'is a problem, but not only soldiers die in war,
Not that I think war is good or to be encouraged,
But there 'are reasons,
Moral, Strategic.
I would have put this in Greyparrot's thread, but I do not consider myself an edgelord.
. . .
I remember that I read, The Last of the Mohicans, as a child,
But I can't remember it,
Some women were kidnapped I think?
Also recall a movie version of it I saw as a kid once,
Only recall some line by a Native American about British men and their women.
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@Uragirimono
I'd say the answer is the same as why a child is entitled to care by their parent, if, for the sake of 'argument, you are agreeing to the theoretical of a fetus and a born person.
A person's body belongs to them, yet they must use that body to work and gain money, to change diapers, to buy clothing,
For their child,
Work can be dangerous, unpleasant.
. . .
It's not that Pro Life people don't value autonomy,
Sliding scale perhaps,
Influenced by other items people value.
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@TWS1405
I was talking 'specifically of an unborn, let's say ten minutes from a natural birth.
Though I'm aware you argue ability to live on their own, without being attached to the mother's body,
A baby hardly lives on their own,
The Greeks would abandon their babies and 'expect death,
Due to the fact they couldn't live on their own.
I disagree that referring to an unborn as a baby is an appeal to ignorance and emotion,
It is reference to one's child.
. . .
I am curious, Are you rude because,
Because you have lost interest in my opinion?
Because you think it will not effect my interest in this discussion?
Because you do not think you are being rude?
Other?
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@TWS1405
I don't see the difference of humanity, in an unborn and a born,
How does the time it takes for them to squeeze out of the mother, change their genetics?
Also still disagree that a newborn baby and an adult are both equal in regards to their personhood qualities, but that I'll leave aside.
It is common speech to refer to an unborn as a baby,
Did you feel the baby kick?
Did you feel the fetus kick?
One of these is a more common phrasing.
People are in disagreement of what the law ought be,
I disagree that an 'overwhelming majority say the unborn have 'no rights.
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@bmdrocks21
"So am I to believe that interracial organ transplants have many more complications than within-race transplants because of a socioeconomic concept?" - bmdrocks21 #88
That's a thing?
"Although organs are not matched by race and ethnicity, and people of different races frequently match one another, all individuals waiting for an organ transplant will have a better chance of receiving a transplant if there are large numbers of donors from their racial or ethnic background."
Huh, how about that,
Though I also think oromagi has a point on skin color not being race,
Though I don't think you were saying skin color is race,
Though I think it is 'related to race.
A 'really tan white person closely genetically related to some longstanding group of people,
Is 'still a person closely genetically related to some longstanding group of people,
Even if there's some pasty white person, from the same closely genetically related to some longstanding group of people.
And as such will have certain genetics more often, reason why hospitals still care about race.
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@sadolite
@Intelligence_06
Why assume that?
People at times post a reply immediate after the one they are replying to, without bothering to tag.
Out of curiosity is the lathe mill machine for wood, metal, both?
And have you made anything yet?
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@TWS1405
I disagree that a newborn baby and an adult are both equal in regards to their personhood qualities.
I am of the opinion that a yet born, can be called a baby.
I am of the opinion that the yet born, 'ought have legal rights.
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@TWS1405
@#75 of a different thread.
A human is not a monkey, I'd agree.
But the argument I was thinking on was personhood.
I would think,
That an educated, socialized, adult chimpanzee,
Has many qualities that a newborn baby does not have.
Advanced versions of,
Tool use, sign language, personality, intelligence.
. . .
I do not agree that a newborn human is the same as an adult human,
I don't think that's the point you were trying to make either,
. . .
If I was to sever my hand, it would not be a human,
It 'would be human,
A human's hand,
But it would not be a person,
Though it 'would be part of a person.
. . .
I am rambling, a bit incoherent, but you pinged me,
So I shall respond.
. . .
The below is not a 'got 'you question, I am only looking to understand your view by it, as I have not read but the beginning of this thread.
Is a baby not human before it leaves the mothers body?
I'm not talking about zygote or undeveloped fetus,
But a baby that is fully developed and let's say 10 minutes from birth,
Is it not human?
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@Uragirimono
Yes.
@##63
Reminding people of others humanity, rather than dehumanizing them, affirms reality,
I'd say.
Well, a 'version of reality, anyway.
@#7
Banning Roe v Wade seems to have hurt the Republicans politically I think?
Thus it was a moral based, rather than political based,
I'd think,
Since it was done based on what was believed 'right, than what would acquire power.
Just took a walk to the store, after post #64, thinking to myself on the way to and from.
Quality vs quantity.
Purple robe, Aurelius's Meditations.
Morally gray.
“He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.” - Friedrich Nietzsche.
Everything dissolves in the pot.
"He was getting close to mine." - Attributed to Abraham Lincoln
Honor above life.
Mencius, the well.
Is is not what is and ought but what is and will.
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@Uragirimono
In terms of everyday choices, I often worry I am an evil person,
But of course morality is probably a sliding scale,
Though on another hand I call myself a moral nihilist, but I can't seem to help framing existence into some set of morality.
I walk by homeless people without talking to them, getting to know them, asking if they're alright, If they need any help getting back on track in life.
I too was once a Christian, and to my mind a Christian ought not ignore people in need,
Ah, but such an ideal, an impossible expectation for most of us and our desires, values,
But it's 'not,
People 'could act in such a way, even materialists,
But I don't want to,
I think I only live once,
I want to enjoy life, live for me.
Though I don't kill, steal, or bully people,
I probably would be willing to do so, if I thought I could acquire enormous power from it,
If it was within my ability, likely to succeed,
No, I suspect I am a bad person,
Who lives his small life in a good way, because it's easy, advantageous, to my liking.
I like being nice, polite to people, camaraderie, 'bit of concern for others,
Though I don't enjoy crowds, or 'too much interaction with people.
. . .
I'd be willing to give up all my savings in the bank, if my second brother would go to rehab,
But wouldn't do that for a random person.
In some moments, I suspect I'd even sacrifice my life, to save another person,
But that's just expected reaction to a sudden situation right in my face, aggression against an antagonist,
But are the boats not 'everywhere, in every moment?
I drive myself to madness at times, thinking on it,
(Not really, but does bother me a little if I think about it)
. . .
'Ah,
I suppose that 'might be one of my reasons for disliking abortion,
It is an immediate situation one is placed in, often against their will,
A switch given, to remove pain to oneself, at the cost of another.
Depends I suppose, on whether on 'values a fetus X amount.
Does one value their child, their blood?
Though not everyone 'views a fetus as a human/person, so question itself, doesn't always apply.
. . .
. . .
I go to work, pay my taxes, ask my friends and family if they're allright,
Stay in regular contact with them, though I don't 'like talking 'so much,
Do things I don't want to help them,
Even strangers and coworkers, I help 'slightly, in 'small favors and tasks,
I don't think I'd harm or work against others interests usually, except for extreme profit, ('Maybe not even then)
But I'm not a proactive person, and there are many people I do not choose to help.
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@Uragirimono
It depends what you value,
Religions to my mind, are whats and oughts,
What existence is, our place in it, what we ought do,
Atheists 'still have whats and oughts,
There's even atheistic religions I'd say, such as Confucianism.
I vaguely value humans, is my reason.
I also ramble below weirdly in the rest of this post,
Don't feel a need to read the below, I just don't want to delete my thoughts.
. . .
I vaguely value individual human existence,
And to my thinking,
A zygote is a new human beginning,
I vaguely value people,
But human does and doesn't mean people,
Is a brain dead human a person?
Let's say the brain was removed, to remove any gray disagreement,
I don't believe in souls, though I use the term poetically at times,
If there's no brain, then there's no person,
'Still a human body,
And I 'do value humans,
But I 'might eat a human corpse, to survive a famine.
. . .
"Around week 5, your baby’s brain, spinal cord, and heart begin to develop. Your baby’s brain is part of the central nervous system, which also houses the spinal cord. There are three key components of a baby’s brain to consider. These include:
- Cerebrum: Thinking, remembering, and feeling occurs in this part of the brain.
- Cerebellum: This part of the brain is responsible for motor control, which allows the baby to move their arms and legs, among other things.
- Brain stem: Keeping the body alive is the primary role of the brain stem. This includes breathing, heartbeat, and blood pressure."
Is a dog more a 'person than a fetus though?
Well, a dog might be even more a person than a newborn,
Certainly the in the ancient world, infanticide existed,
"In Greek society, an infant's worth was measured by its potential to fulfill a useful function in society. Thus Plato, in his Republic, maintained that society was better served if deformed newborns were "hidden away, in some appropriate manner that must be kept secret," a practice that likely included infanticide (460). Similarly Aristotle wrote in Politics: "As to the exposure and rearing of children, let there be a law that no deformed child shall live."
Aristotle also condoned abandonment as a method of population control, although he recommended early abortion in regions where the "regular customs hinder any of those born being exposed" (1335b).
In Sparta, where military strength was highly valued, infanticide may have reached its zenith. In Life of Lycurgus, Plutarch gives an account of the Spartan custom: "But if it was ill born and deformed they sent it to … a chasm-like place at the foot of Mount Taygetus, in the conviction that the life of that which nature had not well-equipped at the very beginning for health and strength, was of no advantage, either to itself or to the state" (16)."
In the modern age, we have China's one child policy,
Though that's not to say such is legal,
Also their antiquity, but the antiquity example is throughout the world,
"From the beginning of the one-child policy, there were concerns that it would lead to an imbalance in the sex ratio. Early in the 1980s, senior officials became increasingly concerned with reports of abandonment and female infanticide by parents desperate for a son."
"Elders in China often reach retirement age without the necessary pension or funds for health care; making sons seem an investment toward retirement. This lead some families to abandon female babies in public spaces in the hopes that the baby would be adopted by another family. The abandoned babies would oftentimes die. Sometimes, the baby would be trafficked by orphanages and adopted to wealthy families abroad. In the US, nearly 3,000 Chinese children were adopted in 2012.
“It is a taboo topic for the Chinese government, which acknowledges the problem exists
but also does not make public statistics about the number of children kidnapped or the number of children sold into adoption. Because of the implications for the tens of thousands of families in the United States and elsewhere in the West who have adopted children from China the topic is often taboo outside of China’s borders, too.” (From The Atlantic)
As a result of the one-child policy and the tradition of male heirs, there is currently a national gender imbalance. In China, there are 30 million more men than women."
Though I'm not sure that 30 million more men 'matters much in such a huge population.
. . .
Returning to what I value,
I value humans,
I value people,
TWS1405 says elsewhere on this site,
"potentiality ≠ actuality" - TWS1405
But potential 'does equal actuality in a sense, to my mind,
An infant is not an adult,
Monkeys exist in actuality more 'persons than an infant,
Ah, and here my nihilism and absurdity rears it's head,
I find myself in difficulty with 'perfect logic, each step and justification shown,
But that's the horrible 'part of it,
I can't even justify 'myself, or other humans as much people as I am,
And my 'care fo-
Ach,
'Too absurd,
. . .
. . .
A zygote, a fetus, an infant,
Are they not all human?
Not all to develop in that direction?
Do I not value humans and people?
. . .
And yet so many exceptions exist.
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@Shila
I don't think your post #15 is in honest faith or positive intent,
It's also incorrect a number of ways,
So I don't feel like engaging in it.
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@TWS1405
If a group of people wanted to found a new nation,
I'd be okay with them making eugenics one of their principles,
'Depending on 'how the eugenics was implemented.
I wonder a bit if it'd be effective though,
Beauty being subjective,
Though one 'might be able to bring up 'near universal preferences, that they'd argue humanity would be better without.
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@Greyparrot
I like that one, sounds modest, and was often what people mistook my name for on DDO.
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@Greyparrot
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@ahiyah
@#100
I can understand it as well, when people commit acts we find outrageous, murderous desire wells up at times,
But it's not 'good to harm or kill people,
Even people who commit acts we find horrible, (From my point of view)
Well, as you say, maybe it 'is better to kill people, if they're going to 'keep committing horrible acts,
But I 'think rehabilitation is better, or permanent separation from main society, if possible.
Still, if they 'are to be killed, it's better that the justice system does so in an official execution,
It's not good for prisoners rehabilitation to ignore the law,
Not good for prisoners rehabilitation to commit murder,
Well, what little rehabilitation one could claim happens in prison.
There's also the problem of innocent people convicted, people in gray area convicted.
. . .
For example,
Theoretically if one of my family members raped or killed one of my other family members, even myself,
I don't 'think I'd want them tortured or killed,
So it's just an extension of that consideration, to people 'not my family.
Though again, theoretical, maybe if such an event occurred or enough time passed, and I changed
Might be I'd have different opinion.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Regardless of the death penalty,
Criminals in prison should not be the ones making that judgement or carrying out it's execution.
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@ahiyah
I agree and laud everything you said in post #87
except "treatment of pedophiles in prison is more than justified"
Though it's possible you meant them going to prison, being held accountable by the law with 'some type of correction.
Of which I'd agree.
But if you meant the torture and death they at times receive from other prisoners being justified, I'd disagree.
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@Shila
But they do have other rights.
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@Athias
I always thought myself, that was a bit late in a giving of points.
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@Best.Korea
I am associating adults who have sex children, as wolves, yes.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I'd say they're relevant with defining consent.
But then,
You and I don't agree on the definition of consent either, I seem to recall.
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@Best.Korea
We live in a society that advocates a guardianship, A trust, To be held for children, Until they gain some education, Some experience, Some physical maturity.
We do not cast them to wolves and the elements, To make as best they can in life.
Children come into this world without any knowledge, Understanding, Or property. It is right that there should be a period of instruction under the guidance and protection of guardians, Before they assume a role in the adult world.
. . .
You think a physical reaction of the body means consent?
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@Best.Korea
If I maintain that children are not capable of informed consent with an adult,
Then how will a pedophile who diddles a kid 'avoid violating the child's consent?
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@Best.Korea
"An informed consent can be said to have been given based upon a clear appreciation and understanding of the facts, Implications, And consequences of an action. Adequate informed consent is rooted in respecting a person's dignity. To give informed consent, The individual concerned must have adequate reasoning faculties and be in possession of all relevant facts. Impairments to reasoning and judgment that may prevent informed consent include basic intellectual or emotional immaturity, High levels of stress such as posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) or a severe intellectual disability, Severe mental disorder, Intoxication, Severe sleep deprivation, Alzheimer's disease, Or being in a coma. "
- Wikipedia Informed consent
"We don't take willingness to be sufficient for consent in other problematic scenarios, E. G. In minors, Very drunk adults, People with Stockholm Syndrome, Etc"
- reddit r askphilosophy comments 3dgitu why is bestiality wrong
"Consent has three necessary elements " understanding, Voluntariness, And permission. As students leading the USC consent carnival spelled out, Consent is affirmative, Coherent, Willing, Ongoing, And mutual " not just one but all of these criteria. "
- hopeferdowsian the meaning and importance of consent for people and animals
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@Best.Korea
"Cross-sectional research has found that adolescents who have engaged in sexual intercourse are more likely than adolescents who have not to be depressed and to have attempted suicide, and that early-initiating female adolescents are especially at risk (Haase et al., 2012; Hallfors et al., 2004; Madkour et al., 2010; Rector et al., 2003; Waller et al., 2006). Longitudinal research further clarifies this association, finding that sexual initiation is associated with within-person increases in levels of depression and anxiety for younger adolescents (Meier, 2007; Sabia & Rees, 2008; Tubman, Windle, & Windle, 1996). Additionally, early sexual initiation is more strongly associated with internalizing symptoms for girls than boys (Meier, 2007; Spriggs & Halpern, 2008; Madkour et al., 2010)."
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@Best.Korea
No,
The hypothetical child was trying to put the dirty stinking choking hazard of a toy in their mouth,
They were prevented from acting out their own will and body movement.
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@Best.Korea
Let's say a child wants to stick a choking hazard, such as a toy in their mouth,
Am I violating their 'rights by taking that toy away?
I'd say not,
What right?
The right to blindly endanger and harm oneself in an undeveloped lack of knowledge?
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@Best.Korea
Well, rights. . .
Short term inpatient health ward I worked in,
You have the right to be monitored for your own safety,
You don't not have the right not to be monitored.
Depends on phrasing.
. . .
Sure though, people in some situations might still think they have rights, intrinsic human rights,
But I'm a moral nihilist, though practical in life,
People all seem to have different ideas.
. .
I 'don't think children have the 'ability to consent to sex with an adult though,
As I don't think there's an equal understanding, footing, power,
I did an entire lengthy debate on it, on Debate.org,
Pity it's gone, the website.
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@Best.Korea
The most 'solid of rights, are those en'forced, by force.
Magna Carta, United States Declaration of Independence, Emancipation Proclamation.
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