Total posts: 8,185
Posted in:
Thinking about my wagon. Someone on it has to be opportunistic.
It can’t be Lunatic. As much as I hate his reasoning on me, I can’t conclude he’s scum in any way I could slice it. I’d have to believe he’d be faking so much of his reasoning and behavior- an unfathomable amount of it imo.
As for Casey… the thing that bothers me is whole thing about “Mharman’s not on Lunatic and I, that’s a good sign!” And it low key reads as a “not me, don’t read into me!” Type of statement. Almost like a warning to me and a subliminal message to town at the same time. There’s also the fact that she went after my claim, despite saying she townread me.
But to believe she’s scum, I’d have to deny everything else I complemented about her earlier that told me she was town (including her early DP interactions) and I’d have to think hated is fake. I can’t do it. She’s probably town.
As for Pie. I had an early townread on him, but I’m more or less neutral. There’s a few thing that bothers me. He said Barney was skating. Might be some truth to that, but up until now when he finally did stuff, I would’ve said that was a bit of a hypocritical point from him, given how little he did for most of this DP.
It also looks like he’s just copy pasting Lunatic’s logic on me, and I’m not a fan of it
As for that early townread, yeah, there’s still some merit to it at least… that early interaction with Casey and his question to Earth still looks good. Earth wouldn’t tell me anything about how a hated would work, so I can see why he’d ask Casey while being hesitant to say why. It’s a reasonable move
On Wylted: He is the most interesting player in this game from my POV. I was viewing him in a positive light after the Skipper thing, but hold on. I’ve seen a few people say he’s a little slower to jump or push on someone this game. I wouldn’t say that’s true in its entirety, but I can’t deny he feels a little less original in his thoughts on others. Like he’s playing the common narrative.
although- his points on Cerulean and Casey are unique, so maybe not. I wouldn’t say his points on rather of them are all that strong tho.
whiteflame… not currently on my wagon, but was… hm, maybe. But I’m okay with how he’s been playing this game. One thing I notice is the lack of fake contributions…. And I think a lot of what he was doing early in the DP sat well with me. Can’t say I have super strong town case for him, but whatevs. I will say that, on the flip side, one of the reasons I scumread him last game was because I felt the way he jumped on some wagons was opportunistic.
And then there’s Cerulean, who agrees with me that someone on my wagon is opportunistic. He places a lot of that blame on Lunatic though, and I’m not convinced. And if you ask Lunatic, he could be doing some meta play where he’s the one who gets to sit back and accuse others of being opportunistic, when he’s actually the one being opportunistic.
It’s an interesting theory, I suppose. The only real way to gauge it is by looking at who he’s been sussing. Lunatic nah, Whiteflame ok… there was an earlier sus on Wylted as well. Something about how Wylted either misread or ignored something. Can’t say there’s a whole lot of merit to that point specifically… I mean, maybe? Ehhhh meh.
there’s still my earlier thoughts on cerulean at play here. The townread, that is
Created:
Posted in:
I don’t think post #91 is completely fair to Skipper. I wouldn’t say it implicates Casey, but I think it’s real easy to get super aggro on noobs over nothing. I remember I used to defend noobs really hard, and gave them a lot of passes for a lot things, and was right a lot of the time.
I think Banana being scum last game when I have her a noob pass kinda messed with my reasoning in this game to the point where I sussed Skipper over something kinda insignificant.
Created:
Posted in:
I don’t know what I’m even accomplishing asking Skipper that question.
I was reading Skipper’s posts over and over again. could’ve sworn that I saw some scum slip and double triple and quadruple checked it
Skipper: I think me being so immediately open about my role is no longer a helpful tactic
Casey: You weren't really open about it at all. Literally the only thing I know about your role is that you are a boss, like everyone else apparently, and have a role which is helpful to the town. Cool.
Skipper: Oops, I hadn't meant to say "role." I meant side/team
I kept thinking, shouldn’t Skipper know that being open about one’s team is harmful to only scum? Is this is a slip? But in context, this came after he made that whole post about how “he’s town, and the people trying to cast doubts on him being town are mafia trying to be subtle about their accusations”… so is he, for whatever reason, thinking that him talking about being town wasn’t productive? That’s wasn’t anyone’s problem with his post (rather, the anyone who doubts him is mafia part) but I don’t know if he took it that way.
Then there’s the whole Discord chat thing. Wylted asks him if he’s in a Discord chat. Skipper doesn’t answer until Wylted tells him only scum is in a Discord chat. Than he says “no I can’t possibly be in one” and then “silly me for asking that question,” referring to his question of if there’s a scum chat in Discord.
So I thought, shouldn’t he know that there’s no town discord chat if he’s town? Shouldn’t it be obvious to him?
But then the counter-argument: What if Skipper interpreted Wylted’s question weirdly, like he thought Wylted was implying there’s a discord chat for townies that he should be in?
I think the key lies in how Skipper said he isn’t in a chat, “as of yet,” implying that he’d okay getting in one or that he’s expecting to be in one. That tells me he probably did misinterpret Wylted’s question in such a manner.
Noobs are weird. But I don’t know how I can push Skipper if I’m arguing from good faith.
Unvote
Honestly this paints Wylted in a better light for me as well.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Skipper_Sr
One question: Do you think it’s helpful for townie to be open about being town?
I know this sounds like a stupid question, but bear with me.
Created:
Posted in:
And there’s still the whole thing about “Earth doesn’t have my discord, wink wink”
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
Honestly the Casey interaction helps my point imo.
He made a weird post that was completely oblivious to how scummy it looked, as a response to me simply saying i wasn’t fully convinced therefore I am scum keeping things ambiguous with implications that I won’t say outright… ignoring the fact that he was doing the exact same ringing in his post. Then, when Casey called him out on it, he just dipped. To me, it looks more noob scum anything else
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Cerulean
Any push I make will look problematic to someone
.
I don’t care. I just gonna give my thoughts
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Cerulean
And I gave my reasons on Skipper. His noob town stuff looks fake.
Another thing worth noting is I get the feeling mafia spent a lot of time in the shadows, doing little to contribute to town because they want us to turn on each other… Skipper has been online plenty, but has given no thoughts or anything
Created:
Posted in:
I guess my closest guess for a teammate would be Wylted first, Pie second
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Cerulean
I don’t know who the exact scum team is. I’m thinking Skipper is one, and someone in connection with him
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
I gave plenty of arguments. Don’t even.
I’m not even playing anything. I’m just pointing out your logic and admittedly I’m also just disappointed that you didn’t think about some this shit.
But i am far from crying.
Go cool off.
I’m not even playing anything. I’m just pointing out your logic and admittedly I’m also just disappointed that you didn’t think about some this shit.
But i am far from crying.
Go cool off.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
Skipper is in my pool. I’ve been thinking his supposed town slips were a little strange since the start
As for Cerulean, we don’t even if know if what he has competes with what I have
I wouldn’t mind a Skipper push.
VTL Skipper
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
I was just trying to get the role out quick to get it over with, so town could move on.
Apologies
Apologies
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
I’ve explained everything else, but I wanna touch on this
suggesting wild busses would not be new for scum
I did not, at any point, suggest a wild bus was happening. I refuted a point about one that Lunatic made to Pie.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
Just spit out whatever you’re reading. Unless you really think it’s gonna do THAT much harm… there’s no reason to conceal your thoughts on someone, even if no one really agrees with it
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
I cannot remember to tag people today
Created:
Posted in:
1) Earth may not have given a fake claim, so you yoloed into saying the most absurd thing possible
Earth literally confirmed scum was given a fake claim…
2) Earth did give you the fake claim and you used it
At which point you’d have to believe JOAT doc, watch, and cop was a fake claim given to me
3) Your character and role is Bowser and JOAT but you are Mafia, and you guessed what roles town would/would not have.
and so I guessed town wouldn’t have three of the most common roles in the entire game? Lol
Created:
Posted in:
The skill and ability of the player also kind of goes with the WIFOM though. I am more likely to believe you are capable of high level wifom for example than a noob or someone who just doesn't do it often.
Also, bro…
This is just a justification for a fear-based ad hom on players you think are good.
gee, I wish I could say “youre a good player, so all your points are invalid because you could be a mastermind engaging in WIFOM” to hand waive away any points I don’t like. Would have saved me a lot of time refuting you
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
To play devils advocate a little bit, I will say my role PM mentions Bowser. I didn't want to read too much into that because if the mod did give that as a fake claim, i'd be shooting myself in the foot by placing too much stock into that, but in the context of what mharman claimed and what I am, I can see the justification making great sense.
So you saw a reason it could work and didn’t consider it, until now…
Bro.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
I can’t answer why backup isn’t a role. I will also state that you don’t know what the other town PRs are, or what scum has.
Anyway, I know I’m not lying.
As for Bowser: 1. We are clearly all bosses from the Original Paper Mario. This has long been established. Earth has stated there is a theme split and that mafia has been given a fake claim. I’m willing to think that Earth gave them a fake claim because what they have as is not easily spun as town. Specifically, their characters… I’m thinking Mario and Peach are the scum characters. Could also be party members Mario can add to his team in Paper Mario
Created:
Posted in:
WF’s vote on you struck me as opportunistic, but he did say he was going to explain the post right before this one.
I see some towny things in Whiteflame, personally.
Ya, I don’t like the justification, but Bowser should be in the game. Earth hasn’t revealed anything about fake claims either yet. What links Bowser to a JOAT?
Getting the Star Rod have Bowser a ton of new abilities, and became near invincible because of it. You are free to look up the plot of Paper Mario in the Super Mario Wiki. I think Casey linked it on page 2
I don’t understand this. How do link everything?
Can you be more specific about your confusion?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
So, what if someone other than me is arguing points about what I would or wouldn’t do as scum? Is that also pure dismissible WIFOM?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
I’ve said this before, but just saying WIFOM means so little.
The point about me having a partner is ok I guess, but Cerulean doesn’t strike me as that kind of player
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
post 239, all’s revealed between Cerulean and I here https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12026-paper-mario-mafia-chapter-1-dp1?page=8&post_number=239
Created:
Posted in:
Rereading again, just noticed I screwed up the wording of Q3 here
Q1. You have a role that is not exactly one of mine, but it is similar enough to CC. What does this mean?A: Mafia has probably has something that counters your role.Q2. Mafia probably has something that counters your role. What does this mean?A: If I'm scum I would see said role that counters your role.Q3. I probably have a role that counters yours if I'm scum. I can obviously see it. What does this mean?A: I wouldn't think anything that counters your role would be a safe fake claim, because I know my roles would be designed to counter something that I could be claiming, indicating there is a high risk of me being CCed.And what does that mean? It means my claims are legit.
Lemme correct that:
Q3: Lunatic, I probably have a role that counters your if I’m scum. I can obviously see it. What does that mean?
A: it means that I wouldn’t think any role that one of my scum roles would counter would be a safe claim; this is because I know my scum roles are designed to counter stuff that is in the game. Therefore, I’d obviously know any claim my scum roles counters would be crazy, because I’d know there’d be a high chance of me being CCed.
Created:
Posted in:
The pool is Skipper, Pie, Wylted, and Barney. I'll be thinking on them for an hour or two. I wouldn't surprised if I was wrong on someone in my town pool- that's in the back of my mind... Im gonna focus on the scum pool first
Created:
Posted in:
Even if I disagree with his points on me... his perspective isn't as crazy as Lunatic's
Created:
Posted in:
I still gotta give Cerulean a town read, for reasons I gave earlier. I'm gonna give Whiteflame a townread as well. His logic and points are sound, and it doesn't look like he's faking any contributions
Created:
Posted in:
I should clarify that by some of these things, I'm talking about Lunatic's reads on Skipper and Casey.
Created:
Posted in:
Second townie is Lunatic. I can see some of these things from a point of view, and the tunneling is just something he wouldn't do as scum. The CC wouldn't be either.
He can talk about how he's aggressive enough to claim miller, but I just don't see it. Maybe he is, but I still can't picture him doing what he's doing right now if he's scum.
Created:
Posted in:
Gonna reset my town reads and look for those to narrow a scum pool down.
First townie is Casey.
I just can't see the hated claim from her as scum, and I also appreciate how she's been taking her time to evaluate the arguments others around her are making. I like her interactions with me, Skipper, and Cerulean. I think she's asking a lot of good questions at least.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Cerulean
Your help would be great too. Almost forgot about you
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
Alr cool. Also, the Rs got the house? Also cool.
Alr, I'm getting to work.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Barney
I know you have a lot on your plate, but if you have any alternative lynch candidates, feel free to air them.
I completely understand if you don't have the time though. I'm shocked you even signed up, given how busy you are. It's noble and all to sign up to get the game, but please dedicate the time to your own life next time. Sorry for asking you to join btw. If i had known, I wouldn't have asked.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
I don’t love how he keeps characterizing the existence of a fake claim for scum. His assumption has been and remains that scum got a fake full claim. I haven’t seen confirmation of that anywhere, and his whole case about how he wouldn’t have claimed this if he had a fake claim available or how it throws sus at Casey stops making sense if scum only have a fake character claim available to them.
I haven't seen any mod give fake character claim only at any point. I guess there's a first time for everything. Keep in mind how stupid it would be for me to claim what I've claimed as a PR if I'm scum. As I've explained to Lunatic, you basically have to conclude my claim is from Earth, at which point that's bastard, at which point its simpler to say Earth is trying something new here.
Anyway, any other people you are sussing, other than me?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Skipper_Sr
Would like some input from you as well. Give your thoughts, your reads, whatever ideas you can muster.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
Also, can you get in on this thread? You've done almost nothing all DP.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
Ok, that took me hours. You want me to look for alternative lynches to myself? I'm down. Lemme sift through everyone else.
Could you do me a favor and also look for alternatives then? If you're gonna ask me, I'm gonna ask you. Can't do it all myself.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
Not so hard to believe if you are scum especially after we are finding out the earth tends to not give out tons of power roles in 2/3 games we have seen of his so far.
Well, there's a first time for everything. I will admit this is a decent point to anyone who doesn't have my POV. Doesn't negate my other points tho
You keep conveniently forgetting the part where most games don't balance in two of the same role, especially in an earth game. The CC should be alone to make people suspicious of you in most contexts, but in this context its even greater.
When I said this:
"The two quotes are just circular reasoning. I'm mafia, therefore I'm making a mistake in my claim. Because I'm making a mistake in my claim, it must be fake. Since my claim is fake, I must be mafia."
I was responding to these:
"Either way, CC's only happen when mafia make mistakes, and they tend to happen the most early on in games where not much role information has been distributed. The "What I would have done as mafia" argument, tends to carry much less wight this early in the game."
"or you simply screwed up the variation of the fake claim like I pointed out"
These points are independent of what specific roles are common or uncommon. They are essentially just saying, I am mafia, therefore I made a mistake, therefore I am mafia. You don't need to make these points, you could've just made those points that you just made about what is or isn't common in an Earth game...
Here is the segment of your post I drew these smaller quotes from:
"Most people would just dismiss this as WIFOM out of hand and ignore this argument. It IS wifom, but it's not a convincing argument, because of course you would sell me that as mafia you would do the less mafia type of thing lol. If you are fake claiming, it was probably a factor you took into account prior to deciding to fake claim what you did. Alternatively the fake claim could still be in play and be getting saved for your partner, in which case you used deductive reasoning based on not having a counter to one or two of those roles to assume that you had a safe chance in claiming it. Either way, CC's only happen when mafia make mistakes, and they tend to happen the most early on in games where not much role information has been distributed. The "What I would have done as mafia" argument, tends to carry much less wight this early in the game.
OR they are saving it for their partner, or you simply screwed up the variation of the fake claim like I pointed out. All of these have extremely easy explanations, yet you act as if there is only one right answer to any of these. And I still don't get how this implicates casey."
Neither of these mention Earth previous games, so I'm obviously not going to respond to them in a way that addresses Earth previous games. I don't know what you were expecting from me here.
I will note two things about this however:
1. This whole argument about WIFOM at the start of the larger paragraph is essentially just "You say you're not scum? Sounds like something scum would say! Oh? You say these are the reasons why you're not scum? Well, those reasons sound like something scum would say! Ohohoho, I got you good!"
This is why, as I've been saying, you can't just discredit arguments on the grounds of "muh WIFOM"... you don't even need to talk about WIFOM. Just refute the damn points that are being made, without the WIFOM talk.
2. The argument that I could be leaving a fake claim for a teammate or came with an alternate version of Earth's fake claim is incredibly stupid. If I'm feeling so much pressure, as Lunatic suggests, why not take the fake claim Earth already gave to mafia, and just use it, in its entirety? My teammate could come up with a fake claim for themselves later, and I could help them with that if need be. Regardless of any level of pressure I'm allegedly feeling, it just makes more sense to say I would be in greater need of Earth's fake claim than my teammate.
Of course, if Lunatic realized this, he'd have to concede that my claim would have to be the one Earth gave me if I am scum. At which point he'd have to conclude that either: 1. Earth gave mafia a bastard fake claim, or 2. that the only other player who has fullclaimed before me, Casey, would have used my fakeclaim... at which point he'd also have to conclude Earth included a bastard fakeclaim in his game, since Casey claimed hated...unless of course, he just wants to deny that these are bastard fake claims. I imagine he wouldn't, but who knows at this point.
Your literally repeating WIFOM over and over again and I've responded to this. Again making a mistake as mafia in an early dp1 setting with no role information revealed doesn't mean you are a bad player, it means you took a calculated risk that didn't pay off. I do it all the time as scum. If it works, people think you are a genius. Thats what gambling as mafia is. Big risk big reward. Nothing to do with stupidity IMO, unless your just constantly yoloing plays like this without your partners consent.
Ah yes, let's ignore Occam's razor and say I'm just taking some gigantic risk. What would I basing this risk on? What are the calculations in my alleged "calculated risk?"
I can guess one thing that you might be thinking:
Earlier you said I could be claiming like this because I didn't see anything in my scum PRs that would counter the roles I am claiming, therefore I erroneously thinking I had a safe fake claim. Ignoring the fact that it would still require a leap of faith on my part, there's one big problem: You claimed a role similar to what I have.
Let me walk you through this again, since you either missed or ignored it when I said it at the tail end of Post #263:
Q1. You have a role that is not exactly one of mine, but it is similar enough to CC. What does this mean?
A: Mafia has probably has something that counters your role.
Q2. Mafia probably has something that counters your role. What does this mean?
A: If I'm scum I would see said role that counters your role.
Q3. I probably have a role that counters yours if I'm scum. I can obviously see it. What does this mean?
A: I wouldn't think anything that counters your role would be a safe fake claim, because I know my roles would be designed to counter something that I could be claiming, indicating there is a high risk of me being CCed.
And what does that mean? It means my claims are legit.
Do you have any other reason I could be trying out such a master plan? Go ahead, BoP is on you. I've waded through plenty of bullshit... what's a little more gish gallop?
Oh and one final thing: If I'm mastermind enough to plan all of this out, why can't I be mastermind enough to see how stupid this would be of me to do, if I were scum?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
Well for one the whole initial post where you linked the ja rule diss to cerulean for simply pressuring you for activityI call this out 124, you respond by agreeing that you got too hype, but say you still have a case."And yeah, I was a little too hyped for the epic 1v1 lol… I should stop that shit and I see why Lunatic was put off by it, and yet, I still think I have somewhat of a case. Cerulean just doesn’t look right to me. At the very least, I’m gonna question some of the points in the defense"
And I stopped doing that, with an admission that it was dumb of me. So how much am I continuing the macho man behavior, really? Yes, I questioned some points in the defense, but I saw the defense held. So I backed off. That's hardly macho man behavior.
Then the nail in the coffin was your push on barney, who said right away in the signups to only use him as a back up because his time was limited."I know he’s not been super active, but cmon man. I feel like what he’s posted is underwhelming, even for what I would expect. Recently all he did was update some list… he can update that but not say anything more about what he’s seeing? Even with his claims about how he’s generally less active DP1 because of how his mind works, I see almost nothing."Barney feels like an easy target, and he responded exactly how I expected him to.
Or I just considered what Pie was saying about Barney skating. I knew he wasn't gonna be super active, but I felt it was lower than one would expect. I completely forgot about why Barney was inactive, and yeah, I can see why he'd be more inactive thana normal busy inactive, if he's helping someone with a court case.
Honestly I'm surprised he even signed up. I'd be spending my entire day on that case if I were Barney. This is why I backed off on him so quicky, which you conveniently aren't mentioning here. Is me backing off on Barney part of said macho man behavior?
Actually dismissing WIFOM as WIFOM is entirely valid. If you are scum here that all this whole thing is, is WIFOM isn't it? I WIFOM the sh1t out of people as scum. It's what you do. That said I outlined why the WIFOM should be specifically discredited, and you left that part out.
Really, what tiny meaningless point did I leave out?
Also, once again, you are starting with me being scum for more circular reasoning here. If I'm town, it's a legit reason I'm town. This is why dismissing points as WIFOM is bad. You have to establish why someone is scum first, and you have to actually successfully refute the defense. At this point in the conversation, WIFOM is just a buzzword fill in the gaps for shitty logic and hand waive away a defense. If you can't argue this without going on about "muh WIFOM," you will be stuck in circular reasoning, confirmation bias, and tunneling. It will all be in bad faith; you are approaching this argument in bad faith.
This is great insight into your head, and also proves whiteflames point a bit. You had a vote from me and whiteflame, and you proceeded to claim your ENTIRE role from it. Here you seem to acknowledge that you think this is high pressure. Interesting.
No, I'm trying to argue from your point of view. I could have waited till L-1, or I could have refused outright. Like I said, I don't want to waste town's time. Neat little strawman here.
I have already told you I don't remember this game, and I also told you earlier in this game that my most recent memories of your play come from games I've modded of yours, so I've really only been able to examine you from a town confirmed lens. All of this behavior and read I have on you feels like new behavior I haven't seen which is why I am scum reading you.
Not remembering Ace Attorney Mafia doesn't give you the grounds to pretend it doesn't exist. You should at least take note of how I did the same thing I did back there in this game, and it set you off to the point where you couldn't see reason, and how it's happening again here. The fighting spirit I got when I felt like I was being challenged by scum, and your tunnel vision.
e I said, I expect a more logical methodical mharman as town than the emotional wreck we are seeing now, who is twisting words, overreacting to pressure, and acting like being scum read is the end of the world.
Ah yes, I'm frustrated by your points on me. Therefore, emotional wreck. Lol. And where did I twist your words exactly? I just cited a neat little example of a strawman where you did just that. Can you give me your examples? And overreacting to pressure and pretending a scumread is the end of the world? I explained all of this already.
ut anyways if you made a mistake in fake claiming, it is most understandable to do so in dp1 early on before there are really any claims on the table. None of that is me saying you are bad or "trogolodyte level".
Is this why you are saying I'm twisting words? No, I'm just pointing out that the natural continuation of what you're saying would lead to you to have such a high level of distrust in my skill that it contradicts anything logical, especially if you've felt highly of my play beforehand. You've complimented my scum skill in the past, and you've been complementing me on a strong town game recently. You can't talk about "muh overconfidence," you have to think, "In what way would he be overconfident?" It wouldn't be in a scum game; it would be in a town game, considering that I just had an amazing town game that would make me confident in my town play, and town reads.
It would stand to reason that I would be overconfident in a bad read, but because I'm a good player I will recognize it and eventually abandon said bad read. I'm not perfect, so I will take some convincing. But because I am a good player, I am also not going to claim all three of the most common town roles. I don't care how overconfident you think I am. Overconfidence doesn't last forever. At some point, I will receive a reality check that tells me I'm not that guy. For me, that was when I realized how bad my case on Cerulean was. You seem to think I'm never gonna learn at any point in this game, which I think is ridiculous.
Here's a rhetorical question. You think I buckled under the pressure. Not really, but let's say I did. Wouldn't a good ol' reality check be the reason I claimed at all? Of course you'd say I'm scum either way- but that's exactly my point. Your case on me relies on contradictory pieces of information, to say that I am scum no matter what, because it is flat out wrong.
You say I'm playing up the macho man role to the point that I must feel immortal, but then you also say I'm feeling the pressure. Then you turn around again and discredit the idea that I wouldn't be humbled enough to know not to claim Watcher, Cop, Doctor JOAT as scum. Then, of course, I'm back to being good at the game and arguing my case, as Moozer wouldn't apparently do.
You can't have it both ways. Either I'm playing like garbage, or I'm not. I can accept you saying that I switched once because I do think I started off like trash and recognized that and got a little better in my play after my claims on Cerulean were disproven... but any more than that? Crazy. The idea that I'm constantly flip-flopping between good and bad play, being brave and feeling pressure, smart defenses and dumb claims... it requires all the mental gymnastics I'm seeing from you, logical fallacies included.
I said one or two because I know I am one of them, so for you to be scum an error had to be made insofar as you guessed or hoped that one of the three was safe.
LMFAOOOOOOOO what the fuck is this argument my guy?! Sure. I'm gonna claim three different roles hoping that one of them is safe. I'm totally not gonna be concerned about whether all three of them are safe; as scum, I'm only gonna do my due diligence on one of the three JOAT PRs I'm claiming, and completely neglect how dangerous the other two might be.
aint no way this is a real argument bruh
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
@Casey_Risk
Well, if you want a reason I am town, look at the fact that I was willing to back off on my push on Cerulean, and then flip to townreading him. I even gave an original reason, if it wasn't completely correct.
I'd also say to look at the fact that many people found it weird how Cerulean kept his vote on me and didn't say way. As illogical I was being, I didn't latch onto nothing. I took something that I was bothered by, and drew a terrible conclusion from it.
As for your point about scum not looking to debunk arguments against them, I can't agree with you, Wylted. Cerulean made some great points in his defense to me, and I backed off because I was following his logic.
That's the difference between Lunatic and I. When I make a bad push, I have the ability to stop and recognize it. Meanwhile, Lunatic's out here talking about all these things that could possible. Sure, I could be leaving a fake claim for a scum partner. Sure, I could be dumb enough to fake Doctor, Cop, and Watcher, all at once. Sure, I could be making more mistakes because I'm caught with my pants down. Sure, I could be playing up some macho man persona. Sure, I could be overconfident in a good town game to the point where I revert to a troglodyte in my play.
But none of those are likely.
I'm wording it like this as an appeal to you as well, Casey. You gave the same defense to me about Cerulean. I listened to you. Now listen to yourself. Do you honestly think what Lunatic is saying about me is likely, given all the ridiculous assumptions that have fall into place?
It's not like we haven't seen this tunneling out of confirmation bias from Lunatic before. Ace Attorney Mafia, yes, but also Mayday Mafia, where he even admits to doing it again. It's a pattern at this point.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
Judging others' logic is part of the game btw
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
I also don't like how he is expecting us to dismiss lunatic because lunatic made an error in axe attorney. Is there literally anyone who hasn't mislynched mharman at some point in this game? I am sure that logic applies to all of us
And that's why you should see the same mistake yall making, and avoid it.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
Well first of all I am denying the existence of confirmation bias entirely. I laid out my reasons for town reading caseys claim independent of scum reading you. At that point I still wanted to give you time to see if you were going to keep up the macho man bravado act, which I scum read. You did
What the hell are you reading as a macho man bravado act? Just me giving pushback? That's weak. I gave you an example of me doing something similar in a town game, and you're still here, thinking, "hmmmmmmmm he's acting the same as something that didn't strike me right, must be scum"... you unknowingly admit to having a confirmation bias here. So what would've happened if I completely flipped my behavior, whatever you think that looks like? At this rate, you'd probably say I'm flipping behavior to avoid to avoid looking scummy, and am therefore scum.
Most people would just dismiss this as WIFOM out of hand and ignore this argument.
Crying about muh WIFOM does not invalidate said argument. This is mafia, a game where town and mafia alike constantly make arguments about who's what, based on behavior, including arguments about what someone would or wouldn't do as scum. No one reasonable is gonna handwaive away an argument because WIFOM. If we all did, there'd be no arguments to have at all.
Alternatively the fake claim could still be in play and be getting saved for your partner, in which case you used deductive reasoning based on not having a counter to one or two of those roles to assume that you had a safe chance in claiming it.
Ah yes, I'm scum and under high pressure. I have a really good fake claim that Earth has given me and could use to get out of this situation, but nah, I'll let my scum partner use it instead. Then, let me claim cop, watcher, doctor all at once, because I have the room temp required to fake claim three of the most common town roles as mafia.
In Ace Attorney Mafia, you were tunneling me, and one of your arguments is that you have a lot of respect for my scum play. Here, you seem to think my scum play is troglodyte level. Which is it?
Notice how you said I figured one or two of the roles I claimed were safe. You haven't even brought yourself to say I'd think all three were safe! But I'm sure you can gaslight yourself into actually believing that sooner or later, based on what I've seen so far.
Either way, CC's only happen when mafia make mistakes, and they tend to happen the most early on in games where not much role information has been distributed. The "What I would have done as mafia" argument, tends to carry much less wight this early in the game.
or you simply screwed up the variation of the fake claim like I pointed out
The two quotes are just circular reasoning. I'm mafia, therefore I'm making a mistake in my claim. Because I'm making a mistake in my claim, it must be fake. Since my claim is fake, I must be mafia.
None of any recent revelation if a factor in why I town read casey as stated above.
Doesn't matter. You thinking her claim is legit should tell everyone reading this that there is no chance I'd be fakeclaiming like this as mafia, not under your logic.
You'd have to believe I'd make such an unbelievably stupid claim, that can't even come from paranoia because I'd be scum and have some knowledge. Which is probably why you're arguing I'm fakeclaiming based on my scum roles... 1. As of right now, you won't even say I'd think all three were safe (subject to change, wouldn't be surprised lmao) 2. This based on me already being scum, so more circular reasoning. 3. Your role should tell you that scum probably has roles to counter you, meaning that I would see those roles and know not claim what I've claimed, because my scum roles would be designed to counter something I would conclude is in the game.
Created:
Posted in:
I'm not even trying to appeal to Lunatic anymore. I'm just trying to show yall how terrible his logic is.
Created: