Mikal

Point out specifically how I have been not consistent and not logical. I responded to Casey in depth about why I moved them to town, so I’m not going to go back over that 

And If you mean my read on earth. The only argument people are bringing up against that read is that earth just acts this way normally. Pie even agrees the behavior is scummy as shit but is giving a pass atm because it is earth. 

As for you, I’ve conceded it’s a gut  feeling off the initial post multiple times. I still think it seems like you were buying town cred. I have to read through what casey posted about it being meta later. Maybe it’s NAI but it still reads me as weird. 

Really a large majority of anything related to me or my reads about her is still just omgus. I have to defend myself, I’m sad. Moozer defended me, he is town. Mafia would not touch this read very likely because I’m the only one scum reading you. I am doubling down because I think I am right. The people who have changed my mind, I moved. WF after the reaction test and his response to being asked to town read and Casey after they started participating the more they posted the more town it felt. 

—-

As for Austin’s entry, I’m happy to leave him as null. If his claim is real, his role is confirmable. The role is not affiliation confirmation but we can use him as a hammer and have him target the lynch target so I can leave this here for now. 

Wylted actually forcing a claim out of him comes off as towny. Austin asked for an update and wylted basically lied. I’m guessing to try and force a slip.  Well not hard lied he did have some sus but I’m not sure if enough to full claim but I get what he was attempting with that. 

I’ll read this back with that in mind. For what it’s worth. I think that’s a dumb meta lol. 

Okay I may regret this but I feel like it’s important. I’m a classic show. 

If that also helps while I’m curious about his claim. Add that to his behavior it may help you see why I’m “tunneling” 

I think it’s not mutually exclusive. It can be meta to do that. I don’t know what kind of meta that is but even if it’s meta scum can do it for town cred. 

Just like a goon can claim miller and risk a cc. But if he gets away with it he has cred for following meta.  If you are saying it’s some hard game rule where to move a game forward, you come up with a theory and you have to support the theory by leading, then sure I can admit that’s not AI and lessens the claim I have

I am struggling to believe that I guess. That seems like a wild meta? Not that I don’t believe you but I feel like some portions of that are missing context 

It’s the same issue I have with earth partially where we said don’t claim yet till we hear more and he’s just like “blah blah blah”. Scum tend to do that shit go farm cred and that’s how her post hit me. If someone else will verify that’s some strict town meta, I’ll go back and re read it all again with that in mind but everything in my gut is pointing a finger at her as a good Poe target. 

I can see this but I guess when he was worried about it being swingy and I saw the prizes I assumed he had meant swingy for town.  The extra vote thing isn’t that great so I have been assuming natural second cop for a night 

Define your case for Anna. Sorry phone is aids and most of the time im Posting on memory. 

Percentage you think he is actually town?

Wasn’t that you were not showing up. It’s when you showed up and it was right after I started mentioning you and yes if 8/11 people are going and it’s been most of the day. You try to find ways to address people that aren’t playing for a variety of reasons. More likely to slip. Less time to think what they post. And under pressure someone being geninue is usually easier to spot. 

No I had not said it directly but I also had not made another list or posted hard reads about everyone other than the hard scum reads. It’s more of a mental note. But if I was trying to set you up for a soft Mislynch, I was trying to set 4 other people up. But I’ve explained this process in what I consider depth already about that Poe. Did I say I actively say my thoughts no.  But didn’t really say much about whiteflame other than I liked one of his posts and how he was posting. I sat on you for a while debating if you just started trying because you got pressured or because of genuine effort. That post is where I solidly landed on town block. I was already appreciating the effort but it was the first post I was like. Okay I don’t think scum would put this much effort into thinking about Ana’s thoughts. But I was already watching behavior prior to that and debating if scum would try that hard. 

Do you think there is no cop? I remember talking to Luna about this before sign ups and he said he had to rebalance for 11 and that he felt like the Trivia could make the game swingy.  I guess I’m assuming there is a cop and the other cop is just an extra cop lol. Never considered that was the only way to cop tbh. 

Ive acknowledged Ana is a gut check. Prop do things you can shake and past seeming like she was intentionally farming town cred there is not much else. But it really really really seems like she was trying to farm town cred. 

That and the omgus recently giving a little more credence to that. 

Sometimes you get a read that is just more of a feeling and everything in my gut says that post was her trying to posture to look good. 

Also I agree that the theme analysis is void. It’s why I’m not pressuring him on that and throwing it into the additive part of the read. 

It’s mostly behavior with the other parts adding back end validity. It’s just like the more that points to bullshit the more I think it’s bullshit. 

Why are you so sure his behavior is town? Or not scum ?

Can you at least fully admit if a normal person is playing like that. It’s highly indicative of scum. 

Which also makes me think he is scum even more because he can’t even explain why I’m scum Redding him. I literally would rather get kicked in the nuts than keep explaining it over and over. 

Also the part about “easy mislynches”

I feel like you guys are on nuts. 

1) Ana is not an easy mislynch. I’m the only one scum reading her 

2) sure earth may be an “easy” mislynch but I stand by his behavior is anti town and I don’t fully buy his claim 

3) Casey - at the time I am not even sure if Casey was an “easy” mislynch. Again was the only one scum reading him because of the weird timing of when he started actually playing the game 

4) inactives- this is the best case for an easy Mislynch but you tell me how to deal with people that are not playing other than pressure or just killing them.  Having Luna replace is like the other alternative. But yeah someone not typing for an entire day phase is Defacto a detriment and if you read my ddo games or have played with me online. I have vigged people for that for giggles 

It’s why earth is irking me. He’s not trying to read my arguments. 

Yes my character makes me question his character as town. 

You are saying scummy behavior is his town meta. I am not sure what to say to say that. I have not played with him in ages but disagree with letting scummy behavior slide because that’s just how he is. Anyone can abuse that 

Actually I’m good with Austin claiming at this point. That or replace. I am not sure how else to deal with that issue atm beside intense pressure the second he types. 

Perfect timing

1) why Austin and Moozer were above you in the pressure list. I did answer this 

At the time I think you jumping in when pressured was suspicious but not as much of a priority as inactives. I know I said this in a post. Earth has been and still is my top read along with Ana (which at this point, I admit is weak and a gut feeling)  it was word you responded within 8 mins or something of me pushing you loosely. But as you notated, it’s possible you just has got home. I notated that but said it was less of an issue than earth Anna or inactives. I’m in bed on my phone so can’t find the post. But I know I said this or at least outlined it. 

2) that post is where I locked you in as town. Much the same as whiteflame when I moved him to town. when someone actively starts engaging in the game and seems like they are genuinely scum hunting. That is a town tell. You were exhibiting all that before but that post is where it felt the best.  I had not did a hard read list prior to that since the last one where I was still Questioning you a bit. 

3) I can’t see what you are linking atm cus on phone. If I was asked somrthing about earth by pie I probably missed it because I was typing up the iso on earth before I laid down. If the question is why can’t he be tracked or watched. I mentioned this. As scum why would he kill? Could he kill and do something stupid yes. But he has a a very niche claim and they could set him up to ride the game out if there is roles that alter investigations. A lot of people are scum reading him or were so it seems likely he would be the target and mafia know that. Could that change based on if mafia are targeted/die/ he has to kill yes. But offering up a fake claim when we asked him to wait for the inactives seems off to me. That is something I would do as scum to bait. That is also why I said verifiabikity is additive to the behavior 

You can think pie and I are theater. That’s fair but know. Between him and earth not reading a fucking thing I’m posting I genuinely want to punch myself in the dick. 

Bro go iso me. I literally have said it so much and typed it over and over that I’m not doing it again. Ffs. 

I literally don’t know else to type it out anymore than I have already. 

Just have a super low tolerance with both you and okie going 

This is super weak cus blah blah unverifiable when I’ve said over and over the lack of verifiable information was the last portion of it all and was more of a liability point. Go read the game ffs 

Fyi going to sleep and have work tomorrow. Was waiting to see what Casey said because I actually think there will at least be a coherent semblance of a reason that I could speak to or address but if I see another post like the one above. I’m going to revert to being a dickhead because I have a low threshold for people that don’t bother to put in effort. 

Bro if you actually read anything I posted it clearly outlines why your behavior is scummy. I have no idea what your meta is, but your behavior is in fact scummy. For every reason I have listed above. 

Don’t know how else to say the non confirmable nature and convenience of the claim is additive. 

Between you and Anna wifoming and wylted just saying fuck the site. I am remembering why I stayed doing mafia in other places. 

Dear fuck people don’t bother to read. 

Waiting until Moozer posted could adjust if we want his claim. We had no idea what Moozer or Austin would post. Still don’t know about Austin. Maybe they come out the gate scummy as shit. It’s best to see given we still had like 2 days in the dp at that point.  As I said getting a full claim early is needed but we had time to see what they would do first. 

I am not sure if it’s a fake claim. I’m saying my character leads me to think things about the game so I think survivor could be a safe claim even without it being given by Luna . But the first person pressured would likely use a fake claim so it’s possible. 

I just think there are a lot of outs and I don’t really care about the character and justification in the moment until we see more from other people later on. I care about how he has acted and you can spit shit into your blue in the face and say that is meta earth behavior. You were on him early for his behavior but because you are comparing your character to his you think you are having some grand epiphany. I’m telling you, my character makes me question it. We don’t know enough to give a shit about theme or characters atm. Behavior is way more important. 

Again you are doing IIOA. Stop getting bogged down on role and character justifications especially when portions of it could be fake claimed. 

The role analysis and obscurity part is additive. That is the only thing you are going on about and it’s the least important part. 

Bro it's additive. Why do you lynch a miller?

that plus below. I was going to try to ISO everyone, but  I don't think I have the brainpower to do it after today. But I wanted to frame my points on earth at least coherently and not on a phone. 

did give some summaries (above this now) that I can expand on if needed but I think based on previous reads, you can follow the logic. 

I wanted to get the post about earth out. 

Town Block 

Savant 

Casey (I will elaborate on this more if needed. I was initially stuck on the perfect timing of when they started engaging and considered it scummy but since then, they feel like they are genuinely scum hunting. Post that made me move them to the town block was this https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12687/posts/516325. This was a very good analysis. I still disagree with it but referencing another game and considering how ana is getting to a read on earth is very well thought out and I am not sure scum would put this much thought into a read. At least a read that is considering how someone else is arriving at a read. This can be feigned but reads very towny to me 

WF - When he started engaging (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12687/posts/515992) - Here and when I pressured him into a lynch list. It seems thoughtful. Not sure if the initial non committal shit was AI but when pressured he was willing to break on some reads and give some insight. I am okay with leaning town on him for now. 

Pie - I actually like that pie is questioning me. He is wrong in how he is framing my argument but based on what he is typing, the logic to question me makes sense. He is just leaving out portions of it. Hopefully not intentionally and from misunderstanding. But challenging it when there could be a lynch on earth reads me as town. Not being around has made a super solid read harder but this recent exchange feels good. I will see more later as he continues

Null 

Moozer - I just saw his post and missed this before. (someone that has played with him before. what is his meta. The post seems like it's to get heat off him for being inactive, he even says that). But he did put thought into reads, not sure how thoughtful or active he is as town or scum

Austin - Totally Null 

Wylted - Moving Wylted to null. Wylteds entire game has been pressure inactives and say he has lost interest in the site so he's forcing himself to contribute. Maybe it's true but also a good way to coast

Mharm - as mentioned I struggle with this fucker cus he bounces around and questions his reads constantly. I want to Iso him but am tired and don't have the brain cells to do it today after earth. 

Scum

earth - have been into this

ana - same reasons plus now frustration and omgus 

At least frame my argument right. I'm saying behaviorally he seems off, and the claim seems convenient. The portion about not being confirmable is a liability argument on the backend of the behavior. 

Clarifying, I am not saying it's definitively  scum. I'm saying it's convenient. Just like WFS claim seemed off and was convenient last game, this one seems really similar as the first claim. My biggest problem with him is early game behavior and how defensive he got. Add that in to the portion about him stating that role had been in another game recently and trying to justify the claim. It reads me wrong. 

Not ATM but I played there a lot in the past. Along with Epic Mafia 

215 - may be where he starts "engaging" if you want to call it that or being defensive. 

You and I may just have a different definition of progressing the game. Casey is progressing the game, you are progressing the game, pie when he is around is progressing the game, I am progressing the game. Typing things in response to things just to type something (even if it is a light challenge or addressing a point), is not really progressing the game or really contributing in a way to gauge meaningful info from. After those pots from light pressure, and he is getting annoyed. That to me is when he starts participating. Again, likely because he felt pressure. 

He has heat. Let's say they lawyer him, or he is a Godfather. What way do you catch him if they don't have him kill. If we accept his claim at face value, and he is scum. He can absolutely ride this to the end. All I am saying with is IIOA is not the way you address him. Does the role make sense with the character, absolutely. If there is a fake claim or fake role involved in this, it skews the game. It is not AI in any circumstance and is a reasonably safe claim with very little counter play to catch if he is lying. That is not saying we have to lynch him or he is scum, but that this is a perfect claim to just do nothing the entire game and be safe. Especially if a good scum player came up with it or at least a portion of it. 

I’m turning on the computer just to info dump. Impossible to do it on the phone and just got home. This will be a long post. So afk for a bit until I do post because I’m going to iso a lot of people. 

Information instead of analysis. 

Typically is a scum tell for when they try and fluff 

I have not seen Luna do recent games but I’m working on him with a game for solo leveling and I can tell you with certainty, it’s not an easy split to figure out. 

I understand the logic, don’t fully agree with it yet but that’s based on my character. Maybe I’m wrong and I’ll adjust this later as more comes out but there are so many tv shows, this is one game that you probably could easily get away with claiming some random shit 

The role bothers me more than the character. The only redeeming factor about earth at all is it makes sense with the show 

His play is scummy, the role is scummy, and I’m not fully sure if the show is a fake claim or not. Typically i stay away from IIOA. Always better to use info as a supplement off of behavior imo 

Correction not posting a lot is not AI but could be AI. If that makes sense. 

It’s not a scum tell. I’m saying , you said I have not altered my read or adjusted it based on responses you have given. I’m saying there has not been enough responses to alter the initial read yet. 

You’ve explained why you said you did it. I just don’t buy it yet. That’s fine for now. At least pending Austin and Moozer because they are far more pressing issues. 

But you and earth are the two that just read wrong to me atm and yes your read is largely based off that one post and me not being able to shake it feels like you were farming town cred. 

I’m going off past experiences with earth but he’s been playing mafia since at least 5 years ago and his reads and behavior are largely the same. I don’t know how to say it tactfully but I think a lack of experience or growth in play is typically when someone will slip.

Tbf I don’t know much about Ana but from last game and this game she seems levels headed?  (Outside of the random Omgus that’s happening right now) Maybe I’m wrong on this. But just initial impressions and seeing the same earth I saw 5 years ago or so leads me to believe he will prob fuck up under pressure. 

Tbf you have posted very little since then.  I’m not obligated to change a read on you and yes I have locked in on that specific point because of when it happened and how opportunistic it was. I know your reasoning for why you said you did it, also does not mean I believe you 

Suggesting a path for town to take and then immediately must doing it without getting feedback about the thought really pings me as farming cred. 

It’s very hard to shake that. Not saying that will not change. Just nothing you have did this far has made me change that 

I’ve moved the needle with whiteflame so I will move it when I see things that warrant it. 

But because I’m reading you as scum, you are going full omgus and that is semi sussy as well on top of the prior read. 

Issue I have with this is that if you are being pressured and don’t want to claim your actual character or role. Going for something out of left field usually is what sticks out. It’s very obscure and you sure as hell are not worried about a cc 

Could have used a fake claim but I really doubt it. I don’t think Luna gives that shitty of a fake claim. I’ve seen him do claims for 10 years and they are very hard to pick out as fake. 

Character could be a fake claim , and maybe he came up with the role? It’s weird he immediately pointed out this has been used recently. Almost like trying to justify it being a good claim. Kinda feels like maybe mafia or him looked up roles from previous games. 

Maybe he made up both. God knows what shows are in this game based on this split. I have thoughts based on my character and his does stick out a bit comparatively . But I have not seen others to compare and can validate that thought as the game progresses. 

The main problem is like I mentioned above. If there are cop altering roles. God father, lawyer, bus driver, redirector, whatever all the possible roles are. That he is not confirmable. Nothing we do will validate him. He can’t be tracked. Can’t be watched. Can’t have that role last game where a pm Is given to someone. As scum, dude can just sit there until he needs to kill and coast. 

Doesn’t mean he is scum but just pointing out the issue with that claim. It’s so obscure and it was given as the first claim of the game 

Past the role or character. His behavior is just inherently scummy. I really really wana iso him 

It’s not going after people that are easy mislynches. It’s that people on that list I either read as scummy or they are not active. Everyone is town reading you, how would you be an easy mislynch? I think I’m the only one scum reading you 

Earth I’ve explained in detail 

And if not pressure or kill the inactives, how do you deal with them. Mentioned replacement at some point if they still aren’t here but just letting someone not post and sit there is just a free pass for someone to slip through to end game and be put in a situation when there are no reads or posts to look back on. You have nothing to base reads on at that point other than any Poe that exists. 

Going to be honest. I didn’t read the large text part part at the start of the dp fully until way later. I had to read back through some of it when he mentioned trivia. Have not been at my computer a lot, just phone.  I’m not sure if it’s a slip just that I was explaining my thoughts on odds and balance. 

Scum reads * earth and ana 

Man this is a tough one. I still want Moozer to say something and give reads but this claim is rough. Lots of factors that contribute to it being strange. The hardest part like I mentioned is if mafia has a way to change guilty results. Behavior wise I really read him as scum or just total newb. But earth has been playing mafia for years 

The way he came into the game, didn’t post a read till pressure, posted fluff, got angry when we questioned his claim. It’s just all strange. 

The way he’s played the game is going to always have him in the lynch Poe just because of scummy behavior. If he’s town, mafia has no reason to kill him.  They will keep him as a mislynch. Which is also why this claim is so deadly. If hes always alive everyday and he’s scum, we expect him to be alive because why would mafia kill him early. We potentially cant trust results. 

For me my top 4 targets are still 

Earth 

Ana

Moozer 

And Austin 

Earth for all the above, and he is almost functioning as a fucked up miller at this point. Which typically always needs to die

Ana - just for my gut read and I still think she was trying to farm town cred 

Moozer - inactivity and this could change if he has value to add or I get a town read 

Austin - activity 

Basically my suck reads I’m ok with are earth and Ana 

Unless we want to just yolo an inactive if they don’t contribute. Which Tbf I don’t know another way to deal With them outside of Luna replacing or just hoping they show up. 

Still not home but glancing through things. My fear with that claim is if there is a godfather in the game, or a lawyer, that claim is almost full proof. You could latch a lawyer onto it perma or he could just be go godfather and if an innocent result comes back. He’s basically hard cleared for the entire game. 

I didn’t mean the show was obscure. I meant the role was obscure. Still want to go back and read through his posts but he’s got very annoyed and confrontational at being questioned about the claim. Not sure if that is normal for him. 

we are going to have to rely fully on behavior with him. 

I’m not tunneling. You were the best target by POE. Let me sit on that and re read when I get home later.  That is one good ass scum claim but Luna has used this before. 

Could be town. Justification makes sense 

Could be the fake claim 

Also could be someone who has played mafia a lot made it. 

Obscure enough to not risk a cc. 

Going to read your posts again in a bit and figure out if I buy this. 

To clarify I still think earth is the best choice to pressure. It took pressure to get any type of read of from him and he actively was around and posting fluff before that. Town or scum, he will be hard to figure out late game 

That behavior is scum sided though 

If he’s town, he plays in a way that is anti town most of the time. I think that’s why pie was trying to force reads from him because it’s extremely difficult to do anything based on how he posts 

If he’s scum and we don’t address it, he just coasts 

So he’s exhibited anti town behavior and locking him into a claim only benefits us. If he’s town, since we can’t gauge behavior based on his okay style. We may be able to verify night actions which will confirm him or if he’s scum, he’s more likely to slip. 

I agree with this, it’s why I said I want to see him post first. My point is the non committal nature of not wanting a claim reads town but I’ve also played enough to see the end point of this. We are at the last few hours from the day phase ending and we have to pick a lynch. 

We get them to l-1 and they say. Don’t I’m a cop, a doc, tracker blah blah and they have a role and character that makes sense. That or we decide to lynch austin when if we pressured someone else, it may have gave us better options. 

Now we have limited time to evaluate if it’s a fake claim, if we want to go through with it , and we are going into the night phase (so if it is the truth) mafia now know the role either way. Where as if we do it earlier, there is more time to analyze and Poe from that claim. 

The last 4 posts from Mharm are why I cannot read him. It gives some insight to his thought process but I feel that it’s kind of all over the place. And he will post a read then back off it after re reading. It’s like the more he reads over the game, his reads continue to change after reading the same thing he read before. He did this as town last game and have no idea if he does it as scum. It’s very hard to nail him down to consistent thoughts. 

You not wanting to force a claim is the only critique I have of your play at the moment. Again as mentioned we are going to have a claim come out because we have to lynch. 

Doing that late late in the dp advantages mafia and we also have less time to evaluate if we want to go through with the lynch based on the claim and what it provides. 

I feel like we have a solid short list and the more info we have early. The better we can narrow down Poe for a well thought out lynch at the end of the dp. I think as soon as moozer posts. We evaluate and force a full claim from that short list. 

Does this make sense or am I phrasing it properly ?

I want to read through Mharms posts again later. He still reads me as null because I am struggling to understand the intentions of his reads. 

If he is scum, I’d say there is probably a 90 percent chance a second scum is between moozer, Austin, or earth. 

I still think we get a claim today from this list 

Mharm 

Earth 

Austin 

Moozer 

With earth still being my top choice. 

Why are you putting Austin at the bottom of your prio list? Near or with people you are town reading ?