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@Speedrace
@Elminster
Hm... well, what were you doing Speed? (If you're like me, you always have Discord open even if you're not active. It's just a habit at this point for me to open discord upon turning on my computer.)
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@Elminster
Wait so what happened? Speed typed in Discord and you could see it? But how would you see him typing if he were in a mafia server?
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@Elminster
Ooo... Might play it, we'll see. I'll wait for the reviews to start rolling in
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@Elminster
Cyberpunk is out? I heard a lot about it. What's it even about?
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@Vader
lol. You miss a lot of detail when you pop in DP3 and have to try and catch up on everything and also contribute or else you get lynched
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@drafterman
I didn't see that comment from Speed, but in retrospect that seems obvious
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@drafterman
How did we know there would be a real COP? There's been so many games where we assume some role must be present but they aren't. Lunatic likes to try interesting combinations of unique roles, I see no reason for COP being a mandatory presence instead of some other powerful investigative role.
Although admittedly with another investigative role, they probably would've spoken up as it doesn't make sense for town to have 2 OP investigative roles, so your point stands firm. I would've rather had that laid out to me instead of just saying I was crazy to even question it though.
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@drafterman
Right, but you have to ask yourself why you needed that information? Was it information for the sake of having information or would it have tangibly help Town's chance of winning?
I genuinely think it would've helped. We lucked out that Ragnar wasn't a mafia rolecop manipulating us
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@drafterman
Oh fr? What did it say when he investigated me DP3?
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@drafterman
@Speedrace
Fair enough. I shouldn't have asked for full claim, that was dumb. I stand by wanting that character claim through Drafter tho.
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@Lunatic
Yeah fair enough, just didn't work out for me tho. Probably also contributed to my lynching. People didn't have much behavior to go off of, so the little I had said/questioned was enough to get me lynched even without Drafter revealing Ragnar got a guilty on me.
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@ILikePie5
maybe not, but still. I'll be honest I anticipated a much slower game for the first couple of days, so it caught me off guard when we blazed through 2 DP's in a day in a half. It kept me from being able to engage properly until late game.
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I should've tried to attract mafia kill DP1 but was too busy to do so, sorry folks. I feel kinda bad for not using my role well
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I have to ask, upon what is this lynched based on, if not me simply being the only person sane enough to question things and not take them on face value. If that's a scumread then lynch me and lose
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Noted, I should've tried to attract NK in the first few DPs. Unfortunately my absence due to IRL events forced me to forfeit that possibility.
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If I'm voted out town will lose this game.
I am going to go ahead and full claim:
I am General William “Billy” Starkey.
Quote: ‘Things fall apart. The center does not hold.’ A man named Yeats said that. I didn't understand that poem in college, Len. But I… must be getting smarter in my old age, because I understand it now. And one other line from that poem: "What rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"
I am the Oracle. Each night I can choose to visit someone unless roleblocked. If I am nightkilled, then the last person I visited has their full role shared with town. If I am lynched, this does not happen.
My justification is that when a virus outbreak occurred, I was ultimately responsible for not being able to contain it. I try to cover it up, but eventually I am so consumed with guilt I kill myself and am found with a sign saying "Guilty" around my neck. Since I exposed the truth in death, I am the Oracle.
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@Danielle
Yeah you're probs scum. "The COP needs to reveal himself and give a full claim" says you. And why exactly would that be if drafterman is giving us the results and protecting cop's identity? Cop can out next DP if need be. You basically just ghosted the whole game and then asked the cop to out themselves for no reason
Well, not “no reason.” If we got the wrong guy the game would’ve been over, and we wouldn’t be able to do your suggestion of “outing next DP if need be.” It was a serious possibility this unknown COP person was scum, and Drafterman wasn’t doing a very good job easing my fears. Additionally, note that I amended my request to them outing their character through Drafterman instead of doing it directly, because I realized that the criticism was correct and a full claim would be too risky. Now that it turns out Whiteflame was lying (which made no sense for him to do btw. Why would he lie about being a role that would result in instantly ending the game if revealed? Bad move imo), I trust this COP fellow more. A character claim would still be good but it’s whatever at this point… they hit the mark twice so they’re obviously a pro-town force. I'll take their word for it at this point.
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@Lunatic
Man. this game is flying by too quick. Haven't got a chance to really get involved even though maybe it's my own fault for assuming we would use all 3 days of each day phase.
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@whiteflame
ah so my suspicion on Danielle was well-placed although very unevidenced...
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@Danielle
Apparently he knows all mafia, but can't reveal that directly or the mafia would know his identity.
"You are the SEER. You know who all the Mafia are. However, when the last Mafia member is killed, they will be given the option of guessing who the SEER is/was. If they guess correctly, the Mafia wins. When you die, you will appear as a Vanilla."
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@drafterman
@whiteflame
True dat. Whiteflame, what were the mafia?
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Anyway, VOTE WHITEFLAME.
As Speed says, doesn't matter much at this point unless he's lying.
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Yikes. That's not good. If Whiteflame is outed as Seer town loses no matter what. Whiteflame should've kept it to himself and kept arguing against his lynch... but that probably wouldn't have done it much good. At least we know I was right to suspect the COP.
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@drafterman
How would that make it certain? Wf claims the results were manipulated. If you don't believe me, you won't believe the cop.We have to vote today, so it's me or whiteflame
How would it not introduce an extra level of security? Have you even asked for a character claim from this cop or are you taking everything they say on face value?
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@Speedrace
OK. But you miss my point, why not have an extra layer of certainty?
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@Speedrace
Well I agree it's less likely than him telling the truth (and might not be Drafter, could be another scum member. And the real cop could just not exist for all we know). I just want extra security. Why not make certain?
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@Speedrace
Ah, but we don't know his affiliation. Could be mafia role cop, as I detailed here:
Like Danielle points out, for the mafia to kill Pie they would have to have a role cop and know that Pie is more than a simple Miller. Since we know Elminster could not joint win with mafia, maybe the mafia team’s role cop (i.e. the “cop” Drafter says is in his chat) investigated Elminster and revealed his role, allowing the mafia team with Drafter to fake confirm him and also get rid of the TP.
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@whiteflame
I agree, claim. Then we can press for the COP to give his character claim through Drafter.
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@drafterman
Fair point I suppose, but I would like all the security possible... Can he at least give his character claim through you?
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@Danielle
BTW if you look back into the games I played during the summer where I had all the time in the world, I was very active... Guess I need to figure out how to stay active on these games with school because other people seem to manage.
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@drafterman
As you said, it's lylo. All cards on the table. If they have nothing to hide, why wouldn't they comply?
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@Danielle
I'm shocked Lunatic invited MisterChris to play in this game. He seems like a cool person and all but literally in every single game I've played with him (maybe like 5 now?) he was inactive like 95% of the time.
Yeah this is pretty accurate. If you can't tell most of my activity is popping into a thread on the forums, dropping a post and then vanishing. I can do that with the 10 minute breaks we get every once in a while during the school days, but otherwise I'm restricted to whenever school is out when I am most likely eating or doing homework. School has absolutely screwed my ability to stay tuned into long complicated threads like these, but I promise when I get time I am a good player.
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Yooooo I totally missed that new COP read on Whiteflame.... not sure what to think. If we mislynch this DP are we screwed?
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THE STAND MAFIA DP3:
Graveyard:
Greyparrot- Trashcan man- Bomb- Town
That1user- Tom Cullen- Soldier- Town
Warren42- Glenn Bateman- 1x Friendly Neighbor- Town
Elminster- Harold Lauder- 1x Executioner (Third party, can not joint win)
iLikePie5- Larry Underwood - “developmental JOAT. You gain abilities of increasing use throughout the progression of the game. NP1: Miller. NP2: 1x tracker NP3: 1x watcher NP4: 1x vigilante.”
Living Players:
Supadudz
Danielle
Misterchris
Whiteflame
Speedrace
Drafterman
Ragnar
Obviously with the TP dead, we know that we are dealing with 3 scum.
Anyway, note that I will have missed out on a lot of details as I am just now tuning in and have skimmed the last few DPs, so please correct me on any inaccuracies and fill me in on some of the lore of the past few days.
BTW, have to apologize for my absence. School has been brutal the past couple days, and my Mom's bday was today so was celebrating that with the fam.
SUPADUDZ:
Null-scum read but that doesn’t mean much because I missed out on a lot of the context behind the argument between Drafter and Elminster. I roughly agree with the consensus that he is being a bit erratic and aggressive. That said, I do agree with some of his criticisms of Drafter. Drafter’s tunneling was pretty unwarranted up until he revealed that he had a cop’s say-so in Elminster’s guilt, which pretty much puts me at a crossroads. I feel like if Drafter is scum, Supa is innocent and vice versa, as with Drafter being scum I could easily see Danielle being a scummate or maybe Ragnar.
DRAFTERMAN:
Leaning null atm but I have my suspicions. Like Danielle points out, for the mafia to kill Pie they would have to have a role cop and know that Pie is more than a simple Miller. Since we know Elminster could not joint win with mafia, maybe the mafia team’s role cop (i.e. the “cop” Drafter says is in his chat) investigated Elminster and revealed his role, allowing the mafia team with Drafter to fake confirm him and also get rid of the TP.
SPEEDRACE:
My strongest town read, mostly because:
- Warren’s PM paints him as the doggy companion of his own character, who is town-aligned.
- Night phases have been going quickly. As Lunatic likes to point out, a Speed scum team usually entails long night phases.
- Speed has been fairly reserved about throwing around accusations from what I can tell.
DANIELLE:
I feel like she was a bit too sure about Pie not being scum, and I am shocked she didn’t get onto Drafter for pushing a conceptually bad lynch (up until he claimed he had a cop’s report, the lynch had no real grounding in evidence). Danielle-Drafter team? Then again there’s the fact she was leaning no-lynch up until Drafter actually gave concrete evidence. Overall null.
RAGNAR:
Pretty null, not much to go on here.
WHITEFLAME:
Playing pretty lowkey. Like, he posts, but nothing that makes waves. He does push for a no lynch for a while in DP2, so that’s something. Haven’t seen Whiteflame as scum, so gotta go null on him.
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Am busy tonight. Will give some extended thoughts tomorrow
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@thett3
True that. I don't support the government regulating speech for that reason. Within the context of site moderation though, we have to draw a line somewhere...
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@seldiora
Nah, I called him a dick because he declared my sources of TedX and a neuroscientist as too elementary for a FORUM DISCUSSION. And used that as a way to dismiss me entirely and avoid engaging in the actual discussion at hand.
He didn't "destroy" my viewpoint
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@thett3
That's exactly my problem with the write-up. It's based on speech that has horrid implications if drawn to its logical conclusion, yes, but those conclusions were never posited by MgtowDemon directly.
Maybe the worst thing he did on that front is say African Americans are genetically inferior to white people.
Genetic components such as lower I.Q [1][2], poor delayed gratification propensity [3], presence of the 'warrior gene' [4] etc. create this gene differential between African American and White populations, and thus one group, on average, becomes more "disadvantaged".To put it extremely bluntly: being African American is an inherent disadvantage -- "disadvantaged status" is heritable.
Not sure if I would ban on that alone even though it is blatantly racist, simply because he has enough evidence to where it is something more than simple rabid hate speech... there are some undertones of intellectual discussion there.
In fact, if he were a guy that was mostly respectful, he probably wouldn't be banned right now. What pushed it over the edge for me is his constant pattern of toxicity.
I believe DART mods reserve the right to ban users that are a constant toxic force on the site, even if they may dodge some of the more extreme CoC violations (i.e. users who are objectively unbearable to nearly everyone on the site, and consistently lower the quality of site user experience. In the end, this website is a service, and if someone is making your service unenjoyable for everyone, that person can be booted justifiably.) This right is given here in the CoC: "The moderators retain the authority to interpret and apply all policies in the best interests of the site and users therein."
Anyway, Mgtow fits that bill all too well.
Here is what I said on the matter on Discord:
"There comes a point to where you no longer need extensive justification. MgtowDemon is objectively an insufferable asshat (you can measure this by seeing how he has zero positive interactions with anyone in the DART community other than toxic members who are already treading the line of being banned themselves) who literally no one enjoys talking to and consistently lowers the quality of experience that users have on the site. At least RatMan had his moments of friendliness. I genuinely haven't heard anything come out of his mouth that wasn't condescending or offensive."
Not to mention his tendency to violate the following in the CoC:
- "Creating threads to call-out specific users qualifies as targeted harassment, as does obsessive attempts to derail unrelated topics with impertinent grudges."
- "Unwarranted systemic vulgarity and invectives, which may include off topic personal attacks and/or hate speech, are subject to disciplinary actions."
He had a habit of creating call out threads targeting many users at once, and he would often inject threads with his "impertinent grudges." Note that systemic vulgarity includes off topic personal attacks, which he would inject in just about every post he made. While he wouldn't use slurs, the frequency of his systemic attacks on people rose the violation to the same level of severity.
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@thett3
admittedly I didn't like the write-up either. I supported his ban, and while his "hate speech" was a factor, it was less of a factor than others.
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Greetings all! Took a mafia break but I'm back now. I know nothing about this theme so bear with me
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@EtrnlVw
I suppose if we adopted that standard, you'd be right that all topics have burdens for the affirmative and negative, it's just that those burdens vary depending on that topic.
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@EtrnlVw
Hmmm, I suppose I misunderstood what you said initially. If we expand the definition of BoP to "providing a reason for your position" then even saying "I see no evidence of this, PRO/CON must prove that there is evidence of it" is a reason and all topics carry an element of shared BoP.
Not sure if I agree with it, I'll need to think on that. It's an interesting idea
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