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@Umbrellacorp
I think he’s an interesting and complicated figure. I was first introduced to him when he appeared on Gavin Newsom’s podcast and he seemed really well-informed, smart, and a real person in general. I disagree with virtually all of his conclusions but I respect his methods, and that’s what’s more important to me. Then I went over to his YouTube channel and I saw a very different person. His titles and thumbnails are all extremely click-bait-y and he’s clearly manipulating the algorithm to hook young people who don’t know any better, and it pains me to see our soon to be voting generation growing up thinking this is the political norm for America.
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I’ve been a fan from the beginning. Season one will go down in the history books as an all time classic, I can’t wait to show it to my future kids. Season two wobbled a bit but wasn’t horrible, I’m praying for a better season three though. I am hopeful since Dan Erickson has revealed he has the whole plot mapped out already, so it won’t end up being like Lost. If anyone wants a more in-depth look, Adam Scott and Ben Stiller have a podcast where they talk about all the episodes, highly recommend, though you might want to listen on 1.5x speed.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Okay, this got a little out of hand. For starters, you need to clarify what you mean by "immune person". If you mean someone that can actually never get the COVID virus, then they don't exist. If you mean someone who is less likely to get it, then they do exist, and getting a vaccine makes you more "immune".
Also this...
Your ignorance is clear, what is not clear is this: Why do you think you or any other ignorant person should be making assertions about these they don't understand?
...Is exactly my argument, just said in your own words. I am not making assertions, I am finding experts and listening to their assertions.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Suppose you take a cell sample from the lungs of an immune person. You put it in a petri dish with a drop of solution containing X number of active viruses.What will happen?
There is no such thing as an immune person. How many times am I going to have to say that? If they truly are immune, then nothing will happen, but an immune person is never going to exist when it comes to COVID. Once again, this is all in my non-expert opinion.
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@yachilviveyachali
What made you think your symptoms were going to be worse? You had covid and said it was mild. What was the vaccine going to do?
Decrease my likelihood of getting the virus. It failed at that for me, but it succeeded for many other people, and we know that because we have the data to prove it.
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@yachilviveyachali
Yet, you say you have had it three times. What is going on here?Do you continue to have the vaccination?
I'm an outlier in the data. Vaccines are not 100% effective and I never claimed that they are. I am one data point, but when taken together with thousands of others, we see a clear trend emerge, the COVID vaccine makes it less likely for you to get the virus.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Are you claiming that there is an improvement to immunity by taking a vaccine after you are already immune?
You cannot be completely immune to COVID
Everyone who is immune contracts viruses again and again. Their immunity may or may not destroy the virus so quickly they do not feel symptoms and/or do not spread the virus to anyone else.
I cannot figure out what you’re trying to say here. If someone is immune, by definition they cannot get the virus again. Do you mean to say that after people get the vaccine they can still get the virus? Because that is true, but vaccines do still make it less likely for you to get the virus, and more likely for you to have less symptoms if you do.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
What is the reason to take a vaccine if you are already immune?
You cannot be completely immune to a virus. Vaccines decrease the risk of you getting it and having by worse symptoms.
If you refuse to learn the basics then I am and always will be an expert in comparison to you.
I took high school bio. If I can’t understand any statistics or evidence you put before me, then I guess I really am just stupid, or you don’t have the evidence.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
What does this evidence you speak of have to say about the difference between natural immunity and vaccine immunity?
The reason we have vaccines is to gain immunity in safe ways. Getting the actual virus is dangerous for your health, and can be fatal. Vaccines have much lower death and symptom rates. To use an analogy, if I wanted to take a self defense class, I would want the instructor to demonstrate everything slowly and use boxing gloves rather than actually mug me using brass knuckles. Both give me experience defending myself, but one is much more preferable.
This is basic biology. Do you understand basic biology?
I'm not an expert. Can you show me one who supports your claim, or can you provide data and statistics?
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@yachilviveyachali
I see everything as data. Data is information and all things are information. It is data that youth were not dying from covid-19, data that some became very ill after being vaccinated, data that the scientists were getting involved in matters of no concern to them, data that Fauci was funding coronaviruses in canines and bats...All data that you do not want to hear.
I’d love to see that. Frankly I’m surprised I haven’t heard of any of that until now.
It is very unlikely. You say you wanted to be protected...from what? Prior to the vaccine, you had it twice and it was mild. It makes no difference to your grandparents; it does not stop transmission.
The COVID vaccine has been proven to reduce the risk of me getting the virus. If I don’t have it, I can’t spread it.
Ok
Agree to disagree then
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Yes you can be too careful.When you are violating people's liberty for no good reason, using 'caution' as an excuse, that is too careful.
I never said I supported government vaccine mandates. If I’m a restraint owner and I want everyone in my restaurant to be vaccinated, that’s another story. I have the right to kick them out for not getting it. I just said that for myself personally, I got the vaccine because I believed in its efficacy and I wanted to be able to go out in public without a mask anymore. I really hope other people get it for their own health, but they’re allowed not to.
If you believe the vaccine saved you from a third infection that is a claim without scientific merit.
I don’t believe that. In fact, I got the virus a third time after my vaccination and booster. However I didn’t mention it because it’s anecdotal evidence, and we have real comprehensive data showing that my experience was an outlier.
Yet those who took vaccines did spread it.
This is not true. Some people (including me) got the virus after we had gotten the vaccine, and may have spread it. But we have data showing that the vaccine decreased the number of time that happened.
Everyone who is immune contracts viruses again and again. Their immunity may or may not destroy the virus so quickly they do not feel symptoms and/or do not spread the virus to anyone else.
This is unsupported. Is there data to back this claim up?
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@yachilviveyachali
Anyway, what I am saying is that I was studying medicine during the pandemic. This means I saw patients who had covid and other problems during the pandemic, including patients who had inflamed heart muscle and allergic reactions related to the vaccine. Did you see this?
No I didn’t, and I’m not denying it happened, but this is anecdotal evidence. Have you ever heard that saying “The plural of experience is data”? You have a couple data points, but we have studies with thousands of data points showing that the vaccine does more good than it’s unlikely side effects.
If I had chosen to work in biomedicine, I could have gone straight into working in a laboratory and looking at blood and other tissue samples. For how many decades do I need to be doing this to be considered an expert? I would be telling doctors what the problems are and their decisions would be informed by my findings
If you had chosen that route, you would be knowledgeable, but not necessarily an expert yet. I can’t tell you “if you work and study for X many years you will become an expert”, but part of being media literate is knowing how to find experts who are really in the top of their field.
I hate to break it to you, but herd immunity had already developed. The young people who have gotten vaccinated need to get their heads tested. Some did it for very stupid reasons; they wanted to travel and wanted to keep their precious jobs. It is pathetic.
Like I said before, I did it because I wanted to protect myself (it is still possible for me to die or get seriously sick) and for my grandparents who had a much higher risk of death.
Why did they pursue a vaccine if masks were so wonderful?
So we didn’t have to wear the masks anymore. I’d much rather have a brief second of pain rather than having to be uncomfortable wearing a mask whenever I go out.
You got vaccinated despite having covid twice and it being mild? This is akin to getting an imaginary set of balls sterilized, or being a 90-year-old woman and taking every contraceptive you can think of.
I got the vaccine because I had COVID twice. I wanted to be as careful as possible for myself and for others. The risk may have been low, but the cost of the vaccine was low enough that the cost/benefit ratio is good for me.
Yes, they did get infected. We have no control over it. We need to stop playing God. When are humans going to learn?
This is starting to get into more of the philosophy realm, but if you don’t want to at least try to make your life on earth better, I respect your right to an opinion, but I can’t understand what you live for.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
- Becuase you can never be too careful. I got the virus twice before I got my vaccine, and it was unpleasant enough that I didn’t want to get it again
- So I don’t get the virus and spread it to those at risk
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@yachilviveyachali
Physicians treat the patients. The researcher and the physician who spends most of their time with patients have both graduated from medical school. One of them is spending their time researching diseases in a laboratory, and the other is with the patient. Some physicians who work in primary medicine or emergency medicine are involved in research and they publish papers. Surgeons publish papers.
It's pretty simple here, the researchers are experts in their specific fields, the primary care physicians are knowledgeable, (most likely more knowledgeable than their patients) but not experts. Lots of people straw man this argument by pointing to false experts, but when I say expert, I mean like 1 in 10,000 people.
What seems very apparent to me is that the human body is an unpredictable thing, and cares not about papers.
That may or may not be true, but people with medical training can predict it at least somewhat better than the average layman can. We try to predict it because the other option is just living with whatever disease you have.
I have come to believe that credentials do not mean much. Some people are useless, or they are very bad. Their degree and their job title makes no difference. We are here to forge our own way in life, and should not be depending on the so-called experts to know what is right.
Yeah you're right, it doesn't just take credentials and a job to be an expert. This is a video by one of my favorite YouTubers, the part about experts is at roughly 4:38. You don't have to watch it (though I recommend highly) so TLDR is that experts are people who have devoted their lives to something. You aren't an expert because you only spent a few years studying in a very broad area, and neither is a doctor who is fresh out of med school or residency. However a doctor that spent their career researching the contagious diseases, how they spread, and specifically different mutations of COVID is an expert in that area. I wouldn't go to them for neurosurgery though, because they aren't an expert in that area.
Is this why the medical establishment compelled the young and healthy to be vaccinated? They lied.
They did not. They compelled everyone to get vaccinated so we can develop herd immunity and not spread the virus more. Even though I may not be at risk, I can still spread the virus to those who are at risk. This is a public facing FAQ published by Johns Hopkins in July 2021. The first question on the list is asking why should I get the vaccine even if I'm not severely at risk? The article answers that it keep other people safe. The medical establishment was very transparent about young people being safer, and they encouraged them to get the vaccine anyways to protect those who were more affected by the virus.
I don't believe masks achieved anything. What will be will be. Those who were going to be infected were infected. I am still not vaccinated. I caught covid-19 and it was mild.
This is just plain false. We have so much data showing us that masks work: (www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666142X20300126, "Regardless of the type, setting, or who wears the face mask, it serves primarily a dual preventive purpose; protecting oneself from getting viral infection and protecting others."onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/mds3.10163: "The current research results have shown that COVID-19 is mainly transmitted via droplets in the air. There is a potential risk of airborne transmission in an indoor environment with poor ventilation. The distance of droplet transmission can extend up to 4 m. Based on this data, the recommended social distancing range of 1–2 m (CDC, 2020; WHO, 2020) may not necessarily guarantee the epidemic prevention. Therefore, wearing mask in public is essential as its effectiveness has already been well established by the current studies.")
If you don't trust these sources because they're experts and part of the medical establishment, they publish their methods and findings. You don't have to blindly believe them because their work is out there for everyone to check. The data is free information.
Also, your anecdote doesn't really seem to help your claim. If you were vaccinated, you may not have caught the virus. Yes, it was mild you, but it may have not been mild for someone you spread it to. I got the virus twice before I was vaccinated, and it was mild, but my dad did get the virus and he had it much more severe. This is still anecdotal evidence though, so I wouldn't give it much credit. Finally, you said that those who were going to get infected got infected, but why not try to stop that. Why the pessimistic attitude? We know that masks, social distancing, and vaccines all stop the spread of the virus, so why not use them to keep people safer?
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@yachilviveyachali
When you have graduated and have chosen your field, you begin to work in this field. Doctors are often working for more than 12 hours a day. How much time do you think they have to continue studying?
Well that doctor isn’t an expert. Experts are really few and far between. A doctor who’s dedicated their career to developing medicine and better treatments for a specific conduction, and has published lots of papers and maybe books on the subject is an expert.
Can you support this claim? How do you know this is what they mean? How do you know their research comprises only one hour of googling? They could be spending months or years reading books and looking at reports.
Fair enough, that was a hyperbole, my bad. The point I was getting at is that most people work too. You may know more about a subject than the average person, but that doctor who went through med school is still most likely more qualified than you, because majority of their time for many years was dedicated to learning, throughout under-grad, grad school, and residency. Average people just don’t have that kind of time. That’s not to say that every doctor is an expert, but 99% of the time the average doctor is going to know more than you about medicine, and I’m not even saying we should trust these doctors about everything. Go to the very top, and find the specialist who dedicate their careers to learning about one thing, find multiple people at that level, and check their credentials. I’m not saying don’t be skeptical, but doing your own research doesn’t mean going against the status quo. The status quo is there for a reason, they’re right more often than not.
If others had read the reports, they would know that the young and healthy were unlikely to be hospitalized or to die from covid-19. This was the case prior to the vaccine and after the vaccine, although the young and healthy have ended up with anaphylaxis and inflamed heart muscle after receiving the jab.
Yeah, I read those reports, and I recall that’s what the medical establishment was saying too. I stayed at home and I wore a mask because I wanted to be as careful as possible for my health, and because I didn’t want to spread the virus to other people, namely my grandparents and other older people around me. I trusted the experts and we all knew I was at less risk, I just followed the guidelines for the safety of others that I cared about.
I have great respect for emergency physicians, less respect for the primary care physicians who fail to investigate and fail to make referrals and fail to diagnose. They fall apart when there is an issue that appears complicated. They will do anything to avoid trying to figure it out. These are doctors who want a simple explanation, one that is easy to treat. What happens when more is required?
That’s my point exactly, those aren’t the experts. Primary care physicians are great for the basic stuff, but when you have something special, you go to an expert in that field, a specialist.
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@yachilviveyachali
Okay, interesting point. I’ve got two responses:
- That’s a huge generalization. You’re going to need to give something to support that claim, and…
- Even if that is the case, that’s still much more time and effort spent studying a subject than most people will be able to get from an hour of googling, which is what most people mean when they say “I’m doing my own research”
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@AdaptableRatman
I was genuinely curious about this so I asked chatGPT. It ended up using the word “communitarianism” a lot, which isn’t an already defined ideology but I think it fits pretty well.
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@whiteflame
If we’re starting that late I probably won’t be able to do it
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@Savant
Okay, I’ll do my due diligence and read up to page six when I get home, but expect a hammer within the next half hour
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@iamanabanana
It wasn’t you denying the accusation, it was the way you said it. You immediately came off hostile with the exclamation points instead of trying to figure out what had really happened.
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@Mharman
I might have been willing to consider you as town if you bussed banana, but the fact that you’re still oblivious to her obviously being scum implicates you enough, not to mention you being in the PoE.
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@Mikal
@Savant
I’m ready to vote Banana, just say the word.
If this isn’t a OMGUS, I don’t know what is:
You are lying! I visited you last night!
And then we also have Mikal tracking her to Austin, which is damning enough.
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@Savant
I did, it was in one post.
BTW, sorry I haven’t been active. Big day today, ping me if I need to vote.
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@Mikal
Why would we assume that Earth is the only one to get the item?
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@Mikal
Alright. I’d still rather lynch the other two, but if everyone else wants to lynch Earth I can hammer.
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@Mikal
Okay, that make sense expect why couldn’t we lynch Mhar or Banana and do the same strategy? In my book both of them are scummier than Earth.
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@Mharman
Also, two people have copped me innocent, and I’m role confirmed, so that’s 90% of affiliation confirmation basically.
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@Mharman
Okay, let’s just say it was a bad idea on both sides to read to much into this discord thing. It was a stupid noticing on my part.
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@Mikal
That’s actually a good reason, didn’t think about that. I confused his role being cop and getting the cop item.
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Can someone please explain to me why Earth is still in the PoE? I asked this before and didn't get a satisfactory answer. He copped me innocent, that should be enough after my second cop.
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@Mharman
First of all, why am I under investigation from you? I'm town confirmed, your in the PoE, statistically with a 2/3 chance of being scum. I'll answer your questions, but just so everyone else can see my answers, not so you can.
1. DP1, you implied that others were mislynches, while not calling yourself a mislynch. Why?
I already explained this. It's because I was working things out from the POV of me being scum. It was hypothetical.
2. DP2, you had said I might have been trying to bait you into saying you were in a discord with Lunatic. However, you thinking about that makes me wonder if you’re thinking about how you can’t say you’re in a chat with him. What is your argument against this line of thinking?
It's stupid. The fact that you implied I had a discord chat with Luna honestly seems like a scum-slip to me.
3. Austin is role confirmed, and so are you. What do you make of that?
I feel like that's the reason I shouldn't be being interrogated. We've been over this, it isn't new information.
4. What do you think of Austin?
Town confirmed, you said it yourself
5. What do you think of the idea that mafia team failed to submit an answer DP1, and that you and Austin miscommunicated yesterday on who gets the town cred, and are both scum?
Two questions ago you said that we both were town confirmed?!
6. What is the case for you being town?
You said it yourself, I'm town confirmed.
This interrogation is a cheap attempt to seem town, and it's too little too late. The questions make no sense and are clearly made by someone who is scum and trying to seem genuine.
VTL Mharman
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@Savant
I’ll go ahead and knock most of these out in a single post
Earth might be a scum
But he copped me innocent
That leaves just two left
- the poet Moozer
SCUM MUST BE BETWEEN BANANA AND MHARMAN
🌎👮♀️🫎😇 so 😈🟰🍌🏀🙋♂️
It’s 7:19 right now which means we still have some time left in the DP, but only because it’s 7:19. Remember, if it’s not 7:19 then we have less time left in the DP becuase right now it’s 7:19. Just remember, it’s 7:19.
Banana’s OMGUS in the first DP wasn’t very WIFOM but it’s probably NAI. Even so, she’s in my POE. I didn’t see anything in the OP about banana though so I’m not sure what she did last NP, but I know she didn’t get the NK or use a RB or a PGO.
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@Mikal
So why doesn’t that lead to a banana/Mharman scum team? Why is Earth still in your PoE?
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@Mikal
I thought the whole point of using your ability on me was so we could give cred to Earth as well? Earth seems a lot more like town now that you’ve confirmed me too, so doesn’t that just leave the easy choice of Mhar and Banana?
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@Mikal
Moozer should be able to confirm.I typed his role exactly as it was given to me.
Can confirm, I am the “popular townie”. Not really much of a confirmation though, I can’t really think of another way to say that role.
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@Lunatic
I clicked on the link but it feels like only the last part of the message is in the doc
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Okay, I don't like any of our Lynch options, but I've got my PoE down to a whiteflame/banana scum team.
Savant is a big town read behaviorally, and Earth says he copped me inno, so from my POV he's a hard town. Mikal is a town read too now. No scum would put themselves on the line just to get past 1 DP in a 2v7 situation unless they have a double vig, which if they do, I'm never playing a Luna game again.
Austin's role is in no way a scum role, and I really can't see a world where he lies about it. I genuinely think Luna made some sort of mistake. Out of anyone, I should be the one who should be pushing his Lynch the most because I CCed him, but I really don't see a game where he is scum.
I don't like mharman's behavior too much, but I never do, so he's a null. I've got no reason to sus pie, which is usually a good sign for him. I've got no reason to give him town-cred though, so null on that one too.
That leaves whiteflame and banana. I like both of their behavior, and I've been pushing for both of them being town for a while, but everything else has forced my hand, and I don't think I can defend banana anymore, or whiteflame. Whiteflame's role seems like the fake-claim. It's a game that should definitely be in the game, but it's a very scummy role. The fact that Whiteflame doesn't want to reveal the other roles on his wheel doesn't sit well with me, and the fact that he has a role that can do that feels very fake-claim-y.
As for Banana, the fact that whiteflame confirms her night action makes her seem complicit. Then she keeps pushing the Mikal lynch this DP, and it gets to be too much. Earlier when we were just going on behavior, I fell on her side more, but now that we have more info, everything seems to override my reads, and I have to go with it now.
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@Savant
I get that part, and I'm on board with his plan. The problem is I'm not seeing the translation from that to trusting him on everything so much that we give him the item. Either way though, I trust you enough and I already voted so this is kinda pointless.
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@Savant
Okay, gonna vote
1. Mikal
2. Banana
3. Earth
Why did we decide to give it Mikal? Not going against it, but I'm still in the process of catching up right now so a TLDR would be nice.
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@Savant
I didn't realize he had offered himself up as the Lynch if he was wrong. Must have missed it, my bad.
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@Mikal
The fact that you're just expecting us to blindly trust you makes me scum-read you more. Your not in a position where we can trust you that much. You're behavior hasn't been super town, and I've got no reason to blindly write you off as town.
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@Savant
Pretty sure it doesn't. I clarified with Luna and when I get to five votes the vote count will just read "5/5" but the DP won't end. If I'm lying and I do get lynched at five votes, well then you just lynched scum.
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@ILikePie5
Or you just made the mistake and are scum.
1. I was thinking out loud from my POV, so obviously I know I'm not scum, and 2. Even if you think so low of my scum abilities that I would CC Austin at that point, I've theoretically got two scumbuddies backing me up who would never let me do that.
Neither of you are affiliation confirmable
Well sure, but Luna isn't a bastard mod, and IMO popular and gladiator are both pretty town-sided roles
Does your power go away at MYLO/LYLO?
Just messaged Luna now, will get back to you
What are the exact justifications yall were provided. Paraphrase to the best of abilities your PM
In my game show, points don't matter and you only win popularity with the audience, so thus I'm a popular townie.
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