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@Mharman
Let's think this out then. If there is a redirector, who's the best Lynch?
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@Sir.Lancelot
Buddhism is a philosophy that westerners misinterpreted as a religion. It's really more akin to stoicism, or another Hellenistic school of greek philosophy.
Frankly though, it misses some things as a philosophy too. While it's correct that suffering stems from desire, it forgets that happiness also stems from desire. Desire fulfilled is happiness, desire not realized is suffering. If you take out desire completely, you aren't left with peace or nirvana, you're just left with nothing. It's like swallowing some dynamite to cure cancer. Sure it works, but you kinda missed the point.
As for Hinduism, it's the same as all other major religions. It's a cool story, but is there any evidence?
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@Mharman
But is it likely? I know it's on the list but do we have any reason to specifically believe it exists?
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As far as I can tell, Banana has to be town because of this double-voting gambit, and if she isn't somehow, she gets lynched this DP because we see that her vote only counts for one. Pie copped me and flipped town, so that leaves Whiteflame, Luna, and Mhar on the table. Whiteflame claimed to have RBed both Luna and Mhar so neither could have done the NK (if WF is telling the truth), but if Whiteflame is lying then he's scum anyways.
I don't see any other way around this.
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@Mharman
the thing that gives me pause is how ready he is to self lynch. I want to take our time this DP. This game has been quick.
That's just behavior reads. We've been well past that for some time.
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@Lunatic
@Mharman
@iamanabanana
Okay, so I think we have the game solved here. If everyone's okay with it, Banana pulls the trigger on whiteflame and confirms herself. There's no way whiteflame is town at this point, so I say we just go for it.
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@Mharman
Okay, so that just leads me to believe that whiteflame is scum even more. You and Lunatic both can't be scum because the same thing happened to both of you. Whiteflame has to be lying then.
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@Lunatic
Okay, so realistically I probably get NKed (which I'm totally fine with), and whiteflame gets lynched. That leaves Banana, you, and Mhar. The game comes down to Banana then. I like those odds. If we can come up with a better three player setup for the last DP though, let's hear it.
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@Lunatic
Exactly. It doesn't really matter if Whiteflame is town or not at this point. The game is essentially solved, unless I'm missing something.
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@iamanabanana
Good. Wait until mharman gets online, but ultimately I still think we should do this. Your call now.
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@iamanabanana
stand by for your ability, make sure no one hammers, we want to confirm you too.
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Nonetheless, I’m the clear lynch this DP so here we are.
Well you definitely were during the last DP, but now we're almost as MYLO. I guess we've got one more DP though.
Nobody VTL yet though, we need to get banana to use her ability so we can get two confirmations.
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Just skimmed the DP, this seems like an obvious choice.
White flame lynch pretty much solves the game. It doesn't matter if he's town, (I believe that's a possibility) because there's no one else who seems scummy enough to outweigh the benefits of mislynching white flame. If we get it right, we win. If we get it wrong, we town confirm two more players by using Banana's ability.
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Okay, that’s an okay claim by Pie, I’ll take it for now. He generally goes in my town pile. I didn’t like that he held off claiming for so long, but it’s on point for his play style so it wasn’t a surprise.
I also townread him behaviorally for his attitude towards That2 in DP1 as stated before. His role is also expected in this game and he hasn’t really been CCed so that’s good enough for me.
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I’m noticing a theme that the justifications are all pretty shaky this game
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@ILikePie5
At this point it’s less about who I want to claim first, it’s about how resistant you were to claim anything but last. There’s so much information out there now that I don’t really give a shit who goes first, (though if I had to choose I’d have pie claim first).
Even though I initially townread you, it’s still blind trust because you gave no indication as to why you needed to claim last. If you’re leading the claims like that then you’re leaning in the direction of getting more information. But if you’re not willing to claim yourself until everyone else has, that feels like you want information for scum purposes, not to share it with everyone.
I town read you less and less as this whole thing goes on.
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Help me get Mharman’s full claim.
No, I'm not going to just blindly trust you. I know that this is how you play the game, I learned that my first time playing, but even then you claimed to be confirmable.
You reek town to me. Have a little trust
This feels like you trying to outright flatter me.
Look, I townread you, but that's just DP1 behavioral reads. It's not enough for me to blindly trust you. If you and Mhar had agreed to claim at roughly the same time, that would have been fine, but now you're trying to stand on this hill of claiming last which honestly makes me want you to claim first.
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@ILikePie5
If you can give a reason to go last based on your role, that would be fine, but it looks like you just want to go last for the sake of it. If you don't tell us why that just makes you look suspicious.
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@ILikePie5
This is a genuine question, is there a reason you haven't claimed yet?
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Just reread DP1 in relation to That2. Most notably, That2 heavily pushed an early Whiteflame Lynch. It seemed much to hard of a push to be bussing. Obviously whiteflame's claim sucks, but this behavior confuses me a bit. Luna and Pie also pushed an early softclaim from That2 so that gives slight town cred to them IMO. Not a ton though.
My big takeaway from this is that I'm not as sure about Whiteflame by now.
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I should probably go next due to my role. I’m the Tejas, one of India’s first attempts at a modern 4th gen fighter jet. The justification is pretty light, but I’m a vanilla, presumably because I’m a first attempt by India and they didn’t try anything special with me.
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Okay, sorry for not being as active as I should be. Just got out from being under anesthesia, but that was a one time thing. I should be more active for the rest of the game.
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Sorry I haven't been active enough, it's been a busy day. I'm reading the DP now, will post thoughts in a minute.
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@ILikePie5
I’m not a stealth fighter far as I can tell.
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Open question to anyone, what do people make of this post by that2?
i am town please do not kill me
Bullish did pretty much the same thing last game and I mentioned it then too. I know it’s probably DP1 fluff so I’m not taking it seriously or anything.
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@Mikal
Pretty the same thing happened to me with the PMs. I’d disregard it though, Bullish is enough of an experienced mod to let it affect the game. I’ll follow your lead though.
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Yeah, I was a little too dead-set on Earth for a bit there. I privately toyed with lynching Banana or Cerulean, but it was never enough to get past my Earth suspicion. Well played by scum, Mhar had me fooled completely with is behavior, and the re-director action was well played. I really wish we had lynched Earth DP2 instead of confirming me though. That's where things really started going wrong IMO, we were just behind on lynching from then on.
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@iamanabanana
Oh, and I found this in mafia universe
In the majority of cases, players are not informed that their Night actions were redirected.
So I guess I was wrong. That’s on me.
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Okay, DP ends tomorrow at noon and I don’t want to miss a hammer, so…
VTL Earth
If anyone wants me to remove my vote for whatever reason, tag me.
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
That's not been my understanding of the role, Whiteflame could you clarify as a more experienced player?
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@iamanabanana
But wouldn't you have been notified when you got redirected? This is what I don't understand about the whole redirection thing, you targeted Luna, right? If you were redirected then you would get a result from someone else, not Luna.
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@iamanabanana
They could be, but there’s no way that both you and Earth are town.
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@iamanabanana
It’s more about why I sus Cerulean that why I don’t sus Mharman
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@iamanabanana
Then why am I the only person he is discussing a scum read on? I've asked him multiple times to elaborate a read on anyone, both in the forums and in the discord chat, and he keeps refocusing it on me lol
He’s just pursuing the less talked about options. Earth is the obvious lynch so even though it seems like he’s targeting you, he’s just skipping redundancy by talking about Earth.
I am not sure I understand this one.
Some people just naturally act scummy as part of their gameplay. Behavior is a good tool in DP1, but after that it’s less and less helpful. My read is a weird one, so it make sense that it’s hard to understand, but it’s a lot like Scooby Doo in some ways. It’s never who you most expect because scum is going to try to act most like town. I’m just realizing as Im typing this that this is an horrible explanation, sorry.
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@iamanabanana
Thought I was clear that it was Cerulean, but I think I only posted it once so my bad. Mharman is coming on too strong to be scum, it's a bit of a WIFOM argument, but he's so scummy there's no way he's scum. Cerulean's role also seems a little inherently scummy too me. It's begging to not be lynched.
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@iamanabanana
Its extremely funny that whiteflame keeps trying to sell the fact that he isn't being close minded here, while further pointing to my complaints of him being close minded as a addition to his argumnet. Lol it's funny, but I am done responding to him, he clearly has his mind made up. Not much more I can really say or do here.
You realize he's not going to lynch you over Earth, right? This is how you play mafia, you put everything out on the table just in case we missed something. He's doing his due diligence and following every possible lead.
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@whiteflame
To put it bluntly, I don't think it's holding. It's not bad reasoning but no detailed analysis is going to convince me more my current Earth scum-read, and the Banana vs. Earth night actions discrepancy.
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@whiteflame
I’m not convinced (and don’t currently believe) that Earth and Banana are a scum team.
Well that's exactly my point. Do you really scum-read Banana more than Earth? I'm not saying that Banana is squeaky clean, but in an either/or situation there's no contest between the two IMO.
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@whiteflame
Then we can look at the claims so far (setting aside Moozer whose role has been confirmed, though I would like his input on this):
I assume these PM investigations are mostly for the next DP, but good idea to get it out now in case something happens tonight.
It's interesting how you arrived at Banana as the odd one out from your analysis. Your methods sound like they're done well, so I think banana isn't entirely correct with the apophenia allegation. That said, that brings up the Earth v Banana dynamic and how that would work if Banana is scum. This all depends on a potential Earth scum flip, but either Banana is town and then their tracker result makes sense, or Banana is scum and set up a hard bussing situation between them self and Earth. There was also something about a possible scum re-director, but Earth got his result from Cerulean, so shouldn't that imply that he wasn't redirected? If I misunderstood something, help me out here.
I still really want the Earth lynch today, but If I missed something in your reasoning that should make me more suspicious of banana, I'm all for it.
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@iamanabanana
Okay, fair enough. I must have misread because you spent a lot of time on Whiteflame and barely even mentioned Earth.
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@iamanabanana
What about Earth? Is your PoE really those three? Because Earth is my number one scum read, and I’d figure you’d have him higher since either he was redirected, or he’s lying, or you’re lying (but from your POV you’d know that you aren’t)
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Sorry I haven’t been active enough.
Interesting role claim by Mharman. I already townread him before and his role seems like a weird scum claim, so he’s firmly in my town pile.
As for Cerulean, I figure that “die” refers to lynch or NK, which makes the role feel a little scummy. It’s another one of those “don’t lynch me” roles, although I was the other one so maybe I shouldn’t be talking. If he survives this next night, I’m going to really suspect him, but I sus Earth way more for now. Also, side note that’s another RB-like role which gives Whiteflame a little more town cred, and maybe some town cred to Cerulean. It still feels like not enough roleblocking to justify WF’s role though, I could still see scum having a RB.
As for the Banana v Earth situation, my feelings remain the same. I scum-read earth last DP, and now that we know either he or banana is lying I think that’s an easy choice.
My proposed game plan, we lynch Earth this DP, if Cerulean survives we probably end up lynching them. I town read Mharman and Whiteflame, and if Earth flips scum then that gives major town cred to Banana, which leaves us with the already a little suspicious cerulean to lynch. And Ceruleans role doesn’t really matter, because we’re at MYLO anyways.
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@Mharman
Sure didn't sound that way when you said it
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