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@disgusted
If I couldn't tell the difference, I would have surely presented you something.
At best, I can only present you an image that points, and only if activated with truth.
But whatever I present will be discounted by you as creation, because words are created things.
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@keithprosser
Do I need a rational reason?
Hey, I'm pretty fearless. I don't care whether I live or die.
Teleporters? The one tging that freaks me out.
I think Bones would agree.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
You know, if you are going to get on me for something, you shouldn't be doing it yourself.
Congratulations on being a post man hating woman. My married life is very fine, and we are Orthodox. That's about as traditional as you can get.
Sorry to hear that you find our relationship humiliating.
Meanie...
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I would never get in one of those things. Hell no.
I don't need to know the math behind it. Big NOPE.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
I don't think that traditional marriage is any more humiliating for the woman as it is for the man.
But it isn't possible for the humble to be humiliated.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
"humiliating shackles of conservative traditionalism" is not an argument either.
Opinion for opinion.
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@disgusted
You know as well as I do that it is absurd to request that I present you with something uncreated.
We are, after all, communicating through the medium of created things.
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@disgusted
Not at all. I don't want them to die.
But if they do, maybe the superstition of these savages will cause them to attribute it to murdering this visitor to their island and they will be nicer.
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@Castin
Well, I hope they don't get sick. If that means anything.
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@Swagnarok
For example, somebody with the Orthodox church devised this technique long ago:1. Shut yourself in a dark closet, alone with God.2. Clear your thoughts. Have as empty a mind as possible.3. Keep repeating the following prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." Either mentally, in whispers, or out loud.I actually kind of want to do this, though I know that with the way I'm living my life right now it would be inappropriate.
This is hesychasm, and it is actually a practice that goes back to the desert fathers who lived around 250 AD. The spirit of it is that you are focused on God. That prayer is one way of doing it, though that particular method didn't crop up until maybe 800 years later. It is a good practice.
One of the many things evangelical Christianity misses out on are the saints. The Orthodox has a calendar where every day has saints to learn up on. We remember those who came before, because it is important.
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@Swagnarok
Evangelical Christianity is certainly missing something. It is more than simply "asceticism" and "intellectual tradition". They only have part of the faith, it is incomplete.
It isn't just forsaking 2000 years of wisdom, it is forsaking the entire church.
They were right to break away from the Pope in Rome. The Orthodox Church is not structured in such a way. We recognize Jesus Christ as King, not the Bishop of Rome.
It's a good time to come home though, especially for Americans, because the Orthodox Church is very small and not really even fully formed in America. There are what, 3 to 6 million Orthodox at most in America. Too many of these protestant or evangelical churches preach heresies from the pulpit. The spirit of truth isn't there. They would benefit from an education rooted in church tradition.
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@triangle.128k
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@RationalMadman
I certainly know The Truth.
But I don't know how many germs are swimming in my nose.
Because I know The Truth, I know the difference between faith in knowledge of The Truth and The Truth itself.
Since I am surprised, since I learn things, since I don't know how many germs are swimming in my nose, I know that I don't know everything. Since I don't know everything, I don't know God. But I know this from knowing God.
And this is really not an easy thing to communicate, especially to someone who makes knowledge their idol before God.
The Truth =/= Knowledge
Even true knowledge is not the truth. In fact, true knowledge is to know this even.
True knowledge is epignosis.
And how do you communicate this knowledge beyond knowledge?
It is as absurd as communicating the uncreated through the medium of creation.
And that is why we have The Word of God, Jesus Christ here in the flesh, the Trinity of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The mysteries of this true knowledge is communicated in these doctrines, to those who have a mind to understand.
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Political correctness is by definition politically correct, right?
What is actually politically incorrect is when people appear to sacrifice their integrity for the sake of political correctness.
So attempted political correctness backfiring is not politically correct.
Make sense?
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@RationalMadman
I don't have to know The Truth to know how to love The Truth.
If I love The Truth, I don't lie to myself. I must be sincere. If I discover that I have been honestly wrong, I repent.
It's a relationship. That is where the religion comes in. Abide in The Truth.
And that is a living faith, it isn't something you realize, then keep in the back of your mind and forget. It's a way of life.
And if you have any deep understanding of what is true, how off the mark you are should be a real manifest thing. There is a certain humility that should naturally come with that realization.
I speak boldly, not of my own merits, but of God Almighty who is the savior of all men, especially those who believe.
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@RationalMadman
Faith in The Truth is not the same as Faith in knowledge or even knowledge of the truth.
No amount of sophistry and rhetoric is going to overthrow this reality, and neither would a million votes to the contrary.
As I predicted, you can't tell the difference because you are a gnostic.
No amount of sophistry and rhetoric is going to overthrow this reality, and neither would a million votes to the contrary.
As I predicted, you can't tell the difference because you are a gnostic.
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@RationalMadman
Because I know The Truth, I know I do not know The Truth. My faith is in The Truth, not the knowledge I have of The Truth.
This really isn't something that can be taught, especially if your god is knowledge. It will be foolishness to you.
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@RationalMadman
I don't understand that the debate is what I am talking about.
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@RationalMadman
I know that my faith is in The Truth, not what I know.
I know what I believe. I can tell the difference between The Uncreated and creation.
This is epignosis, not gnosis.
Knowledge of The Truth =/= The Truth.
If your faith is in knowledge of the truth, you are still falling short, and sin is in you. You believe lies are true.
Let God be true, and every man a liar.
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@RationalMadman
You are correct in a semantic sense to say to know something is to be gnostic.
However, the Orthodox faith is not faith in knowledge, but faith in The Truth. Faith in The Truth does not forsake knowledge, but as the scriptures read...
"keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith."
Gnosis =/= epignosis
The faith is not gnosticism, gnosticism is an error, and as the church fathers rightly discerned, the gnostics didn't really agree on much. They leaned on their own understanding, not The Word of God, which is Truth. The same can be seen in the neo-gnostics of today, who have this in common... their faith is in knowledge(so called at least), and not THE TRUTH.
Someone with a gnostic mindset will find it difficult to understand the difference, because to them truth is knowledge. So it would be natural for the gnostic to interpret what I say as simply another knowledge to have faith in, knowledge that I claim is true knowledge.
If that is what you understand me to be saying, I will say ahead of time that this isn't what I'm saying.
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@Greyparrot
Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.
If God is The Truth, what is moral?
Accepting reality, accepting the truth, and not putting in its place vain imaginings.
And loving others comes from accepting The Truth, because if we do not forgive others their sins we are like the man who begged to his debtor for more time to pay him back. The debtor forgave the whole debt, and the one who was forgiven left to break the knees of those who owed him money. When the one who forgave the debt finds out about how the one he forgave went on and behaved unmercifully towards others that were in his position, he will have him tormented until every last penny is paid.
So true morality comes from the love of God, The Truth, not an arbitrary sense of personal aesthetics.
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@Greyparrot
It is what it is.
If God willed that something should be, who am I to say that it should have been different?
To love God is to accept reality. Is natural selection a reality? It sure seems that way.
Natural selection doesn't simply dictate that the strong take over the Earth. Natural selection also dictates that the strong will be brought down and made weak. Their strength is temporary.
The strength of God is Eternal.
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@Greyparrot
Is it evil that a society that puts its faith in lying vanities, forsakes reality, rests on its decadence, and neglects to strengthen the hand of the poor gets wrecked by calamity?
No, it's natural selection, and it is divine judgement.
But the rain falls on the just as well as the unjust.
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@Greyparrot
Good = True
God is The Ultimate Reality.
God is good because God is the most true.
The fall of man happened when people, with the knowledge of good and evil, took themselves as being the rightful judges of these things when we are both too invested in this world and lack perspective.
God is good all the time. All the time, God is good.
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@Castin
Maybe when they all start dying, they'll attribute it to murdering this man who came to their Island, and be nicer to visiters in the future.
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@RationalMadman
Gnosticism is a heresy that was denounced by the earlier church. What you are expressing is the gnostic position.
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@triangle.128k
The Orthodox Catholic Church is the true church.
The Roman Catholics have made many innovations in the faith, not the least of which is altering the Nicene Creed which the whole church agreed on. There is a reason why the bishop of Rome was excommunicated from the rest of the church.
What makes more sense, that 4 Patriarchs rebelled against 1 or that 1 Patriarch left the 4? The Roman Church for hundreds of years tried to make rulings outside of its jurisdiction, and was rebuked by the other Patriarchs. The Roman Church uses Latin, the other churches use Greek. What language is the New Testament written in?
The Pope of Rome is not the king over Christendom, Jesus Christ is, and that is why they were EXCOMMUNICATED.
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@Castin
The bible certainly is for the chutch to interpret, not heretics or unbelievers. You can use the bible to teach anything. It has been used to teach anything. The church uses the bible properly. The church is the property of Jesus, The Word of God.
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@Castin
By the way, the Orthodox Church to my knowledge does not actually take a stand on the bible being inerrant or not. This is a protestant phenomina.
The bible was created by the church, it is our property, so it is interpreted in the light of our tradition.
So all these heretics running around saying, "the bible says this, the bible says that" would be wise to look into what The Orthodox Church says, because if what they are saying contradicts Church Tradition it cannot be a valid interpretation.
Protestant churches are all new churches, and the churches that spring up independently of even protestantism have no history. Well intended though many of these churches might be, they should really consider Orthodoxy, because this is the church of the apostles, and this is the true church.
And I am happy to answer any questions other Christians have about Orthodoxy, because as someone who was not raised Orthodox at all, I know how it can look very different than what it is from a surface glance.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I recommend the book "Messengers of Deception Ufo Contacts and Cults" by Jacques Vallee to get more insight into Stephen's fanaticism.
The neo-gnostic ufo cult revival thing is investigated in this book, and it is a very interesting read that really sheds a lot of light into how people's superstitions concerning UFOs and belief in aliens are taken advantage of.
It is a really good read.
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Go on a yarn with me for a moment. Read these key scriptures, and then I will explain at the end. The key here is The Word of God.
As God spoke through Isaiah the prophet...
"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
And as the Apostle Peter writes...
"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
The Apostle John writes...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
The Apostle James writes...
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."
So what does all of this mean?
Eternal Life is The Truth, and the entire Christian discipline is abiding in The Truth, because everything else is destined to burn eternally in the fire that is reserved for the devil and his angels.
What makes life for you? What is your identity? Is that who you really are, or is it an illusion? In the end, everything will be revealed for what it truly is, in a way that we, as creatures who were made to not see things as they truly are can fathom.
So what is eternal life?
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Jesus Christ is The Word of God, and as you can see from that quotation from John, everything was created by and through the word of God. Jesus Christ is here among us. This is the mystery of The Word being made flesh if you can understand.
"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God."
Salvation is of God The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit.
Simply put, God Saves. If you abide in death, you will die eternally. If you abide in The Truth you will live eternally.
It's all about God.
Or as John the Baptist said, and really, all Christians should say, "I must become less, so that He becomes more."
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Everyday is thanksgiving! That is my religion.
But all the family in the area will be coming together. There will be food and drink, and a merry time had by all. My brother, my spouse's sister, her husband, the kids. A good excuse to sip on that ale if you ask me.
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I'm going to go with martyr.
You know, there is even a biblical precedent for being a fool for Christ sake.
It is even a classification for saint in Orthodox tradition.
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@janesix
Deeeeez muuuuugs
Lol
Thats the kind of language my spouse and I use when talking about certain behaviors. You know, like, "look at this dude over here pullin a mug move"
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@Castin
Scripture removed from Church tradition can be used to deceive people into anything. Look at Stephen. His intention is to use scripture to scare people away from it. As Jesus said, it would be better if a millstone were tied around his neck and he were cast into the sea! By dishonestly making use of scripture, he may be pushing people away from actually getting the message. Besides him, there are hundreds if not thousands of churches in the United States that use the bible to preach the whim of the pastor... The Bible really, is the property of the Orthodox Church, the very church descended from the apostles, and so she is the rightful interpreter of scripture.
As written by the Apostle Peter...
"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
And as for what scripture is used for, the Apostle Paul writes..
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
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@keithprosser
You calling yourself an atheist is an arbitrary thing, because you are not really an atheist.
Yet, in doing so, you fulfil the scripture that reads...
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."
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@keithprosser
If you want to keep calling yourself an atheist though, you are closing yourself off from really ever understanding where I or my people are coming from.
And well, since you don't really understand, it won't make sense to you when I say that leads to tyranny.
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@keithprosser
Look dude, it's not an arbitrary thing. It is so much more simple than what you are making it.
The Ultimate Reality is what God means.
You believe a theory of everything is God.
Which by the way, is silly because a theory cannot be an ultimate reality as it is contingent on a theorizer, which is a mind.
But no, even though itnis clumsily formulated, you certainly believe in God, because you believe in Ultimate Reality, and that is what God means.
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"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
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@keithprosser
Your conception of God is not The Ultimate Reality.
That is why you are confused.
But you believe in ultimate reality, so you believe in God.
Now it is just a matter of realization.
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@Stephen
You don't understand my faith, neither are you interested in learning.
I'm not interested in talking to you. I think you are a moron.
I'm not interested in talking to you. I think you are a moron.
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@keithprosser
So, you can't believe in the existence of Ultimate Reality?
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Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. It was said earlier in this topic that Jesus is our inspiration. I will go with that.
The Truth.
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@Stephen
You lack good mannerisms.
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@janesix
I'm not really familiar with her.
It sounds to me like you would be interested in the Philokalia. Ihave heard it said that The Orthodox Church has embraced the mystical side of Christianity a great deal more readily than the Romans. I believe this.
Philokalia is very good.
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@Stephen
You insult me nearly every post you make toward me which is against the TOS as well, glass house.
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