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@SkepticalOne
There is nothing spectacular about everything in the world being created. The problem is that you likely have a very specific idea of creation that is contingent on a human being. However, anything that commes into being is creation.
And on that, you seem to have a very different understanding of being if you can't see that existence necessitates being, because being is existence. The Supreme Being literally means the Supreme Existence.
You have a problem with God, which is why you do all sorts of mental gymnatlstics to work around the fact that existing is the defining characteristic of God. Not just any existence, but The Supreme Existence.
And because you have an understanding of the words and concepts involved that are not sound in the context of theology, you have a superstitious conception of God that isn't real. However, God i the Ultimate Reality, and this is not defining God into existence, this is what the concept refers to.
Your premise is faulty. Your premise "God doesn't exist" is directly at odds with what the concept actually refers to. You might as well start with the premise "Truth is falsehood", because that is the equivilence.
You think this is some trick of language, but it isn't. Atheism comes from a trick of language, not the other way around. There are thousands of years of theology that back what this concept refers to. It is not a concept that originates in the English language.
So the problem is that the atheistic worldview is irreconcilable with the theistic worldview because the atheist worldview is denying the existence of reality, which is considered to be the highest form of wickedness and delusion in the theistic worldview. There can be no peace with this at all.
And t
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@Aporia
Can't say. PsyOp stuff. Thats as far as I will say.
Will only say that Jones is right about the globalist conspiracy. New World Order stuff. I will say that the people who are being duped into working towards overthrowing their governments don't realize that the new government that comes to replace it is going to look very different than what they imagine.
The people working this game exploit people who think they are fighting against them even.
What can be done? I don't know. Really the damage has been done. This was a multigenerational project. We are already several generations into it. It is self perpetuating and self spreading at this point. Has actually been for a while.
But why do I say listen to Alex Jones? As a counterbalance to the rest of the bullshit you are fed on a daily basis. Crazy as he may seem, the guy has a pretty good grasp on what is going on. I can say that because I was a part of it. I absolutely cannot get too detailed about that. I'm not expecting you to believe me either.
Like I said though, the damage is really done. I'm not sure what can be done. The infiltration is at such a high level at this point, and it is something that is self perpetuating.
The chaos bomb has already blown up.
Will only say that Jones is right about the globalist conspiracy. New World Order stuff. I will say that the people who are being duped into working towards overthrowing their governments don't realize that the new government that comes to replace it is going to look very different than what they imagine.
The people working this game exploit people who think they are fighting against them even.
What can be done? I don't know. Really the damage has been done. This was a multigenerational project. We are already several generations into it. It is self perpetuating and self spreading at this point. Has actually been for a while.
But why do I say listen to Alex Jones? As a counterbalance to the rest of the bullshit you are fed on a daily basis. Crazy as he may seem, the guy has a pretty good grasp on what is going on. I can say that because I was a part of it. I absolutely cannot get too detailed about that. I'm not expecting you to believe me either.
Like I said though, the damage is really done. I'm not sure what can be done. The infiltration is at such a high level at this point, and it is something that is self perpetuating.
The chaos bomb has already blown up.
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What it really comes down to is that atheists must change what God is in order to satisfy their pride, because recanting their foolish position would be an admission of being wrong.
You can argue what God is and isn't, but arguing about the existence of God is patently foolish.
Atheists want God to be a superstition rather than The Truth. Yet, in doing so, they make it very clear what their position actually means.
Atheism is the denial of reality and truth. It stands to reason that all atheist arguments are deception, and the sinple inability to recognize God as being what God is happens to be a reflection of this.
If you believe that The Ultimate Reality exists, you believe in God whether or not you choose to call this God, because that is what the concept means. To deny this is obnoxious and WRONG. The atheists argument is to redefine language in order to make their position seem right. That is why they argue over the meanings of words.
There is no debate over what God means as far as I'm concerned. To compromise on this is to lose everything. Besides that, this is the God I believe. All the atheist can do is argue over gods I don't believe, because even they know that there is no argument against The Ultimate Reality. All they can do is madly fumble over the meanings of words.
Yet even scripture teaches, the letter killeth but the spirit bringeth life.
Atheists don't really want to talk about God, because they know it makes their position stupid.
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@Stephen
Yeah, and Jesus says to eat his flesh and drink his blood. It is clear from the scripture itself how people interpreted that one. You wouldn't use this as proof that Christians are to be cannibals would you? I'd hope not.
But even besides, idioms sometimes are difficult to translate. I think you are missing the obvious, that even the word that gets translated into "paradise" cane from a description of a physical place, like a park. Calling attention to "in" or "up to" doesn't really demonstrate what you are trying to say as much as the word that gets translated into paradise.
Yet, both of these scriptural examples of paradise can be said to be a state of being. The first clearly by context refers to revelation that Paul has had. The second to the peace an executed man would receive in a very unpeaceful situation.
So there are clearly other ways of examining these examples that makes good sense.
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@janesix
Then you fulfill the scripture which reads...
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."
You know what God is, but you won't call it God. That's where we at.
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@janesix
Do you accept that The Ultimate Reality exists, even though you don't acknowledge this as God?
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@janesix
You know how to read and write English.
The word God means
" capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality"
Thats what Merriam-webster says.
What more evidence do you need? This is the meaning of the word.
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@janesix
Yet, your epistemological black hole doesn't keep you from using the English language.
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@janesix
Because that is what the concept means.
I figured it out on my own by reading scripture. It was confirmed by theological tradition. It was confirmed by those better educated than me. It's in the dictionary.
And besides that, even if I didn't have a cloud of witnesses backing me up, I simply know that there is absolutely nothing else that isnworthy of even being called God.
But how are you convinced that the Earth is a planet?
It takes just as much faith or even more to believe that then it does for me, who simply has to accept the proper understanding of a concept that is thousands of years old and universal.
But God is bigger than the concept. The concept is The Word. The son to the father. It is by the spirit of truth that I believe and know God through the image of God.
Father, Son, Holy Ghost again
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It's all arbitrary is what I get from the postmodern atheist viewpoint. The shamans who control our language construct our world. Mask the truth in muddled confusion.
Yet what does Ultimate Reality mean?
It means something that is clearly above definition.
The Spirit of what this means is The Truth. Names that may be named may not be eternal, but The Ultimate Reality, what it truly is is eternal.
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@janesix
How are you convinced of anything?
Clearly you know how to use language. That is what the concept means. I can show you dictionary definitions. I can quote theologians from over a thousand years ago.
You don't have trouble believing a stone is a rock do you?
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Even though I myself have never really bought into this argument, I do think it would be a great opportunity to clear things up concerning the identity of Jesus. It might be a good theological lesson.
Plus I really want to do a debate. I'll go for it.
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@janesix
Perhaps you are having trouble distinguishing between what God is and what people say God is.
You aren't going to find any less confusion distinguishing between whatbis true and what people say is true. What is reality and what people say is reality.
The concept means Ultimate Reality. Don't be confused by the unrealities attached to God.
The Ultimate Reality means God, that is what the concept has always meant, and it is both a universal concept and one that has been understood as a concept for thousands of years. There is no benefit to denying this, and in every way it is harmful.
You may or may not care, but I think it is worth noting that people out of love for others have been killed and tortured to death over proclaiming this message.
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@janesix
Well, then you aren't actually respecting the concept. You are talking about something else when you use the word "God".
What other reason is there to do this but strife?
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@janesix
Whatever The Ultimate Reality actually is....
That is God.
So the point is that the existence of God is not actually something that should ever come into question.
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@Stephen
What would you say you are doing?
It sounds like you are asking something contextual. Paradise is Godliness with contentment. That is my answer. Perhaps you are thinking something different.
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@janesix
You could say that God is in everything and that everything has its existence in God. However, I wouldn't call a tree God, so I can't say God is everything. I also cannot say that the sum of everything is God, because if everything is destroyed, then God is nothing.
God comes before the universe, the universe exists within God. If there is a "multiverse" even, all of these worlds exist in God. If there is reality to something, it is because of God. If there is no reality to something, it doesn't exist.
If nobody believed in God, God would still exist. The Ultimate Reality is not contingent on anything else, everything is contingent on The Ultimate Reality.
I am a monotheist, I am expressing the monotheist position. But if I were to simplify the difference between "God is everything" and what I am saying, it is the difference between pantheism and panentheism.
I am not trying to be obscure, so if I am unclear, be patient with me as I will be patient with you. Clarity really is my intention.
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@secularmerlin
Well, unfortunately, neither of you have passed the kindergarten lesson, so all you get is what God means.
Since you can't even accept and go forward with that, you are both cursed to lean on your own understanding. Until that real humbling moment comes, I can't really do much else.
Life is a classroom. Eventually you both will get there, that is my hope.
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@Stephen
Let me ask you something now.
Why do you crusade against the faith?
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@Stephen
The scriptures are reliable for what their intended use is.
I would call paradise "Godliness with contentment".
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@secularmerlin
You want a grand unified theorem. Anything short of this is not an acceptable answer to you. You have made that clear.
Whatever Ultimate Truth is, that is, whatever fulfills that definition, is what Ultimate Truth is.
It's not that difficult to understand why I don't say anything else. It would certainly be haughty.
But I will say that this is what the concept of God means in theology. The Ultimate Reality.
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@janesix
That's unfortunate, because it is not my intent to mystify, but edify.
You believe the solar system exists. You believe the solar system is true.
You already believe in truth, so what is hard to understand about what I'm saying?
I find it difficult to believe you are earnestly trying to understand what I'm saying. Maybe it's too simple for you, who may be used to overcomplicating things.
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@Stephen
Why do you feel it is necessary for every account to be the same in scripture when scripture itself doesn't teach the idolatry of scripture?
It is good there are inconsistencies in scripture. Because Christians are supposed to worship THE TRUTH not writings.
The scriptures are intended to get people to this point and even guide people who are already at this point. The scriptures are for teaching, not to be taken as God.
So you are mistaken in believing that undermining scripture undermines true religion.
In doing what you are doing, you are actually missing the entire point of what scripture is teaching.
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@janesix
The state of being the case. Actuality. Reality. As it truth is.
The Truth.
If you know what this means, you know what God means.
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@janesix
The Ultimate Reality is not created.
If you know what Truth is, you know what The Ultimate Reality is. And it is by the spirit of Truth that this witness is made.
Father
Son
Holy Ghost
It is through this belief in the threeness that a confession of the Oneness of the creator of creation can be made with sincerity and truth.
How can you know God? Through a glass, dim and dark. A smudgey lense.
The realest existiest truest reality. God. Your relationship with God is through the medium of creation. You are in the meat suit.
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@janesix
Reality as it really truly is in its totality and completeness.
As opposed to
Reality as it looks, seems to be, or can be known to be.
The Ultimate reality.
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@secularmerlin
Gaming cause and effect to get good or bad results. Karma. Nothing fantastical.
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The way the Spaniards treated the Taino was really disgraceful. They were a very peaceful and timid people. They were also the tribe that made first contact with Columbus. He went back home and convinced the crown that they could easily conquer these people who didn't even have weapons and take their gold.
They came back, made slaves of them, would chop their hands off if they didn't work as hard as they liked, would smash babies, women, children... didn't matter. Executed the people in cruel ways. Destroyed their society as best they could. And this was a very peaceful tribe. These weren't maniacs like the Aztecs.
Oh yeah, and throughout this whole process left a very bad impression of Christianity on the people.
Bartolomé de las Casas is a bigger hero than Columbus.
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@secularmerlin
If you are going to play the karma game, there is no such thing as a purely "positive" action. There are "negative" and "positive" effects to every action we take. And so, true godliness is not a karma game. That goes as well for any "faith based system", or even little god that exists. For there to be life, something must die. For a new state in time to exist, the previous state in time must die.
Only by abiding in The Truth is this karma game conquered. If you lean on your own understanding, you are putting your faith in unreality. You are always wrong. Unreality is death. You see things as good and bad. Really though? It is what it is. Gain is not godliness. Godliness with contentment is great gain.
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It is impossible to demonstrate free will, because science has conclusively proven that there are always variables unaccounted for.
Things don't happen for no reason, and every single interpretation of science that leads to this conclusion inevitably comes from people who have a hard time admitting that they have no idea what is really going on.
Thats a really hard thing to do if you spentt your whole life building up this credibility that you are some kind of expert.
Superdeterminism
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@disgusted
I've told you several times, even in other topics that this isn't my argument. This is how you are interpreting my argument.
And if you are going to ignore what I say and play the part of the mocker, I will simply leave you to make your mindless inanities without my comment on them.
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@secularmerlin
Well, I say even worthless things have value if they exist. The fact that they have been identified even gives them value. Money? You know what it is.
But money, even if an abstract value has existence and a real tangible effect on the world. It is a part of physics now. And maybe it is mysterious and invisible to aliens looking at the planet from space, but it is a variable that has real tangible effect on the world. It exists, and it even has great influence.
Money is even god?
"a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship"
The worship of money gives it value. What are banks? Big old temples to mammon, eh? The effect money has seems pretty supernatural, after all, nearly all of its influence is in the realm of belief in it, and most its effects are indirect. Like I mentioned earlier, if aliens were to watch people, money might be imperceptible to them. It is strange doins.
"a person or thing of supreme value"
To some people, its all about the benjammins. People live their whole lives centered around money. There are certainly people who value money as being what is really valuable in the world.
"a powerful ruler"
There aren't many things in the world who have as much control and influence as money. Nations have destroyed eachother over money. Money runs people's lives.
Yeah, I'd say that money is a god, right up there with the other little "g" gods.
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@disgusted
Calling something The Ultimate Realoty doesn't make something The Ultimate Reality.
And that isn't my argument.
Calling something God doesn't make something God.
Your argument is really stupid.
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@eash
The Ultimate Reality is the same God. Don't believe me, ask a rabbi.
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@disgusted
The Ultimate Reality is God.
Not
Whatever you arbitrarily call The Ultimate Reality is The Ultimate Reality which is God.
And your argument is stupid, because my argument is not a language trick.
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@janesix
That isn't an argument, it's an assertion of definition and identity.
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God.
And here is another assertion. If you take God as being anything other than this, you are not talking about the God I believe. You are also not talking about The God that theology accepts. You are talking about something else.
So you can argue about the meanings of words all you like, but you would be the one who is in error, not me.
I know what Supreme Being means. I know what Ultimate Reality means. I know what The Truth means.
It means saying God doesn't exist is not a valid position. You are automatically wrong, and so is any argument, no matter how clever, that either builds off of or attempts to prove this ridiculous and patently false position.
And by the way, it is self defeating. You can't say that it is true that there is no truth. That is what you are quite literally doing if you say, "There is no God".
So believe me when I say this isn't something worth debating, because there is no argument against God. But if you don't understand what I'm telling you, go ahead and argue with futility. If you'd rather arbitrarily strive over the meanings of words, go ahead, but you are wrong. The only argument against God is to make God a god. An idol. A straw man. If you understood the concept, you'd see this very clearly.
And I would much rather see you confess The Truth than make a fool of yourself.
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@secularmerlin
No wait a second, I want my monies. What is intrinsic value? I mean, doesn't something existing have intrinsic value? Its there, that counts for something right?
I say money is valuable.
I mean, clearly its worth stuff.
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@disgusted
There is only one God. The Ultimate Reality is by definition one. Ultimate means there is one. There cannot be two.
You could say there are millions of realities. That would make more sense.
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@janesix
Because I know what a tree is. I know what a rock is. I know what a book is.
That is simply what God is. The Ultimate Reality. That is what the concept means. Can you think of anything greater and more true?
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What is money?
What has intrinsic value at all?
It was said that things that help us survive have intrinsic value. Isn't this a created. standard of value? Does that mean everything is valuable to Macgyver? How does money not help us survive.
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@disgusted
The world = everybody
Or
The World = everybody who fits into my confirmation bias
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@SkepticalOne
The Ultimate Reality is not a created thing.
The Ultimate Reality is God.
If you don't believe that the realest most true existiest reality exists... you don't really believe anything exists, that there is any truth, or that there is reality at all. The fact that you are having an experience at all disproves this handidly.
So the answer is you don't believe in God because you don't know what God is. I believe in God because I know what God is.
But maybe you aren't talking about God. If you are talking about gods, they are created things too.
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@Mdh2000
The Ultimate Reality is God. That is what it God means.
The Universe is defined as "the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated"
While the concept of "God" is a postulation, what it actually means is not something that is contingent on observation or postulation. Observation and postulation is contingent on it. If The Ultimate Reality is part of the universe, then it really isn't The Ultimate Reality, the universe would be. If the universe exists, it is because of Ultimate Reality.
Someone who takes the universe as being The Ultimate Reality is a pantheist. I am closer to a panentheist. Even if you take the universe as God, you still believe in God.
As far as me making claims of God being a creator or tgat there is a reality beyond what we observe, I don't see these as controversial. In fact, I find it puzzling that you would find this odd considering that things can be observed coming into being. There is clearly a reality beyond what we observe, as there are things we are not observing that exist.
Maybe you have a superstitious conception about what these things mean, because they very naturally come from what Ultimate Reality means.
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@Goldtop
Not only has any theist been able to answer this question with any sanity, they can't even support their claims that men were inspired by God. We can see how many of them fantasize about God in their own way, so it would stand to reason the authors of the Bible were very much like theists today, ignorant of the world around them with all their answers revolving around magic and delusion.The Bible is the word of con men, and not very bright or convincing men, much like the theists here.
I don't think this is the case when God is The Ultimate Reality, not merely what people think The Ultimate Reality is.
Maybe you are right there in the mud too.
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@Mdh2000
Also ultimte can mean last in a series. In which 'God' becomes the last reality rather than the 'realiest'. This is one reason the definition seems meaningless, the other is that we've no way of knowing there are multiple degrees of reality, which means ultimate reality is pretty meaningless as a definition. It presents no traits or concepts beyond the idea that it is real (it isn't even that clear on if it's the most real or simply last in a series of real things), at least the definition:
Yet God is not simply the last, but The First, The Last, and The Inbetween. So no, I am giving you the proper definition, the realest reality.
1(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.Gives clear traits.
The Supreme Being, which by the way means the same as Ultimate Reality if understood correctly(thats a hint), certainly is the creater and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority. The hardest one here to grasp might be moral authority, but that is because people don't see that moral authority comes from truth, not personal whim.
And yes, this is how the monotheist God is understood. The Supreme Being, that is, The Ultimate Reality. Highest Existence.
And every single one of your superstitions concerning God that you have expressed melts away in realizing the identity of God. That might also be a hard one to grasp where here in recent times self declaration is seen as proof of identity. God realliy Is what God Is. The Ultimate Reality.
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@Mdh2000
You are fundamentally off in your thinking because you think I'm twisting language to make God The Truth. That is what the concept refers to. Every atheist argument is contingent on making God something other than what God is. A little "g" god. It is a strawman. A false god. A little statue, a fetish you can smash against the ground.
The point is not to know God entirely, but to recognize what you are relating to. Surely you can see the difference between a life focused on playing videogames, a life focused on getting laid, a life focused on making tons of money. If your life is about better abiding in Truth, certain natural transformative things will happen in your life very naturally.
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