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Private or oublic, child sacrifice is an abomination.
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@3RU7AL
Not at all, because we certainly believe there is heaven and hell. If fear of hell or promise of paradise is what some peopke need in order to take God seriously, I can't say I am one to judge. It may be a stepping stone for them to love God for who God is.
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@Harikrish
If it was the case that scriptures are not interpreted, there wouldn't be thousands of heresies as you admit that all claim scripture and run away with a foreign gospel.
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@3RU7AL
Human empathy only goes as far as your ability to emphasis.
Apparations of the mind cannot be God, as they are a contingent existence.
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@3RU7AL
You yourself do not believe this, so why post it forward?
If God so wills that I be cast into the fire, I accept God's judgment as righteous.
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@Harikrish
Come on, even you are not so base as to be unaware that you are peddling nonsense. We of course do not believe that Jesus Christ was demon possessed.
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@Harikrish
I am aware of so many of my sins and shortcomings. How much more am I unaware of?
I pray aloud,
"In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Glory to thee, our God, glory to thee.
O heavenly King, O Comforter, the Spirit of truth, who art in all places and fillest all things; Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come and dwell in us and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O gracious Lord.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen."
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@Harikrish
You don't even believe your arguments. You know they are dishonest. You do realize that the gospels were written by the church right? It doesn't even make sense that they would mean what you are trying to pull from them.
I believe you are the one presenting alternate falsehoods as fact.
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@Harikrish
Just so you are aware, it is really easy to do what you are doing. If someone wanted to take, say, your scriptures and interpret them out of context in order to paint a picture that isn't true, they could.
We The Orthodox Church consider ourselves the true successors of Israel. The Church is Israel. You mock these many denominations, but we do not believe in denominations. You are either with The Apostolic Orthodox and Catholic Church or you are heterodox.
The Church since the very beginning has put a great deal more emphasis on the typological interpretation of scripture. One thing that would be beneficial for you to understand is that while we certainly venerate scripture and consider it among the highest authorities in The Church, scripture is only rightly interpreted through The Church. You don't know what we use scripture for. Your interpretations simply can't be valid, because you do not have The Holy Spirit as your helper. You do not have the grace of The Church.
You can take offense, but this is what we believe. I certainly know better what I have faith in than someone who has never shared my faith.
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@3RU7AL
If it is really all just a joke to you, you are welcome to try that one at the resurrection before the dread judgement seat of Christ.
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@3RU7AL
That was Saint Basil the great, not me. He is a church father. I am certain if you were more familiar with the writings of the church, you would find a great deal more that is edifying in its profundity.
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@Harikrish
No, I don't respect your self declaration. You are obviously a liar.
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@Harikrish
You are deserving of mockery.
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@Harikrish
No, I am mocking you for expecting.me to believe your self declarations in the face.of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
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@Harikrish
Yes, and everyone with an iphone is a photographer.
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@Harikrish
You say I can not.
And I won't, not because I can't, but because you have no argument.
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@Harikrish
The teachings of the church, which certainly have more authority than someone who only studies with the intent to refute.
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@Harikrish
I am not going to sort through the skeptics annotated bible for you, especially since you are not interested in being corrected.
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@3RU7AL
There are 3 types of believers according to Saint Basil.
Those who are motivated by fear of hell are like slaves.
Those who are motivated by reward of heaven are like mercenaries.
Then there are those who are motivated by love of God, these are as children of God.
So it is wrong to say we simlly act out of fear of damnnation.
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@Harikrish
As I said, I don't really respect your opinions concerning the faith. Besides being uneducated, you are not approaching the matter with a pure heart.
You have no hope coming to understand the faith this way. You also have no hope of persuading me this way.
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@Harikrish
I'm afraid your opinion comes from your inadequate education concerning our faith.
You are also going back to polemics.
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@secularmerlin
I don't see constructive criticism. I see someone trying to appear pithy but coming off as unjustifiably arrogant and condescending.
I understand you interpreting my words as meaningless is consistent with your nihilism.
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A good end achieved by bad means is not functionally the same as a good end achieved by good means.
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@secularmerlin
What ought you do?
If you love The Truth, there is really only one way. The right way. Our inability to perfectly execute the right way in no way compromises the perfection of The Truth.
What ought we do?
Abide in The Truth. Align our hearts and mind to it. If you love The Truth, respect nature as coming from it. See man as being made in the image of it. Love. Let that love purify you to be even more effective at it.
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@Melcharaz
I would say that Christ was Melchisedec, is Melchisedec, and will forever be Melchisedec. The Eternal Melchisedec.
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@3RU7AL
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."
It is the heart that God looks at. It is easy to say, "I identify as ___", but true identity is not a matter of self identification or group association. There are and will be many who identify as the right thing and belong to the right group who will in their hearts be wicked and defiled. It is no strange thing.
In spirit and in truth.
Is someone who feeds and clothes the hungry and poor in a spirit of love really functionally the same as someone who feeds and clothes the hungry and poor in a spirit of bitterness? You might say, "Yes, the poor and hungry and clothed and fed", but don't you have to ignore an awful lot of what is really going on to come to that conclusion?
An atheist lacks belief in or denies the existence of God or gods.
A deist accepts the existence of God or gods.
Say the God the deist believes in is The Ultimate Reality.
Say the atheist outright denies the existence of the deist's God.
How can you say that belief or outright denial of The Truth doesn't have a profound effect on the psychology of an individual? Even if you can't see it, you must admit it is a sensible hypothesis.
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God doesn't lie, God is The Truth. If you believe you see any falsehood in The Truth, what you are truly seeing is a smudge on your lens.
1. Eternity is timeless. Best prepare in this life by practicing thanksgiving and being grateful for what you have. Thank God in every situation. See every experience as a way to draw closer to God. Even trials and hardships are opportunities to draw closer to God. You have this life to prepare yourself for the resurrection and the dread judgement seat of Christ. Be purified in this life, and the hereafter will be a lot better. It is the same light of God's glory that is paradise for the saints, and torment for the wicked. Godliness with contentment is great gain.
1. Eternity is timeless. Best prepare in this life by practicing thanksgiving and being grateful for what you have. Thank God in every situation. See every experience as a way to draw closer to God. Even trials and hardships are opportunities to draw closer to God. You have this life to prepare yourself for the resurrection and the dread judgement seat of Christ. Be purified in this life, and the hereafter will be a lot better. It is the same light of God's glory that is paradise for the saints, and torment for the wicked. Godliness with contentment is great gain.
2. What makes a human is that a human is made in the image of God. You are not the sin that cakes over that image as dust. Do not identify with your sin anymore than you identify the dust on a portrait. If you are an orthodox Christian, your identity is in Christ, and you as a living icon of Christ must be diligent to keep yourself free of dust in order not to obscure the Christ in you.
After the resurrection and judgement, there is the death of death itself. All as it Truly Is will be revealed. You will know even as you are known.
3. The best way to cope with death is say in your heart, "God, no matter what you do to me, whether you find me worthy of paradise or not, I accept your judgement as righteous and surrender myself to your love.".
4. Jesus Christ
5. "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
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@bsh1
If The Truth is the greatest good, it should be evident that the world is exactly as it should be. It is perfect.
If you understand morality as abiding in The Truth, well then what is truly moral is a very personal walk of keeping it real.
I would say that it is preferable to concentrate on what you can do in your own life, because really that is what you have control over. Often times the moral issues we have with the world are projections of our own moral inadequacy
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@bsh1
Not only would I say that perfection and morality can exist, I would say that without perfection, there is no morality at all.
Without Ultimate Reality, that is, perfection, the very concept of morality becomes arbitrary.
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@Harikrish
My Presbyter is a biblical scholar. He actually wrote the commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews in The Orthodox Study Bible(A bible with commentary that works as a good way to introduce protestants to Orthodoxy)
But as I said, your education is outside The Apostolic Church. That makes it rather worthless.
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@Harikrish
Hinduism is a religion that focuses on spirituality and personal development and is not dependent on a benevolent creator. The checks and balances are built into ones Karma (self accountability) and not dictated by some external force or being. The goal is enlightenment and the highest achievement is spiritual bliss which is the transcendental conquering of physical and material desires that are only distraction or insatiable illusions. One achieves Nirvana if successful and breaks away from the cycle of rebirths (Samsara). Or the process known as reincarnations is repeated according to ones Karma at each cycle
The goal of Orthodox Christianity is theosis, which is how we understand salvation. That is, we become partakers of the divine nature and in cooperating and abiding with the divine uncreated energy of God that fills all things, we are united to divinity. This is complete after our time in this world. In this world we become co-workers with God as living icons of The Truth. Our God is The Truth. That being the case, a big part of our discipline has to do with freeing ourselves of prelest, or delusion. We recognize that the pure in heart see God, and so our discipline involves the cleansing of the nous of the influences and passions that lead us into delusion or obscure the Image of God in us.
I am sure you can at least see here that we do have some in common. There is also much that is different.
Reincarnation simply does not fit into our eschatology, as there is no need for multiple lives. Everything is revealed as it is in eternity, and the very same light of Truth that is paradise to those who abided in The Truth is the fiery torment that afflicts those who have lived a life in defiance of The Truth.
We would also say that the idea that one can save themselves is prelest, because we understand that The Truth is what saves and liberates, not our own will. We see ourselves as having a personal relationship with The Truth, and so we say that The Truth is what cleanses us, not our own efforts. That said, we still play a part in this through what we call synergy. That is, cooperation with this divine energy. All Orthodox Christians are called to be ascetics.
Though there are 30,000+ nominally Christian denominations, the oldest creeds of the church state a belief in "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church". That very Church is around today in the form of The Orthodox Catholic Church. What I am really saying here is that of these 30,000+ nominally Christian churches, there is only one Church that can legitimately be called Christian and Orthodox, and this is something that is easily confirmed in studying the history of the church.
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@3RU7AL
Since at least the 1800s, there has been a strong effort in academia to reduce Christianity to a type of moral pietism. Even to take other faiths, find this common ground, and then assume this common ground is really the whole point of all religion and faith.
It isn't, but at least we all agree we should deal justly with one another. Well, that isn't true. We don't all agree. The love that Christ taught was to be universally applied though, as was shown in the parable of the good Samaritan, who despite belonging to a faith considered heretical by the Jews, exhibited a righteousness that surpassed that of those who were supposed to have the correct faith.
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@Harikrish
I am afraid you speak forom a position of ignorance, not of any deep insight.
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@Harikrish
I don't really respect your opinions about the bible or Christianity. The fact that, being uneducated, you take yourself as an educator makes you somewhat unlikable.
"the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."
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@Harikrish
I would rather say that you are not going to deceive me on matters concerning my faith. I can see very clearly that you don't really understand it.
That being the case, I would rather hear about your faith. I am more interested in finding a common understanding than polemics.
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@Harikrish
I don't honor your credentials as anything other than self declaration.
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@Harikrish
As I have said before, polemicists are rarely likeable fellows.
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@Harikrish
I read the entire bible straight through at least once this year. I actually know the bible.pretty well.
While The Pope was burning people at the stake for translating the bible into common vernacular, the Orthodox Church has literally invented written languages that are stilll widely used today in order to make the Bible readable.
The ancient patriarchates each used a different language in Church. In Antioch, Syriac. In Egypt, Coptic. In Rome, Latin. In Constantinople, Greek.
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@Harikrish
It would be more edifying to find common understanding than attempt to "treat" eachother.
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@Harikrish
"light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
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@Harikrish
Being made in God's image has little to do with the physical appearance of a man. It hss more to do with the nous.
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@Harikrish
"Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
Sounds pretty likable to me.
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@Harikrish
No Orthodox would goo to you for advise, you are obviously not a Christian.
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@Harikrish
It certainly is your opinion, and it is not our faith.
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@Harikrish
Well, that is your opinion, but it isn't our faith.
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@Harikrish
That is all really fine, but given our prior discussions, I don't believe you are receptive to having you misconceptions about the faith corrected.
As you are outside the church, I can not really respect yiur interpretatikns of scripture as valid. It really matters not how clever you can get.
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