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@keithprosser
Nous like a moose.
If you hear it pronounced any other way, know that isn't how it is pronounced in Greek, and it is a Greek word.
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@Melcharaz
If it is not done in Spirit and Truth, it is vain repetition.
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@3RU7AL
I do my best to make it easy, but it should be evident that I am not believed regardless.
That is why it is what it is.
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@3RU7AL
It always helps if something makes sense right?
I had to give a lot of charity at first. It wss a process.
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@3RU7AL
It is a part of our church tradition. That is why we use it.
I have have actually studied religion pretty extensively, and I was a Vedantist before becoming Christian. I was also a Buddhist. A chaos magician. Into the occult. Before all of that, I was a hard skeptic, fancied myself scientific, even an atheist. I performed a lot of experiments.
Why am I an Orthodox Christian now? Because I recognize it as the only enlightened form of Christianity, the original form of Christianity, and I respect its holy orders. The writing output of the faith is consistently high quality. I recognize it as what it is, Truth worship.
And I also understand why it takes the form it does.
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@Ramshutu
I think that is an opinion that comes from both a narrow understanding of what cybernetics actually is along with superstitious ideas about what soul means. What spirituality is.
But let me correct your misconception. The soul is the nous or intellect.
Spirituality to us Orthodox is the purifying of the intellect through the examining of the influences, tugs, pulls, motivations on our intellect that keep us from loving The Truth purely. It is the cleansing of the tool we are using to measure so to speak.
So of a surety, we are speaking of that which is real.
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@3RU7AL
I think that is a very presumptuous question, because we Orthodox do not put nearly as much emphasis on the bible as protestants do. They do this because they are trying to recreate the church from the bible. We are the church, and we never went away. We did not create the church from the bible. We wrote the bible.
And truly, we read more scripture in our services than any protestant church I have ever been to, but we know what it is used for, and they don't.
The bible is a part of our church tradition. We use the scriptures in our liturgy. That isn't a judgement call on any other writings.
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@janesix
It is simply a matter of recognizing the soul as the nous and then realizing that the nous must exist as our experience proves very solidly.
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@Ramshutu
There is no compelling evidence for the existence of a soul, or that there is a deeper truth to spirituality. In fact, the evidence appears to suggest otherwise given the studies into just those things
If this was actually the case, cybernetics wouldn't be considered a legitimate area of research.
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Or as we Orthodox say in our daily prayers...
"O Heavenly King, Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere present and fillest all things, the Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come, and abide in us, and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O Good One."
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@Snoopy
As I live in Texas, it is very difficult to deny my relationship with the sun, which in the summer seems to do a loop in the sky before setting.
If I did not respect the sun, I wouldn't take every opportunity available to pass through the shade while out walking.
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@3RU7AL
Well, I think you will find if you were to study the writings of the church that we have always understood God as being reality as it truly is, the truth, etc.
And this understanding is consistent with our discipline. After all, if we love The Truth above all things, purifying the intellect is a natural expression of this.
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@Melcharaz
I wouldn't dispute you on this.
How can one do these things unless the spirit of truth strengthens?
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@Melcharaz
Blessing those who curse you, loving your enemies, forgiving those who offend you. This is another attitude adjustment that works a great deal on transforming one's heart in a truly miraculous way.
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@keithprosser
There is no Islamic priesthood in the orthodox sense. Islam is about as anarchistic as protestantism when it comes to religious leadership.
That being the case, there is plenty of room to allow so called "extremists" to get away with what they do.
I would like to again relay this story of my Bishop who went to the middle east for his education. He was speaking to an Imam, and was telling him that there were good Muslims in The United States, even a town completely populated by Muslims with a giant mosque and everything. The response he got from the Imam was shocking. "They were not good Muslims. If they were good Muslims, they would have taken up arms and subjugated the state by now."
Whether or not this is orthodox Muslim teaching is debatable I'm sure, but the fact is that these people are allowed to act as spiritual fathers is aided by the fact that Islam is not really well organized as a religion.
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@3RU7AL
They mean the same thing.
In fact, "The Ultimate Reality" is a legitimate English translation of the meaning of that name.
In the Greek it is "ειμι ο ων" which translates into English roughly as "I am who Exists".
So we have always understood God as The Ultimate Reality. This is effectively God's name in English.
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@3RU7AL
I think it would make more sense for you to humble yourself and make a sincere effort to be educated in what it is we actually believe, as we have thousands of years more experience in this matter and the oldest continuous organization on the planet.
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@3RU7AL
You admit that The Ultimate Reality is God.
There is only One Ultimate Reality, and a conception of God is not God.
Deism is simply the belief that God exists. That is the simplest meaning of the word.
As you admit God is The Ultimste Reality, you are a theist, because God is THE IS. Get it?
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@Yassine
A closer examination of histoory will show that often times the same institutions that would persecute pagans in the name of Christ also made many Christian martyrs.
These institutions are not The Church, which does not exercise secular authority.
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Shouldn't you know these things yourself? I don't need to ask a bishop, I have looked into it & realized there is no such thing.
The Orthodox Catholic Church is the historical Church, and I simply don't accept you disputing what everyone else accepts as being reality. Even nominal Christians who are functionally atheists and do not believe in Apostolic succession as being important admit that we have it. From the earliest days of the church, it was considered a way of distinguishing the church from different heresies.
There is certainly an apostolic succession in the church, and I don't know constitutes proof for you. If the fact that the church has had a continuous existence is not enough for you, I don't know what is.
- I'm not sure what this means. Is God an energy?
There is a difference between God's essence and God's energy. God's essence is The Ultimate Reality, and what that truly Is. God's energy is the presence of God in creation. It is this energy that through cooperation with we can come to abide in God's Word and Spirit.
- Doesn't your church believe God is the original author of the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit? How is that idolatry?
The bible was written by men inspired by The Holy Spirit. This is not the same as being dictated by God. It is idolatry because it is calling a book The Word of God when the book itself says that The Word of God is eternal, pre-eternal even, One in essence with God, being God, and that which we are saved by. The Word of God is Jesus Christ. Not the Jesus Christ you know, for you only know the human nature of Christ. You do not know The Divine, The Word of God being made flesh, dwelling among us.
- So Jesus become creation while still being divine? That's a strict contradiction. Creation & divine are mutually exclusive.
United in the hypostasis or divine Person of The Son are two distinct physis or natures. To quote the Athanasian creed...
"He is God from the essence of the Father, begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity. Although he is God and human, yet Christ is not two, but one. He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself. He is one, certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person. For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human."
- What does incarnation have to do with all that?
If The Truth is not somehow present in creation, in no way could the prophets witness it.
- They almost do, yet they don't consider their Imam divine, which is my point. Some Shia believe God created all things through their imams & for them. Why are they believing this? It's not in the Quran. There is no mention of any of this in the Quran, yet they believe it. People tend to worship those they deeply love, & ascribe divine attributes to them.
We certainly venerate saints, but we do not give them the honor that is due to God alone. We venerate them for the Christ that is in them, as they are icons of Christ.
Jesus Christ is not simply a saint. Jesus Christ is God with Us.
Jesus prayed, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."
Saint Peter wrote, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
And Saint Athanasius wrote, "That God became man that man might become God"
Salvation to us is theosis, being united to God through union with The Son. For Jesus Christ is The Only Begotten Son, existing before all ages as The Word of God, but we are united to Him through adoption as children of God. This is salvation, for even as The Prophet Isaiah spoke,
"All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
And it is only by and through The Word of God that there is salvation.
And truly, the name "Jesus" even means "God's Salvation".
Salvation is unity with Jesus Christ to the glory of God The Father by The Holy Spirit.
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@3RU7AL
According to your understanding.
But believing that God exists is the opposite position that God does not exist.
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Adjusting ones attitude from that of envy to thanksgiving can have a profound transformative effect on one's life.
Indeed, our mystery of the eucharist even means "thanksgiving".
Make every day thanksgiving.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
It takes a certain level of trust and humility to accept guidance.
What can I do? I can point you to The True Church. That is all I can do. Point.
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@3RU7AL
We do not acknowledge any other church as being legitimately Christian, because our creed states that there is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
It is a bothersome thing that the heretics confuse everyone concerning what The Church teaches. In a way, it is as if the ground is poisoned before we can plant our seeds.
Yet, even these heterodox Christians gather for the church in the end. There are many of them who end up becoming Orthodox converts. Myself even being an example.
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@3RU7AL
If you believe God exists, you should not be offended when I say atheism is not an intellectually defensible position.
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- Yes, so you keep mentioning. Where is this unbroken chain? The Catholic Church had to change its narrative when it was found out that their claimed chain is fictitious, same for all the other claims. Please show me a verifiable unbroken chain from Jesus (pbuh) of your church.
I willl tell you the same thing. Go to a bishop. If you are too scared to set foot in an Orthodox Church, know that you won't burst into flames.
Creator being distinct from creation means there is no part of creator in creation.
The divide between creation and The Uncreated is of essence. God is certainly present in creation by His energies.
- What is divine energy? Does this notion even exist in your Bible?
I will use a quote from a modern Bishop I think is good..
"God in his entirety is completely present in each of his divine energies. Thus the essence-energies distinction is a way of stating simultaneously that the whole God is inaccessible, and that the whole God in his outgoing love has rendered himself accessible to man." -Kallistos Ware
You are going to find examples in the Bible sure, but this type of language wasn't fleshed out entirely until the rise of certain heresies made it necessary to explain what the Church has always believed.
We are not like you Muslims who believe that your Koran was dictated by God. In fact, to say the bible is like that would be the heresy of bibliolatry, which we would consider an idolatry.
Jesus (pbuh) is a body, a body is a contingent being, it can not possibly be divine. That's like saying God is not-God. & yes, they are all creation of the Creator, He is inconceivable, "whatever image comes to your mind, God is not it". If you can perceive God, then he is not God anymore, for perception implies contingency & limitation. God can not be contingent or limited, for he is a necessary uncaused being.
You are right thst God is inconceivable. You are right that God is non-contingent. You are right that an image you have in your head of God is not God, for God is not a conception. You are right these things.
What you sre mistaken about is the identity of Jesus Christ, who existed before all things and became creation for oursake, never sacrificing His divinity.
Now if you deny the incarnation, you deny all the prophets. You also deny thst God can be witnessed in the things that are made.
- What are you quoting? This sounds a lot like what some Shia believe about their imam....
This is Saint Paul and Saint Timothy's letter to the Church of Colossae.
The Shia are making their Imam out to be Christ.
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@3RU7AL
Nonsense. As long as you make God anything other than The Ultimate Reality, you prove what I am saying is true.
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@Yassine
The Church certainly does not condone the killing of others for their beliefs. It is built into the faith that we prefer to patiently wait in hopes that they are lead to repentance.
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@zedvictor4
Donald Trump is obviously not anti-immigrant, he has a problem with illegal immigration. Political slander obscures this issue.
And if you don't like this country, maybee you should go somewhere else. No one is forcing you to stay, and no one is forcing you to leave.
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@RationalMadman
The Ultimate Reality is exactly what it is.
And God is not anything less than that.
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@Melcharaz
Since he is not with The Church, I am not terribly interested.
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@Melcharaz
Why are you telling me about James White?
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@Melcharaz
Calvin's theology is based off of misinterpretations of Saint Augustine and besides is not actually in line with what the majority of the Church fathers taught.
The Church understands the faith very differently.
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@Melcharaz
I am not really familiar with him.
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@RationalMadman
God is clothed in power and majesty.
Clothed.
The Ultimate Reality is God. Personality is as the power and majesty that God is clothed in.
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@Melcharaz
Our New Testament Canon is identical to what the protestants and Roman Catholics use. Our Old Testament is pretty much whatever was in the septuigant.
So yes, we do have "deuterocanical" books in our Old Testament.
There are also books that we like that did not make the canon of scripture, the canon being mainly what is acceptable for liturgical use. An example of one of these books that is not in the canon but was pretty popular with the church fathers are the books of Enoch.
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@Fallaneze
I whole heartedly disagree.
The Ultimate Reality by necessity exists. The position that there is no ultimate reality has no ground to stand on.
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@Melcharaz
Yeah, we do not agree with the method of textual criticism. It is kind of a protestant thing.
That said, the Textus receptus is simply CLOSER to our texts. There are differences. We do not have the johanian comma for example in our texts. I wouldn't say there is anything theologically wrong with that addition, but it is not in our texts.
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@RationalMadman
Obviously when it comes to Christianity, I don't respect anything other than The Orthodox position, because it isn't even really Christian if it isn't Orthodox.
I would suggest you avoid making wild theories about Christianity if you don't want to hear "That is not what the church teaches".
I would suggest you avoid making wild theories about Christianity if you don't want to hear "That is not what the church teaches".
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I could definitely go a step further with you than agree to disagree.
But of course, the nature of this condition is self perpetuating until the one who is afflicted recognizes that they have it and wishes to be rid of it.
I would happily have private conversations with you if I wasn't blocked by you.
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Don't be scared. Go into an Orthodox Church and talk with the priest. The ones who have been at it for a while have probably heard everything. You don't have to meet me at all. You can't expect the priest to come to you here, it just doesn't work like that. I'm sure you can get one to meet with you for coffee, tea, or lunch.
But still, better for you to forget everything you think you know, because it will get in the way. It is bad theology. It is certainly an expression of neognosticism. And that is the point. You aren't going to find anyone who has the same full theory, because neognosticism at the core is faith in what is falsely called knowledge. One's own understanding.
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@keithprosser
Maybe those scmucks will get state enforced anarchy right the next time!
As The Orthodox Church is a hierarchical church, it is evil from the communist worldview.
And 3% is not an accurate number as far as atheists in this country. America is very very pagan. Communism is popular enough, but more importantly, it is influential. Communist uprisings rarely if ever the manifestation of the will of the majority. Communists simply seize power.
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You aren't going to get a good answer because nobody believes what you are talking about except you.
That is one of the distinguishing characteristics of neognosticism and even its ancient precedent. You will not find any who agree with each other.
If your religious education comes from YouTube, you will likely have neognostic tendencies.
My suggestion to you would be to forget everything you think you know, and go to the legitimate priesthood of The Orthodox Church to help you in your education.
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I'm sorry, this racist crap is an issue close to my heart.
Trump does not come off as racist to me.
You know who comes off as racist to me? Democrats when they say things like "the black vote" or "the black communities opinion" etc.
Or worse yet, that if you don't vote democrat you are a house nigger or an uncle Tom. Or that if you speak with good diction you are talking white. Or how about associating blackness with low life culture?
Yeah, democrats have always come off as more racist to me. Apparently requiring an ID to vote is racist because I guess black people are too stupid to get identification.
Really, it is obvious to me thst democrats are actually the white supremacists, and they think that blacks need their special treatment, because hey oh, blacks weren't born with the innate privledge of being so white and superior.
Don't get me wrong, racism is a real thing. But the ones who talk about race the most are the ones who seem to have the biggest issue with it.
Donald Trump? I don't believe he is racist.
But I said it before, and I'll say it again. The best argument for Donald Trump being racist is thst the party that created the KKK insists that he is.
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I got a tattoo when I was younger, back in my train hoppin whiskey drinking rock n roll days. The bizarrest thing happened. My body eventually rejected the tattoo.
I took it as a sign that I shouldn't get tattoos.
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@Dr.Franklin
We have a retired Romanian priest at our parish. That church was hit really hard during the soviet persecution of the church.
We don't dislike communism and atheism for no good reason. The propaganda that soviets used sounds exactly like what atheists in America use as propaganda. If they gained the government, and they are certainly gunning for it, I have no doubt that they will persecute the church. They will paint us as evil and mentally ill. They will think they are doing humanity a service.
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@Dr.Franklin
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@Deb-8-a-bull
The music, like the icons and other such things, is how some people learn so we have it there for that. In fact, our liturgy is almost entirely sung which makes it easier to memorize.
Certain times of the year have certain themes which repeat during the week that tie in to what is going on.
We go by a liturgical year, which starts on September 1st.
Another thing the music does is establish an atmosphere of reverence.
We do not normally use musical instruments for liturgy. Our liturgical music is primarily vocal. We have 2 singing styles. Choir singing and chanting. Choir singing tends to be more complicated in its layers but the chanting is often very melodic.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Thomas doesn't go to church, he is an atheist caricature of their twisted perception of what a.Christian looks like.
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That is good enough reason to be skeptical of atheism. Behind all the sophistry, it is nihilism, pure and simple. The denial of Truth itself.
And it stands to reason, and is even proven time and time again that the atheist has noo other argument other than to twist and pervert langusge to conform to their own superstitions. This is the type of arbitrariness that can even be predicted simply on knowing what an atheist is. A nihilist, a denier of truth itself. Their arguments are a matter of what is convenient, what they believe will sound the most convincing to the hearers. They have no real weight.
For no argument against God can stand, and at best an atheist can only disprove a little god of their own conception, but not The One True God. The Supreme and Ultimate Reality. The very God that existence itself proves.
And they would rather deficate on their ancestors and the billions living today who believe in God in their pursuit of vanity and chaos than admit what is obvious. That God exists or it isn't God.
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