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@Discipulus_Didicit
I sent it to him.
I recommend the book that it is an excerpt from, I read it last week. Very good read.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
We certainly do not hate atheists. It would be a lie to say that atheism and nihilism were not fundamentally satanic. We certainly do not advocate genocide, and our holy book is not yours to interpret. It is ours. We don't believe in genocide.
And I am not calling you genocidal, though I have little doubt that if an atheistic socialist government came into power they would persecute the church, as socialists have always been very anti-religious. It has nothing to do with you personally, it is built into it. Every layer of it.
Fyi though, Orthodox Christianity is a very small minority in the US. What you know as Christianity is not what we know as Christianity.
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@BrutalTruth
If there is a way, it is not through the acquisition of facts, trivia, and knowledge, but through the cleansing of ones heart and mind. Through the purification of the nous.
And we Orthodox Christians know this to be the case, and that is what we teach.
The Absolute Truth is what we call God.
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@keithprosser
It really goes deeper than that.
We suffer for the sake of The Truth.
Because we know The Truth is Salvation.
The Truth is rejected. Those who reject The Truth place their faith in lying vanities, and thus forsakes their own salvation.
What am I doing? Giving good news to those who believe, and a warning to those who reject. To those who reject, you are making a very big mistake.
And fewer things fortify one's faith like seeing how people reject The Truth. If it was not even known that I was a Christian, people would still reject The Truth. I know, because I have done many experiments that have proven this very conclusively to me.
Besides that, what have I been saying this whole time?
Love The Ultimate Reality in Spirit and in Truth. Not through the acquisition of facts, trivia, and knowledge, but through the purifying of one's heart, mind, and intentions. Through the cleansing of the nous.
How can there be any doubt that this is true religion? Yet every one of you prefer your darkness to the light. To your own condemnation, and one that you bring on yourselves. Do not blame God, who has given you many warnings and has freely offered salvation to all those who turn to Him.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Nonsense. No more than any Muslim American should "have to say" that they don't support the activities of ISIS. To assume that someone must by default be in support of any extremism which they have not specifically denounced is laughably absurd and allows the perfect breeding ground for the type of propaganda that feeds into the notions of people like Mopac, P-Witch, and others that entire groups of people ought to be demonized and treated as outcasts
Demonizing people is not what Orthodox Christians do. We are taught to love our enemies and to bless those that persecute us. We are against coercion and the use of violence.
And a saint would sooner be executed as a witness than lift a hand against his or her accusers.
So you do not understand our way, and that is why I am here, to correct these misconceptions.
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@Castin
There can be no compromise in The Truth.
They do not reject me, they reject The Truth.
Prophecy makes it very clear that what I am getting here is to be expected. If I was a perfect person who never erred, the response would be the same.
The problem is not me.
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@BrutalTruth
If it is true that there are no absolute truths, that means that it is an absolute truth that there are no absolute truths.
It doesn't make sense for there to be no absolute truth.
You don't have to know absolute truth to know that it exists.
Does that make sense?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
As long as you keep adding to what I say while insinuating that I am being deceitful, I have no further questions for you.
If you are going to be respectful and take this discussion seriously, I will continue.
But I will say this. From my worldview, there are no atheists, only those who are in denial of their gods. From my vantage point, you saying you have no gods isn't much different than a man claiming to be a woman.
I know it is 2019, but self declaration is not proof of identity.
I will grant that you believe you are an atheist. I am not calling you a murderer. I am engaging you out of love, no other reason. If you don't believe me, well, I can't help that. I love you anyway. That is why I don't want you to remain ignorant of these things. It is the most important thing.
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@BrutalTruth
So you don't believe in absolute truth? Are you a nihilist?
Just trying to get where you are coming from.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
From the directions on how to use the dictionary...
A lightface colon following a definition and immediately preceding two or more subsenses indicates that the subsenses are subsumed by the preceding definitionThe word as may or may not follow the lightface colon. Its presence indicates that the following subsenses are typical or significant examples. Its absence indicates that the subsenses which follow are exhaustive.
So in case you don't understand what that means, God with a capital G means The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
The Oxford uses the term "Supreme Being"
That means the same thing as "Ultimate Reality" if you have a proper understanding.
But beyond all of this dictionary stuff, my faith is older than the English language, and I know what we believe pretty well from studying not only scripture, but the writings of our saints and church fathers. I know what I believe in.
Without a doubt, God is The Ultimate Reality, and the saints and church fathers knew this very well. None of our discipline makes any sense without understanding God as The Truth.
So believe me, it is a waste of time to make a semantic argument with me, because I know what I am talking about. I am here to help you understand what I am talking about.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Considering atheistic governments have martyred over 20 million Orthodox Christians in the lasy century, I don't think my feelings are weird.
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@BrutalTruth
If you don't accept the definition then we aren't talking about the same thing.
This is common sense.
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I am not mad at any of these people. I feel very sincere pain. I see children destroying themselves, and laughing while they are doing it.
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Atheist arguments are contingent on bad language. That is why they can only play semantic games and mock those who point out that none of their arguments stand when the light of truth is shed on them.
And it can be plainly seen that these people don't care about the truth, they only care about appearances. That is why they refuse to accept that what I am saying is completely reasonable. They won't even acknowledge that. They think that if you don't understand as they do that you are stupid. It should be apparent to anyone with discernment that this comes from hubris, not any love of the truth or any love of the person they are speaking to.
I am subjecting myself to this out of love. If I had as negative a view of these people as they had of me, I would not waste my time trying to convince them of anything. Arguing gives me no pleasure.
Rather than understand, they prefer to condemn. I do not condemn them. I suffer for their sakes. They condemn me and my people.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You know, just because it is news to you that this is always what the church has understood God to be doesn't mean that it is the arbitrary thing you are making it.
You are essentially making fun of me for telling you the truth.
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@BrutalTruth
Needless to say, I feel pretty secure over here havong the dictionary on my side.
You have a non argument.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Ok then, so I would tell you one of two things.
If you are saying that the universe is the one reality, you would be a pantheist. That means your conception of God is the universe.
If you are saying that the one reality is the universe and anything that is outside of it if there is such a thing, you would be a panentheist. That means that your conception of God is the universe and if there is anything outside the universe as well.
So you do believe in God, though you would not use those words. Neither do we have the same conception of God.
Could you make sense of that for me please?
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@BrutalTruth
The reason why the only thing you get from me is the dictionary has to do with the fact that you are arrogant and don't deserve anything else.
This is the easiest way to demonstrate that you are unreasonable.
Why?
You don't want to talk about the same thing as me.
So your fallacies are...
Invincible ignorance
Strawman
Fallacy misidentification
Now go on and keep pounding your chest like a gorrilla. Maybe some child will find you impressive.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You know, I am trying to help you understand something, but if you are going to make a mockery of this discussion, we don't have to waste our time with it.
And one of those things th as t I am trying to help you understand is that you do in fact believe in the existence of ultimate reality. You believe there is one reality, that by definition is a believe in ultimate reality. That which is ultimately real. These other realities you are in denial of? They aren't ultimately real. You believe in the one ultimate reality.
And no, I am not saying at all that you believe the same thing I do. If you would cooperate, this will become more apparent.
So would you say the universe is this one reality?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
So you don't believe that this one reality is ultimately real?
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@keithprosser
And so Jesus said in his sermon on the mount(Matthew 5, 6, and 7)..
"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."
Having the right information just isn't going to do it. I do know that seeing something differently can get one to take the subject matter more seriously. It wasn't until I came across information that contradicted what I thought I already knew that I decided to take the whole Christian thing seriously.
Until then, I was in the mud with all of you God deniers, making many of the same arguments, mocking in the same way, and taking it all as some big joke. What now? I see that I was very wrong.
And I am not here to make myself right or puff up myself. Quite the contrary, I have no delusions of vainglory. I am here to throw about seeds wildly, seeds I may never see grow into fruit bearing plants because I am on to the next thing.
There is a certain very real obstacle when it comes to internet evangelism that I think is really worth mentioning. In the real world, I can be a friend. I cannot be a friend here. Too much is lost in communication. Instead, my words are filtered through this lens of being a grumpy godbother. In the world, I am a servant. I can not be that here. I think it is really sad that this medium has become the social lives of people. It is another working of the enemy to drive people farther apart into their own little pocket realities while only superficially connecting people.
And so there will be a time I will be gone. I see the well is poisoned. The ground had been salted. I am not sure what can grow here. It is my hope that something does grow however, and that even one person is lead to salvation. Maybe. I don't know. God knows.
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@disgusted
Without a doubt, God is the supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality.
The Truth as it truly is without a doubt is the supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality.
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@BrutalTruth
I am not trying to use a dictionary to prove God exists, I am using a dictionary to show what it is I mean by the word "God". Obviously, you think this definition proves God exists, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing with the dictionary.
Which invalidates your argument, and makes you guilty of fallacy misidentification.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I don't believe we agree.
You keep reading things into my words that I am not saying, which leads me to believe that your intentions aren't pure.
But here is the question you are legitimately dodging, which I find funny because everytime I answer your questionss in a way you don't want me to you accuse me of dodging.
Do you believe that the universe is the ultimate reality?
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@BrutalTruth
I am not making a fallacious argument at all. I am not even making an argument.
You on the other hand are arguing with the dictionary, which speaks volumes.
Whatever argument you are trying to make is contingent on being the one who determines what words mean.
Forget 2000 years of Church tradition, you can't even accept what the best dictionary of American English says.
If you weren't so prideful, we might be able to have a good conversation. Instead you want to project your arrogance, which makes you look like a weakling who is a slave to his passions.
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@disgusted
I did give an answer, but if someone is really only trying to trap me in my words, they are not going to be satisfied with the truth.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I am not insisting that you believe in something that cannot be observed or postulated.
I am saying that The Ultimate Reality as we Orthodox understand it is not contingent on observation or postulation. The Ultimate Reality is not a conception, that is what we understand.
So once again, are you saying that the universe is the ultimate reality?
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@BrutalTruth
Yeah, so when I say God, I am talking about The Ultimate Reality.
Which invalidates your argument.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You have a bad habit of implicating me in things I don't say or even imply.
So would you say that the universe is the ultimate reality?
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@BrutalTruth
Definition of God courtesy merriam-webster...
"capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality"
Definition of definition courtesy merriam-webster...
"a statement expressing the essential nature of something"
Or
" a statement of the meaning of a wordor word group or a sign or symbol"
Or
"the action or the power of describing, explaining, or making definate and clear"
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You may now make a fool of yourself by arguing with dictionary, and prove yourself as superstitious...
Definition of superstition courtesy merriam-webster...
"a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary"
Or you can do the right thing.
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@IlDiavolo
You say I am not being very Christian, but your username literally means the devil.
I don't respect you.
And with that, you are dismissed.
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@BrutalTruth
I cannot prove anything to someone who holds the truth arbitrarily.
The Ultimate Reality is God. Can you think of anything greater or more worthy of being called God? Of course you can't.
And the church understands this as being God. And because I knew that you have no respect for the church, I used a neutral source. A dictionary.
What fo you do? You prove that you are being arbitrary by rejecting a definition that contradicts you.
You aren't standing on anything. You think I am standing on what you are standing. I am not.
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@keithprosser
I am sure you'll look the other way when they diagnose religious practice as a mental illness, and ship us off to reeducation camps, labor camps, and meatgrinders.
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@keithprosser
I don't know your heart, but I do believe that I hurt a great deal more for you than you could ever for me.
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@keithprosser
I had enough charity to actually find out what they really teach.
Because I care about the truth.
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@keithprosser
Ok then, believe what you want to believe.
But you aren't rejecting what you understand. You think you know better though, so be it. I can't say I didn't try to help you through your errors. You are clearly uninterested.
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Really, it doesn't matter what form of government there is if the people aren't wicked.
Things aren't in such bad shape because of the government. Things are in bad shape because your country is full of rat bastards.
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"the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance."
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@keithprosser
I already do. The strife loving, willfully ignorant, and prideful.
Pagans. Yep, pagans. Polytheists in denial.
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@BT
You say I can't know, but I certainly do know.
Why do you say I can't know? Because you think you know.
And not only are you haughty, but you have me blocked. Your brazen mannerisms are a reflection of your immaturity, weakness, and yes, even cowardice.
You are too full of pride to have a real conversation.
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@keithprosser
@Deb-8-a-bull
There is really more than an arbitrary reason to do these things such as fasting. It isn't about pleasing God through fasting, it is about building things like temperance, resisting temptation, and always keeping God in our thoughts, because man lives not by bread alone but every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. That word is Jesus Christ.
The faith is kind of like a rocket ship. This outward things like the bells, the incense, and all that are kind of like the booster rocket that propels the cockpit into space. After passing a certian point in the atmosphere, the booster rocket breaks off.
The problem with those who don't get orthodoxy, and that even includes Christians, is that they think the whole faith is about the bells and incense. There is a much deeper and a much richer mystical tradition that underlies the whole thing.
And that booster rocket serves a purpose. It is a good thing. We are not going to get rid of it because people who don't understand the point of it make fun of it.
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@keithprosser
Because God is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality, it is not like the multitude of created gods, who are defined by them not being The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
And that is part of the reason that we can say that atheists are simply in denial of their gods. If an atheist were to examine the things that really influence them, make their life meaningful or worth living, and effect their judgement, they would see their gods. They would see the idols that they put before God.
And that is certainly how we understand these things, and atheism is even defined by its negation of how we understand things. It is specifically designed so that, if one is educated in an atheistic manner, even my lucid speech will become unintelligible.
And well, we live in the age of post-nihilism, which is still fundamentally nihilistic. There is no absolute truths, there are only relative truths. And as this is the case, the end and beginning of a matter is obscured in this blindness brought about by tunnel vision. That is why, in today's time, you have people like you professing atheism without even realizing that this is nihilism. You aren't even really an atheist, which by the way means that you have some good sense. It is my hope that you abandon this foolish identity, because not o ly are you not really an atheist, but it is a shame to be an atheist.
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@disgusted
Yet that isn't what the church teaches, neither is it what Jesus taught. He told us to love others as he loved us.
Which if you haven't read, was unto death. When he died because people like you demanded his execution, he said "forgive them, they know not what they do".
But I understand that you will say anything and everything to justify your rejection of The Truth.
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@disgusted
All evidence I have seen proves to me that you are a nihilist. You certainly are not a reasonable person.
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@keithprosser
You are right. It is not a god. There is a difference between "god" with a lower case "g", and "God" with a capital "G".
The Ultimate Reality is God. And you can deny this all you want, but you are wrong. If you maintain this, you are being superstitious.
Full Definition of superstitious.
1 a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation
b : an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition
2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Post 52 is not an example of me telling you what is in your head.
You already told me what is in your head. You believe you are an atheist.
Yet you believe the ultimate reality exists, because if there is only one reality, that reality is by definition the ultimate reality.
Now, you don't know God, but you believe God exists, even if you don't know that you believe God exists. That isn't an example of me knowing what is in your head better than you, it is an example of me telling someone who says they are a hippopotamus that they are in fact a human being.
Look again at what I said. The Ultimate Reality is God. Now look at what you are saying. How is what I am saying not a natural interpretation?
Maybe the one who is taking this as a competition is in fact you, because I am not trying to feed my ego.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
When did I claim to know what is in your head at all?
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@disgusted
Nothing can be proven to the nihilist, they will simply reject everything.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I don't see any competition here.
Some people call the universe God. They are called pantheists. I would say that this is a conception of God. The Ultimate Reality is God, not whatever we can conceive The Ultimate Reality to be.
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