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On a cold, chilly Christmas night, a night where the homes were usually lit with festive cheer but now lay dormant, Drafterman wandered around the town square, waving a butcher’s knife around in self-defense, paranoid as a result of the events that took place over the past three days.
“COME AT ME!!!” He yelled, “I FEAR NOTHING!!!”
Suddenly, a shadowy figure emerged out of the dark alleyway behind drafter. As Drafter turned around, the figure tackled him to the ground, knocking the knife out of his hand. The figure, revealing himself to be Virtuoso, then grabbed a handkerchief laced with chloroform and smothered Drafter with it. Despite fighting valiantly, he grew ever more sleepy with every passing second, eventually succumbing to the chloroform.
When Drafter woke up the next day, he found himself neck-deep in hard-packed snow. He tried moving his arms and legs, but found that they were completely stuck. All around him were signs of mayhem. Bits of frozen, bloody flesh still lay scattered throughout the terrain. The burnt-out crisp of Lunatic’s pyre sat there, behind the eternally t-posing figure of Speedrace’s crucifix, which seemed to be staring right into Drafter’s eyes. It was high noon, and the church bells were silent. Drafter took it all in, knowing that this would probably be the last thing he ever sees. It was almost tranquil… in a deluded way.
**THONK**
Drafter winced at the pain he felt in the back of his head. Then, he heard the crunching of snow behind him. As it got louder and louder, the chuckling of Virtuoso could be heard. Then, he came into view of Drafter, proudly squatting in front of him with the biggest grin on his face.
“Welp, it was nice knowing you ;)” Virt said, patting Drafter’s head.
“So you did all of this?” Drafter asked
“Well… I did receive assistance from the Grey martyr (bless his soul), but yes, I did plan all of this.” Virt responded.
“You BASTARD!!! WHY WOULD YOU DO ANY OF THIS!?”
“I’m on a mission… but also for my own amusement.”
“YOU MADE US KILL SUPA AND WATER!!!”
“Well… no. They brought it upon themselves, really, and you helped in that respect.”
“YOU MOTHERF*****!!!”
“It doesn’t even matter anymore. You can swear all you want in heaven.”
“YOU’LL ALWAYS BE ON SANTA’S NAUGHTY LIST!!!”
“Do you think I care? Lol”
Virtuoso then sat on top of Drafter’s head, and farted.
“>.<” Drafter responded.
“You know, my superiors always said that I needed to improve my aim. What better time to do it than now.” He then took a snowball, compacted it to the point of it being solid, and placed it in front of Drafter’s face, right under his nose. Drafter, showing discomfort, tried to get the freezing cold snowball away from his face, but to no avail.
“Hehe.” Virtuoso laughed, “this is the least uncomfortable thing you’ll be dealing with today.”
Drafter was noticeably shivering at this point, both from the cold and from anger.
“With that out of the way,” Virt said, “lets get onto it!”
All Drafter could do was stare at Virt coldly while Virt proceeded to make many, many hard-as-ice snowballs. Virtuoso took his sweet, sweet time, and by the time he finished making snowballs, the sun was setting.
At this point, Drafter had already zoned out to a better place. Recalling memories from better times, Drafter had tears rolling down his eyes, accumulating in a frozen mass on the bottom of his neck.
“HEY! THINK FAST!” Virtuoso said before slinging an iceball towards Drafter’s head.
“OW!!!” Drafter responded. An egg-sized lump formed where the iceball struck.
“Get used to this Drafter, cuz its the last thing you’ll ever feel.” Virtuoso said as he slung another iceball, which elicited another scream of agony from Drafter.
Virtuoso threw another one, and then another one… another one… another one… and each time, Drafter’s screams got quieter and quieter, until it turned into mere moans and groans, and then nothing at all. By the time Virt went through all of his iceballs, Drafter’s head was a bloody mess, with his skull smashed in.
“Welp, my job here is done ;)” Virt said, as he wandered into the sunset, whistling to the tune of “Silent Night”.
MAFIA WINS
SupaDudz: Welcome, SupaDudz! You are a Vanilla Townie. You contribute with your voice and your vote.
Drafterman: Welcome, Drafterman! You are a Vanilla Townie. You contribute with your voice and your vote.
Lunatic: Welcome, Lunatic! You are a Vanilla Townie. You contribute with your voice and your vote.
Actions
DP1: Supa - lynched
NP1: Lunatic - Night Killed
DP2: GreyParrot - Blows up irontoaster
irontoaster - dies
NP2: WaterPhoenix - Vig shoots Speedrace
Virtuoso - Night Kills Speedrace
Speedrace - dies
When Drafter woke up the next day, he found himself neck-deep in hard-packed snow. He tried moving his arms and legs, but found that they were completely stuck. All around him were signs of mayhem. Bits of frozen, bloody flesh still lay scattered throughout the terrain. The burnt-out crisp of Lunatic’s pyre sat there, behind the eternally t-posing figure of Speedrace’s crucifix, which seemed to be staring right into Drafter’s eyes. It was high noon, and the church bells were silent. Drafter took it all in, knowing that this would probably be the last thing he ever sees. It was almost tranquil… in a deluded way.
“It doesn’t even matter anymore. You can swear all you want in heaven.”
Roles
TOWN
WaterPhoenix: Welcome, WaterPhoenix! You are a 1-shot Town Vigilante. Once, at night, you may target another player in the game to attempt to kill them. You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.
Irontoaster: Welcome, irontoaster! You are a Town Innocent Child. At any time, you may have the mod publicly confirm you as town. You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.
Speedrace: Welcome, Speedrace! You are a Vanilla Townie. You contribute with your voice and your vote.
MAFIA
GreyParrot: Welcome, GreyParrot! You are a Mafia Suicide Bomber. You may communicate via PMs with Virtuoso. Each night phase, you and Virtuoso may target another player in the game, attempting to kill them. At any time during the game you may target a player to kill both yourself and the target. You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).
Virtuoso: Welcome, Virtuoso! You are a Mafia Goon. You may communicate via PMs with GreyParrot. Each night phase, you and GreyParrot may target another player in the game, attempting to kill them. You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).
DP1: Supa - lynched
NP1: Lunatic - Night Killed
DP2: GreyParrot - Blows up irontoaster
irontoaster - dies
NP2: WaterPhoenix - Vig shoots Speedrace
Virtuoso - Night Kills Speedrace
Speedrace - dies
ANALYSIS WILL BE POSTED SOON
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@Greyparrot
But at least the goose tasted delicious
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@sadolite
Ok, I see where you're coming from now, and yes, I agree.
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@Swagnarok
@Greyparrot
@Alec
@n8nrgmi
The answer's simple:
eAt ThE riCH
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@Alec
There are several videos which debunked that one.
Here's just one of them:
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@Lunatic
I feel dead inside. I LOVE IT!!!We were all living lives, except PressF4respect.
MERRY CHRISTMAS <3
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Final DP3 Vote Count:
WaterPhoenix (2/2) - drafterman, Virtuoso
WATERPHOENIX HAS BEEN LYNCHED (ON PAGE 2). HE WAS... YEAH YOU ALREADY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED
THIS GAME IS OVER.
ENDGAME WILL BE UP SHORTLY.
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@RationalMadman
Please explain to me how light refraction can make the bottom of a ship disappear over the horizon before the top does.
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On Christmas Day, the townsfolk woke up, not to the sight of presents under the tree (Santa noped right out of town after he saw what happened last night), but to a gift that no one ever wished for, nor wanted: Speedrace’s corpse doing an eternal T-pose on a crucifix with a bullet hole, smack dab in the middle of his forehead. The town was utterly silent, not just because of the horrid sight, but also because there were only 3 people left.
Died Last DP:
irontoaster - Town - Innocent Child
GreyParrot - Mafia - Suicide Bomber
Died in the Night:
Speedrace - Town - Vanilla
Graveyard:
irontoaster - Town - Innocent Child
SupaDudz - Town - Vanilla
Lunatic - Town - Vanilla
Speedrace - Town - Vanilla
GreyParrot - Mafia - Suicide Bomber
Living Players:
THIS DP WILL END ON THURSDAY, DECEMBER 26 AT 4:30PM PST, OR WHEN ALL LIVING PLAYERS HAVE VOTED.
Died Last DP:
irontoaster - Town - Innocent Child
GreyParrot - Mafia - Suicide Bomber
Died in the Night:
Speedrace - Town - Vanilla
Graveyard:
irontoaster - Town - Innocent Child
SupaDudz - Town - Vanilla
Lunatic - Town - Vanilla
Speedrace - Town - Vanilla
GreyParrot - Mafia - Suicide Bomber
Living Players:
- Drafterman
- WaterPhoenix
- Virtuoso
THIS DP WILL END ON THURSDAY, DECEMBER 26 AT 4:30PM PST, OR WHEN ALL LIVING PLAYERS HAVE VOTED.
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@OntologicalSpider
I don't see any problem with that unless you **arbitrarily** insert existence as one of its attributes. Anselm didn't do that, in the argument you formulated you extrapolated necessary existence in all possible worlds from the definition of maximal greatness. It's not circular its linear.
Anselm did **arbitrarily** insert existence as one of its attributes, albeit in a roundabout way. Anselm is basically saying that greatness = existence, and since the MGB is the greatest, it must have the most existence. Therefore, existence is literally embedded within the breadbasket definition of "greatness". Since the definition itself is part of the premise, and since the attribute of existence (the very thing the conclusion states) is already within the definition, the entire syllogism begs the question. It doesn't matter whether you implicitly (as Anselm did) or explicitly (as I did) insert existence as one of its attributes, it still begs the question.
In regards to your other argument, I don't think that's a very good argument, one way to look at it is....what makes a being convincing everyone of His existence more maximally great? What that would mean is, given the free will of human creatures, a being that did this would wind up with a world where there exist a large amount of people who are fully convinced of this being's existence, yet willfully choose to reject Him.This possible world then means that these creatures were better off NOT being fully persuaded, as the former would yeild a greater rejection and a greater punishment.We're sidetracking into soteriology and Divine foreknowledge, but that's one way I would approach that. Perhaps Dr. Franklin has some better thoughts.
A being that convinced everyone they exist and had everyone willfully choose to accept them of their own volition would be greater than one who doesn't.
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@sadolite
I can buy a telescope, rent a ship, bring a friend to man the ship, and go to the nearest body of water to do my experiment. I am 100% capable of carrying out this experiment.
Also, “seeing is believing”? What about illusions?
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@RationalMadman
@sadolite
Give me a telescope, a ship, and a sea that extends to the horizon, and I can prove that the Earth is not flat.
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@OntologicalSpider
The problem with this:
<br>Now let's add this attribute to the list of attributes:
- Greatest Being Ever
- immaterial
- omnipotent
- omniscient
- morally perfect (omnibenevolent)
- exists
Now, if you want to prove that OG exists, simply point to the sixth attribute, bada bing, bada boom!
Is that existence is literally embedded within its attributes. In essence, it boils down to this:
P1: It exists.C1: Therefore, it exists.
Now do you see any problems?
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@Dr.Franklin
@OntologicalSpider
How about this:
P1: A being that convinces more people that it exists is greater than one that convinces less people of its existence.
P2: Since the MGB is the greatest being, it would convince everyone that it exists.
P3: I am not convinced that the MGB exists.
C1: Since there is at least one person that is not convinced of the MGB's existence (me), it cannot be the MGB.
C2: The MGB does not exist.
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@OntologicalSpider
Damn. I guess you're right... It looks like I do believe in god... my god...
Let's call this unicorn god "Omnicorn God", cuz he the real OG...
Let's look at OG's attributes:
- Greatest Being Ever
- immaterial
- omnipotent
- omniscient
- morally perfect (omnibenevolent)
Notice how "exists" isn't one of OG's attributes. You'd have to prove the existence of OG in order to say that OG exists.
Now let's slot in another attribute:
- Can exist in some possible worlds
But if it can only exist in some possible worlds, it wouldn't be the greatest OG. So, it must exist in all possible worlds.
- Can exist in some possible worlds = Must exist in all possible worlds
If it must exist in all possible worlds, then it simply exists, since there is no world in which it cannot exist. Period.
- Can exist in some possible worlds = Must exist in all possible worlds = exists
Now let's add this attribute to the list of attributes:
- Greatest Being Ever
- immaterial
- omnipotent
- omniscient
- morally perfect (omnibenevolent)
- exists
Now, if you want to prove that OG exists, simply point to the sixth attribute, bada bing, bada boom!
See any problems with this?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Your iodine petri dish analogy works great against claims along the lines of
God made the universe specifically for humans.
In other words, it's pretty solid.
Just for fun, I'll pretend that I'm an apologetic. Call me PressF4Athiesm. This is how apologetic me would respond to your analogy:
In your analogy, lifeforms (bacteria) existed on the petri dish from the onset of the experiment. However, we cannot say the same for the universe. At the onset of the universe, life did not exist (this is true for both the biblical and contemporary scientific accounts), but we know for a fact that life exists now. That means that life must have arisen somehow.
Consider the complexity of life. In each cell, many, many chemical reactions are going on between many complex molecules all day, every day, just to keep you alive. If any of these processes fail, then the organism dies. Now consider how many of those cells are in a single organ, each one of which needs to work, without fail. If your liver or heart suddenly failed, you would die. Similarly, if your organs didn't work together properly, you would also die.
The environment also needs to be in a certain way in order for life to occur. Consider how many things need to be just right for life to exist. The temperature needs to be just right, there needs to be liquid water (at the right pH), and there are many, many factors that I am missing. All of these need to be right in order for life to exist, let alone thrive.
Even if we consider the most basic life form (proposed by Darwin), the first proto-cell which arose in a "primordial soup", the same would apply. Even though the proto-cell would have consisted of only RNA and a lipid layer (much simpler than prokaryotic cells, which are themselves much simpler than eukaryotic cells), the external and internal conditions must have been just right in order for the cell to live. The lipid layer must have aligned just right to encapsulate the RNA and protect it from exposure. The conditions in the soup must have been just right as well, in the chaotic, nearly inhospitable environment of the early Earth. Not to mention, the RNA must have able to reproduce itself, as well as the lipid layer surrounding it. Furthermore, the offspring must have been able to do the same, without fail, as any major mistake in any part of the reproductive process could have ended this proto-life altogether.
Considering all of this, given the incredibly low chances for even proto-life to appear, it would be a major miracle in itself that life (and humans) got to the point that it did without any sort of assistance. On the other hand, if an omnipotent and omniscient wanted to create life, it could have without any difficulty whatsoever.
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@EtrnlVw
"We" refers to all of us as a collective whole.Who is we??
that's why I'm bringing it to your attention the very nature of what has been produced. If you accept that processes can occur without there being an awareness that's your decision.
If it comes down to individual acceptance or rejection of something, then it is no more than opinion. This means that more than one option is valid. The problem is, when/if we get down to the most basic, fundamental building blocks of the universe, there can't be more than one valid option. At the most basic level, either one or more gods exist, or none exist at all.
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@OntologicalSpider
Bone and soft tissue cannot survive high heat and pressure.
In this world, that would be the case. However, in other worlds (where the laws of physics would be different), there could definitely be bones and soft tissue that can survive high temperatures and pressures.
A unicorn does not have the cognitive facilities to be omniscient. Since omniscience requires knowledge of all truths, a unicorn, by nature of what it is, does not know all truths. A unicorn does not know 2+2 = 4 how many animals real or imagined know that E=mc squared?
In certain worlds, unicorns could know that 2+2=4 or that E=mc^2. Definitely not out of the realm of conception. I could literally make a kids' cartoon where that is the case.
A unicorn, being an animal, cannot exhibit moral perfection. There are no faculties for it to know moral truths.
There could definitely be a world that a unicorn could know moral truths, just like there could be worlds where snakes can talk, even though they don't have the mental faculties to do that in this world.
A unicorn cannot be omnipotent, it is merely a mythological horned horse. The Minotaur could probably beat it in a fight.
There could be a world where a unicorn beats a minotaur in a fight. There could also be a world where a unicorn is omnipotent. Unless it is logically impossible for any of these things to exist, they can.
A unicorn made of light? We're so far from the definition we started from.
This is the definition we have:
a mythological horse with one horn.
Does the definition provided here implicitly and/or explicitly say that a unicorn cannot be made out of photons? If not, then a world can exist where unicorns are made of photons.
What of a possible world where no photons exist?
Then our unicorn can be made out of something that isn't matter or photons.
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@OntologicalSpider
Horses are made of bone and soft tissueA being made of bone and soft tissue cannot survive extreme heat and pressure.
Unless you can demonstrate how bones and soft tissue having the ability to survive high temperatures and pressures would be logically impossible in any world, I can conceive of a world where bone and soft tissue have this attribute.
But let's just grant you a heat resistant unicorn for the sake of this discussion.Aside from the fact that a unicorn cannot exhibit maximal greatness for a variety of reasons
Like?
Aside from the fact that a unicorn cannot exhibit maximal greatness for a variety of reasons, the unicorn analogy fails because a MGB has to exist in all possible worlds. A world where no matter exists would exclude the unicorn. Therefore we can't have a mg unicorn
Where in the definition of a unicorn does it say that it must be made out of matter? Can I not conceive a world where there is a unicorn that is made of something else, like light energy?
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@OntologicalSpider
A possible world though is not just any world at random you can think up. It has to be logically possible. For example, a possible world with four sided triangles is NOT a possible world . Its logically incoherentA world where the matter a horse is made of can survive the sun is not an actually possible world. In order to get that to work you would have to violate the definition of horse/unicorn, or say that this animal is made of some special, heat resistant material.To which I would grant, but then reply with a possible world where NO matter exists. Your unicorn could not survive that possible world. Which leads back to my original point, that a unicorn can exist in some possible worlds but not all
Given this definition of unicorn:
a mythological horse with one horn.
How would the unicorn being able to survive high temperatures and pressures render the entire entity impossible to even conceive?
In other words, how is this:
A mythological horse with one horn that is able to survive high temperatures and pressures
logically impossible?
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@OntologicalSpider
I could certainly conceive of a horse that can survive high temperatures and pressures. Is it in this world? No. But could such a horse exist in one of the possible worlds? YesBecause if we're conceiving this animal as actually existing, it would be obvious it cannot. How many horses do you know could survive the surface of the sun? Horn or no horn
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@OntologicalSpider
A unicorn by definition is a mythological horse with one horn. We can conceive of this animal existing in some possible worlds. In the world I posited, if a unicorn could survive that, it no longer meets the definition of unicorn. Any real animal would be destroyed in this possible world. To say that the unicorn survives this possible world violates the nature and definition of a unicorn
The definition of a unicorn:
a mythological horse with one horn.
Where in this definition does it say (either implicitly or explicitly) that it cannot survive high temperatures and pressures?
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@OntologicalSpider
I wasn't talking about the first premise. I was talking about the very way the MGB is defined.The first premise states that it is POSSIBLE for a MGB to exist. Existence is not defined into the properties of the MGB.
This unicorn you posit cannot exist in all possible worlds. We can conceive of a world that has properties of extreme heat and pressure as fundamental to its nature. A unicorn could not survive that possible world. Any unicorn that could is not what we mean by unicorn.
A unicorn that can survive the extreme heat and pressure of that world is better than one that cannot. Therefore, that unicorn is greater. Therefore, according to the syllogism, it exists.
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Vote Count:
VTNL (4/4) - drafterman, GreyParrot, WaterPhoenix, irontoaster
GreyParrot (1/4) - Virtuoso
drafterman (1/4) - Speedrace
THE TOWN HAS VOTED TO NOT LYNCH ANYONE THIS DP.
After the lynchless day, the townsfolk return to their homes to rest for the night. As irontoaster was heading back to his abode, he noticed the sound of footsteps behind him. They were getting closer and closer by the second. As he turned around to see what was happening, he was bearhugged by GreyParrot. Before irontoaster could react, he heard GreyParrot whispering to him the last word he would ever hear.
"Sayonara"
***BOOM***
The rest of the townsfolk, startled by the sound of the massive explosion, turned towards the scene to see bits of flesh, bone, and bloody shrapnel scattered everywhere. The snow, which minutes earlier was a pristine white, was now tainted with a deep, scarlet red. The townsfolk, deeply disturbed by the events that just transpired, returned to their homes, unsure of what would, or could, possibly happen next.
THIS DP HAS ENDED. PLEASE SUBMIT NIGHT ACTIONS (IF APPLICABLE). STOP POSTING.
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I looked at my profile, and noticed that below the medals were these green coins. I have no idea what they are for, or what they do. Does anyone here know? Thanks!
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@Dr.Franklin
Also:His standards is the best
Why are they the best standards?
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@OntologicalSpider
Again no, the MGB is not defined as simply existing ..He is defined as being maximally great. The whole point of the argument is that if an MGB exists in just one possible world, then, He must exist in all possible worlds otherwise this being is not maximally great.
I never defined MGB as "simply existing". I just said that MGB has existence as one of its properties, to which you agree to. Since the entire point of the ontological argument is to argue for God's (which the argument calls the MGB) existence, defining the MGB as having "existence" as one of its properties (premises) begs the question.
A is the greatest possible beingIt is possible A existsA exists in some possible worlds.If A exists in some possible worlds, A exists in all possible worlds, because a being that exists in some worlds but not others is inferior to a being that exists in all possible worlds. Therefore a truly maximal great being exists in all worlds
Unicorns are the greatest possible beings
It is possible that unicorns exist
Unicorns exist in some possible worlds.
If unicorns exist in some possible worlds, unicorns exists in all possible worlds, because a being that exists in some worlds but not others is inferior to a being that exists in all possible worlds. Therefore unicorns exist in all worlds
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@OntologicalSpider
So the MGB essentially has existence as one of its definitions. In other words:No that doesn't work. What makes it the case that a MGB exists in one world and therefore all worlds is that it is more maximally great to exist in all worlds rather than one. A being that possesses no attributes at all, a being that doesn't exist, does not have to not exist. It has no attributes that would demand that.What Anselm and Plantiga were getting at is that the definition of a MGB means it exists in all possible worlds. A non existent being doesn't have that property
"I define this thing to have existence as one of its properties, therefore it exists."
1. This is begging the question
2. I could literally do this with anything:
P1: There is a unicorn which has existence as one of its properties.
P2: It is impossible for this unicorn not to exist, since that would go against its very properties.
C1: The unicorn exists.
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@OntologicalSpider
How did you jump from it is possible a MGB doesn't exist to it is necessary that a MGB doesn't exist?Since it is logically possible a MGB does exist you can't have the necessary non existence of a MGB. A MGB is logically possible so it's non existence is not necessary.
The argument I presented uses the same logic that Anselm used in his, that possible = necessary. Namely, that if there is one world where the MGB can exist in, then it must exist in all possible worlds. The syllogism I presented turns this on its head. If it is possible to conceive of a world where such a being doesn’t exist (lacking omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, etc.), which it certainly is, then it must be the case for all possible worlds.
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@DynamicSquid
Mike (DebateArt.com) creates the site. Bsh1 was just the head mod.
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@Dr.Franklin
@OntologicalSpider
If Anselm's Ontological argument is valid, then what about this one:
- A being has maximal excellence in a given possible world if and only if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good in; and
- A being has maximal greatness if it has maximal excellence in every possible world.
- It is possible that there isn’t a being that has maximal greatness. (Premise)
- Therefore, possibly, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good being does not exist.
- Therefore, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being does not exist. (axiom S5)
- Therefore, an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being does not exist.
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@Dr.Franklin
What does "perfectly moral" mean?
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Vote Count:
VTNL (3/4) - drafterman, GreyParrot, WaterPhoenix
GreyParrot (1/4) - Virtuoso
drafterman (1/4) - Speedrace
THIS DP WILL END IN ~32.5 HOURS, OR WHEN ALL REMAINING PLAYERS HAVE VOTED. IF A MAJORITY IS NOT ATTAINED BY THE END OF THIS DP, THEN THE ACTION WITH THE MOST VOTES WILL TAKE EFFECT. IF TWO OR MORE ACTIONS ARE TIED, THEN A RANDOM ACTION AMONG THOSE WILL BE ENACTED.
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Vote Count:
VTNL (3/4) - drafterman, GreyParrot, WaterPhoenix
GreyParrot (1/4) - Virtuoso
drafterman (1/4) - Speedrace
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Vote Count:
VTNL (2/4) - drafterman, GreyParrot
GreyParrot (1/4) - Virtuoso
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@EtrnlVw
The entire crux of the fine-tuning argument is that if the variables were slightly different from what they are, life/stars/galaxies/etc. would not exist. Not just that the galaxies, the solar systems, and the lifeforms would be different, but that they wouldn't exist at all.There's some truth to that obviously. Different arrangement different results? I mean we all should know that the arrangement of our solar system is why we have the results we do, if it were altered in any way the effects would be significant. It's because of the arrangement why we exist in the manner we do. However, I don't think that if the variables were altered then the universe would not exist, but the bodies we inhabit sure would cease to exist.
Either way we are correlating "fine-tuning" with a Creator, but I'm focusing more on the processes and correlating that with intelligence. Looking at the whole picture it seems deliberate to me, it's more than obvious. My position is that no process or apparent fine tuning could occur without sentience (awareness). It just doesn't happen. Awareness is behind all things, all of creation period.
We currently do not know whether this is true or not.
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I apologize for the delay, as I had an unexpected issue to deal with IRL. Without further delay, let's move onto DP2.
Lynched Last DP:
SupaDudz - Town - Vanilla
Died in the Night:
Lunatic - Town - Vanilla
Graveyard:
SupaDudz - Town - Vanilla
Lunatic - Town - Vanilla
Living Players:
As the sun rises, and the townspeople awaken to the cries of the roosters, a horrid sight afflicts them. To the town’s dismay, a burnt-out pyre with the charred skeletal remains of a corpse bounded with scorched rope occupies the center of the town square. As the townspeople look around, they notice that Lunatic was absent. Eventually it dawned upon town that Lunatic had been burned at the stake. Outraged at this horrendous act, the townsfolk sought to bring the perpetrators to justice. However, no one knew who had committed this act.
Lynched Last DP:
SupaDudz - Town - Vanilla
Died in the Night:
Lunatic - Town - Vanilla
Graveyard:
SupaDudz - Town - Vanilla
Lunatic - Town - Vanilla
Living Players:
- Drafterman
- Speedrace
- WaterPhoenix
- GreyParrot
- irontoaster
- Virtuoso
WITH 6 PLAYERS REMAINING, 4 VOTES ARE REQUIRED TO ATTAIN A MAJORITY LYNCH.
THIS DP WILL END ON TUESDAY, DECEMBER 24 AT 10PM PST, OR WHEN ALL LIVING PLAYERS HAVE VOTED.
Created: