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@Discipulus_Didicit
Of course you would never dare to outrightly declare such an abomination in those days unless you were feeling suicidal.Because you could argue (as some have) that Plato was a closet atheist and only pretended to believe in the gods but I am not aware of anything that would indicate he ever outright said he was an atheist.
My bone of contention, and in keeping with my bold (yet highly accurate) views is that the nature of being a good philosopher is that you need to have a very conceptual-type thinking pattern which is why philosophers always seem to be a bit la-dee-da, non-commital, vacillating dreamers, more akin to being theistic.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Also that was Aristotle not Plato.
Wrong, it was Plato.
I mean dude, I am just a random asshole on the internet with a high school diploma and a 2.7 GPA
You said it.
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We can all agree to agree that religion has had more than a small effect on society (for better or for worse, most notably, the latter) since its invention several hundred years ago.
So much so in fact that religion was used by authorities to influence the law of the land. And enforcement was brutal. Back in the days of Henry VIII, you would be burnt alive for dissing the Church.
Now of course the only countries that have religious rule are those whose societal and moral standards are well behind the times, and understandably so.
Thank God modern decent civilized society has left religion well and truly behind. Oh yes, there are a few pockets of die-hard Church zealots here and there dotting the landscape but we no longer have Churches influencing laws or societal standards.
Yet we tend to have a few religious “left-overs” still deeply set within the bowels of our modern-day secular society. For example, one would say “Jesus Christ” or “Oh God” as exclamations of surprise. And how about that wonderful drink named after the immaculate birth; “Bloody Mary”.
Those good ole time favourites will probably never go away but we should at least address one anomaly that simply doesn’t make much sense,(not that religion ever made much sense anyway) and that is the use of the words “theist” and “atheist”.
Back in days of yore, the default position was to be “with religion” (theist), and, let’s face it, if you were “without” (atheist) there was a hell of a price to pay.
Nowadays, the tables have changed and we live in a healthy, prosperous, free secular society whereby atheists are the in crowd (with) while theists are the out crowd (without). So, why not change the terminologies to reflect such a societal swing?
For example, being an atheist I’m just a normal guy with no prejudices and certainly no imaginary voices or visions floating around my head,so why not call the default position “normal” (with secularism) and those who belong to the out crowd we would call…oh, err…”abnormal”?
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@zedvictor4
Why should it be a he and why should it not be Chinese?/
....and is she black?
Quite right.
Humans have a habit of personifying anything and everything.....Mother Nature, for example. Crs..."she's a beut little Prius" , and wait for this one, "baby peas" and "jelly babies".
It's just that we got ourselves into a heck of a lot of trouble by personifying the unknown and use a blanket name such as "God".
A shite load of gullible people started actually believing what those in authority were saying about there being an actual invisible person out there.
Of course it did suit some of those naive deluded nitwits in that they already had an imaginary friend floating around their cranial mass. They could justify their madness and simply call it God.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I was referring to Plato's "Third Man" hypothesis.Yeah so he was talking about Plato like I said but not in the way I thought he was. I thought he was making a reference to The Apology (a written work by Plato purporting to describe the trial of Socrates) where Socrates is accused and convicted of being an atheist as well as other crimes all of which he denied.
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@Mopac
We certainly respect scripture as authoritative.
The scriptures deserve not one ounce of respect as being authoritative at all since they are riddled with inaccuracies, speculative anecdotes and outright myths.
The Bible has never been authenticated and is classified as a book of reference. It has very little of substance of fact or truth to it whatsoever.
The Bible displays very little respect for human rights and its authority is limited to ruling with an iron rod in commanding its followers to behave in the most heinous and anti-social ways.
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@zedvictor4
Salixes one track mind unfortunately blinkers their judgement somewhat. They're missing the wood for the trees as it were.And everyone and everything is a strawman other than their own blinkered angst.
Uh, uh. You are wrong there.
I have not made everyone and everything a Strawman, have I?
Well, have I?
No, I haven't. So perhaps You may like to reign yourself in a bit.
I was very specific in my my totally correct exposure of your erroneously introduced and dicombobulated assumptions..
the cause of primary creation is a separate issue and all possible cards are still firmly on the table.
The cards and the table are only in your mind. A mind that cannot apparently stop associating the known with the unknown.
I'm afraid that you will need to sharpen your knife quite considerably before even thinking of trying to stick it in me.
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@Tradesecret
And, as we all now, the likely answer to that question is the Aboriginal Dreamtime. Evidence suggests that it is the original religion dating back some 40,000 years and preceding false and copied religions by considerable time margins. Let's take one false religion as an example, oooh ahhh, oh, I know, let's go for Christianity.People generally only fake things which are valuable or originals. But the ipso facto point is a fake or a counterfeit MUST point to an original. Of course finding the original is an altogether different question.
One can see the definite phoniness and copied aspects going on. The Abos showed what Holy Communion is all about with their Corroborees.
And the sharing of food....chucking a blue tongue on the fire until its guts explode. And the sipping of wine. I know, it is more like getting shite-faced on a slab of Four X but you can see the similarities there.
So there you have it. The original religion.
Everything else is just not the real McCoy, is it?
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@ethang5
What would have happened to all the confused, mistaken, and deluded people?Not to mention all the fakes trying to use religion for profit?
Very good questions there.
There would be many confused and mistaken atheists who would be manipulated into following extreme,anti-social, prejudiced atheist cults by atheist charlatans. There will always be naive, gullible people and there will always be a holes who take advantage of them.
But, as you quite rightly contended, the operative word here is "would" and the opening post said "if".
As we all know, there are many religions, many denominations and there are many texts therefore confirming that religion did not come from God but was invented.
And there are many confused and mistaken theists who are being manipulated into following extreme,anti-social, prejudiced atheist cults by theist charlatans.
Ah well, got to go now. I have 26 more to go today.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yo atheist mopac, clear something up for us please. Were you insinuating earlier that I believe in some god or other because I read Plato or were you making an obscure reference to the historical debate on whether or not Plato believed in gods?
You can leave the Moped crap out for a start.
I'm not one to knock philosophy BUT I was alluding more to the quasi off the planet, "three men" concept Plato came up with after scoffing a few mugs of hemlock one day. After drinking that stuff, (providing you don't cark it) you would be standing out from yourself looking at the world from the point of view of three different people. It's getting pretty close to the "imaginary friend" affliction suffered by deluded God followers.
Correct me if I'm barking up the wrong olive tree, and you would probably know better but didn't Plato come up with some such sort of concept?
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@zedvictor4
As I have already stated elsewhere, to much negative angst is perhaps clouding your judgement.
So now, let's bring out the personal attack and guilt trip trump card and whack it on the straw table, shall we?
The trouble is that you can't use the Joker as a trump.
There is no such thing as "creationary/evolutionary" let alone trying to make up a bigger picture with which to frame such a nutty concept.
I don't know what shovel-leaning roadworker wrote the book you get your ideas from but he certainly wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, that's for sure.
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@Tradesecret
I have never said there was nothing sinful about homosexuals. I have said and maintained that homosexuality is a sin and a departure from God's plan
"I never said that the sky was red. I have said and maintained that the sky is red".
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@zedvictor4
No.Only if God instructed all peoples all at the same time, would that be true.
Geeziz bluddy Kerrist! Here we go, bringing out the strawman table of cards again.
By the same token, what about a Lobster Telephone?
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@zedvictor4
As I clearly stated I am an atheist in regard to a supernatural God phenomena.And probably just like you, I think that conventional religions are pointless nonsense.But unfortunately or not as the case may be, the argument that you cited is sound.Something that cannot be proven, therefore cannot be disproven either. Pink elephants and all.So better to channel all that angst energy, into calm positive reasoning.
Uh, Uh, naughty naughty. You are inventing your table with cards on it strawman (non) reasoning again, aren't you?
Just like me eh?
Let's make it clear. All forms of religion are pointless nonsense.
Especially non-conventional religions.
(Now folks, stay tuned as we witness all sorts quasi re-labeling and redefining come out of the woodwork to disguise yet another set of nutty beliefs)
Wait for it......
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You can try to label me what you want but comparing me to such a morally corrupt, hateful and bigoted cretin is getting a bit rich.So basically atheist Mopac.
I mean, I could by the same token bring into question the credibility of someone who say, claims to be an atheist yet compulsively models his judgemental faculties around an ancient airy-fairy quasi-superstitious philosopher like er, oooh, let's take, for example, Plato.
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@zedvictor4
It is only a separate issue for creationists who want to keep the dream alive. "Oh yes, oh yes, we concede there was evolution but there are questions still about how life started."Nonetheless, the cause of primary creation is a separate issue and all possible cards are still firmly on the table.
In other words, creationists invented the table and invented the cards.
The formation of life is a part of the evolutionary process and has been overwhelmingly demonstrated and proven if one cares to read the research which is complicated but not understanding it is no reason to poo poo it.
Tellingly, there is not one skerrick of evidence disproving the interaction of heat and chemicals that formed the first living cells. And, although creationists are so keen to rubbish the beginnings of life, they have not provided any detail whatsoever of an alternative theory.
Evolution (including the very initial formation of biological formations) has been irrefutably proven and there are no cards on any table except in the minds of (deluded) wishful thinkers.
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@zedvictor4
Although I am in conventional terms an atheist, I am still patently aware that your above comment cannot be substantiated. It's very much a catch 22 situation regarding the unlikely or likely existence of a supreme creative being.
The "can't rule out anything" hypothesis is often used by theists who, for want of any sort of rational argument will come out with: "you can't disprove God."
This gives rise to anyone to claim any absurdity they want simply because their claim cannot be 100% disproven.
"You cannot substantiate your claim that pink elephants with wings don't exist, can you, well? That's right, you cant' so, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah."
It would be a world of total chaos if we were to accept anything just because it can't be ruled out.
There is not one skerrick of evidence or proof whatsoever as to support the existence of God (or any other supernatural phenomena). In fact, there is overwhelming evidence that that irrefutably disproves creation (the cornerstone of religious belief).
Nobody in his or her right mind is "entitled" to claim the existence of God.
God does not exist.
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Every year approximately nine million children under the age of five-years-old die.
That's about 1000 per hour and most of those children's parents will be praying right now for God to spare their lives.
Surely a God who can either do nothing to help these children or just doesn't care is either impotent or just plain, outright evil.
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Doesn't it stand to reason that if God invented religion, there would be only one religious text and one denomination of worship?
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I think that the concept of creation and evolution "co-existing" is a vain attempt by creationists to keep their dream alive whilst indirectly conceding that they have been totally trumped by evolution.
For example: "species having been created will adapt to their environment" and "there is evolution within species but not between species". A new term I found yesterday was "kind". . . . . . "there is evolution between species but not between kinds."
Then there is the vague play on the "consciousness" or "spirit" concept that somehow a creator left everything to evolve but when a human comes about, a conscience is miraculously programmed into that body.
Evolution is an extremely tried, proven and irrefutable science. When will creationists stop trying to take a free ride by jumping on the evolution bandwagon in a vain attempt to gain credibility?
If creationists have any reasonable argument for their cause, they should present their own research and evidence instead of hijacking the hard, Intelligent work done by others.
Creation and evolution have nothing to do with each other, They are poles apart and the twain shall never meet.
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I think it fair to say, and all theists would agree, that when you die you become closer to God.
It stands to reason really and no matter how hard one tries to deny it, it is a watertight, irrefutable statement of fact.
I am even prepared to admit that when I die I will be closer to God.
In fact, I say quite unequivocally that when anyone dies he or she will be closer to God.
Because the fact is, God does not exist.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Geezis Deb.So i can poke fun of you there?
That was a bit of an ominous choice of the word "poke" don't you think?
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@Vader
you can only say that for catholic priests, they're the most corrupt, and not in the stereotypical way
I can say that for any, deceitful, lying charlatan who preaches utter nonsense through guilt and fear by praying on those who are naive, gullible, weak and vulnerable.
And, isn't it always the case with denominations to accuse the others......oh, however the cult I belong to is not like them, oh, no sirree, we are much better.
It's like trying to pick the best out of a whole barrel entirely filled with rotten apples.
I say, leave them all alone and they will just rot away and vanish, never to be heard of again.
Amen.
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@ethang5
The questions are only food for thought for you Gentle Reader. The great debater Sal doesn't answer questions.
The questions are merely a diversion gentle reader because the preceding poster failed to (deliberately, one can safely assume) to read the opening post correctly. It said, and I quote:
"Just suppose (well you suppose there is a God, Right? )"
Now, considering that my learned friend here is well familiar with delusional concepts one would expect that he could "just suppose" quite easily and answer the thread..
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@Vader
There is no such thing as a priest being a good guy.I know the priest there, very good guy.
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@Mopac
The perverts rub their hands waiting for freah meat to walk through the club doors.If you ask me, one of the most abominable practices that developed in recent history is advertising aimed at children.Why hate gay people? They are deceived, they don't know what they are doing is defiling. We live in a society that idolizes pleasure. Sex with anything feels good. If sex with anything feels good, why not do what is easy?
That is some of the most disgusting, bigoted, hate-filled piece of filth ever.
You are a disgrace to humanity and a blight on decent, civilised society .
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@Mopac
Those who place their faith in lying vanities forsake their own salvation.
In which case you don't have a hope in Hell of salvation.
But I wouldn't worry about it if I were you since there is no such thing as salvation.
It was a concept dreamed up by those in authority to instill fear and guilt into the deluded mindsets of those who are naive, gullible, weak and vulnerable.
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@OntologicalSpider
And so you should feel offended.Oh no....I am so offended.... These religious jokes are so very infuriating.....(massive eye roll)
After all Christians have offended the senses and intelligence of normal, decent, civilised people for centuries.
Don't you think they deserve at least a bit of retribution?
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@Tradesecret
God called homosexuality an abomination because it distorts the image of God and because it denies one of the primary purposes and responsibilities that God had given humanity. Homosexuality arose after the fall of humanity into sin; not before hand. TO say otherwise is to distort the biblical narrative.
So, let's get this straight. God had nothing to do with homos becoming homos. They just got that way from their own free will after humanity fell into sin. Of course you are not saying that in as much words that homosexuality is a sin....it was just a coincidence that homosexuals came to be....ooooh let's say, a day after the fall of humanity.
Sheer coincidence right? Because after all you just love homos and there is nothing sinful about them at all.
It's just that everyone fell into sin and perhaps God was being just a little homophobic when he just so happened to discriminate against homosexuals when what he really meant to say was, "for anyone to fall into sin is an abomination".
After all, when God started churning out the first homo-erectus (and I'm not talking about Gays with hard-ons) from his pottery wheel about 1.6 million years ago (4000 Christian years) morals and ethics hadn't been invented and it was fairly commonplace to consider some people as queer.
Have I encapsulated the thrust of your argument right there?
Oh, and have you fell in love with any more pansies lately?
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@Mopac
The nature of The Uncreated Reality is different than the nature of created reality.One is self existing, the other is contingent.
I thoroughly agree with you there
The other is contingent upon the perceiver being totally deluded.
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@Mopac
Divine nature is very different from created nature.
There is no such thing as "divine nature".
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support such an erroneously stated phenomenon and anybody who believes such is clearly deluded.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support such an erroneously stated phenomenon and anybody who believes such is clearly deluded.
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Just suppose (well you suppose there is a God, Right? ). . . . . . .
. . . . . Just suppose it is possible to not only tell the sex of an unborn fetus but also, the sexual inclination of that fetus.
Would you get an abortion if the fetus is gay?
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We have all heard the continuous ludicrous, offensive banter from gun lobbyists:
“An armed society is a polite society.”
“The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”
“Gun control doesn’t work because criminals don’t follow the law.”
And of course, the ever-popular and gut-wrenching pea-brained logic, "guns don't kill, people kill".
Anyone with a brain larger than a pea can figure out that it is "people with guns who kill."
It's a bit like religion really.
Some may say that it is Churches that are bigoted and incite hatred.
Others may say that it is people who are bigoted and hateful.
But, if we put the two together, we could have a deadly combination:
Surely, should it not be: "It is people who belong to Churches who are bigoted and hateful."
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@Dr.Franklin
every religion topic of yours is useless one-liners
Thanks for your very in-depth and informative one-liner there.
You have well and truly highlighted the fact that there are one-liners and there are one-liners.
The probing analysis of the topic's validity in your particular case was was succinct and hard-hitting. Many people just don't realise that there is a lot of cryptical intonation going on in just that one word: "useless".
In which case of course, it would take some time before you fully digest the intricacies and varied themes interwoven into both the topic and the opening post.
In which case of course, it would take some time before you fully digest the intricacies and varied themes interwoven into both the topic and the opening post.
Oh I know, I know. You disagree with the over-riding message but then, given the quality and intellect shown in your comprehensive arguments, you would have no problem in offering valuable dialogue to subjects that you find challenging.
For example, I was dead miffed at your objective, lengthy intellectual dialogue in the following post:
are you better than a cow?
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@Athias
Oh, yeah thanks I will.Enjoy the rest of your day, sir.
It started well already. I got into a really interesting discussion with my Uber driver this morning.
He was talking about the previous ride he gave to a mechanic. He said it was the most useless conversation he ever had. All the passenger would talk about was mechanics and nothing else.
Huh, wouldn't you know it eh?
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@Dr.Franklin
can you stop spamming
Considering I haven't even started spamming in the first place it would be impossible to stop.
Do you care to make a considered comment on the perfectly valid issue that I raised instead of spamming yourself?
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@Dr.Franklin
It's not that hard to figure out who won the battle of religions, the true religion won
Yep, you hit the nail on the head there.
It just so happens to be the religion that you follow.
I mean, what are the chances.
1 out of 10,000, that's what.
Geeziz, you got it absolutely right.
Hey, and I bet it was one heck of a coincidence also that you happened to be born where that religion is prevalent.
And, gee, let me guess; it just so happened to be the religion that your family follows.
Huh, I'll be darned.
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I saw a fire breakout at my local church yesterday so I reported it to the emergency services.
Hopefully, they got my message and did something to help otherwise it will have been a waste of a postage stamp.
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....it would have to have been a totally absurd question.
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@ronjs
I must say that I really admire the fact that you have never been to any Church at all.Never been to any church that tells people when to use their genitals, or incited hatred toward anyone, or dictated whether or not a person in a vegetative state should be a burden on anyone and certainly not want to lengthen any ones suffering.
Good on you.
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@ethang5
Yes, especially with mint sauce.We know you like sheep.
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@ethang5
Oh, I see. So, by the same token, one may say that heterosexual behavior is by choice, or else it is a crime.No one can see attraction. It has to do with behavior. And adults control their behavior. Homosexual behavior is by choice, or else it is a crime.
And, if not, then one can be assumed to be homophobic and bigoted.
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@Tradesecret
And as for your lies
Well, you could be absolutely right there.
I know, I know; making ad hominem attacks isn't exactly kosher but I guess you did highlight the fact that we must be on an equal footing since we both talked about heaven and God as if they really do exist. So we both lied about that didn't we?
But, I still think that you do have the upper hand on this one. Saying that atheism being a religion is not exactly lying since it is such a blatantly stupid assertion in the first place.
So, you win, clearly unopposed in the stupidity stakes.
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@Athias
Metaphors aside, feel free to address my rebuttal:
Okay then, here we go.
Anyone can drive a car; it takes discipline to maintain a functioning vehicle.When said car frequently breaks down, it is.
Let's examine both rebuttals, shall we?
Here we can see two classic examples of introducing a strawman.
It would be an absolute timewaster and an undisciplined twit (who can't earn enough money or discipline himself to schedule regular servicing) who would maintain his own car. And for that matter, who owns a car that frequently breaks down.
In any case, if one's car were to break down, one would call for roadside assistance and catch an Uber.
So, you are completely wrong on every score there.
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......or at least 99.99% of them will go to hell.
You see, there are 10,000 Gods known to be worshiped around the world, each claiming to be the one and only pathway to eternal life and most have some sort of punishment for choosing the wrong religion, or dare I say, for being an atheist.
Such punishment usually takes the form of spending an eternity in a massive furnace where not a drop of water will touch your tongue. You will be constantly prodded and whipped. And you have to endure consuming hot beer, chili dogs and deviled wings. You will also be subjected to watching endless repeats of the Brady Bunch and Celine Dion will be constantly blurted through the PA.
So, really your chances of spending an eternity in a great luxury resort somewhere up there are pretty slim to say the least.
But wait, there's more......
If you happen to be unfortunate enough to be a Christian, your chances of going to the promised land are practically diddly squat. There are about 30,000 Christian denominations and, yes you guessed it, each one claims to be the one and only pathway to heaven.
So, here's my advice to all you God fearin Christians out there with one of them plastic Jesus dolls sittin on the dashboard of your car. You'd better be a totin yourselves down to your nearest lottery store and gettin a ticket in the next 100 million dollar draw.
Because your chances of winning all them lovely green backs is almost dead certain compared with where you think you're goin when you fall offa your pearch. You can sure as Hell bet on it.
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@Mopac
"So called" now are they?I do not have an irrational fear of so called "homosexuals", neither do I treat anyone unjustly. Your accusations are unfounded.
What you may call "unjust" is downright offensive and unacceptable to most.
My accusations are completely justified.
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@Athias
Owning a car isn't about dismantling it and examining every piece and writing a thesis on how every part should or shouldn't fit together.And I did address your point--twice now.
I dare you to take it for a drive.
Go on, get involved, try it.
Unless of course, you happen to be mortally scared of driving.
Or worse still, perhaps you simply don't know how to drive at all.
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@ethang5
Oh my God Jesus is so awesome!
You can put your pants back on now.
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@zedvictor4
That could be so, I have not researched the subject. Nevertheless, we are human beings and we all have the ability to modify our thinking.Some people might consider that the propensity to believe in various nonsenses, is perhaps genetic sickness.
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