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@Uther-Penguin
He got himself banned so it didn't look like he was scared to accept it.
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@Castin
Fuck. I had to stop because I saw a big spider and now I can't find it. Now this whole fucking room is unsafe.
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@whatthef
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@whatthef
That is I'm up and willing to have a adult size conversion, where you are not.
Your conversation with blamonkey proves that not to be the case. When the owner of the site characterizes what you have said as nonsense, you kinda blew your shot at having an adult-sized conversation.
Me joining you and blamonkey does nothing to help improve this site.
Joining the hangout to express, discuss, and refine your ideas for site betterment doesn't do anything to help improve it? God forbid you actually hangout with regulars on DA and run your ideas past them. Blamonkey offered to listen to your ideas and you refused because you wanted to act difficult, yet you preach to me about adult sized conversations which you demonstrated you are unable to have.
If not to better the site, join the hangout so I can see if you still act like a retard in there ;)
If not to better the site, join the hangout so I can see if you still act like a retard in there ;)
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@Zeichen
@spacetime
@ResurgetExFavilla
@KingLaddy01
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@whatthef
And here you are still posting garbage. You said quite clearly that you were done with the convo, yet you keep coming back to it. Are you being an adult by doing that? I don't think so XD Moreover, if you actually believe that I am a troll, you would have stopped engaging with me long ago as this conversation does not improve the site's discourse that you are so concerned about; you should have reported me to the mods and allowed moderator action to take its course as that's the adult thing to do. But nope, you keep coming back like the troll you are ;)
Since you keep coming back to the conversation despite saying you were done with it, join the hangout this weekend. We could talk about your hypocrisy and idiocy. You have no issue talking shit in the forums here, let's hear you talk some shit in the hangout.
And let's not forget who got told to knock their crap off: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/99?page=8&post_number=181
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@Zeichen
@AngelofDeath
@blamonkey
This weekend maybe?
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@whatthef
Yet here you are still trying to defend your bullshit at length.
I only wanted to point out that this song wasn't a Christmas song
Ok, and there are ways of going about it that don't contradict your 'mission' of improving site discourse. Talk about making your forum debut on the wrong foot XD #misguided.
You moan at us for allegedly talking shit, yet in your pursuit of 'cleaning up' the hangout conversations and trying to "improve the site", you attract the attention of the site owner who told you to knock your crap off.
If you legit want to improve this site, you can do so by improving your attitude or quite simply just by leaving the site. It took you 3 months to start posting in the forums and this is what you come up with? Shit posts? Maybe it's time for you to take your own advice and grow up ;)
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@whatthef
@RationalMadman
For once? I'm right on a lot of things ;)
We agree on the fact that he is pretty hilarious. He talks about wanting to promote talks in the hangouts to better this site/the world, and among his first posts in the forums is a post moaning about a Christmas song and engaging in a wholly unproductive conversation with blamonkey where whatthef acted like a total ass. Asked to join a hangout to share some of his ideas on how to better talks/the online experience here on DA, whatthef refused. Then I exposed his hypocrisy in this thread, to which he only responded with nonsense.
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@blamonkey
It's all good lol. It was pretty lively last night
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@Zeichen
@blamonkey
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@whatthef
The was a reason why I was asking about these Hangouts. And that was to help better the site. This is why, i said why not being in the creator of this site and have a open dialogue.
Asking about what goes on in hangouts and how to better the site is fine. Blamonkey offered to listen to your ideas in the hangout, but you never joined.
You say you've been reading a lot since you've joined this site, yet instead of making your first posts in the platform developments thread where you can interact with the site owner and exchange ideas, you come to this thread and act like a moron and go to this thread to bitch about Christmas songs.
It's pretty evident that you are misguided and apparently 3 months of lurking and reading the forums did not help you in figuring out where to go to get your ideas heard.
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@whatthef
Here the problem with your length post…I never mentioned me and blamonkey were going grocery shopping. I was just referring a outside place and that happen to be a supermarket.. And again I never said we were having another discussions other then what we were already talking about. Which is this site… Your little story is So irrelevant to what we are talking about. I feel sorry you actually wasted your time and effort for such a stupid little story which again has no Relevance...
lol, there is no problem with my post. In the thread, you were inquiring about the quality of discussion in the hangouts. In my example, you were inquiring about the quality of food being sold. You threw out a place like a grocery store as an example of where this conversation was taking place. I provided an analogous example of what the conversation would look like. In this thread, you talked a lot about the hangouts and what they offered(talks to better the site/world or nothing but trash), yet you never went into the hangout. In my example, you talked a lot about the product the store sold but never went inside... In both cases, you just kept repeating yourself and acting like an ass. Now, you are trying to say you had an adult-like conversation when that clearly isn't the case.
It like if was a democratic and i voted for Trump. You see it make no sense…
lol
I will tell you why it so funny. It Bec me and blamonkey were actually talking about this site and what was discussed in the hangout. NOT buying food. And not having disagreement rather this grocery store has good or bad food. You wanna see what was actually said?
You say that you were talking to him about the site/hangout. In reality, you were being a troll/difficult person as evident by these posts:
site/hangout=store
talks in the hangout=what the store offers
spending time in a hangout=spending money on food
You said it wasn't worth your time to go into the hangout unless the site owner was in there. It isn't worth your money going to a store that doesn't sell the 'best' foods. You are a joke lol
Now for the random guy part. Do you possibly think I care if you or anybody else made this thread? LoL. I don't care if you made this thread… Sure you come on this thread often and you are a regular. But I don't care. I only care who I reach out to. And that was blamonkey, why? Bec he made the link to the Hangouts and he was the last person who comments in the Hangouts section. You mad Bec you weren't invited to our conversation and all butt hurt Bec I didn't choose you to talk to. Well tough feculence...Grow up dude. Anyways I'm wasting my time talking to you because you don't contribution to this site at all. You obviously can't say or do anything useful to help this site. You a waste of a screen name on this site. Again you have no meaning of what me and blamonkey were talking about. That mean you were actually misguided. Not me.
"Well tough feculence...Grow up dude."
XD you are hilarious. Your last paragraph showcases that quite well.
XD you are hilarious. Your last paragraph showcases that quite well.
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@blamonkey
Tomorrow would be a good time, what say you?
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@whatthef
Yes I did instigated it. And yes I did start this conversation on here. But this conversation was only meant for him and me with the possibility of the creator of the site to join in. Not for a random persons like yourself to jump in with nothing to add to the conversation.
I like how you describe me as a random person. I created this thread and post in it and join hangouts with regularity. If anything, I am not a random person. You are much more fitting of the word random than I am Mr. "I lurk for 3 months and make my forum debut by shitposting".
Plus I'm not acting like a “whiny brat” you acting like a little pussy. I not the one who complained about oh you didn't say anything for 3 months. You did that all on your own. The only thing I said to you is this conversation wasn't suited for a small child like yourself. It was meant for adults. You the only one who got butt hurt… Because you were not invited into our conversation. You had to force your way into this conversation because you got butt hurt.
This conversation was meant for adults? That's not what it looks like. You started this off by insisting that conversations in the hangouts can fall into two groups only: trash talking and talks to 'better the world/site'. This post was not written by someone who was looking for an adult-like conversation with the site owner: www.debateart.com/forum/topics/99?page=6&post_number=134 What it does show is that you have a bad attitude and were never interested in an adult-like conversation. Try again XD
Imagine me and blamonkey were outside of a supermarket. And we were having this conversation. And then somebody I didn't even know jump into our conversation. How do you think I would react? Of course I wouldn't approve of this because I don't know you…Next time, please have some common courtesy...
Let's imagine you and him outside of a supermarket. What nearby people would hear is the following:
you: "So, what does this store sell? The 'best' produce or nothing but trash????"
blamonkey: "it's pretty average in nature, not a big name store but it has what you need"
you: "so it doesn't sell the best produce... That important to know. Nothing to enrich the diets of its customers. Way to go guys!!!"
you: "right, so you admit it sells nothing but trash."
blamonkey: "why not sit down so we could talk about something useful?"
blamonkey: "ok"
you: "Oh, now you invite me to sit down and talk. No thanks until you have some sort of guarantee that the store owner is apart of this"
you: "'ok' to you having the store owner come to your highly regarded conversation or an 'ok' that the store sells absolute trash?"
That is not an adult conversation. Common courtesy lacks in your inquiry to see what the nature of the hangouts is like. As shown above, your conversation was devoid of it, and now you act like you were well-intentioned and just wanted to talk to the owner of the site. This is why you are misguided.
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tell him what he's doing is against the rules he'll get you banned for threatening instead.
Whichever of you p***ies is the hypocrite who snitched on me and called me an abusive shit by quoting me without the context of the worse insults and pointing and laughing you guys had done to me beforehand, I couldn't care less about.
If anything, you could care less about who snitched on you. After all, you directly accused me of snitching on you even though I've never done that. All I did was engage with your crazed self in the forums XD
I never snitched on you to bsh, signed a formal petition to get you banned, or anything similar that you may believe.
You love to make claims, whether that's about your flat earth nonsense or regarding this stuff, and you always fail to back your claims up.
Try again madman XD
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@whatthef
So what. It doesn't give you the right to but in our conversation… Plus he had the option to PM me too.
You instigated the conversation and chose for it to take place here. You continued to reply to him even after he blocked you. If you value privacy and are so offended that people join a public conversation, PMs are the place for you.
He did have the option of Pm'ing you. However, he's not the one moaning about people joining the conversation and he's not the one who started this. You have your concerns about people joining the conversation, pick the medium that is best suited for you to communicate in, instead of acting like a whiny brat.
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tell him what he's doing is against the rules he'll get you banned for threatening instead.
As far as I'm concerned, I've never reported you or anyone else for anything, let alone threatening me with moderator action.
Try again madman.
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@whatthef
This 'conversation' between you and him is taking place in a public forum. You want privacy so much, you should have taken your grievances about the hangouts to a PM.
I'm trying to help the site unlike you guys doing nothing except talking thrash…
If you are trying to help, you are terribly misguided on how to do that. You got blamonkey to block you XD. Maybe you should do what you have been doing for the past 3 months and stay out of the forums until you figure out how to achieve the goal of helping the site.
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@whatthef
BTW, it wasn't very nice to have your block mechine on....
BTW, it isn't very nice for you to talk out of your ass. You create the account 3 months ago and for, whatever reason, you decide to start shitposting today.
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@Irrationalmadman, try again.
I am saying that you guys have a horrible track record of providing extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims and that no one should take you guys seriously because of that, and I just proved that no one should take you seriously. Despite having the reputation of you talking out of your ass, I gave you the opportunity to defend your beliefs about the world and to give the flat earth belief some credibility. You made some claims and some video referrals as evidence. I examined your claims and evidence and they're nothing but garbage. If you had a respect for evidence, you never would have linked them. However, it appears as though you too, like them, have no idea what an independent variable is... whether that's because you are ignorant, are a troll, or are deluded, who knows... all I know is that you did not establish any credibility of the flat earth belief.
Your tasks:
provide a video that shows distance alone causing mirage-like effects, not a video recorded in the baking sun beating down on a tennis court.
explain how, on a flat earth, the sun can cast shadows upwards onto clouds. I already did an experiment, referring to flat earth models for guidance on how the sun moves around, that demonstrates it is not possible for a mountain to cast a shadow, similar to the one I linked prior, onto a cloud. What it did show is that it is possible for that to happen on a spherical earth and not on a flat earth.
"It's not important, at all, that you associate me with some maniacs who will go and 'prove' that Australia is not real."
It is important. You guys follow a similar line of logic and arrive at bogus conclusions. As I said before, all they do is that they take it one continent further than you do. You call them maniacs, they call themselves smart people who are merely informing the world of another coverup. You can dictate where this conversation goes from here. Either you actually provide some decent evidence for your claims, or you can continue to provide nonsense and try to distance yourself from others who do the exact same thing you do.
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@bsh1
*joins the forum discussion by posting his opinion on a moderation decision
*moans and says to stop tagging him when you explain the decision to him
Some people on here are pretty funny. Whether or not that's intentional, who knows.
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Australia existing, and the fact that many flat earthers would deny that simple fact or call it into question, in a way disproves, or rather discredits or delegitimizes, your group. I asked for evidence regarding claims you make in this thread and you respond with nonsense. You showed a video that 'demonstrates' the effects of distance done on a tennis court in the sun/heat. It's so easy to provide legitimate evidence, yet you fail miserably. How about finding a video that takes place in the absence of temperature variations that produce mirages and then see if distance alone causes the same illusion. Finding a video done during overcast or similar weather ought to be easy where there is no temperature variation that causes mirages. Surely there's a flat-earther out there that would realize "Hey, let's actually test to see if distance alone causes this stuff instead of doing it in the baking sun where mirages and other temperature-variant induced visuals are present."
They don't offer good evidence to suggest that Australia doesn't exist, just speculation. You don't offer good evidence behind your claims, just nonsense. They take it one continent further than you do and that's really the only distinction between you two. So how you and that group conduct themselves is disqualifying, if you guys are vying to gain credibility or defend your ideas.
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@Zeichen
RM thinks your personality sucks but that you’re at least hot :P
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Joins and says nothing. When asked to unmute himself and speak up, he runs. Comical XD
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@Zeichen
Are you going to respond to the mentalist?
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@Zeichen
@blamonkey
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@Zeichen
Sounds like a plan. I wonder if RM will run from the hangouts like he did the last time I joined.
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I have said no such thing
No one said you did ;) all I said was that its people like you who spout complete flat earth nonsense. The only difference between flat-earthers who say Australia doesn't exist and you is that they take their conspiratorial hogwash one continent further.
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@Grugore
Some flat-earthers contend that Australia doesn't exist. RM is just another nutjob like the rest of them.
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lol, nope! I said earlier that our senses are tailored to and designed for dealing with relatively small objects right in front of us. Images of clouds, etc that I linked are easily discernable objects to a species that relies on upon and priorities vision. If you wanted to walk away with any knowledge of clouds, their formation, composition, etc, you'd have to forgo your senses and intuition and actually use some science to arrive at objective conclusions regarding their existence. Just because you can make sense of small objects in front of you does not make you qualified to make claims about the cosmos, which exists on a totally different scale than we are used to, using only your eyes and 'intuition'.
You want to make claims about stuff that our senses never evolved to deal with. You want to link videos that tell us to trust our senses as opposed to scientific evidence, etc. You can feel free to arrive at your own conclusions using your senses, but you'd be wrong in doing so. Reality does not have to make sense to you in order for it to be true.
"In trying to counter 'senses' you use an image of clouds and shadows, the irony is not lost on me."
I used an image of clouds and shadows as that is what anyone can observe, that's what I wanted an explanation for under the flat earth model. I, however, did not sit outside and speculate about what is going on millions of miles away or thousands of feet up. I also did not create a bogus, dishonest experiment to give credence to unfounded intuitions like the ones you linked me to where they wouldn't know what an independent variable was even if it bit them in the ass. Knowing the information that I know about the traditional solar system(globular Earth, etc) and the information I gained from watching flat earth videos(how the sun moves, etc), I then performed a small experiment to figure out as to why a shadow would be cast in such a way using the position of my phone's flashlight as the independent variable and keeping everything else constant. Turns out, a shadow being cast like that, on clouds above a mountain, can only happen on a globe when the sun sets below the horizon. You were invited to test it out yourself(I highly doubt you did).
"At the end of the day I don't give two shits if you think I'm mentally ill or not,"
At the end of the day, you're the one rambles on about conspiracy theories and never provides any GOOD evidence for them. The little experiment you linked me to on the tennis court was horseshit. How you portray yourself on here just shows how deluded you are. For example, you accused me of being conspiratorial here: www.debateart.com/forum/topics/99?page=3&post_number=69 Having a 'page=1' has no influence over whether or not people go to the second page and it's not indicative of anyone trying to hide something. If I didn't want the second page to be seen by others, why would I even link the thread? The only thing it shows is that I was navigating through the forums and, tbh, you are the only one on this site who would spend their time focusing on such nonsense like url formatting when it has no impact whatsoever.
"There must be a reason as to why he has a 'page=1' in the URL", the mentalist says to himself XD
At the end of the day, you're the one rambles on about conspiracy theories and never provides any GOOD evidence for them. The little experiment you linked me to on the tennis court was horseshit. How you portray yourself on here just shows how deluded you are. For example, you accused me of being conspiratorial here: www.debateart.com/forum/topics/99?page=3&post_number=69 Having a 'page=1' has no influence over whether or not people go to the second page and it's not indicative of anyone trying to hide something. If I didn't want the second page to be seen by others, why would I even link the thread? The only thing it shows is that I was navigating through the forums and, tbh, you are the only one on this site who would spend their time focusing on such nonsense like url formatting when it has no impact whatsoever.
"There must be a reason as to why he has a 'page=1' in the URL", the mentalist says to himself XD
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@The-Voice-of-Truth
It's fair to say that the hangout's best days are long gone. We just had a hangout with 4/5 people, which is typical these days.
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I pointed out the fact that our senses are not objective, that they are subject to illusions/distortions in perception, and should not form the basis of us rejecting scientific claims, theories, etc, as suggested in the video you posted. In 3 posts, you did not address that. In not addressing that, it's kinda difficult for you to link any other video that claims the earth is flat because X doesn't make sense.
Your second video uses a tennis court that is in the straight sun and that is experiencing heat haze. Find a video of an object disappearing on a tennis court at a distance while the weather is overcast. Or, as one commentator said, the experiment should be replicated on a cold day. If the illusion can be explained by distance alone, as you said it would be, the same should happen regardless of temperature decrease. You can not say that distance causes X to happen as does mirages(effects of heated air) and then post a video of a tennis court in the straight sun in an attempt to prove that distance is the one variable causing it.
Analogous example: Water(distance) is the cause of hypothermia(visual illusion), but due to the same exact reasons, sheer coldness(heat/mirages) that results in a person's body temp dropping below a certain point can cause hypothermia(visual illusion) too. *posts a video of a person getting hypothermia after being dunked in cold water. "See, water causes it".
As you can see, hopefully, the above is illogical. If one were to put a person in warm water, we would see that water is not the cause of hypothermia, which would lead one to think that temperature has something to do with it. For you, find a video that replicates the same experiment but on a cool day or whatever. Only then will it be considered as good evidence.
Note how the trees are perfectly visible at the beginning. As the camera moves below the hill[0:26], the tops of the trees become distorted and appear to be floating as they are now being viewed through the warm air that was heated by the ground... Point is: your video does not prove that DISTANCE/SQUASH/VISION LIMIT is a factor. Rather, it shows that things can be distorted when viewed through hot air heated by asphalt or similar that was sitting in the sun.
I still have not received a compelling flat earth explanation for the experiment I did, that shows quite clearly that in order for a mountain to cast a shadow on clouds above it, as shown in the picture, the sun needs to set below the horizon. Flat Earth videos clearly show that the sun is always above the Earth no matter how far away it is from one point on the Earth. I will sketch this out if need be... but the light hitting Earth is always doing so at a downwards angle... the angle of impact becoming less and less as the sun moves away from a reference point. It's never going to cast a shadow upwards with the same intensity made possible if the sun were to set below a horizon as the sun never sets on flat earth; it's always above it...
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@RationalMadman
"The difference between us is I need to insult you exactly 0 times or hurl a single word of abuse to your side to win. Your side only wins via intimidation and bullying via authority/genetic fallacy and ad hominem attacks."
XD ok... let's see what YOU are able to prove. I'll insult you later ;)
3:38 of your video: "to abandon your senses and everyday experiences in order to believe in science stuff is wrong..."
Our senses are not to be relied on as an objective measure of reality so it's wrong to say scientific ideas are incorrect because they don't make sense to you. Your senses evolved on and are tailored to the plains of sub-Saharan Africa and similar, designed to make sense of what our ancestors encountered there, not to understand space, celestial objects, etc on a level that wasn't needed. Rejecting scientific ideas on the basis of them not making sense to us is inherently wrong.
5:31-6:01: "when we zoom out, it appears to go down... zoom in, it goes up and is more visible"... "the sun doesn't go over any horizon... it's simply too far away to see when it's night time"
Ok, so this suggests that the sun is always visible, the horizon on a lake or ocean never obstructs it(relatively flat areas that the video creator used to demonstrate his point), it's just too far away to see and, by using various devices to increase our visual range, the sun will become visible once more.
Let's say that the sun disappears from your view with the naked eye at 6:00 pm. You use your video recorder, as the video does, to zoom in on the 'horizon'. Are you suddenly going to see the sun reappear as you've zoomed in on the horizon? 30 minutes pass and the video recorder can't zoom in any further and loses the sun... it's now too far away... are you going to break out various telescopes, increasing in power, every time the sun disappears from view? Shell out some serious money and you should be able to see the sun 24/7 if you have a strong enough telescope... buy the right telescope and range shouldn't be an issue.
I see this as a very simple experiment one can do at home, waiting until the sun 'disappears' over the horizon and then using a telescope or a video recorder to make the sun magically reappear by zooming in. After all, the sun never disappears over a relatively flat horizon, right?
What you can do is find yourself an area with a relatively flat horizon and record the sun's setting. When it disappears, zoom in and make it reappear. Upload your video for the world to see.
Also, the video does not disprove the picture I linked... the picture clearly shows the shadow the mountains cast on the clouds as the sun disappears below the horizon. Your video says the sun never disappears but merely gets too far away to be seen. A sunset caused by the sun's light fading due to range will not cause a shadow to be cast upwards.
This video[www.youtube.com/watch?v=gseNeL_Rung] serves the purpose of showing that the Earth is always BELOW the sun according to the flat earth model. All of the light that lands on the Earth is pointing downwards to some degree no matter the range. Distant mountains are not able to cast shadows that go upwards unless the sun goes below the horizon causing them to cast shadows that go up.
I literally just tested this myself with my phone's flash light and a bottle of hand sanitizer. Having the light source ABOVE the bottle, but merely moving it away results in a shadow that is cast on the ground(or my bed) that merely lengthens until it is subsumed by the increasing darkness of a light source that is becoming more distant. The light source never goes below the bottle/bed. As a result, the shadow never gets directed upwards. However, using the edge of the bed as a horizon on which the sun goes over and sets and using a notebook to function as the clouds, the bottle casts a shadow exactly like the mountains on the shadow.
Do it yourself... you will get the same results.
This video[www.youtube.com/watch?v=gseNeL_Rung] serves the purpose of showing that the Earth is always BELOW the sun according to the flat earth model. All of the light that lands on the Earth is pointing downwards to some degree no matter the range. Distant mountains are not able to cast shadows that go upwards unless the sun goes below the horizon causing them to cast shadows that go up.
I literally just tested this myself with my phone's flash light and a bottle of hand sanitizer. Having the light source ABOVE the bottle, but merely moving it away results in a shadow that is cast on the ground(or my bed) that merely lengthens until it is subsumed by the increasing darkness of a light source that is becoming more distant. The light source never goes below the bottle/bed. As a result, the shadow never gets directed upwards. However, using the edge of the bed as a horizon on which the sun goes over and sets and using a notebook to function as the clouds, the bottle casts a shadow exactly like the mountains on the shadow.
Do it yourself... you will get the same results.
Antartica... earlier in this thread, you said that "you can take a helicopter near it just high enough to avoid the harsh winds and to see barely into it".
So, essentially, one isn't really seeing anything of Antartica... it's a distant place never to be reached. Explain to me how there is a lot of documentation of Antarctica's wildlife if one can barely see into it let alone get to the place and study it up close? If nothing lives there, where do they live that would enable us to know so much about them?
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@Grugore
This image, and others like it, clearly show how the Earth is not flat. On a flat earth, the sun would not be able to cast a shadow like that on the clouds; however, since the Earth is spherical, it's possible for the sun to descend below the horizon and cast the mountain's shadow on the clouds. Flat-earthers are either trolls or mentally deranged(rational madman) who offer piss-poor evidence for their claims and who spout nonsense.
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@blamonkey
Tonight seems like a good time, will you be on later?
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@Polytheist-Witch
Good I work really hard on it.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Addressed this in the other topic some moron made after mine. Cause douches can't read.
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@blamonkey
Same, have to drive my grandmother to the store at 8:30 central lol, so I'll be on later as well
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@blamonkey
I was busy driving my grandmother around yesterday #seniordayout
I'll be able to go on later, so here's a link for that: hangouts.google.com/call/gtXm-DRC6QCK2kkogKqaAEEE
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@DebateArt.com
Don't feel ashamed. Poly has always had a terrible attitude, on DDO and on here, so she's completely deserving of it in the eyes of many.
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@Mopac
Well, I brought enough for the troll too
email-junk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/brought-some-pop-corn.jpg
email-junk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/brought-some-pop-corn.jpg
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@blamonkey
I can hangout tommorow night too. I can also hop on today though.
Tomorrow is good. We can begin the furry conversion tomorrow
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@blamonkey
Maybe tonight or tomorrow
What say you?
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