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@Dr.Franklin
@Sidewalker
YOu dont know what regressive means
It means taxing a lesser proportion of income from the rich. Which is true with sales tax in terms of dollars handed over to the government immediately, but not really true in terms of the actual burden of the tax (if it's implemented in a way that avoids loopholes).
Conceptually, they are the same, aren't they?
That's what I'm saying. Sales taxes are often criticized as a regressive tax, since poor people tend to spend more right away, so they pay more in taxes right away. Money exists to be spent, so in theory the rich would pay the tax eventually. It's possible the rich might buy from other countries with lower taxes or just have more time to find loopholes. Or they could wait for the tax to be lowered since they spend more on luxuries that they don't need to buy right away...that's why I specified a "perfect" sales tax. Because conceptually, it should function the same as an income tax.
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@Shila
Proportional to what?
Income
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@Dr.Franklin
if the person’s arguing that sales tax isn’t regressive because purchasing power is “abstract”
I didn't say purchasing power was abstract. You did. Measured in reduced purchasing power, a sales tax is proportional.
“Bro, I’m not saying inflation doesn’t suck — I’m saying it doesn’t change the fact that a sales tax hits a broke dude buying groceries harder than it hits a rich guy buying a boat. You can’t abstract your way out of math.”
That applies to proportional income taxes too. Again, doesn't negate what I said about a perfect sales tax being proportional.
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@Shila
You said it was an abstract concept.
Dr.Franklin said it was an abstract concept. I was explaining why that line of thought doesn't make sense.
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@Shila
Yes...that's the point I was making.
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@Dr.Franklin
I mean sure mathematical proportions of purchasing power don't change, but that's still an abstract way of looking at it.
More abstract than looking at the quantity of money? Inflation is a very real issue that impacts purchasing power. That's what gives money actual value.
Would you give me 100 dollars for 100 pesos? Since purchasing power is just an abstract concept?
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@zedvictor4
@Sidewalker
Same here, "Each of them buys 100 widgets. The poor person now has 80 widgets. The rich person now has 80 widgets", why don't they still have 100 widgets each?Was there a twenty-widget tariff perhaps?where did the other 40 widgets go?
Ok, I phrased that badly but now it's too late to edit. They each spent $100, which would have bought 100 widgets before.
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Sales taxes are commonly seen as regressive, since the poor spend a larger portion of their income in the short term. However, a long-term sales tax doesn't tax value from consumers at the point of sale, it taxes value proportionately as soon as it is implemented. If I have an income or capital gains worth $1,000 and the price of everything goes up 25%, then the value of my income and capital gains is reduced by 20%. That's because the value of income is determined by purchasing power.
Let's say a rich person has $1,000 and a poor person as $100. Sales tax is 25% on top of a normal widget price of $1 a widget. Each of them buys 100 widgets. The poor person now has 80 widgets. The rich person now has 80 widgets plus $900, which can buy 720 widgets. Hence, the total value of the rich person's money is still reduced by 20% (from the value of 1000 widgets to the value of 800 widgets).
The main disadvantage of this tax is that if the government gets the money from the rich person earlier, they can invest it in roads and such. Although if the rich person invests their money in the stock market, the government would profit from that investment by getting more in taxes later when a larger amount of money is spent. Also, a proportional tax, even a perfect one, still isn't regressive.
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@TheGreatSunGod
You usually ask them what they mean.
Not always feasible. Could be someone with millions of followers posting on X, for example. Soundbites don't tend to lend themselves to reasonable discussion.
you are here arguing against a position which I am not sure if anyone even holds on this site
I'm arguing that they're being unclear and not really making a fair comparison.
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@RemyBrown
I don't care about dead Gazan children
Killing children is a violation of the non-aggression principle, so libertarians would care.
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@TheGreatSunGod
So if someone says "I support Israel but don't support Palestine" or vice versa, how do you know which government they are talking about?
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@TheGreatSunGod
When people talk about these issues, they usually talk of crimes commited by Israel government and military
Some people talk about crimes committed by Hamas (the government of Gaza)...
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@cristo71
Jewish people should have a homeland of their own
And "homeland" will lend itself to all sorts of interpretations, from a Jewish-only ethnostate to a country with religious freedom where Jews aren't persecuted. Expect others to pick the least charitable interpretation.
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@TheGreatSunGod
Strawman, as the above wasnt even a comparison between two countries, but a position on the Israeli government
Then why just say "Israel" and "Palestine" without specification? It's unnecessarily vague. You could be referring to the Israeli government or the Palestinian government or both or neither.
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I've seen a good number of moderates say they are pro Palestine but anti Israel, meaning pro Palestinian populace but anti Israeli government. Comparing countries on these terms basically means nothing, because you can hold governments responsible for a lot more than a collective populace. Pretty much every government has committed human rights violations, likely recently. But a nation's populace includes children, and you can't blame them for much.
So obviously, that's not a one to one comparison. By that standard, most people are pro-Germany and anti-US regarding World War II, since the German populace included children and Holocaust victims, while the US government was bombing civilians and locking the Japanese in internment camps. But if you flip it and compare the US populace to the German government? Suddenly the US looks a lot better.
I know we use [country x] as shorthand for the government of that country and not everyone in it, but at this point people need to start specifying what they mean if they're going to switch back and forth in the same sentence.
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@Lunatic
@whiteflame
@Mharman
I intend to participate, but the tournament recommends selecting a backup as well. Luna, do you want to be the backup or is there someone else who would be better?
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@TheGreatSunGod
Now I want to see your YouTube videos...have you linked to them before?
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@TheGreatSunGod
See above. Of course, this would likely tank your public reputation. Maybe another anonymous account?
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@Sir.Lancelot
do you support the decision for Best.Korea to give up trolling?
I've never heard BK say something and been at all sure it wasn't a troll. Might be interesting to see. We'd need proof of sincerity, though, like a link to a public social media account stretching back several years. Then we'll know his actual personality.
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@Sir.Lancelot
Savant, can you share your thoughts?
I don't know if I believe BK would give up trolling, but I kind of want to see what happens if they are given mod powers.
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@TheGreatSunGod
Now we need a TheGreatSunGod "What I could do for you as a moderator" post.
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@Earth
@Vader
@whiteflame
@WyIted
The Earth push was derailed without getting information
Earth is probably my top pick, so my vote stays on him for now. Had a chance to give information, and he posted list of reads without really explaining why he town red or scum read anyone. Earth doesn't post a lot, but it rarely feels like he's this lazy.
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@Earth
@whiteflame
I'm willing to set aside issues with That2's claim until I can get some clarification on how the role aligns with yours.
Yeah, willing to provide that later, though probably best if I wait a while.
VTL Earth for character claim. I know he's against it, but it's either get some information or go for a lynch.
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@whiteflame
Points about that2's behavior are all fair. I'll say again that their role makes a lot of sense given what I now about mine, but it's possible scum have some information or fake claim mechanic that allowed them to claim this role (although I will say it seems unlikely, and I think it's too subtle for Casey to account for). It's a significant enough thing that I'm inclined to overlook behavioral weirdness, at least for now. I'm more inclined to go after Earth, if only because I don't have any reasons to town read him.
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@Earth
@whiteflame
@That2User
@iamanabanana
I think I can say this much without revealing anything too significant...based on what Casey just confirmed about my role, I am pretty sure that2 is telling the truth. Just makes too much sense mechanically to be a coincidence.
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@whiteflame
I get that you're pretty widely townread due to the softclaim issue, but we still need to hear from you.
I'm town reading that2 right now. Claim makes sense, and that2 acted way more suspicious when we were a scum team. Maybe a scum partner recommended that role claim, but I don't see that2 coming up with that fake claim under a ton of pressure.
However, presuming that2 is town, scum will probably target them tonight, so we might lose a day phase even if we don't lynch that2. I recommend we tell town protectives to be on that2 and hope for the best, but scum might have a workaround given that role claims are said to be punished.
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@WyIted
If you're going to put a vote on Vader, say what you're trying to accomplish. Are you pushing for a lynch or a claim or what?
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@Lunatic
Well, without asking for soft claims, it's kind of hard to put pressure on people.
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@WyIted
It's to en even lesser degree than when I was hosting rape battles
So multiple people, including you, have gotten negative feedback for posting controversial stuff. Seems like a lot of people don't really see a difference. Why single out Best.Korea?
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@WyIted
You can compare it to AdreamofLiberty's post on bestiality which though almost as morally repugnant had the opposite response of the community. I urge anyone who doesn't understand why Best.korea is getting negative feedback to compare his arguments to ADOL's, found here.
ADOL got a ton of negative feedback as well though, possibly even more than Best.Korea:
- "You're a creep dude and you know it. The world will forever think you're a freak."
- "They lack the tender ministrations of a judicial apparatus willing to punch an 8mm hole in their skull."
- "I don't want to ridicule him and dig deep into whatever trauma(s) and memories caused this."
- "Well that certainly goes a long way towards explaining why your conclusions are so whack."
- "I do not know who is worse, this clown defending humping animals or Best.Korea defending pedophilia. Both are very mentally disturbed and should seek professional help."
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@WyIted
There may or may not be mechanics in play which punish claiming characters and/or roles, so claim at your own risk!Sergei Witte huh?See why hints are a bad ideal?
Well...oops.
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I'll soft claim as well. My character was involved in finance and tried (it looks like unsuccessfully) to promote peace in different areas. I hope this isn't too specific, but if it is, it probably doesn't matter. My character alone doesn't give away too much.
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@Greyparrot
struggle to achieve decisive outcomes in places like Afghanistan and Syria
That's because the bar for decisive outcomes has gotten higher. It's not like countries throughout history were good at ensuring human rights, turning dictatorships into functional democracies, or fighting in an "ethical" way. They didn't care about those things. By historical standards, America's military capability blows everything else out of the water. Put America against any other country, past or present, in an all-out fight to the death with no nukes, and the US will hold out better.
the Pentagon failing audits year after year
Inefficient and wasteful? Sure. That doesn't stop them from hitting the hardest. The gap in budget and technology is too great. Also compare to Russia and China, both of which have a lot of corruption and incompetence. The issue with audits is that democracies actually have standards they can fail. Kim Jong Un is accountable to no one, but his military is significantly weaker.
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@Greyparrot
If we had the capability to win in Afghanistan, we wouldn't be talking about why it was worth or not worth to surrender.
America did win. Then they got bored and left. Killing a bunch of Middle Easterners is something the US military has never failed at.
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@Greyparrot
Some military capability
Military capability has nothing to do with whether the war is worth fighting.
Just because the U.S. exists and is powerful and spends a lot of money doesn’t mean it’s the reason something didn’t happen, especially when we’ve deliberately avoided direct military engagement.
Ukraine is fighting with a lot of foreign weapons. You can assign a big portion of Russian deaths to American equipment.
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@Greyparrot
Doesn't matter to me. We shouldn't pay one dime to support or oppose such heroism.
The point is that we can, and for a fraction of our annual budget. Swagnarok was implying that America has a deficient military capability.
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@Greyparrot
Russia can and will never take all of Ukraine.
Maybe not. Didn't stop them from throwing away a bunch of lives and money.
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@Greyparrot
You mean the Donbas, and they had that area taken in about 5 months and held it longer against Maidan aggression than 3 years
A far cry from the whole of Ukraine, and they have boots on the ground while the US doesn't.
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@Swagnarok
Stalin's old maxim that "artillery is the god of war" hasn't lost its edge just yet.
The point isn't really that artillery is obsolete, it's that differences in quality often matter more than quantity. Even looking at quantity, the US is sending Ukraine a lot of older equipment, which means that producing shells doesn't matter as much for getting a head start. Also account for the US having a much larger yearly budget, and Russia has a big economic disadvantage. So while the US might be spending more, metrics like GDP (7th in the world) per capita or total revenue (1st in the world) paint a much more favorable picture.
High-end stuff like tanks and fighter jets have been strangely irrelevant this whole conflict
Not totally irrelevant. You've got Abrams tanks, and the main challenge to those are drones. Also Patriot Air Defense Systems, which don't use traditional shells. So a lot of newer technology pushing the tide of the war in either direction.
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@TheGreatSunGod
debt to GDP is highest ever
Debt to GDP doesn't matter as much as standard of living. One reason being that GDP is an annual metric while debt isn't. Another being that the US has trillions in infrastructure and a huge tax base, allowing it to sustain a large national debt.
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@TheGreatSunGod
Russia alone manages to drain both EU and USA together.
Not true. Russia is spending much more relative to their GDP. The US is barely feeling the effects of the war in comparison.
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@Swagnarok
My point was to illustrate how feeble the US military industrial complex is despite its bloated budgets. If this were the middle of WW2 our factories would be popping out as many shells in like a month as the US can make in 2 years.
WW2 was a century ago. In the current conflict, number of shells clearly doesn't equal military strength. I know some of Obama's takes aged badly, but his point about "horses and bayonets" seems relevant here.
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@Swagnarok
Well, at present Russia's factories are churning out 3x as many artillery shells as the US and Europe combined, and reportedly 10x as many tanks as us.
Yep, that's why they conquered Ukraine in just a few months.
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@Owen_T
I'm doing Policy Debate by the way.
Learn to talk fast.
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@Owen_T
Probably depends on what kind of debate. Policy? Lincoln-Douglas? Or something else?
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@TheGreatSunGod
Any person can make such post.
Well, why did you make that post?
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