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@Dr.Franklin
Sure. When it comes to economic disputes, everyone's got a different idea of what the "teams" are. Just don't expect the white middle class to be as loyal to you as you are to them.
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@WyIted
I just know supply and demand. I know economists tend to think things can grow indefinitely and I disagree.
This is probably our biggest point of disagreement. With just supply and demand, how do you account for long-term growth, development of technology over time, etc? Why are workers much more efficient today than in centuries past? In the short-term, you can optimize the allocation of widgets, but some allocations allow for more technological growth and efficiency in the future.
I assume that's why housing prices are rising. An increase of the population due to immigration since we are below replacement levels, means more demand for less supply so now it cost 500k to move into a shack
I'll concede that as a case where the market doesn't adapt as fast in the short-term if the housing market isn't managed well. That said, there are countries that manage to sustain the increase, Israel being one of them. And again, it's a mixed bag in terms of winners and losers. Long-term population growth allows cheaper labor for construction and more apartments/houses/living quarters to be built as a result. And people who own homes can get a better price for them in the short-term. If the value of real estate plummets, there will also be winners and losers, and people will complain that the economy is doing terribly. I know you can cherry-pick the effects of immigration (especially short-term) and find negative impacts for some people, I'm just not convinced those impacts remain negative in the aggregate.
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@Shila
@WyIted
I think there is a fair criticism that these H1b1 visas drive down wages to a certain extent.
A lot of recent studies have challenged this assumption in the fields where immigrants work [1] [2]. And wages tend to go up in fields dominated by natives due to complements in production. Plus, most Americans own stock or benefit from lower prices, so driving down wages isn't a bad or good thing for everyone, it depends on what your field is. Then there's the long-term benefit of economies of scale and increased aggregate demand.
Is there actually a shortage of engineers when you hear of grads struggling to get work?
No, nor is a surplus an inevitable consequence of immigration. The number of jobs is not fixed, and there's no visible cap on innovation besides the labor force. There's no reason companies can't keep inventing new technology for the foreseeable future, or that people can't start companies to match the increase in labor.
Elon Musk has laid off more than 6,000 people at Twitter
And they can still apply to work at another company. Elon isn't preventing that.
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@Shila
Elon Musk made all his money in America. Now he wants to tell Americans how to live.
He hasn't prevented any American from applying for a job or even working for another company.
Americans made money working for Musk. Now they want to tell him who to hire.
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@Dr.Franklin
I value the white middle class more than foreigners. Period.
There's the "working class unity" I keep hearing about. Abandoned at the drop of a hat.
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@RemyBrown
Keeping criminals off the streets benefits society as well.
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@Dr.Franklin
underpaid and overworked
Compared to conditions in India, the wages they get in America are very good. If you value the white middle class more than foreigners, then say that. Don't pretend like you're going on some moral crusade on behalf of foreign laborers.
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@WyIted
recent x post by Elon Musk
We're surprised that someone born in another country is hiring people from other countries? May as well say all of Elon Musk's American employees are stealing jobs from South Africans.
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@Shila
I'm less opposed to people wasting their own money than I am to the government wasting my money.
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@Shila
The point is receiving a lot at once without earning it.
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@Shila
receiving his inheritance in small payments
His inheritance was not a small payment. He had business connections and a huge company handed to him, plus a huge network and name recognition to prop him back up through his bankruptcies.
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@Shila
No, Trump's case is like if someone won the lottery multiple times and kept going broke each time. A large windfall at once does not lead to responsible spending.
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@Shila
But he received large lump sums...that's my point, it wasn't like $1,000 a month.
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@Shila
So my premise was repeatedly confirmed?
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@Shila
Probably because he inherited a lump sum of cash all at once.
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@FLRW
We should take money from the rich so that ALL children get $100,000 when they turn 18.
If handing people a huge lump sum of cash all at once solved poverty, lottery winners wouldn't go broke.
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@Shila
Your ideas don’t deal with the problems of distraction facing students and teachers.
Correct, solving problem A doesn't solve problem B. It goes the other way too. Resolving distractions doesn't give everyone access to the best teachers at the best universities.
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@Shila
Because they cannot deal with the distractions which reduce their effectiveness.
So solving problem A doesn't solve problem B? Okay, but you can apply that to literally anything. You have to start somewhere, and there's no reason my idea is a worse place to start than your idea.
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@Shila
Even good teachers have to deal with the distractions.
Ok, but I didn't say this would reduce all distractions. You're bringing up a factor my plan wasn't intended to address. Why would improving teacher quality and reducing price not be good things in their own right?
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@lacr3000
AI for grading
Well you can use the increased revenue to hire more TAs.
The problem with education in America is the distraction students face.
That's not the only factor that impacts educational quality. The quality of teachers is a major factor as well, for example.
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@cristo71
Exactly. Math is relative, just like space and time.
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@Shila
That's a small change and will take a while to actually take effect. Jumping a rank takes a while, and much of that is measuring the effects of primary and elementary education, not education in specialized fields.
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@cristo71
@Shila
Come on, guys. Do I need a /s or something?
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@cristo71
Socialist economies don't follow math, so they aren't limited by it.
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@Shila
Only 1% of people are part of the top 1%. I'd call that a failure.
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@Shila
Consolidating all the best resources and teachers in one curriculum and giving everyone access to it might improve the education standard. Also lowering the cost of college would allow more people to attend. Those are likely indirect effects of my proposal.
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Under capitalism, only 1% of people can be part of the top 1%. Embrace socialism, where 100% of people can be part of the top 1%.
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@Shila
No, but the policy might if it were implemented.
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@Shila
America ranks 48 in education in the world. None of your discussions will improve the quality of education in America.
How does the second sentence follow from the first?
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@lacr3000
test something like this on a statewide basis
Yeah, that's probably a good idea.
overrun with applications
If they accept everyone and give virtual degrees, this would be a bit like Facebook having millions of users. Applications wouldn't need to be evaluated to the extent they are now. I concede that the cost of evaluating students or office hours might go up, but that should be covered by the increased revenue while still leaving room for costs to go down, since the cost of in-person classes remains the same.
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@lacr3000
this would presumably put tons of people in a ton of debt
Increased supply tends to decrease price given standard supply/demand curves. I'm willing to allow that this market isn't perfectly competitive, but I don't think that's enough to make increased supply not lower the price. The costs to the collage are basically the same but they can now spread those costs over a larger customer base.
devalue degrees from more prestigious institutions
The total value (quality education) is going up, it's the relative value that's the concern. That value is largely artificial, much like social clout. I'd honestly rather separate education from certifications; that is, have one party focus on educating and a different party focus on evaluating how good each student is. Then colleges would be chosen based on quality of education rather than prestige.
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@WyIted
I'd expect you of all people to support a group that persecutes gay people and prevents women from talking.
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@RemyBrown
My sole concern is cost.
Then cut government spending to zero. That minimizes cost, and you don't care about anything else.
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@Best.Korea
They can do those things out of prison, too, but they're not surrounded by armed guards.
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@RemyBrown
They can still reoffend.
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@cristo71
So, how is an “affirmative claim” distinct from simply a “claim”?
It's a redundant phrase, now that I think about it. I guess something like "X is false" would be a claim but not an affirmative claim.
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@Shila
a statement
Statements can be false
make sure your words of affirmation are genuine
This implies that affirmations can be false but advises that they shouldn't be.
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@Stephen
here is another affirmative claim
That's several affirmative claims.
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@Shila
A lie is still an affirmation, just an incorrect one.
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@cristo71
Eh, I think the idea here is that their position regarding deities makes no claims regarding deities— not that they never make any claims about ANYTHING.
Well, it wouldn't be a trick if it didn't involve derailing the conversation.
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@cristo71
opposite of an affirmative claim
Probably another affirmative claim. Like "It's night" vs "It's daytime."
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@Shila
A doubt isn't an affirmative claim, but the idea is to trick them into saying something beyond just a doubt. Like "My name is x."
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@cristo71
Any statement that can be true or false.
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@Shila
No, but saying "a doubt is not an affirmation" is an affirmation that a doubt is not affirmation.
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@Stephen
The -ok- was an acknowledgement that I had read your statement, not that I necessarily agreed with it.
Well, that's definitely an affirmative claim.
The trick is in the part of my quote you cut out. Like within the first few sentences of my post, I explain that you can trick atheists and agnostics into making affirmative claims. For example:
"I don't make affirmative claims."
"That's petty and unfair."
"My name is Bob."
"The -ok- was an acknowledgement that I had read your statement, not that I necessarily agreed with it."
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@Stephen
Close, but "ok" is an affirmative claim. Sort of.
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Agnostic atheists often say that their position makes no affirmative claims, hence they don't have any burden of proof. But that's where you trap them. "I didn't make an affirmative claim" is itself an affirmative claim. It's a claim about something you didn't do. You might say this is petty and unfair. But "that's petty and unfair" is also an affirmative claim. "I don't believe x" is also an affirmative claim. Maybe you do believe x and you're lying. At this point, maybe you're tired of having a pedantic conversation about the burden of proof. But "I'm tired of having a pedantic conversation" is also an affirmative claim.
If all else fails, just ask them their name. "My name is Bob" is an affirmative claim, and now you're both in the same boat. The way to avoid getting trapped yourself is to phrase everything in the form of a question. Asking "why do you beat your wife?" or "how can you prove x?" isn't making an affirmative claim, so it doesn't come with a burden of proof. Just ask "how do you know?" to every statement they make, and pretty soon they'll have made a hundred-plus affirmative claims while you only have the one.
Unfortunately, I made a bunch of affirmative claims in this post, so it's too late for me. But maybe someone else can make use of this information.
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