Speedrace

Marvel Cinematic Universe Heroes Mafia 

A legendary mafia game, currently with the record for most posts, and almost beat the DDO record! Insane!

Pie has been pushing a policy on you for half the day phase and you've had a substantial wagon for half the day phase: you know the half wagon you kept ignoring as not a big deal? Now your acting ignorant of it? BS.

So you lied about your role and now reveal your real role but don’t give a justification of any sort. Why should we believe you now? You knew there would be a policy on you are some point. Why claim PGO in the first place?

Bears OMGUS is his only contribution to the game! LITERALLY HIS ONLY CONTRIBUTION THIS GAME lol. So how badly do you really scum read OMGUS or is that all convoluted BS?

I question the motives of anyone who wagons without providing their own reasons, that's hardly the same as OMGUS. I haven't been adovcating the lynch of every person who has voted for me the way Bear has. You refusing to acknowledge bear doing is and forgiving him for it is sus af.

3 votes is a lot, and is plenty of reason to respond to. That's about where I was at when I started getting frustrated. Your air of confidence comes from knowing the day phase is ending soon and you think it unlikely to happen, but that doesn't erase that their is mounting pressure on you that you are not responding to similarly to the last game.

What changed? because as of last night I was. You didn't mention these other users until we were getting close to not getting a lynch.

No lol me thinking that outing a doctor is protown (even though I said it's anti-town) has no bearing on me thinking That1User is Doc or town

You make no sense.

Where is that same passion at being lynched? He seems more calm and collected, and is even defending town actions in the game he was town and called them all idiots! Now he is defending that they made correct choices in his responses to me. There is a stark contrast to how he has played previously.

1. Hypocrisy! Dude has consistently said I was OMGUS'ing everyone who has voted for me, which is objectively just not true; But secondly The whole reason I am really pushing bear is because Bear hardcore omgus'ed me for pointing out 1 scummy thing he did!  Why does speed care about me "OMGUSing" but not bear? Ironically I actually see a world where bear is town and Speed is scum, and speed using bear as an avenue to try and get what he feels is an easier lynch on me by proxy of using MisterChris's bias here, rather than him actually buddy-buddying Bear. Though it is very possible he is doing that. The fact he doesn't even read bear except for a fake @ss soudning town read on him for the reason I suspected him doesn't help his case. The read feels convoluted, a way to double down after I have proven him wrong. Which leads into the second reason:

2. Speed behavior at his won wagon seems calm and calculated; He has an air of seemingly knowing he won't get lynched, and as such is why he isn't fighting his lynch. Him and GP are the two biggest lynch options right now and he doesn't even seem phased, and has put minimal effort into steeering the lynch elsewhere the way he did as town in the previous game.

3. This feels more calm and calculated. His reads don't seem broad, and all he has done is double down on me, seemingly not scum hunting or looking into anyone else behaviorally. This doesn't feel like town speed.

oh you mean that1user! I don't see where you scum read him, I'll go look. But prima facie that makes no sense for you to town read bear for ousting him if you scum read that1user, since bear was claiming he was doing it to help town, and if you agree with what he was doing was protown, then you should have believed that sakura claim was more likely town.

Scum Reads:

4. That1User - slight scum read because of this post where she says thank you to Bear for saying to protect her because she might be doctor, yet she doesn't claim doctor...that's suspicious to me

The fact that not a single user has independent reads on bearman just makes me suspect him more after the attempts to silence my opinion by dis-regarding it as tunnel vision.

I've already mentioned it wasn't the strongest evidence to say he is scum; The fact that he reacted to poorly to that pressure was what was scummy. Also the fact that he finally admitted it was a mistake in a reply, but defended his action at the same time was also the scummier part. 

Chris, speed, water you can dis-agree with that specific read. Do you not have any other read on the man though? I heard people saying he was being helpful to town, can you elaborate on this? How has he been helpful? The fact that he listed a bunch of characters showing he has theme knowledge? Is that quite literally it? Please. I would really like some enlightenment. 

im not lurking im lazy like pattern said

1. Always claims DP1 in his first post, first time he ever failed to do that was when he was scum

i agree with parrot man negativity is like for monday or a thrusday it aint for no tuesday lol

Your comments are very negative for a Tuesday.

Also my justification is out of my control. You can take it up with Supa and blame him after you mislynch me.

That's a niche thing on your part, and I got  a lot of negative feedback about that playstyle, because it made the game no fun when people could auto detect if I was town or not.

Speed: Lets use town to check peole.

Also Speed: Let's kill off a town checker cause I don't like quiet people on DP1 who don't engage in theatrical DP1 drama.

i never actually lynched him when everyone was hopping on the wagon i voted for him later on cuz he was wasting our time ( still kinda is ) 

that being said i pulled my vote off of him cuz GP is our best lead rn 

ill stand by my vote earlier but patterns acting as if i scumread him and was hopping on a bandwagon when all i did was VTNL an said that if i had to choose between him or u itd be him 

Linking his is more efficient than typing out the exact same stuff lol. And the vote stuff is valid, just not allowed by the COC. As long as you can clearly explain the reasons if directly asked, you're justified.

To the bolded: But not many people actually do that. Both in debating and in mafia. I've asked multiple people to justify themselves this game. So far your among very few that have.

Look at skittlez, I asked him to justify a read and he doubled down and voted me because of it. Btw I don't see you point to OMGUS at that haha.

I'm saying that whether or not it was anti-town is irrelevant because it's towny. And he did eventually explain his motivations.

Explaining motivations= not guilty? 

If you become a cop I'd love to be your local robber.

Cop: "Sir did you just steal that thing?"

Robber: "Yeah but you see I really needed that thing, so ya know..." 

Cop: "Ah okay, well now that I know your motivation I guess your free to go."

These are the facts:

Ousting doctors is bad for town.

Bear, not being brand new, should know this.

Bear doubles down and defends his action.

Bear never directly admits his mistake, but later in replies refers to it as a mistake.

Why does Bear have an excuse to do an anti-town thing? Would you let me get away with something like that?

I've read literally everything so try again.\

If you have, then you mis-understand what aggression is.

Pattern is a logic spren who doesn't understand human emotions, so I must have been roleplaying badly if I came off as pompous. There were certain points I was literally just qouting things from the book in situations where it humorously seemed like it fit haha.

OMGUS doesn't necessarily have to involve voting, it can be just general scum reading. You've scum read literally every person who has said something negative about you and a lot of them have given reasons.

This is objectively not true. Again, not every response to someone is necessarily suspecting them lol. 

I don't usually self vote either, but I was feeling at a boiling point after the way the last few games have gone. And now I am genuinely more okay with the idea of a lynch of myself anyway. At least someone gave me the time of day and responded to something. Even though you are wrong, I am happy dying in circumstances where I got to say my piece and can confidently say it was listened to and reasoned with. I wouldn't judge you as hard in the endgame.

I asked you why you were voting me several times, remember? Your response to me was "For the third time, read this post" and thus the circle spins back around....

Yeah TheFlyingSpaghettiMonster really had it out for me in the gene pool.

There's actually very few set ups where you can actually consider thirdparties balanced. You've probably noticed I rarely put them in games I mod, andthat is why. They really only make sense in small game situations like 6 playercounts, 1 maf, 1 3rd, and 4 towns. And mods should count them towards townnumbers when factoring the win imo for best balance. All that aside, we have noway of knowing how a mod will design a game with thirds. Your own game, the oneI wasn't lynched in, the balance made even less sense as it allowed for like 1mislynch. Not shaming you for an old game, just pointing out that most modsdon't really consider the balance implications when designing the game. Theyhave a character that to them makes most sense as 3p and just throw it in andhope for the best.

The part with you quoting town? Yeah didn'thappen. Supa is the only one who mentioned anything about numbers not makingsense (again refuted above) and literally everyone else just voted. 

If it was justified, I'd have liked to have heard why during the game, not after it ;-) Also supa was a hypocrite that game. In Stormlight he got mislynched dp1 before he even knew he had a wagon. He had a right to be pissed off there. But then went and did it to me in dp1 of the very next game. Remember he was "gut" reading me without a reason from DP1 based on a ridiculous argument (that was wrong btw) about mod psyching how roles were set up. 

All of his "behavior" arguments were unsubstantiated 100%. Saying you read someone based on behavior and not explaining what that behavior is, isn't a behavioral read. It was a gut read. How do you respond to a gut read logically? You can't, and in general lynching people off gut reads alone is not encouraged the same way vigging people on them isn't. 

Most mods usually mod 3ps as guilty as status qou, though I like drafters method. I think common understanding is 3p = guilty regardless of intent.

Also, warren literally says this: "For what it's worth I have [put third parties] in 10 player games before."

Which is what I was saying...

You're probably thinking of Pie. I'm generally pretty against policy lynches in general. I think the only one I've pushed is policy lynching troll behavior like greyparrots.

Like I said, accounting for 3p's your generally gonna have badly balanced matches. That doesn't mean a mod is or isn't likely to include one in their games.\

People didn't say that. They just voted. You can assume they agreed with his reasons, but thats an assumption, and you know what they say about assumers...

And you wouldn't have cared if you were wrong lol.

That's even worse of a problem. That's "Bearman" logic. Bearman was lynching me in this game saying even if I was town he was justified. The mindset of "I'm not gonna learn from being wrong because I don't care" Is a slippery slope that leads to making repeat mistakes.

The point is I would have liked to have been given the time of day and on almost any game of DDO I would have. The fact that players are too lazy to even care to think about why someone would or wouldn't do something and just vote on something based on face value says a lot about the current mafia community. 

Post game, not in game.

The ratio was off from the start what you mean lol.

And if the factors weren't different well then you would've been lynched because logic pointed towards you being scum

But I wasn't.... OH sh1t see what I did there ;-)

At this point, I'm willing to give Pattern the benefit of the doubt, and I encourage anyone with investigative powers to investigate him if we're still worried. I think our resources are much better spent scouting out users who have been under the radar.

As Pattern said: "An active town will eat itself in the presence of inactive scum. Inactives should always be pressured."

So, I urge you two to call off the nuclear warfare... For now, anyway. If new evidence emerges, we can discuss... But I see little use in continuing drilling that rabbit hole further.

Mmm so if I go to vote on a debate, and I agree with someone else's vote, can I just vote and say "yeah, what he said!"? That's like the definition of bandwagoning. 

You say you agree with so and so, then point out what specifically you agree with in your own words. You literally linked Misterchris's entire block of text.

I already mentioned you in a post and explained why I think that it was towny of him to do that (it's possible for it to be anti-town and towny simultaneously).

Are you trying to say it fits in with bears meta to do something anti town where you wouldn't treat another player the same? If so that's fine and I buy the argument somewhat. But Bear's reaction to me pointing out that he did a bad thing was the scummier part of the exchange. 

Read this post after I voted him: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4683-naruto-mafia-dp1?page=10&post_number=243

He says I was accusing everyone, rather than try to logically explain his motivations and persuade me to reconsider. 

The only person I was actually aggressive with was croc/bearman when I mentioned they multi account and still can't win a mafia game. That's literally all the aggression lol. Why does everyone see large blocks of text, refuse to read them, and just interpret any back and forth as "aggressive"?

Or do you mean the fact that I am actually pressuring people is aggressive? If so that's ridiculous, and if anything a town tell. Town have to figure out who scum is so pressuring people for reactions is the only way to do that. If I was really aggressive, I've had several opportunities to join your or grey's wagon, and I'm still opting to no lynch. Kind of the opposite of aggressive. 

All this aside... Why is "being aggressive" a scum tell? Even if I was 'aggressive' I tend to notice aggression comes from more of a place of honesty.

Your understanding of OMGUS is not correct. If you assume I have jumped on the wagon of every person who has voted me, that's just wrong. I do have an expectation for every player that if they are going to vote, they justify that vote. If someone jumps on a wagon without justifying said vote, I will naturally lean toward suspecting their motives. Why is challenging someone to explain a read "Omgus"? There are certain players I expect this behavior out of. People like you, pie, chris, or ragnar I expect more from.

I'll concede this, and my vote is still on myself. I don't like doing it in general but when I did this it seemed my position was pretty hopeless and if you were in my spot I think you would feel similar. People kept piling on my wagon without justifying it (yourself included) and if the game is going to be played like that, I'd honestly rather mafia win and keep winning games until town decide to fix this behavior that has unfortunately become commonly accepted.

Again, it's not the lynch that's frustrating, it's the lack of knowing why I am being lynched. You for example didn't say any of these things when you first voted for me. If you had maybe I would have been less frustrated. I have the expectation of people to put an effort into the the game. I love mafia and I hate to see the gameplay dwindle regardless of my affiliation.

Frustrated gameplay for me is not affiliation related, and you've played enough with me that this should be evident. Remember office mafia? That was the epitome of frustrated Lunatic, and you used that to your advantage. 

Again, MCU mafia. Why was I allowed to live and help the town there? Supa, supa, supa. You are generally a nice guy, but don't try to deny you aren't as lazy as the rest of them son.

2. Last game, Disc lying directly told me that he was almost definitely scum. In this case me being PGO doesn't tell me who is scum lol so I can't say who to lynch next DP.

Disc actually had the telescope though lol

Why was there no reason to be a 3rd party? How could you know that?

I get snarky when talking to brick walls. I do that as town and scum.

Im bald, and somehow supa had me wanting to pull my fvcking hair out lol.

Dude kept saying "I know you scum" without substantiating it.

And everyone was bandwagoning him.

If I was actually 3rd party you guys had wasted a lynch.

It's not the lynch that pissed me off, it was the extreme lack of dialogue.

The whole point of the gambit was going to be talking my way out of it like I did with the miller claim.

If I heard plenty of solid reasons about why I was scum and still got lynched I would have been okay with it.

That lynch would have happened regardless of if I was or wasn't actually 3rd party because it was the easy option. At least in your game I was able to help town afterwards.

Feel free to explain why at any point. Literally any point. When I last asked you, you just linked misterchris's reasons, which is a bandwagon. I also pointed out the hypocrisy in MisterChris's reasons, since he literally agreed with me that ousting a potential doc was anti-town and which was why he didn't do it himself. Bear plays like a noob, sure, but he isn't one. He's played in several games and knows that behavior is scummy. Maybe it didn't make as much sense coming from pattern who you supposed was new, but do you see why an experienced player finds his actions scummy? If not please let's go through this point by point. Don't just link someone else's case and pretend like that isn't wagoning. Say what you agree with in said case.

since he literally agreed with me that ousting a potential doc was anti-town and which was why he didn't do it himself. Bear plays like a noob, sure, but he isn't one. He's played in several games and knows that behavior is scummy.

Maybe it didn't make as much sense coming from pattern who you supposed was new, but do you see why an experienced player finds his actions scummy?

1. You've been extremely aggressive towards multiple players
   
2. You've OMGUSd literally everyone who has even dared to say a bad word about you (exxageration but still)
   
3. You self-voted
   
4. You're frustrations about your possible lynch this DP are very similar to your frustrations about your lynch as lone wolf
   

Last game, Disc lying directly told me that he was almost definitely scum. In this case me being PGO doesn't tell me who is scum lol so I can't say who to lynch next DP.

Unrelated to game right now: I said the same thing, yet he claimed to hear the defense. I think it's salt tbh, nothing more and nothing less. If anyone was to fake a CC, they are a top scum read

I'll consider it. Actually now that I think about it, he doesn't seem to be putting in a lot of effort to defend himself. In the last game he was lynched, he seemed a lot more passionate, and was telling town who to take action on the next day phase.