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@DavidAZ
That is what I was looking for I appreciate the clarification..................My fault
Then you should have simply asked. And yes it was all your fault. You didn't keep up with the thread and specifically your own contradictory comments .
I actually may start a thread just for you to describe your position on God being wicked. It is a interesting view IMO.
"actually may"!? I will believe it when I see, it.
But I told you, I don't care, I am easy.
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@DavidAZ
You wouldn't expound on your point of why fearing the LORD was such a big deal in your eyes.
So again you are trying to throw this on me. When is all I did was point out to you what the BIBLE states was the reason for the pointless test; which was fear.
It was all your own comments that made this conversation circular from there on in. My initial point started with Abraham not being able to work out that gods promise wouldn't come to fruition had he killed his son.
I wanted to have a normal conversation about biblical stuff and see your point of view but all I got was a pile of word games,
Again, it was you playing word games. YOU made a big deal over the word "knew". first by saying this;
"I personally believe Abraham didn't think God was going to have him follow thru with it OR if he were to kill his son, God would revive him... He knew Isaac was coming back down with him".#79
I pointed out that if Abraham "knew" then it wasn't a test.
Then you said : "God knows our thoughts and intents, NOT our actions"#102
When I showed you to the contrary>>> " for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts” 1 Chronicles 28:9"<<< You then changed your comment to this:
" I believe that God can see every possible future depending on our actions".
Then for reasons know only to you said this : "I do believe that God knows what you are thinking and what you are intending",#108
So again this means going by your own comments and logic - that Abraham knew god wasn't going to let him kill his son, and god knew that Abraham knew that he wouldn't let him kill his son. So I reminded you AGAIN that in that case it wasn't a test at all.
But you cannot see your own silly circular reasoning.
You also finally agree that the test was to do with fear and not a test faith. But only after I told you what the BIBLE has to say on the matter and then you started on about fear in this case meaning "reverence". #108 i.e. redefining the meaning of words simply to suit your argument, and without any supporting evidence, and when it doesn't mean any such thing. Where is your evidence for such a wild claim?
And you STILL haven't explained why this test had to happen in the first place at all. When the BIBLE says that GOD knows our thoughts and intentions?
1 Chronicles 28:9 and ""you [ lord] discern my thoughts from afar". Psalms 139: 1-2
And all the above was before we even got onto the mental torture god inflicted on yet another one of his own faithful and righteous servants: JOB
And to excuse your gods behaviour you more or less told us that the TEN children deserved to die and tried to blamed it on Job's children's "wickedness", his servants, his animals and even his fkn house!
Did god ever get around to explaining to Job why this all had to happened to him. I'll answer that for you, NO, he fkn didn't.
you spouting that God is wicked.
yes, he is a wicked.
If you expect me to engage in more threads with you according to the banter we had above, then forget it.
Please your self.
I don't expect anything. It is a public forum and members are free to come and go, engage or disengage. I'm easy.
shall be looking out for your thread "Other Aspects of God".
But we both know that you have no intentions of ever starting any thread at all on any topic concerning god, religion, the bible or Jesus.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Where is the truth to Miss Tradesecret’s claim where Mormons and JWs’ can heal the sick? Just another STUPID claim by Miss Tradesecret that we are used to.
It amazes me Brother that all three of these theists do not appear to agree on a single interpretation of a single verse in the bible.
they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (Mark 16:15
Indeed Brother D. It simply means a new language to that of their mother tongue. What it didn't mean was they would be speaking gobbledegookbollockus that no one on the planet would understand.
All good entertainment though, Brother D.
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@ludofl3x
@hey-yo wrote: God choose to humble Himself to the lowest point a human could experience. To demonstrate His love.ludofl3x wrote: This is pretty confusing too, given that there were literally no stakes for the main character at all. It's not really humbling yourself if it's just pure theater.
Indeed , especially when we were made in his image, "the human experience" -one would have thought, would be at least second nature to him.
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Stephen wrote: I couldn't have put that better myself ludo. 10/10Melcharaz, wrote: are you confessing he [Lodo flx3]is smarter than you?
Well he did realise that you were a phoney before I did. So yes, Ludo is definitely smarter than me.
Maybe it was that he has had more contact with you than I have.
Off you go now, thicko.
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Melcharaz, wrote: you enjoy mocking and insulting me.
Waaah. Waaah Turn the other cheek you hypocrite. 😭 I always give credit where its due, even if its negative.
Go back to your discussion with those two other bible dunces that you don't agree with. They are equal in bible ignorance as yourself.
Off you trot now.
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@ludofl3x
#139Go fuck yourself, you phony hardass.
I couldn't have put that better myself ludo. 10/10
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@YouFound_Lxam
The Bible is the word of God, and everything the Bible claims to be true is true and will forever be true.So all of the bible is true unless it claims otherwise? 😂Yep..............pretty self explainatory.
Un-fkn - believable.
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Melcharaz wrote; you mentioned me by @ and by blue links.
SO!?
I don't have you on block; you fkn dunce. Melcharaz
Melcharaz wrote: if you want to show your superiority, why not block me yourself?
I have no reason to. Bone head! Unlike yourself , that blocks without reason or because you cannot stand the competition. 🤣
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@hey-yo
Jesus or God did not refuse Jesus. Jesus said let your WILL be done. Jesus/God/both pertained the WILL to be cruxified.
Make up your mind.
You have categorically told us that Jesus "IS" god. You said this because I had said to you that Jesus' begging and praying to his "father" to be relieved of his burden were totally ignored. FFS keep up.
You then wrote:
ey-yo wrote: "A. Jesus is God, so God did not "refuse" Himself".#54
But if as you say- Jesus "IS" god, then he refused and ignored himself.
What's more, I asked you further if according to YOU that with Jesus also being god, why would A GOD need and underling subordinate to strengthen him. As the scripture clearly states?
"Then an angel from heaven appeared and strengthened him." Luke 22:43
You have had three stabs at trying to explain this away and failed every time.
Go away, you are as thick as that cretin the Reverend Tradesecret. He also makes shite up and contradicts himself when caught on the back foot after painting himself into a corner.
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Why are you addressing me while you have me on block?
To have me on block means you want nothing to do with me. I don't have you on block you hypocritical spineless coward.
I will raise this cowardly practice with moderation if you persist.
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@ a complete coward.
unless it is proven otherwise. There is nothing that disproves what the bible says except for false accounts which contemporaries there of either slightly deny them or say nothing because they were not credible.just like you wouldnt write a 100 page commentary on why a child lying about wolves is wrong.
STOP!!!! addressing my comment to others while you have me on block, you fkn spinless coward!
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Tradesecret, wrote:
@Melcharaz love your rudeness.
Says the man that calls atheist "slime of Satan" thick", and "uneducated drug addled kiddie fiddling convicts".
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@YouFound_Lxam
The Bible is the word of God, and everything the Bible claims to be true is true and will forever be true.
So all of the bible is true unless it claims otherwise? 😂
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@hey-yo
You missed this too:
Luke 22: 42-44
43 "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven and strengthened him".No I addressed it.
No you have not stop lying. You have said Jesus is god.
Jesus is God, so God did not "refuse" Himself.Yes, it is quite a quandary. The bible clears states that Jesus was praying to his father:Luke 22: 42-4442 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.Don't make me laugh.So Jesus is god that needed assistance from an angelic underling "to strengthen him!?Did any angels appear to those devout praying Christians to " strengthen" them while they watched their children die?And Jesus prayed to himself knowing all along that he would refuse himself?#55
So are you going to answer that simply question? You have swerved it twice already.
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@DavidAZ
>>>[A]<<<Well you tell me;Deuteronomy : "Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name"Proverbs: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."Ecclesiastes: " Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."Peter: " Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor"Okay, again, why are you trying to drive that point home?
Jesus! Are you serious !?
It was YOU that asked ME this>
DavidAZ wrote: Are you saying that you think God is interested/wanting/desiring that everyone fears him?#113
YESSSSS, the BIBLE makes it quite clear throughout. Did you fail to see >>>[A]<<< above.
So, now that I have had to show you something else you didn't know from the bible WHY don't you tell me WHY "god is interested in wanting/desiring people to fear him" .
You mean you want to change the meaning and definitions of words when they turn out not to agree with or support your own argument. That is a Reverend Tradesecret speciality. But it has never worked for that thick bible dunce and it won't work for you.I mean that I want to make sure I understand your conclusions as a whole and not try to trap you on a single word.
Well don't you be too concerned about "trapping me". I will usually ask for clarity if I don't understand something. Even if it means asking you to define a word supported by your sources before engaging. ..
If the definition of a word is vague due to overuse or the time in history that it was used,
Well you appear to be claiming some kind of authority on the matter of words used in the bible. That is all well and good as long as you can support you claims with evidence and sources and not something made up in the spur of the moment after finding yourself on the back foot.
And you have use the word "vague" . Will you define that word "vague" for us?
And some words may need clarity but this doesn't give you, or anyone literary licence to put any meaning or definition that suits you simply to win an argument or get yourself out of a self excavated hole.
I want to make sure we both come to the same idea of what is being said.
Ok then is all you have to do is make yourself clear from the off instead of attempting to alter the definition or meaning of a word half way through a discussion.
Anyway. I think I have done this conversation to death. My point was Abraham didn't challenge god on this occasion, and that the test was a test of his fear of god, the ANGEL makes that clear enough. And a pointless test at that considering you have told us all that "god knows what is in our hearts".
I look forward to you new thread.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
I had to down 5 shots of 104 rye whiskey......."speaking in tongues"
I am the same Brother. Mrs Stephen tells me that I sometimes speak in tongues when I arrive home after a session in the pub.
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@DavidAZ
Some serious backpaddling going on there. And you have told us that Abraham "knew god wouldn't let him kill his son". So if they both knew one another's thoughts and actions, then there it wasn't a test at all, was it. Please let that sink in. It is not that difficult to work out using your own fkn logic.You have accused me of backpaddling twice now but I thought I have been clear on the difference of a thought or intent and the action that follows through. Where is the backpaddling?
No I have accused you of moving the goal posts three time and backpaddling once.
As for Abraham "knew". Knew probably wasn't the term I was looking for because my intention was to show that Abraham believed that God wouldn't allow it to happen. But, if your definition of "knew" is that Abraham could read God's thoughts, then yes, it would be a dumb test. That is not what I was trying to convey.
Nothing to do with me or my definition, but all to do with YOU telling Me what you believe Abraham knew.
That is not what I was trying to convey.
Well have another try. What was the point of the test? If as you say they both knew one another's minds?
No. The BIBLE makes that clear. Not me. otherwise again, what was the test all about. Why are you denying that which the bible clearly states?Of course the bible states at the end that God says that he knows that Abraham fears him, but what is your point?
Here again you are not reading your bible. God didn't say anything after the test, it was the angel.
Are you saying that you think God is interested/wanting/desiring that everyone fears him?
Well you tell me;
Deuteronomy : "Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name"
Proverbs: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Ecclesiastes: " Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."
Peter: " Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor"
So what was the whole reason for putting his loyal and righteous servant through all of that pain , misery and sorrowful grief?It is a reason that I cannot understand, but you would know that God and Satan were debating whether Job would serve God if all his goods and family were taken away. God believed that Job loved him more than all the things and family he has and Satan didn't, so the test was on.
Well here again. The BIBLE makes it clear that it was a bet FFS!
Tell me. What would have been god's reaction had Abraham refused to kill his son Isaac?Good question. If I were to speculate, he would have been punished somehow, just like Moses striking the rock twice out of anger.What do you think would have happened?
Maybe something like Leviticus 26:14-46. he doesn't take to kindly towards those that refuse his commands.
You have kept your own private so don't be so rude as to enquire of mine.My profile is filled out. Yours is all unknown. Also, you never asked me so I never divulged.
It mentions nothing of your religious persuasion and I don't care what you are, hence that is why I haven't asked.
Opinion counts for nothing and neither does what you think of me. So can you leave the slights and veiled insults right here. I see. Well I am always ready to learn something new from you about scripture and religion in general.....as long as you don't mind me questioning you on what you may have to teach me. I look forward to it.My "even playing field" was referring to how much bible knowledge you have and how much you know of God and the scriptures as a Christian.
I was christened at birth but I am not a practicing Christian.
If I know where you come from, then I can adjust my answers to make more sense to you, but all I'm doing now is taking stabs in the dark about how you would accept my answers. Our dialogue recently tells me that we are arguing over some miscommunication too.
Stop talking nonsense . You make a comment or claim and I question it. You reply to your capability. And the same goes for me. There is nothing to "adjust" for my sake or my mental capacity on religion, the bible or anything else. That is another fkn patronising insult! You just don't realise it. Hence exposing your haughty arrogance.
I hate the "exact word" debate because it doesn't tell of the whole that is trying to be conveyed.
You mean you want to change the meaning and definitions of words when they turn out not to agree with or support your own argument.
That is a Reverend Tradesecret speciality. But it has never worked for that thick bible dunce and it won't work for you.
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MELCHARAZ QUOTE SHOWING HIS BIBLE STUPIDITY AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAN: "by the way, jesus called himself the son of God in verse 36. for those who thought he didnt"Barring Melcharaz in not capitalizing Jesus's name in showing respect for Him, He now promotes that Jesus is the son of God, whereas Peter says that JESUS IS GOD shown in the passage below:“Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours.” (2 Peter 1:1)
Indeed Brother D. and it appears that Melcharaz seems to have forgotten that there were other "son's of god" in the bible too. I think he's a bit on the slow side to realise that "son of god" is only a title given to other bible characters. In fact, god says the whole nation of IS-RA-El were his children.
Stephen, when does the outright Bible stupidity ever end with this current crop of "pseudo-christians" like Melcharaz that are bumbling around this Religion Forum making Bible fools of themselves?! ENOUGH!
.Nah. Keep em coming I say, Brother D.
I found those comments from the Reverend Tradesecret in case you missed them Brother D.
Odd don't you think, that he want's religion "abolished" and has never believed in it but has a congregation of over "300 worshipers"!?
I am sure he also told us once that he was a Preterist? (I'd have to check). here we are #92
AND that he never believed in religion and believes it should be abolished.!!!!#52
Funny that, considering he spent most of his life " studying world religions"
Tradesecret wrote: "Yet, I have experienced and talked with and studied with many of the different world religions. I have found all of them - similar in respect to Atheism. They all are pointless and devoid of life and meaning. They all have the façade of profundity yet - all fall at the first hurdle. #8
All very odd for someone that also says:
Tradesecret wrote: I didnot choose my religion. God chose me. I did not have the capacity orthe ability to reject him. He outsmarted me.
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/332-so-you-just-chose-your-religion?page=2&post_number=48
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@BrotherD.Thomas
YOUR UNGODLY QUOTE: "Its my understanding that this simply means speaking in another tongue as in anything aside your mother tongue or language: learning a new language"WRONG, my hell bound Atheist friend!You tell me if the following Christian examples of "Speaking in Tongues" in the links below are learning a new language:
Well, what can I say Brother D. You got me there.
Maybe with all his training in ancient languages The Reverend Tradesecret can translate for us?
I looked a bit deeper into this speaking in tongues Brother D. can you translate this for me?
And this please?
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@DavidAZ
I think I didn't communicate this clearly. Let me try again. I do not believe in "moving the goal post".
Which is what you do and have done and are about to do it for a third time. here>
I do believe that God knows what you are thinking and what you are intending, BUT your actions will determine what really happens. Your thoughts and intentions can change and therefore you will not always act out those thoughts and intentions. God will not know what you do until you actually do it, hence the need for God to know if Abraham will follow through on his directive. Actions speak louder than words or thoughts in this case.
Some serious backpaddling going on there. And you have told us that Abraham "knew god wouldn't let him kill his son". So if they both knew one another's thoughts and actions, then there it wasn't a test at all, was it. Please let that sink in. It is not that difficult to work out using your own fkn logic.
You are really hanging on the whole idea that Abraham feared God and and trying to drive home that is what the test was for.
No. The BIBLE makes that clear. Not me. otherwise again, what was the test all about. Why are you denying that which the bible clearly states?
As for Job, I agree that the death of others for the sake of God's bragging rights sounds brutal. I cannot tell you why this happened. I do know it wasn't because God is "wicked" and mean and such.
So what was the whole reason for putting his loyal and righteous servant through all of that pain , misery and sorrowful grief?
, you fail to recognize any other aspects of the bible where God
Look, we are not on about "other aspects" here are we? We are talking Abraham and now Job, where you have failed miserably to defend the actions of god towards two of his most loyal ,faithful and righteous servants. And you cannot give us a reason either. It was fear. and it is hardly "free will" if fear is attached.
If you wish to discuss "other aspects" then start a thread. I will be more pleased to engage you. But I know you won't be doing that anytime soon.
Tell me. What would have been god's reaction had Abraham refused to kill his son Isaac?
This is why I want to know your religious background.
None of your business. You have kept your own private so don't be so rude as to enquire of mine.
Your views are very ignorant if you only cherry pick the scriptures and don't understand the God of the bible. If you have no background with the Bible, then we are not on the same playing field.
Opinion counts for nothing and neither does what you think of me. So can you leave the slights and veiled insults right here.
If you have no background with the Bible, then we are not on the same playing field.
I see. Well I am always ready to learn something new from you about scripture and religion in general.....as long as you don't mind me questioning you on what you may have to teach me. I look forward to it.
And I shall be looking out for your thread on the "other aspects of god".
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MISS TRADESECRETS MOST REVEALING QUOTE: “I am a Presbyterian who believes ……..”Well, no wonder Miss Tradesecret is so Bible stupid and ignorant, she is a “Presby!” Duh. Just Google search the beliefs of this Hell bound Presbyterian church that go against the Bible teachings of none other than Jesus the Christ! Then check out the criticisms of this Satanic church, especially in how it promoted slavery, where you are saved by grace only, and which directly goes against the teachings of Jesus, etc.!MISS TRADESECRET’S BIBLE STUPID QUOTE IN CALLING JESUS A LIAR!: “Jesus will come back when he is ready to do so. Not before so. I hold to a post-mill point of view - so I personally think it won't be for a long time yet. But that is his prerogative, not mine.”What poor Miss Tradesecret personally thinks is in contradiction to Jesus’ prerogative of His Second Coming which has been 2000 years plus and still counting! BUT, Jesus said He would return in the lifetime of His Hebrew creation that were standing in front of Him in this passage: “He also said to them, "Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power." (Mark 9:1)
Tradesecret wrote: "Yet, I have experienced and talked with and studied with many of the different world religions. I have found all of them - similar in respect to Atheism. They all are pointless and devoid of life and meaning. They all have the façade of profundity yet - all fall at the first hurdle. #8
MISS TRADESECRETS BIBLE STUPID QUOTE: “I also hold that the speaking of tongues was temporary until the canon was completed.”WRONG again, therefore when does her outright Bible stupidity ever stop, where the passage below shows that one is to continue speaking in tongues at all times, and by going into the world and proclaiming the gospel:“And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (Mark 16:15-18)
Its my understanding that this simply means speaking in another tongue as in anything aside your mother tongue or language: learning a new language
We can only wonder if Miss Tradesecret ever put this passage to the test if she truly believes in Jesus as god, where she drank poison, or if she healed the sick like Jesus’ inspired passage says she could if she truly believes! She probably never followed this passage to the letter as a pseudo-Christian because she is not sure if she truly believes!
Well I am amazed actually that Tradesecret had never mentioned doing any of the above including handling snakes in one of his many, many ripping yarns. I am sure he would have gotten around to that given enough rope, sorry - I mean time.
MISS TRADESECRET IS THE POT THAT IS CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK QUOTE: “Well let's assume I am brainwashed, how about you prove some of your assertions from the scriptures"Miss Tradesecret RARELY uses Bible scriptures that she accuses the equally Bible fool Melcharaz of, as easily shown in me correcting her with my “plethora” of Bible passages by the inspired word of Jesus the Christ!
Everyone knows he is a hypocritical bible dunce. brother D. He will never use scripture to make his point for fear of being knocked down. He can't use scripture because he doesn't know it... at all.
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@Best.Korea
With your idea of "communities of 20 people" what would be the religion and who would be head of it's church?The religion would be Christianity. The head of Church would be someone who is respected and who has great knowledge of the Bible.
Why?
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@DavidAZ
It may sound like I'm splitting hairs here, but God knows our thoughts and intents, NOT our actions. I believe that God can see every possible future depending on our actions.
Well now that wasn't your initial comment. Stop moving the goal posts.
This was your comment;
DavidAZ wrote: Now, why did God feel he had to tempt Abraham is because God knows our hearts but he cannot tell our future actions.#79
You changed your tune when I pointed out a biblical verse to the contrary And now you are saying it all "depends on our actions".
But if you want to put it that way, then so can I. And I am not a god. Every one of us can tell where someone's actions may/will lead depending on what those actions are.
And you have purposefully missed the word "intent" of out and the word "THOUGHTS" in the verse.
" for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts” 1 Chronicles 28:9 << i.e that will be BEFORE the fact. He knows here where just our thoughts will lead.
DavidAZ wrote: Abraham wasn't calling a bluff, he was given orders and he was going to do it, knowing that God will make things right because God loved Abraham.
You are doing it again! If he knew the out come then it wasn't a fkn test at all then, was it?
And again, you have totally ignored your own belief, or have you forgotten. You went into the mind of Abraham and said this:
DavidAZ wrote: [C] I personally believe Abraham didn't think God was going to have him follow thru with it OR if he were to kill his son, God would revive him.
I replied:
Stephen wrote: Then again, are you trying to tell us that Abraham somehow called the almighty, all powerful god's bluff? That he just went through the motions while knowing all the time that god wouldn't allow him to kill his son? So didn't god know that Abraham knew all long that god would halt this murder and that he was only bluffing? Well it was hardly a fkn test then was it.#82
That is all you are good for when stumped for clear cut answers from the BIBLE. But every time you do this simply raises further questions and paint yourself into a corner.
Did God allow Isaac to be slain? Obviously not, AND there was a ram in the thicket not too far off. God even did not plan to have Isaac killed. It was only a test for Abraham.
All irrelevant to the question/s.
You view of a brutal God demanding the blood of our children comes from a weird perspective and this proves my point of a tainted view of God will then skew your interpretation of the Bible.
Well like it or not, it is not my perspective at all is it? It is directedly from the bibles authors perspective. I wasn't there and neither were you.
There was no malice or intent of malice in God's test to Abraham and Abraham was willing to perform the action out of respect to God.
Then what was the "TEST" all about"? I keep asking you and you cannot answer. And how many times!!!? it was out of "fear!.
I have told you, the BIBLE clearly states what the TEST was all about and you have ignored it. here>
That answer comes at verse 12 >>>> "for now I know that you fear God". Genesis 22:12 English Standard Version. So there was no need for you to go into the mind of Abraham or god.
I agree that Job's kids were treated as a dime a dozen, but it's also possible that Job's kids were adults and wicked.
Again you are scraping the barrel of excuses and reasons. The BIBLE makes it more than clear why god sanctioned these murders and mentions nothing of Job's children being wicked.
Was his house wicked too? What about all his live stock, were they wicked too? And the servants, were they also wicked?
Well "the righteous Job" certainly surrounded himself with the scum of the earth, didn't he? Makes you wonder why god would allow his loyal and righteous servant Job to be surrounded with so much iniquity and for so long, doesn't it?
You honestly need to learn and accept what the bible actually states and stop trying to play down the vile actions of your god. Making up unfounded excuses and or reasons on the hoof because you don't like my questions or cannot accept my opinions is not the way to hold a conversation or conduct and argument. and neither is moving the goal posts when you initial reasonings are put into check.
You assert far too much and far too confidently. IMO.
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@zedvictor4
Who's Melchy talking to. Certainly can't be me or you.Must be Trade.
Which is like talking to a tin of beans, Vic.
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@Best.Korea
Atheists are failing in many ways. You should be more concerned about the lack of morality in atheists rather than my fair words.
You missed this
Odd that you say that when on another thread you do not mention once the need for religion or god in your "small commune of 20 people".#1That is my mistake. I have mentioned the need now, so maybe you will be able to relate the two threads together and treat them as connected.
Ok. This is the thread I questioned and that you say I should "relate them as connected",
With your idea of "communities of 20 people" what would be the religion and who would be head of it's church?
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@PREZ-HILTON
you arrogant penis, believersWay to go after penis believers
If you are going to quote me, at least quote me unedited and in full context .
Stephen wrote: And let me remind you, you arrogant penis, believers - Christians, do not have the monopoly on morals, justice, fairness or benevolence. #2
Which was in response the this haughty and arrogant comment made about atheists in the OP #1 ;
What are the benefits of atheism? If God doesnt exist, the religion still has all the benefits above. However, atheism has no benefits even if God doesnt exist. It has no morality. It has no comfort for its followers. Atheism just makes life worse.Are there any benefits of atheism? None. The fact that Christian religion is beneficial to society means that anyone promoting atheism is harming society.Best countries in the world are Christian countries. To abandon Christianity, that would be harmful for our society.Atheism is not just a lack of belief in God. Without God, you fall into lack of morality, lack of guide and lack of comfort.We need religion. It is our basis for life. The fact that life is better with religion proves that religion is correct and atheism is wrong. #1
And it won't be the first time the "arrogant penis" has slated atheists either.
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Odd that you say that when on another thread you do not mention once the need for religion or god in your "small commune of 20 people".#1That is my mistake. I have mentioned the need now, so maybe you will be able to relate the two threads together and treat them as connected.
Ok. This is the thread I questioned and that you say I should "relate them as connected",
With your idea of "communities of 20 people" what would be the religion and who would be head of it's church?
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@Best.Korea
We need religion. It is our basis for life.
Odd that you say that when on another thread you do not mention once the need for religion or god in your "small commune of 20 people".#1
And let me remind you, you arrogant penis, believers - Christians, do not have the monopoly on morals, justice, fairness or benevolence.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
MISS TRADESECRETS UNGODLY QUOTE #1: “It’s not essential for Christian doctrine to believe the Bible is 100% true.” #10 [A]HUH? Her statement above is like saying, “a woman is just a little bit pregnant!” Where does this Bible fool get the authority to say that Jesus’ inspired words ARE NOT 100% true within the Bible?! BLASPHEME!
That's because s/he's a bible dunce Brother D. And after telling us that s/he "had memorised the bible #52" s/he must have forgotten that the whole on the NT is about the life and teaching of god Jesus the Christ himself.
But here's the most cretinouse part of that same post, s/h then follow that comment [A] up immediately with ;
Tradesecret wrote: Our faith is not in the bible but in Christ. #10
MISS TRADESECRET’S UNGODLY QUOTE #4: “Of course, a little training might assist them to be better informed as to why it is trustworthy and reliable.”OMG, now Miss Tradesecret contradicts herself with the quote above in the Bible now being trustworthy and reliable, AFTER she said that the Bible does not have to be 100% accurate!!! Does she understand that she is CONTRADICTING herself for Christ’s sake?! LOL!
That's how thick s/he is, Brother.D. S/he spouts such absolute bollocks that s/he cannot keep up with her/himself.
Poor Miss Tradesecret’s Bible ignorance has not allowed her to remember the following Jesus inspired passages shown below that specifically state that the Bible HAS TO BE 100 PERCENT TRUE!“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Matthew 4:4)“EVERY word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5)“And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD of God.” (Luke 4:4)
Yet we are supposed to believe it when s/he says this>>>
Tradesecret wrote: "I have memorised the bible from a very young age, I know it backwards and in many languages. I have read the bible numerous times. I try and read the OT once every year and the NT twice a year. I know it reasonable well and can even read Hebrew and Greek. " #52
My arse!🤣🤣🤣
Tells us he's a Pastor and a Chaplain too with a congregation of over 300 worshipers ! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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@Deb-8-a-bull
You are having trouble thinking this book of all the good bits would be 43 pages long .
What good bit's, Deb?
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@zedvictor4
Tradesecret wrote;
@zedvictor4 :Zed, you don't make a lot of sense.The soul is simply a living human being. All humans are souls. They don't have a soul. They are a soul.
The contradictory idiot doesn't realise that he has just proven what I have been saying all along since the day I came to this forum. Jesus wasn't dead when he was taken down from the cross placed and in the tomb for three days.
Jesus himself says "just like Noah was ALIVE in the "fish" praying", he too was also ALIVE.
Jonah 2:1From inside the fish [alive ] Jonah prayed to the LORD his God.
Jesus said: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth’” (Matthew 12:39-40).
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@DavidAZ
DavidAZ wrote: I expect a firestorm from Stephen .
Why?
DavidAZ wrote: You are referring to the sacrifice mentioned in chapter 22 of Genesis. God tempted Abraham and asked for his son as a sacrifice.I personally believe Abraham didn't think God was going to have him follow thru with it OR if he were to kill his son, God would revive him.Two reasons for this logic. 1. Isaac was a promised son that was supposed to carry the lineage of Abraham. The other is that Abraham tells his servant when they get to the mountain "Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you." Now, why did God feel he had to tempt Abraham is because God knows our hearts but he cannot tell our future actions. We have a freewill, so he let's us act them out.Also, when Isaac asked about the animal to be sacrificed, Abraham replied, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering".Now, why did God feel he had to tempt Abraham is because God knows our hearts but he cannot tell our future actions. We have a freewill, so he let's us act them out.
Ok, here is the part of the story in question.
22 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”[......................................]Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you.” 6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son. And he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” Genesis 22:1-12 English Standard Version
This first thing you should look at is the reason for this test (not temptation). That answer comes at verse 12 "for now I know that you fear God".
So your paranoid and jealous god was feeling insecure and didn't seem to trust or have full faith in him. i.e. he had his doubts. And going by verse 12, Abraham did what he did out of sheer fear of "the lord" and was willing to cut the throat of own son and burn him to a crisp.
And this doesn't answer why an all powerful and all knowing god didn't know if or not that his servant Abraham was loyal and faithful Or "feared him". Why didn't he know?
You say:
DavidAZ wrote: [A] Now, why did God feel he had to tempt Abraham is because God knows our hearts but he cannot tell our future actions.
Why doesn't he know "our future actions"? Isn't he always predicting the future actions of mankind? Revelation springs to mind.
DavidAZ wrote: [B] We have a freewill, so he let's us act them out.
Well that simple cannot be true at all can it? It is hardly "free will" when a man is willing to murder his own child out of sheer "fear of the Lord".
And if as you also say :
DavidAZ wrote: [C] I personally believe Abraham didn't think God was going to have him follow thru with it OR if he were to kill his son, God would revive him.
Then again, are you trying to tell us that Abraham somehow called the almighty, all powerful god's bluff? That he just went through the motions while knowing all the time that god wouldn't allow him to kill his son? So didn't god know that Abraham knew all long that god would halt this murder and that he was only bluffing? Well it was hardly a fkn test then was it.
At [C] you are scaping the barrel of excuses and or reasons for why this test had to take place at all.
but he cannot tell our future actions.
And just like the Reverend Tradesecret (who is a complete bible dunce and cretin) that brags about having been taught to memorise the bible from a very early age; #52, you forgot this;
"you [ lord] discern my thoughts from afar". Psalms 139: 1-2
and this;
" for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts” 1 Chronicles 28:9
The bible is riddled with verses about god knowing our future actions.
I would hate to think that you were taking bible lessons from a clown like the Reverend Tradesecret, you're not are you?
On the face of it, is all this story has shown me is that your god is a vile, torturous and sadistic god that , as in the case of Job where he showed us that a man's precious children were literally 10 a penny in his eyes, he will put his most loyal, trusted and faithful servants through sheer anxiety and mental torture.
Unless of course, it is an allegory? Only then it just might make some kind of sense.
Have you been slighted by a priest or pastor?
No. But I had a good slap from a nun once. Lovely lady, but just like that bible cretin the Reverend Tradsecrete, she didn't appreciate me posing her awkward questions. 😁
You're responses are very specific.
Thorough, when I believe they need to be...... or can be bothered to make them so.
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@DavidAZ
Also, mankind has used the bible as a weapon to dominate.
You mean Pastors, Chaplains and Priests.
And as I have written in response to you here just minutes ago
The psalms are nothing more than a series of laments written by unknown authors, and usually asking why god has done one thing or another to someone or another. Or not done one thing or another. Or why the suffering or why all the sorrow in the world.. So you see, they were asking the same questions then as they are to this day. And this is where your Pastors and Priests step in with all the answers - "my son" - to take advantage of the lost and lonely. The down hearted, the vulnerable, the disenfranchised. The dying and the bereaved. They are fkn parasites and always have been. IMO of course.
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@DavidAZ
He does have mercy and kindness for those that love him.Not in my opinion. And god has given me no reason to love him. But to emphasize again. My problem is with the scriptures. I don't have a problem with Christians or that they have a faith. Its what they have faith in that interests me.Your views are pretty unique.
I'm sure they are not.
You missed this:
Was it a test of Abrahams faith or not?Yes.
Then why would a all knowing god need to test his faith?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
@zedvictor4
The Reverend Tradesecret wrote:
@Deb-8-a-bull. I take the view that every time we see a court hand down a decision it is a delegated judgment of God.
Clown!
That is probably why many guilty go free and many innocent go to prison and or executed. Yep that sums up god's "judgement" just fkn dandy.
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@DavidAZ
Was it a test of Abrahams faith or not?Yes.
Then why would a all knowing god need to test his faith?
Examples please?Without getting too philosophical, 21st century logic tries to do away the bible and God, like you said.
I don't remember saying that. Maybe you can remind me?
The problem is the bible and God is the way we thrive as a community the best. Take that away and the community deteriorates.
So the natives tribes of Papua New Guinea and native tribes of the Amazonian rain forest are in in disarray and are deteriorating because they have never heard of Jehovah?
So, for an example, if you think it's okay to sleep with whoever you deem worthy, then you degrade yourself and your future wife.
[A] Opinion and a poor example of people living without religion. and your example could- if there is any truth to it - could apply to a couple who are married and have a family.
You don't take it seriously and with that same frame of mind, your marriage, even with the best intentions, will fail. Families split, children are fatherless, so on and so on.
See [A]above
Need another?
Not if it's as poor as the example that you have already offered.
People are focused on the corrupt things of man when talking about religion.I don't understand that. can you expand?We will focus on the disgusting behavior of catholic priests. We focus on the money grabbers like TV evangelists. What we fail to see is the actual message they pretend to give.
Well you have offered the reasons why some focus on the "pretence of money grabbers" pretending to be men chosen by god. Pastors and priests are infamous for it.
We use those examples and then shroud EVERYTHING biblical as bad.
Some may do that as a result of the extremely bad behaviour of some sexual deviant Pastors and Priests but I don't use their perversions as an excuse or reason to question and scrutinise biblical text. the content of the bible itself - all on its own - is enough for me to question everything about it.
When in truth, people are selfish in general and those few that were bad need to be isolated as hypocrites, not the message. Expanded enough?
Well I am not stupid or naïve enough to tar everyone with the same brush. That, I have often found is a terrible habit of theists towards non believers. You may not understand but I don't have a problem with Christians nor do I have a problem with anyone that has a faith. My problem springs directly from the scriptures themselves.
Then you need to study "his ways" a bit closer. He is a vile , vengeful, god of war and has been from day one. And he only has an eye for his "chosen people" ; Israelites, and look how he treats them throughout the Old Testament.This goes along with my point above. When you have a tainted outlook on this subject, you tend to isolate only what you want to see.
Which springs from, and has it's roots in, the bible. It is the bible that causes me to question it. I am sorry you don't understand this but I have every right to question and scrutinise what is written therein and I question and scrutinise it even closer when theists tell me god loves us on the one hand while commanding the heads of infants be smashed against rocks and be happy about it on the other.
I agree it seems that God is a heartless one during the old testament,
You aren't wrong there. And he doesn't "seem " to be, he damn well is.
but read the prophets
I could write a book on the so called prophets but could take quite a large volume.
and psalms.
The psalms are nothing more than a series of laments written by unknown authors, and usually asking why god has done one thing or another to someone or another. Or not done one thing or another. Or why the suffering or why all the sorrow in the world.. So you see, they were asking the same questions then as they are to this day. And this is where your Pastors and Priests step with all the answers - my son - and take advantage of the lost and lonely. The down hearted, the vulnerable, the disenfranchised. The dying and the bereaved. They are fkn parasites and always have been. IMO of course.
He does have mercy and kindness for those that love him.
Not in my opinion. And god has given me no reason to love him.
But to emphasize again. My problem is with the scriptures. I don't have a problem with Christians or that they have a faith. Its what they have faith in that interests me.
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@DavidAZ
If we go by your own unfounded logic, then why the need for a "test of faith" in the first place? It was a test of faith , wasn't it?Good question, assuming that we understand the mind of God.
It was a simple enough question. Was it a test of Abrahams faith or not?
Hmmm. . . amazing that 21st century logic breaks things and good ole biblical principles make them better.
Examples please?
People are focused on the corrupt things of man when talking about religion.
I don't understand that. can you expand?
I HATE religion.
I love biblical and religious study.
I believe in God and his ways.
Then you need to study "his ways" a bit closer. He is a vile , vengeful, god of war and has been from day one. And he only has an eye for his "chosen people" ; Israelites, and look how he treats them throughout the Old Testament.
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@DavidAZ
Some pretty amazing jumps of logic here!
Note at all. Taking it as face value, the whole story could well be bullshite.
If only I could rise to the level of your mental capacity.
No need for your slights. You make the assumption that Abraham knew all along that god would keep his promise. If we go by your own unfounded logic, then why the need for a "test of faith" in the first place? It was a test of faith , wasn't it?
I mean, didn't the almighty and god already know Abraham was a faithful "servant"?
Why the need for this test in the first instance?
I'd say 21st century logic is treating you well,
Indeed. 21st century education has served me well.
as long as you get to fill in any blanks.......
Such is the nature of scripture. It has that many gaps and leaps in time one has to look elsewhere for possible clues and or answerers.
your own way of thinking.
21st century logical thinking instead of blind and ignorant faith.
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@DavidAZ
I'm sure that Abraham figured this out too.
If the idiot had worked it out wouldn't he have reminded god of his promise or at least ask? And there is always the possibility that the whole story is bullshite. I mean, didn't god already know Abraham was a faithful "servant"?
I see your view more as 21st century skepticism.
Whilst using simple logic.
He wasn't well to do because he was stupid
He was a Prince. They don't work for a living. It is more likely he got his wealth and title from conquest. This doesn't indicate intellect nor logic.
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Melcharaz wrote:
@IlDiavoloyou no longer want to discuss it do you?
Says the man that blocks anyone without warning or reason. 😂
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@Elliott
There is an article about an elderly Muslim man being set on fire presumably by another Muslim #13
I wouldn't know the assailants religion but I think the clue may be in the name.
A man has been charged with two counts of attempted murder after two elderly Muslims were set alight after leaving mosques.
Mohammed Abbkr is alleged to have sprayed a substance on the men and set them alight in separate attacks, in Ealing, London, on 27 February and Edgbaston, Birmingham on 20 March.
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@DavidAZ
What are you referring to as 21st century logic?
Well did Abraham have the logical sense to work out that god would have broken his promise if Isaac had indeed died and didn't call god on it?
Well I did - the moment I first I read it.
That is 21st century logic.
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@hey-yo
do children go to hell? No.
So it's off to heaven for these infant babes, then.
This will be after commanding that the " heads of infants be smashed against the rock's- and be happy about it"? Psalms 137:9
Or is it after the order to slay all infants at 1 Samuel 15:3 ?
Maybe it would be after killing of infants before their eyes of their parents? Isaiah 13:16
You missed this too:
Luke 22: 42-44
43 "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven and strengthened him".
Don't make me laugh.
So Jesus is god that needed assistance from an angelic underling "to strengthen him!?
WHY!?
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@zedvictor4
The Reverend Tradesecret wrote:
@ zedvictor4:so you admit to being willfully ignorant. To suggest that there is currently nothing new to encourage you to change your viewpoint is the epitome of such a view. I consider that there are always things about that might help me change my view. I don't know everything and often am corrected in my understanding. It must be a hard slog for you being so perfect.It wasn't a frustrated dig. that suggests that somehow you are frustrating me. Not true.I love how you change the goalposts and use humour to do it.the point is - you say truth exists - but you don't know how to get there and worse than that - you think anyone else is NEVER going to get there before you. So you simply cast doubts on everything they say. I might call that envy. Are you envious of others who have satisfied and balanced lives? Is your life so unstable that you have to believe that everyone else is just as unstable as your own?
Sly slights and smarmy digs - a plenty. This from a he that claims to be a Christian Pastor and a Chaplain to his countries armed forces #20. With all his years of being taught to memorising the bible from an early age #52 and couldn't even remember this:
Colossians 3:12-13
“Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.”
"chosen by god", my arse!
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@Deb-8-a-bull
As soon as the numbers of christians drops one less then the Muslims.You can mark us atheists down as Christians.
You have a point there, Deb. But I think more will cave in to Islam than admit that they are Christian.
Then as soon as you guys have finished counting us atheists as Christians.Let us know so we can go back to being atheists.Real fucking sneaky like.
Well Muslims are allowed tell lies as long as it to further the cause of Islam and save their bacon- sorry I mean skin.. It called Taqiyya
"In Islam, Taqiya or Taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة taqīyah, literally "prudence, fear") is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice".
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@zedvictor4
In Worcestershire.
I am still here in Worcestershire.
Left for Wales though.
One set of rolling hills and valley's for another, then. I am half welsh myself.
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@zedvictor4
I can't read.And I can't write.But that don't really matter,I lives in Worcestershire.And I can drive a tractor.
😊
Never driven one myself, Vic.lad. Too much scrumpy.
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@IlDiavolo
I think the problem of Melcharaz and all the christian zealots is that they utterly disregard the history of christianity and humanity. Just let's see what he[ Melcharaz] says here:this is an established precept known throughout thousands of years, there is nothing new under the sun. just a different name from what history may tell us.
If he knew what he was talking about I may agree with him. With that said;
He's never heard of Gondwanaland, I take.
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@IlDiavolo
The "FALLING AWAY," that Melcharaz refers to above #20 - happened before and during Jesus' life time. It was nothing to do with future Christians.
Jews had been under Greek rule and Roman rule for centuries before Jesus came on the scene. The "falling away" was not Christians falling away from Christianity or the Christ. It was the Jews falling away from the belief in Yahweh and in favour of Greek gods. They were under Greek rule for some 4-5 hundred years.
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