Stephen

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@Tradesecret

@BrotherDThomas

TRADESECRET, whose gender went from a man, to a woman, and now unknown,

Well that will depend on which face he decides to wear on any given day. It appears to change with his/her time zones too.

The worthy of death clause is the following Jesus’ inspired words: "If a man also lie with mankind, As he lieth with a woman, Both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death,; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)

The apologist will always attempt to water down these vile verses as with that vile verse of the death penalty of a child for back - chat. Exodus 21:17

But, to the apologist, vile verses such as these never actually mean what they say but the fluffy verses do.

But what are we to expect from a god that , rather than simply saying - ` ok, we are today ushering in a new covenant in a new age and all mankind's sins are forgiven ` , decides it would be better to make a spectacle of his innocent and only son by having him beaten viciously and violently to withing inches of his life, then have him nailed to two pieces of wood as a blood sacrifice!? I never yet met a christian that can ever explain why did it all have to be a blood sacrifice?

Once again, please DO NOT run away again like you have explicitly done in the past....

He will . You are talking to a wo/man that believes that giving his own son the ` punishment ` of a talking to about the ills of looking at porn equates#122 with the death penalty for being a homosexual. This , I am afraid Brother is the kind of pig ignorant denial, you and I, are up against.

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@Polytheist-Witch

Science had nothing to do with religion.

Except some ancient priests were astronomers which is the study of natural science that studies heavenly bodies or objects. Which would also have included mathematics, physics, and chemistry

.

Then there were Priests that practiced the science of medicine and mathematical science.

I believe Josephus called the biblical Adam - ` one that studied a peculiar science or had a peculiar wisdom of the planets` or was that Enoch? And that Abraham taught a ` science ` to the Egyptians.

Of course Witch, this is when priests were there to only to serve the " lords" and didn't have anything at all to do with the local population.

But as you say , this " had nothing to do with religion", because their simply wasn't any such thing as religion at that time.

This changed in Egypt when the priests got powerful and usurped the kings/Pharaoh and made themselves intermediary between the lords and the population. before this takeover, only those that were called lords, were the king makers. But now, can't have a monarch without a priest , Witch.

Subservient religion is the invention of priests not `gods ` or lords, Witch. But I think you already know this.

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4 years ago

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@Kadin

For example, if you are Catholic you might struggle with how your church handled abuse allegations. Or if you are Jehovah's Witness......

JW's have as much child sexual abuse going on in their cult too. They just like to handle it " in house".

Jehovah's Witnesses sued over 'historical sex abuse'.

New Documentary Examines Alleged Child Sex Abuse Within Jehovah's Witnesses

Oxygen's The Witnesses revisits long-running claims of protections given to alleged pedophiles within the denomination.

"In April The Atlantic magazine revealed the sect maintained a list of accused pedophiles within its membership going back decades."

https://people.com/crime/jehovas-witnesses-alleged-sex-abuse-oxygen-documentary/

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4 years ago

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Presuppositionalism

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@Ramshutu

That website has come up with the longes possible way of saying “we’re begging the question”

Which web site is that, Ramashtu?

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@Tradesecret

Thanks Stephen for once again showcasing g your wonderful logic and whatever.

You are more than welcome Reverend.

Are you really this thick?

No. I am not thick at all, Reverend. Do you talk to all of your parishioners "sheep" and your student in this tone when they catch you out in such blatant contradictions, Reverend?

Gods death penalty is covenantal.

So. It is s death sentence all the same , it is the commanding and ordering taking of a life, "Duh!" Which YOU tell us that YOU "do not disagree with". DOUBLE Duh!" But also tell that you "do not agree with the death penalty " TRIPLE Duh!"

Duh! If you don’t agree argue the point don’t just ignore it.

Don't agree what? I have highlighted your own contradiction, and not for the first time either is it.

Don’t just assert your dumb presumptions.

I have asserted that you are a contradictory clown of double standards and clearly highlighted YOUR contradiction on the matter . One the one hand you disagree with the death penalty but then on the other hand tell us you "do not disagree with gods command of the death penalty".

Stupid man. Dumb as fuck. Just continue to repeat your ignorance.

I will if that what it takes to show you for the contradictory biblical ignorant clown that you are.

Stupid man. Dumb as fuck.

My, you really do have many faces don't you, Reverend.

Do you talk to all of your parishioners - "sheep" - and your students in this tone when they too point out and highlight your blatant contradictions, Reverend?

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@Timid8967

Who cannot help it? Is that 3 x?

This is not about me.

It is not about me either. But you direct all of your complaints in my direction. I didn't ignore your thread, NO! that was Christians that were ignoring your thread until I asked where they all were.

This is why I cannot understand for the life of me that you have responded three consecutive times now to me and not even entertained the idea of responding to the " delusional and nuts" PGA2.0 that has taken the time to respond to you in some great detail?

Why have you shown only interest in what I have to say and not PGA's detailed response to your op? Why are you not now highlighting these " fundamental flaws" that you have discovered but instead keep replying to me?

I sense the hatred you have for Tradesecret

See,^^^^^^^ you simply cannot help yourself, can you. I don't know the Reverend Tradesecret to hate him you clown. I just think that like you, he is also a fraud.

I could care two hoots for him [the Reverend Tradesecrete]

But you do care just enough to " be honoured to be mistaken for him".#243. I see. ok.

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@Timid8967

All you have to convince me that you are not obsessed with tradesecret is stop referring to him every time you talk to me.

Then do not give me cause. It is that simple.

You asked for Christians , I mentioned the Christian the you tell us that you " would be honoured to be mistaken for", your hero, and that fact that even he hadn't shown to your party.

I could care two hoots for him [the Reverend Tradesecrete]

But you do care just enough to " be honoured to be mistaken for him".. I see. ok.

and you missed this>>

OK , how are tradesecret & PGA2.0 "deluded" and why would you wish to discuss the "fundamental flaws" that you have discovered with the very two people that YOU are now calling " delusional and nuts"?

SO, are you going ahead with showing your "fundamental flaws"? or are you throwing the towel in already and just putting it all down to yet another bad idea of yours?

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@Tradesecret

I have not contradicted myself.

Oh ffs, stop it.!!!

Saying on the one hand that you do not agree with the death penalty#133 then on the other hand say that you " do NOT disagree with god" who says this about the death penalty>>>

a man lies with a male as with a woman,
both of them have committed an abomination;

they shall be put to death;
their blood is upon them.”— Leviticus 20:13

is a BLATANT! contradiction!!!

Why would I want to stop loving my parents?

Indeed WHY!!! BECAUSE YOUR GOD TELL YOU TO!!!!!! THAT'S WHY!!!!!!

“If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple".Luke 14:26

Are you now going to tell us that god doesn't mean "hate" at all? If that is going to be the case, then you have to explain what possible word can replace the word "hate" in any language and still make it sound sense..?

Are you now going to reinterpret and put new words into the mouth of Jesus? Or are you simply going to regurgitate what it is that you have been taught to simply " pass on"#20

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@Timid8967

You seem to be obsessed with him.

Not at all. You were "waiting for Christians" . You said that you would only discuss your discovered "fundamental flaws" with Christians.

You then seemed to be arguing that Tradesecret wasn't a Christian or at least the ` type` of christian that you wanted to discuss this thread with; which I thought silly considering that it was YOU brought the Reverend Tradesecret in our very first ever conversation?

When I mentioned that even he hadn't showed to your thread you said this>>>" Is the reverend tradesecrete a presuppositionalist? He doesn't sound like one." #18", which simply gave me cause to remind you that he was a Christian and a very high ranking one at that, so much so that that you told us that you were "honoured to me mistaken for him".

Listen, if you feel that I mention the Reverend tradsecret a little too much and often, SIMPLY DO NOT GIVE ME CAUSE TO DO SO, like you have done right now and will no doubt do again. You cannot help yourself.

Is there a reason apart from your envy that you continue to tell us all how well qualified he is?

Well no, but I am sure there are many a Christian dunce that would want his qualifications, don't you? After all , it is you that said you are " honoured to be mistaken for him". That wasn't me.

I tagged both tradesecret and PGA2.0 because I thought you might know something more than me since you have been here a whole longer than me.

You also tagged ME on the same post although YOU have made it abundantly clear that YOU do not want to discus these "fundamental flaws inPresuppositionalism " with ME? You really are disorientated and confused, aren't you? I had noticed too that you hadn't tagged your greatest fan fauxlaw to come join you, he too is a Christian , you know..

At least neither PGA2.0 or trade are as bitter as you.

BITTER!!!? I am not bitter, silly. I enjoy myself here talking to the likes of the biblical ignorant. But at least you have excuse for not knowing the scriptures, don't you? You have only read it once you tell us and found it be " quite confusing and to me contradictory"#186 . Yet here you are wanting to discuss presuppositionalism with Christians yet not the Christian bible that you "find confusing and contradictory"!?

resorting to twisted comments like you do.

Which twisted comments, lets see them. Either you post them up or stop lying.

more attractive than your cynical and negative comments.

lets see them or simply stop telling lies about me.

Religion should be abolished. But so should belligerent attitudes such as yours be as well.

Attitudes about the bible that you have read only once and condemned to the flames after just one reading.

Bibles should be burnt and destroyed - but negativity and militant idiots ought to be canceled too.

No. What you mean is that YOU do not want ME to scrutinise and question these scriptures or even give my opinion on them. I have told you. I think you are fraud.

What I think and believe about a book that you have read only once and want condemned to the flames should be of not bother or interest to YOU. So you can drop the pretence of being anti EVERYTHING religion!

They [ tradesecret & PGA2.0]are both deluded in their positions

SEE^^^^, you're doing it again! You cannot help yourself, can you?

OK , how are tradesecret & PGA2.0 "deluded" and why would you wish to discuss the "fundamental flaws" that you have discovered with the very two people that YOU are now calling " delusional and nuts"?

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@Timid8967

Is the reverend tradesecrete a presuppositionalist?

But you have particularly pointed to Christians have you not.

Well, I'll have you know he happens to be all things to all men, from what he tells us. That includes being a serving and devout Christian in the service of god. .Just the type your looking forward to revealing these "fundamental flaws" that you keep talking about and will only reveal to.

You do know he is a CHRISTIAN Pastor and a Chaplain, don't you, that ministers to his countries Defence Force?? I mean, you have made it clear many times now how you have read over many of his posts and are pleased to be "mistaken for him".

Oh, you are a forgetful one aren't you? Here you go then>>

#243
Timid8967
For a matter of interest, after reading some of Tradesecret's posts - which are on balance, ok, I would be happy, no pleased to be mistaken for him or her. Yet, despite your compliment, I am unable to accept such an accolade.

But after 7 days in the wilderness and no takers, you have had to resort in calling them to you.

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Alcohol

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@Timid8967

Well done. I look forward to it.

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Presuppositionalism

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@Timid8967

Author:Timid8967,7 days ago

So leave it there and simply produce those "fundamental flaws" that you wish to discuss with no one but Christians.

I will when a Christian turns up and wants to argue the case.

And on the seventh day, no Christians were to be seen in the land. Not even the Reverend Tradesecrete?

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@Timid8967

Given you are a member of the LDS, do you see yourself as an elder in the church? And would you see all other churches - denominations as apostate?

I have some other questions - but perhaps it might be best if I started a new thread in the religious forum.

I too have some questions for the LDS 'sect'. When will you start it?

Thanks Stephen,

I had lost this one in the ether of having so much fun.

You are welcome. So lets have some more fun when you start your thread on the LDS - Latter-day Saints in the religion forum.

Maybe we can both pose questions.

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@Tradesecret

-->@Tradesecretwrote; I don’t actually agree with the death penalty at this time.

So are you saying that you disagree with god and his own decree that homosexuals should be put to death?

-->@Tradesecretwrote; I don’t disagree with God. What a dumb thing to say .

Well it is rather "dumb"& retarded not to mention blatantly contradictory of you sunshine, to say on the one hand you don't agree with the death penalty and on the other hand say you don't disagree with god on the death penalty.

And the rest of your post is simply more backpaddling and more apologetics from a typical Christian hypocrite attempting to justify the unjustified decrees of your megalomaniac psychopathic god. But your contradiction doesn't stop there, dose it? No, you press home you contradiction with this complete and utter shite in response to Polytheist-Witch :

->@Polytheist-Witch wrote; If he's a Christian he should. Old Testament is Jewish law.

-->@Tradesecretwrote; I am not a Jew. And I don’t live in Jewish town under Jewish law. In Jesus, God’s laws have become multinational because the saviour has come.

You are just far too ignorant to see how blatantly contradictory you are being . You see you admit that god's law is now "multinational" and gods law includes the death penalty. But you have told me above that you do not agree with the death penalty which happens to be "multinational god's law";

BUT ALSO SAY that you "do not disagree with god" but disagree with the death penalty which happens also to be ACCORDING TO ONLY YOU, gods own "multinational law" ..

One simple little question and it doesn't take you seconds to sink yourself does it, Reverend?

Hahahahahhahahhahahahhahahhahhahahhahahha

GET WELL SOON, Reverend.

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@Tradesecret

I don’t actually agree with the death penalty at this time.

So are you saying that you disagree with god and his own decree that homosexuals should be put to death?

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Are JWs christians?

You missed those bible references above and those over page too I see. reverend, you are very ill. get well soon.

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@Tradesecret

Your presumptions about christians is legendary.

Are they? Is it not a fact that the Christian religion is nothing more than faith based?

And how little you know or understand.

Its always the nonbeliever or simply anyone else but yourselves that doesn't understand., isn't it?

We don’t believe out of some misguided view about heaven or punishment for wrong but out of a love and thankfulness for Gods grace and mercy.

A god that you simply believe to exist on faith alone and without facts.

But it is the "logic" that you have mentioned and have been tutoring your students on, is what I asked you about. In what sense "logic" were you tutoring these "sheep"?

Do you really think that your infantile and futile attempts at ridicule bother me?

Do you feel ridiculed? I don't see why, or is this just as I predicted above and that this will be your second attempt at claiming to be being victimised.

I use your words as a pinup testimony of how atheists debate.

Well I am on about "sheep" in both camps as per your thread and its title, Or have you forgotten already the title of your own thread, concerning there being - "so many sheep in the world", <<<< and this coming from one of the greatest sheep on the planet.

You are the laughing stock of many a college lunchroom.

I am? Strange that I have never felt that myself , isn't it.

This how an atheist debates. He uses ad hominem language.

And you can show me where on this thread that I have used ad hominem language towards you or anyone?

You are not even a has been. You are a never was.

That will be the " ad hominem" language you mentioned about , I take it.

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@Tradesecret

You have pointed me to Wikipedia. Such a telling action.

So. I did you see the qualifications of the contributors?

Look Reverend. You are simply in complete denial because you didn't and still don't know your own scriptures.

Here's a few more to chew on:

Rom 8:14 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:19 - For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Phl 2:15 - That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world

1Jo 3:1 - Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jo 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

You are making yourself look a right and proper dunce Reverend.

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@Tradesecret

trolling

Nope. But I see an old pattern of yours emerging here. Is this where you begin to complain of being a victim??

My view on the current modern church and people in mainstream society are not so far removed.

Well I have said as much above, haven't I? I said, they are both sheep that follow blindly their leaders fed on a diet of promises. They never have been far removed at all, Reverend. And if you have read any ancient history apart from the bible, it is not hard to point out they are both about control for the minds of the masses. Besides , I am of the opinion the most people understood that the priesthood in ancient times and almost up to date were the government.

I do think that the majority of people who call themselves Christians probably fall into the sheep category.

Of course they do. For one, they believe without question things that simply go against natural law and believe in the promised of tickets to heaven and everlasting life.

[ I will only be talking about ] Sheep in the context of this topic but I’m not commenting about the sheep in a church context.

But you do agree, they are non-the-less, both "sheep".

This I suspect arises because schools don’t teach logic anymore.

Ok, so what is the logic in that which you tutor university students?

I’m not currently teaching or working at all. I have been basically retired until my health gets better.

Sounds like you are hoping to shed an old skin, Reverend. How coincidental. That happened just recently to a `new` member here. Although such a busy and colourful past such as yours will be hard to shake. I mean, so much crammed into ones daily life, is it any wonder that you are recovering from an illness. #140 and this on top of family and the family farm.

But I suppose you will be telling us next that you will emerge from your semi sick bed like a new moth from its cocoon after having all this time on your hands to think and ponder since your rest-bite from such a busy,busy life style; and that you will want to put your past comments about your busy busy lifestyle all behind you.

However, Reverend, sick or not, you will still have all those qualifications and high education taught to you by those " academics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church", won't you? And illness will never erase those , will they? And so this shouldn't at all give you any reason not tell us what logic it was that you once tutored those students, is there, Reverend?

You are still a man of the cloth aren't you? That ministers to your countries Defence Force? Not that it matters. You still believe the unbelievable whatever your standing.

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@Tradesecret

Hi stephen you must be bored - finding old topics of mine. I assume bored over trolling.

Bored? Why ever would you say that? Not that I have to explain my moves to you, but; I happened to be in the Politics sub forum and your thread , unusually, wasn't that far down the list. I seen the word "sheep" in your title and thought you may have come to some kind of awakening , with you being a fully qualified Pastor and Chaplain that ministers to the lords flock. Its that simple. Surely you see the connection.

So, in your own opinion, why are there so many "sheep"?

Why? I don’t know.

Well it seems to me that following governments blindly and having blind faith in one's leaders and their promises, is not too far from the "sheep" that have blind faith in god, Jesus, and church elders such as Pastor and Priests and words written in the bible by authors unknown. With only the slight difference that sometimes governments and their members can be held to account. And god cannot. But blindly he is followed anyway. As are those that claim to have seen Jesus and spoke with him.

This I suspect arises because schools don’t teach logic anymore.

Ok, so what is the logic in that which you tutor university students?

A book I have mentioned before titled “how to read a book” by Mortimer Adler

I have recommendation for you too. The New Testament, author unknown. I am sure that with a careful reading that you and your university students will find that on the surface it is nothing less than what is promised by governments today, without, of course, the over the top promise of everlasting life but only if you believe in them. But I am sure that a politician/government one day will edge this into their manifesto. Its not as if it hasn't been done before , is it?

In my own opinion, the people/sheep of the world are being trained from an early age or coerce in older age into becoming totally reliant on technology to provide for the simplest of things in their daily lives.

Such as when cash is obsolete and everything is online; banking and shopping etc. I wonder if there will ever be a "sheep" to wake up and realise how they are being led back into times ancient, of ignorance and illiteracy, when Pastor and Priests had full and total control over the minds of the population and their everyday lives?

It will only take a flick of the switch and there we will be, back to the year dot, no food to be had and no denarii to buy it with if there was , and with new kinds of pastors and priests in full control of the wheel telling us what is good for us and how to think, what we can have, when we can have it

I suspect in many ways that you and I are more in common than either of us will admit.

I don't know. If I was to ever recognise any commonality between us, I am sure I would have recognised it by now and pointed it out. Besides, I am sure that I must have a lot of political views and opinions that are as common to millions of others so maybe that could include you too.

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@Greyparrot

Facts never matter to a sheep.

A+1

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@Tradesecret

Why are there so many sheep in this world?

I am assuming that by "sheep" you mean those so easily led and believe the first thing they are told without any research of their own; and not "sheep" in the sense of a church flock? ......... that coincidently have been doing exactly the same for millennia.

So, in your own opinion, why are there so many "sheep"?

Why is there no serious critical thinking any more?

What is your opinion? And I believe there is much critical thinking to be seen and heard in this day of the WWW, but it is slowly being closed down / cancelled.

Why is it that something is said - repeated and then suddenly it is gospel and you are not allowed or permitted to speak against it?

Well you are ' allowed ' but don't expect to be liked for your opinions or criticism of those that you have opinions about and are criticising.

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@Timid8967

Given you are a member of the LDS, do you see yourself as an elder in the church? And would you see all other churches - denominations as apostate?

I have some other questions - but perhaps it might be best if I started a new thread in the religious forum.

I too have some questions for the LDS 'sect'. When will you start it?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God

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@Tradesecret

@Bones

Why would I want to stop loving my parents? God is not asking us to do that. He values family. That is the point of my post.

Well once again Reverend, you are ignoring the contradictory BIBLICAL facts. And no surprises there is there?

Why would I want to stop loving my parents?

Indeed WHY!!!

“If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple".Luke 14:26

Are you now going to tell us that god doesn't mean "hate" at all? If that is going to be the case, then you have to explain what possible word can replace the word "hate" in any language and still make it sound sense..?

Are you now going to reinterpret and put new words into the mouth of Jesus? Or are you simply going to regurgitate what it is that you have been taught to simply " pass on"#20

You don’t really know anything about my background [<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<]

Well that isn't true at all, is it Reverend?

You have told this forum of your own free will , almost everything about your own daily life. No one pressed you for personal information, of which I find quite odd for a lawyer that ` instructs his clients never to offer any information`.. But at every chance you got you chose to reveal to us personal details about yourself, haven't you.

Why do you repeatedly encourage others to have to correct you and remind You of what You have freely informed the forum about yourself?

#20  Tradesecret

I am a lawyer.  There you go. Now you know. I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police.

No, I don't charge students, I charge universities when they request me to lecture to them.

But in my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care. And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation.  I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications.

I studied and was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church. #91

And your talents don't end there either !!!

Tradesecrete wrote: I study the original languages, translate them to English, #25
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5083-the-god-topic?page=1&post_number=25

AND:

I devote a significant amount of my resources in trying to prevent abortions from happening.

I also devote a significant amount of resources to programs which enable people to adopt children. I also devote a significant amount of my resources towards helping people who are left in homeless situations and are expected to be looked after by the government and its welfare programs.

I provide resources to my local church as well who have significant means of assisting people in impoverished places around the world and locally
#64
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5462-what-would-you-do-if-god-commands-you-to-murder?page=3

All this on top of farming and family too.? OR Are you now denying that this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^was you.

Are you saying that all the above was the invention of someone else?

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@Timid8967

My sister in law knows I am not a Christian. you asked me to ask her some questions which I said I would. And I will.

OK.. I asked you what her reaction was to your own anti everything religion.

So are you now saying she doesn't know yet that you want to see the bible burned on a fire?

Are you saying that she doesn't know yet that you believe Jesus is a complete myth?

Have you never told her that she is a follower of the worlds most "dangerous" religion?

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@Stephen
In Exodus, the nation of Israel is called God's firstborn son.[2] Solomon is also called "son of God".[3][4] Angels, just and pious men,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and the kings of Israel are all called "sons of God."<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God

Everyone in Israel is God’s child.

Yes it was me that pointed out to you that BIBLICAL FACT! But you are still in complete denial of the BIBLICAL FACTS!

take a closer look and read the references>>>

The term "son of God" is used in the Hebrew Bible as another way of referring to humans with special relationships with God. In Exodus, the nation of Israel is called God's firstborn son.[2] Solomon is also called "son of God".[3][4] Angels, just and pious men,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and the kings of Israel are all called "sons of God."[5]<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

In the New Testament of the Christian Bible, "Son of God" is applied to Jesus on many occasions.[5] Jesus is recognized to be the Son of God on two occasions by a voice speaking from Heaven. Jesus is explicitly and implicitly described as the Son of God by himself and by various individuals who appear in the New Testament.[5][6][7][8] Jesus is called "son of God," while followers of Jesus are called, "sons of God".[9] As applied to Jesus, the term is a reference to his role as the Messiah, or Christ, the King chosen by God [10] (Matthew 26:63). The contexts and ways in which Jesus' title, Son of God, means something more than or other than Messiah remain the subject of ongoing scholarly study and discussion.

The term "Son of God" should not be confused with the term "God the Son" (Greek: Θεός ὁ υἱός), the second Person of the Trinity in Christian theology. The doctrine of the Trinity identifies Jesus as God the Son, identical in essence but distinct in person with regard to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit (the first and third Persons of the Trinity). Nontrinitarian Christians accept the application to Jesus of the term "Son of God", which is found in the New Testament.

So simply stop with your continuous denials of biblical and historical facts.. They were >>>all <<<< called "sons of god". The words - sons of god - are the title that your god used for ALL the kings of Israel. You are just far too biblical ignorant to admit it and the fact that YOU simply didn't know.

I would normally say that one has every right to be embarrassed for not knowing this BIBLICAL AND HISTORICAL fact ,, BUT YOU have absolutely no excuse. You are a fully trained and qualified Pastor and Chaplain, aren't you? Haven't yo told us that you :

" was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church"#91 . And also say " I study the original languages, translate them to English". #25

Is it any wonder that you bring ALL of your alleged qualifications and ALL of your alleged achievements into question. I would hate you representing me in the fkn courtroom . But I suppose defence lawyers like yourself are taught to ignore the facts until they become scarlet in the face and suffocate themselves, like you often do.

What was it that you once told us? That you advise all your clients never to answer a yes or no question and to deny the fact?

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The Holy Trinity

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@Timid8967

My sister in law knows exactly my feelings about religion.

REALLY!!!!

Then YOU need to read this thread at #26 and#27 to see the great GLARING clanger you have dropped.

Why?

Well because at #26, I asked you;

Stephen wrote: What does your sister- in- law say when you tell her that she is following one of the most "dangerous religions" on the planet?

Do you have discussions with her about the "myth" of Christ? What was her reaction when you told her that you believe the bible belongs on the fire?

And your reply at #27 was:

Dimtim wrote: When I see her again I will talk to her.

Then we will perhaps know.

Do you see your giant balls up now, Dimtim?

If as you only now say, "My sister in law knows exactly my feelings about religion". Why didn't you simply say this when I initially asked you her felling about your anti religion stance, the "myth of Christ" and her reaction to that fact that you believe the bible belongs on the fire, AND answer the questions!!!?

Why would you have to aske her when you now say she already knows?

You are full of absolute shite and been caught out again.

So if as you say NOW that "she already knows", may be you can answer the question;

here you go;

What does your sister- in- law say when you tell her that she is following one of the most "dangerous religions" on the planet?

Do you have discussions with her about the "myth" of Christ? What was her reaction when you told her that you believe the bible belongs on the fire?

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@FLRW

@fauxlawWhat has now drastically reduced these deaths, faith or science?

A+1

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The Holy Trinity

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@Timid8967

Well I am sure it should make for an interesting conversation considering she obviously doesn't know that you are so anti everything religion?

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@Timid8967

I asked my sister in law - she is pretty clear about this. Baptism / christening - is only seeking to identify with the local church. it has nothing to do with "becoming a Christian".

What does your sister- in- law say when you tell her that she is following one of the most "dangerous religions" on the planet?

Do you have discussions with her about the "myth" of Christ? What was her reaction when you told her that you believe the bible belongs on the fire?

When I see her again I will talk to her.

So, what's she have to say?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God

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@fauxlaw

You trifle with things you do not understand

It is always someone else that "doesn't understand" with you lot, isn't it. It is never yourselves.

Faith is to hope for things which are not seen,but which are true.

Are you sure about that?

Ok so tell me man of letters and languages, why O why would one even bother with HOPE if someone has total faith in something to be "true"? OR if one truly has total faith that something will happen or that something is totally "TRUE"?

You see "hope" implies doubt, uncertainty, lack of faith and disbelief.

What ever happened to "faith in god alone"? Do the scriptures tell their congregations to have " hope" that god will or might deliver ? Or do the scriptures tell their congregations to have faith that god will deliver and he will deliver?

Or is this just you, once again, showing how completely bible ignorant you are and making things up as you go for the sake of making yourself appear to be right, knowledgeable and authoritative, of which you are neither.

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Are JWs christians?

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@zedvictor4

JW's are considered a cult by those that wish to consider them a cult....All very bitchy, I must say.

Club rules...What a palaver.

All very divisive and all very intolerant of others , isn't it.

What a right palaver, indeed. That's Matthew 22:39 " you shall love your neighbour as you love yourself" , clean out the window, isn't it.

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Are JWs christians?

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@Tradesecret

.....................................Make your posts shorter if you want me to respond.

I will make my post as long or short as they need to be. It would be simpler for you to not respond. Because I'd rather you didn't. You are just too thick to understand your own scriptures and only your god knows what you lecture all of those University Students about, they must be as bible dense as yourself , Reverend.

you not proved this

Typical Christian in denial of BIBLICAL FACT.

In Exodus, the nation of Israel is called God's firstborn son.[2] Solomon is also called "son of God".[3][4] Angels, just and pious men,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and the kings of Israel are all called "sons of God."<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The great commission is Christ’s mission for his church. It is not a personal agenda.

Stop talking bollocks! THE BIBLE makes it clear that the instructions are directed to the followers of Jesus directly. Stop denying what YOUR OWN scriptures say, you are making yourself look stupid AGAIN.

Jesus told his followers to " go make disciples of all nations" that is the agenda,and that is a biblical FACT! There is no mention of a church or churches in any part of that chapter.

Stop talking nonsense about me personally

If it warrants saying, I will say it. I have only quoted you where needs be and verbatim. You are the one that set yourself above the rest of us here , Reverend. That is unless your incredibly impressive Curriculum vitae and your impressive qualifications is all bullshite.

Stop talking nonsense

So is it all nonsense then? Have you been telling us all lies since you came here.

It might explain a few things , if this is the case.

I mean, how can anyone fail to be impressed that you find time for anything with all the activities that you tell us that you have going on in your life , Reverend.

YOU have freely and voluntarily told told US that you " was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church" . And say " I study the original languages, translate them to English".

YOU have freely and voluntarily told US that you are a fully trained a Criminal Lawyer that spends a lot of time in the courtroom with clients. That you are fully qualified Pastor, and a fully qualified Chaplain to the Australian Defence Force. A lecturer and a farmer, that spend much of your time doing charity work and you also tell us " I devote a significant amount of my resources in trying to prevent abortions".

AND

" I also devote a significant amount of resources to programs which enable people to adopt children. I also devote a significant amount of my resources towards helping people who are left in homeless situations and are expected to be looked after by the government and its welfare programs.

I provide resources to my local church as well who have significant means of assisting people in impoverished places around the world and locally."

Busy, Busy Busy aren't you, Reverend and you even find time to to come here a lecture us about who YOU deem not to be Christians

This is all off the top of my head and what I can only recall from memory you understand, so you will forgive me if I have left anything out.. I will try and get it all together in one bundle for you when I have the time..... With links.

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@Tradesecret

Yet it does mean I hate him. To let him continue without telling him it is wrong would suggest I don’t care for him. By informing him I actually reveal my care and concern and I fact that I do love him. I love him enough to tell him.

And that equates with the death penalty in your world does it?

I am sure you see the flaw in your utter bullshite don't you.?

Tell me, how does god reveal his love and care to a homosexual that he has just ordered beheaded or stoned to death? And once he has ordered the removal of the homosexual head , how does he then tell the homosexual that he loves and cares for him?

Or does god first tell the homosexual that he loves and cares for him and then proceed to order the removal the homosexuals head .

You see you have attempted to make this slaughterous death penalty an act of grace and compassion for the sentenced homosexual on behalf of your adopted god.. In other words, you are as usual ,attempting to defend the indefensible and to justify the unjustifiable.

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@Tradesecret

And you never proved it. Sons of God for all Israel kings.

Ok. So you want to drag up an old argument that you hadn't even a clue about until I pointed the facts out to you.

The proof comes from your adopted god himself, you clown. But then you have never read these scriptures for yourself have you. You have only had them read to you and just "passed on" what you have been taught to pass on and without an "agenda", from what I recall you telling me. I shall see if I can dig it out for you.

"Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, my firstborn. (Exodus 4:22)

Are you saying this would EXCLUDE his chosen kings? Your adopted god makes it perfectly clear who his sons are.

Then there is :

Jeremiah 31:20

Deuteronomy 14:1

Psalm 82:6

Jeremiah 3:19

Psalm 73:15

Then god also calls these particular kings his "sons" directly:

God said of Solomon : King Solomon: He shall be a son to Me, and I will be a Father to him. I Chronicles 22:9-10

God said of David: You are My son; today I have begotten you."Psalms 2:7

Yes here we are, a Pastor. Chaplain that " simply passes on" but has no agenda>>

the Reverend Tradesecret wrote: I in most parts are merely passing on the teaching of what i have received. I do not have an agenda. I really don't.

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4906-atheist-creed?page=1&post_number=20

You must be the only Pastor/ Chaplain in the whole world that has forgotten his "agenda"and the direct instruction given to all followers of Jesus and from the mouth of Jesus himself. I have highlighted it clearly for you.

It is commonly known as The Great Commission

Matthew 28:16-20

New International Version

The Great Commission

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

And just who the fk do you think you are to say someone is or isn't a Christian? Where do you get the authority to make such a decree?

I have proven your own persistent bible ignorance and multiple failings.

You know nothing about the scriptures that you spout about and " simply pass on" . You know nothing of your adopted god. You don't know what your purpose is as a minister of god. You know very little about many of the biblical characters. In truth, you know nothing. But you believe that you can designate who is and who isn't a Christian!!!?

Oh and seeing that YOU brought the subject up, tell me, what does Jesus about the peacemakers?

ESV

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.Matthew 5:9

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THAT IT WAS YOU THAT STEERED THIS DISCUSSION IN THE DIRECTION IT NOW SEEMS TO BE HEADING IN.

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@Timid8967

This is clearly in my topic opener. I am not avoiding discussing the flaws - I am just not discussing them with you.

So you are taking home your ball because you have been called out.

You already disagree with the presuppositions so you would not be able to add anything relevantly for me.

You don't have the first clue what it is that I do or don't agree with concerning Presuppostionalism. This is why I would like to see these "fundamental flaws" that you keep referring to. And you won't know until you can produce them.

I explained exactly what it is that I agree with you on and those agreements have nothing to do with what you are now calling the " fundamentally flawed"

I agree. And I ALREADY said so above that the two things were separate. SEE response to second quote HERE>> #9 Stephen

AND LET US BE VERY CLEAR HERE >>>>>, it is YOU that mentioned "fundamental flaws" not me. I am still waiting for YOU to produce and highlight the "fundamental flaws" that YOU keep referring to .

You have already distracted the topic far enough anyway.

No you did that all on your own. I have only responded to you and what YOU had to say about ME. I asked you more that once now to stay on your own topic and to highlight these " fundamental flaws" that YOU mention in your OWN OP! and to " get this thread truly underway".

I would like christians who believe it to be true - so that I can test what I perceive to be fundamental flaws on them.

Is what true, exactly? That Christians are of the arrogant belief that only a Christian can think rational when it comes to discussing Christianity , Jesus, god and the bible, which just also happen to be all the things that YOU don't believe in.

What you think or care is becoming tiresome.

I haven't be able to say or think or care about the "fundamental flaws" either. You see you haven't produced them yet have you?

Let me just remind you what I said at post #7

Stephen wrote: But for now I am more prepared to just sit back and listen to your argument with whoever may wish to see and discuss these "flaws" in the Christian apologetic argument.

You could have left IT and ME me right there, but you didn't. You kept plugging away at me . Did you really expect me not to respond to the shite that you invented and imagined about me that you posted about me here>>#8 Timid8967

You have no need to carry on this conversation with me. So leave it there and simply produce those "fundamental flaws" that you wish to discuss with no one but Christians.

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@Timid8967

Do what you like. I don't care what you believe or don't believe. I don't care if you listen to me or don't. It is of no interest to me

Did you write this? What does it mean?

I did write it. It means exactly what it says. You said you wanted to sleep on something that YOU had invented about ME.

I said you are welcome to do what it is you like. I see now that you are actually avoiding discussing your own topic.

So now, let us see these "fundamental flaws" that you mention, and get this thread truly underway.

Did you write this? What does it mean?

Yes I wrote that. It means instead of discussing yourself or I , lets see these "fundamental flaws" that you keep referring to so we can discuss those. But for some odd reason aren't prepared to highlight these "flaws" for us to discuss. I see now that you are actually avoiding discussing your own topic.

Oh that is right. You don't have a freaking clue?

Of course I do silly. See above I have explained them for you. And is all I see now that you are actually avoiding discussing your own topic.

You don't care what I believe and then you want me to provide fundamental flaws.

I said that don't care if or not you believe what I have to say , and that I don't care if you listen to me or you don't listen to me. or what it is that you you believe about me. Now count how many times I refer to myself in that sentence. I see now that you are actually avoiding discussing your own topic. LOOOOOK>>

Stephen wrote:#9

Stephen Do what you like. I don't care what you believe or don't believe. I don't care if you listen to me or don't. It is of no interest to me

But I thought you did not care? And if you do - then aargghhh - -

I don't care what you think or believe about me, is what I have clearly said first time around.Or believe or not believe what I what I have to say. I see now that you are actually avoiding discussing your own topic.

If you are not a Christian who believes these presuppositions then there is no point in discussing them with you.

Then it is all as I have guessed. You have simply fell at the first fence and are avoiding discussing your own topic. But I am not surprised in the least. There used to be complete utter bellend here once that used to do exactly what you have done and did it often. Just like you have done, he too would start a thread that would regret starting the second he was asked his first question.

You do realize how often you seem to contradict yourself?

Like I have said, the - not caring - is all about ME not caring what it is that YOU think of believe about ME and what it is that I write. I hope that clears that up.

So, are we going to see these "fundamental flaws" you keep banging on about, or not? It appears that it is only I that is showing any interest in these "fundamental flaws" anyway. So when you are ready.

Or are you going to take your ball home now?

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Why I left Christianity

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@fauxlaw

I am making argument from Underdog’s perspective;

I know, he used the word - - if -- didn't he? And then this is what you say about anyone but your self that uses the word "IF", isn't it.

#30 fauxlaw

If is, by utility, the most useless word in existence because it acknowledges only that which is currently not true. Not a great beginning to an attempt at logic.

Like I have said, you are not as clever or as educated as you think you are.....or at least claim to be .

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Paul's Message is Irrefutable

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@SkepticalOne

It seems clear you're running away from the OP as fast as you can at this point. ;-)

Indeed . He totally went to pieces when I put this question to him, it was the final nail in his coffin..#43

And unbeknownst to you, you helped him run away from his OP. He was more than happy to let you help him bury his embarrassment.

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4 years ago

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Are UFO’s a Government Conspiracy?

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@Reece101

Are UFO’s a Government Conspiracy?

For decades my thoughts have always been that, would we know if they weren't our own to camouflage those that come from outside? And as already been mentioned, UFO means nothing more that something flying that hasn't or cannot be identified.

I see no reason, Reece , that life shouldn't exist anywhere else out there.

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@Bones

Religious children do not exist.

Not until their parents and their parents church get hold on them, I'm afraid,Bones.

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@fauxlaw

Did I mention one word about religion or God

Oh stop it, FFS!

The thread is about children in regards to religion.

Are you trying to tell us that you were talking completely off topic with your first post about something entirely different to that which is suggested by the OP?

You must think that we was all born yesterday, sunshine. You are a real tit when your are caught cold aren't you.

AND I did ask you; "How do you mean"?

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@fauxlaw

What I'm saying, people like you, is that you do nothing but complain.

And what is it precisely that you are saying that I complain about? It appears to me that it is YOU that is the one doing all the complaining about " people like me"#109 fauxlaw

I don't complain about the bible.

I don't want it thrown on a fire like your ` new` friend does.

Yet I notice not once have you pulled your ` new` best buddy dimwit for his vehement anti everything religion stance. Why is that?

I don't complain about anyone for being religious or christian or having a faith. I haven't said "Christianity should be cancelled" and called it the "most dangerous religion in particular" , have I?

I haven't said the Jesus story is a "myth". No, that was ALL your ` new ` found buddy complaining all over the forum wasn't it. It certainly wasn't me.

It wasn't me that came here complaining that Christians are "weird" either. No, that was your `new` found buddy dimtim of whom you haven't had a single bad word to say against! Not ONE!

Yet here you are, like the coward you are,complaining about me with false allegations of me complaining. FKN priceless!

Your problem sunshine is that you, like all other Christians simply cannot defend these scriptures when put under the least of scrutiny. And as clever and as educated as you think you are, or allege to be, you simply are not equipped to do so.

And that is your baby, so " Y'ALL"should rock it.

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