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@Crocodile
this is why i hate far right conservatives.I'm lean left but health experts know more than a news reporter or a random kid on a random debate website.
IKR? they question just about everything, want facts, reliable stats as much information as possible sheesh their nerve, they should just shut the hell up and trust the government without question. I totally understand where you are coming from.
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@PGA2.0
given the broad and seeming all encompassing definition of what is really, now a meaningless word then you could really apply it to anyone and everyone.
black skin is superior to desert regions, there for superior in that climate, fact but racist apparently.
people with blue eyes tend to be more light sensitive but can see in darker light better, racist
or is it because they are factual they aren't negative which doesn't meet the definition?
I think you are "ascribing motive" because Darwin believe in his factual, science findings and as a result formed his opinion, he believe because of TRAITS which he believe were scientific led him to his conclusions, which doesn't fit the definition. And see the definitions are backwards " a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" that's not true afaik, he found his facts, made his hypothesis and applied that to the race, those traits are the primary determinant not the race itself, that race just happens to have those traits.
Racism is a negative bias or prejudice.
that's emotion, facts are science are not, facts don't care about your feelings (I love that saying, had to use it)
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@PGA2.0
well now you are talking about bias and not racism so if you want to say he had a bias I could agree with that.
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@HistoryBuff
since you don't seem to be able to do a quick search
how's that?
Sunlight destroys coronavirus quickly, say US scientists
Natural sunlight rapidly inactivates SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus on surfaces
this sounds pretty good, but I don't have time to read it all
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@PGA2.0
Yet his ideology led to social Darwinism, a form of racism.
was it his ideology or his scientific findings, which isn't a reflection on him as to what it led to.
you seem to be conflating fact finding (even highly flawed or wrong) with some opinions taken out of context or extreme even based on the science.
from this thread (I'm not an authority on Darwin) but he made observations, hypothesis etc. We know he was wrong, but he didn't. Racism isn't based on facts or science is it?
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@ILikePie5
government manipulating, influencing etc other parts under threat of with holding money is nothing new, but since it's Trump they all went stupid and forgot all the administrations that had done it before him, simply amazing this selective memory.
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@Lunatic
it's amazing how one group of people can "own" a word. would really suck if your last name was lynch, which IS an actual last name.
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@PGA2.0
I'm suggesting the outcome if your follow the thinking through to is consequences because what is happening here is a form of devaluation, perhaps even dehumanization. When you start treating some people as not as valuable as others based on some physical or mental attribute you can devalue their life out of existence as well, such as with abortion. This has been the position taken with slavery, the protection of the Jews, Aparthied in South Africa, and the caste system of India, and yes, abortion, to name a few.
of course, we know that now, we've learned, adapted and changed, I'm not challenging any of that, only the claim that Darwin was racist because of his science.
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@ILikePie5
if only the federal government would stay out of state issues more......too many cooks....
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@Dr.Franklin
the cases are risisng because of the hot temperatures and people need to be inside to avoid the sweltering heat being more susceptible to it.
wait, what? I thought it was the beaches even though sunlight and humidity kills the virus. Nope no conflicting statements at all, clear as mud.
(side note) did you see where labs falsely increased their positive numbers by as much as 10 TIMES? and they weren't reporting the negative tests either..... sure do love me some stats!!! lol
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@n8nrgmi
firstly, if schools don't open wouldn't their expenses be greatly reduced? so why would you give them money for not operating? what other business or entity works that way?
aren't there some daycares still operating?
the claim is there are studies that child to parent transmission is very unlikely, many other countries have opened their schools and have not seen an increase in cases so.....
I believe they closed schools for a year during the spanish flu pandemic and that generation was negatively affected because of it.
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@PGA2.0
You are speaking of the physical or quantitative (that which can be measured through the five senses).
correct because it's my assertion that is what Darwin was doing, hence not racist as some have tried to claim.
Are some humans to be treated as superior because they have a higher IQ than others?
LOL of course they are, they get more scholarships, college aid, better course choices, school choices etc
as soon as you met someone with a higher IQ should not that person determine what to do with you and whether you live or die?
do racists have that authority or power? I'm not sure where this live or die came from, but I said nothing remotely like that.
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@PGA2.0
If you don't see someone as being as evolved as you are you tend to discriminate against them in your thinking (at least, perhaps even in your actions) of yourself as superior, not equal.
we are not equal, someone with a physical handicap is not equal to someone without in certain ways, someone with legs IS superior at running compared to someone without. Point being they were making these assumptions based on flawed/wrong science. Human are superior to monkeys but not in every way, but more ways than not based on our knowledge and understanding, perhaps we'll learn that we are wrong someday. but based on what we know and science humans are more evolved and superior.
still doesn't prove racism imo
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@PGA2.0
if you are making a determination by observation, logic, science I don't see how it's racist, again at that time period they obviously didn't know as much as we do now, afaik they were attempting to use science and logic to compare and contrast, discover, whatever, hardly racist. Unless you can show otherwise I'm not convinced but feel free to change my mind, I certainly would never pretend I know more than I do. Well, not this time anyway :)
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@PGA2.0
again, it's just a meaningless word now.
but if Darwin came to conclusions via the science available to him at the time, I don't see any of those applying.
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@TheUnderdog
you think tribalism is bad now LOL open up the borders and watch. talk about chaos, power grabbing and kingdom building. There are many religions which are compatible with each other. Even with the current borders etc Christianity spreads. Open borders you may as well kill off your competition while you convert. It would be out in the open but I can't see why it wouldn't happen.
Have you thought about unintended consequences?
imagine the blackmarket profiteers, their main stumbling block is borders and border security, now if that was gone?
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@ILikePie5
it's fine, the word lacks any real meaning, affect or impact. Amazing how a group who is rabid about tolerance and inclusion is so intolerant and judgemental. How long before pedos are just another protected class, I can see it happening given their mindset of nothing is wrong.
Certain "genetics" mostly unique to peoples origins have disadvantages. Sickle cell anemia is a good one.
If a race is not predisposed to diabetes, high blood pressure etc then wouldn't that race or group be superior to those that are prone to those diseases/disorders?
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@Greyparrot
the control issues are just frightening. Personally I would have added "President Trump also passed the right to try law" just as an extra dig.
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@ronjs
Racism is wrong and people who discriminate against any group of people are wrong. Don't see your point.
racism is wrong and I totally understand why you don't see my point, many who can't objectively look at things have great difficulty understanding any other point of view except their own and those who agree with them, so I totally understand why you don't see it.
do you think those with a lot of melanin in their skin would have a big advantage living in very sunny and hot climates?
but to your topic, is it racism if Darwin was basing what he thought on the science and things they knew at the time? Just because they were wrong and the science then is very poor compared to what we know now doesn't mean it's racism.
something else to consider the word racism has really lost any meaning and effect because of how it's easily used and misused, but such is human language.
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@ronjs
It is racist, because it is untrue.
so it couldn't be that the person is just wrong, but they actually have to be racist, gotcha, cry wolf much?
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@Dr.Franklin
he'll debate a mirror, just put one up in front of him.
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@fauxlaw
it's like weekend at Bernie's, they are hoping to carry/drag him across the finish line then whom ever the v.p. is will take over. Rest assured the v.p. will be horrible for the average person but wonderful for the leftist.
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@sadolite
haven't had time to verify, but apparently now the claim is that's unlikely if not virtually impossible to catch covid off of objects, which is NOT what was being said before.
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@ILikePie5
it's funny this claim that Fox fear mongering is driving first time gun purchases(ers) when I would bet Fox watchers already had guns and leftist don't watch or would believe anything not on their liberal media channels.
gun permits have increased the most during the COVID-19 pandemic in states that tend to be more liberal, both in terms of citizen ideology and political party of state governor.Michigan, the site of some of the more contentious anti-lockdown protests, saw a nearly 340% increase in gun permits from February to April 2020.
well anyway, this really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
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@HistoryBuff
your first link
There are some infected people who are “truly asymptomatic,” she said, but countries that are doing detailed contact tracing are “not finding secondary transmission onward” from those cases. “It’s very rare,” she said.
and
At the WHO event Tuesday, officials stressed that even as scientists are still learning more about the virus and how it spreads“suggests that asymptomatically-infected individuals are much less likely to transmit the virus than those who develop symptoms,” according to WHO’s interim guidance on masks issued last week.
your other link
The absence of COVID-19 symptoms in persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 might not necessarily imply an absence of harm. More research is needed to determine the significance of subclinical lung changes visible on computed tomography scans.
love the qualifying statements in that one, might, they love that word
ah suggesting, another fave.
We must therefore acknowledge the possibility that some of the proportions of asymptomatic persons are lower than reported.
there's a lot more but I don't have the time or will to read it all, but feel free to quote what you think is pertinent.
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@HistoryBuff
there is no proof that asymptomatic people spread it, only that's it's possible, how many hospitalized got it even though they followed all the guidelines? I'm not convinced asymptomatic people should be forced to wear masks under threat of imprisonment, force or by people with guns.
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@HistoryBuff
actively sick......sneezing, coughing like I said before.
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@Greyparrot
@sadolite
don't recall her name but they said she could possibly be a Biden v.p. pick, anyway she tested positive and when interviewed she was so shocked since she wore a mask and did everything they recommended. I wonder how many of the deaths and people in the hospital did everything they were supposed to do and they got it anyway. You'd think that would be an extremely important detail to track. Also how many did they themselves infect? It's highly contagious, you'd think along with the person hospitalized there would be a couple more they came into contact with, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Isn't that a bit strange when you think about it?
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@HistoryBuff
your lack of understanding is just too frustrating for me, I keep repeating myself but you are too arrogant and closed minded to even try to understand, yes masks should be worn by those actively sick, i've said that and I'll say it again, I'm not convinced those who are NOT SICK need to wear them. maybe you can only understand things in small bites like this.
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@HistoryBuff
right that guy and his wife when faced with up to 500 people some reports claim, who broke down their locked security gate were affected by fear mongering, gotcha, also why did they need more than 10 rounds? oh nvm.
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@HistoryBuff
you think? how about the 12 year old boy knocked down by the big black man? the guy being attacked while at work? there's an awful lot of instances aside from rogue cops and white supremacist that would motivate first time gun purchasers, many of which, ironically are learning that the laws they supported are now biting them in the ass.
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@HistoryBuff
what are you talking about? Are you saying that the FDA is telling people not to wear masks? What facts am I ignoring?
how masks work and what they will and won't filter etc
anyway it's clear you are convinced you know everything and aren't willing to consider anyone else's opinions or sides without bashing them
simply don't believe facts or reality. Some of them are too stupid to understand.
I'm done with this topic, there's no more point in it.
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record setting gun sales again, shortages of guns and ammo :(
NY defunding works? um
I wonder why the rush to buy guns?
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@HistoryBuff
you can explain to people till you are blue in the face that it is a bad idea to drink and drive. people will still do it.
oh I totally get where you are coming from, if they won't do what you want force them under threat of law or people with guns, I totally understand your point of view, personally just because it's difficult and you won't succeed 100% shouldn't mean you just result to force, but I know you disagree with that.
people will still do it
that really made me laugh because I said the same thing about gun laws and you turn around and use the same argument, it's pretty darn funny, doubt you'd admit it.
Why would you think that a study didn't study anything?
well, there was no number of people in the study, pretty much no criteria for the study, other than it may, might take my word for it, I don't consider that proof.
massively reduces the spread of covid is still a huge improvement.
it might reduce the spread of covid from asymptomatic people.
it is a fact that a mask massively reduces the risk of your saliva ending up on another person or surface they may touch
your opinion is not fact as evidenced by your "studies" that use terms like may or might etc
also your examples of things you can NOT do is vastly different than a government trying to MAKE you do something. again driving and the most of the examples you gave weren't rights anyway, which I though you'd understand after all the posts about them.
you can choose not to believe the f.d.a. and what they state about masks, you seem to ignore the facts and accept maybe, might as factual statements.
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@HistoryBuff
I don't know the answer to that. There is certainly room for discussion about what kinds of masks should be worn, how often they should be swapped etc. But problem number 1 is convincing people that wearing a mask isn't some attack on your freedom, it is an attempt to save your (and everyone else's) life.
helping people make an informed choice is the best way of convincing people, not demanding, shaming, forcing etc
More recent studies (that I have already linked) showed between 20-40% of cases could be asymptomatic transmitters.
those where studies, they didn't actually study people or anything, it was assumptions.
Covid is like 10-30 times more deadly than the flu. Comparing them is kind of silly.
then you clearly missed the point, there's always a risk as I said, there always will be, just like flu, I'm not sure how else to explain it to you.
IE saliva carries corona, and masks stop saliva.
reduces =/= stop
You can't walk around naked.
tell that to nudist and nude beach goers
Newsflash, ladies: it’s legal to go topless in New York State.
Women in six U.S. states are now effectively allowed to be topless in public, according to a new ruling by the U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals. ... The court's ruling determined the law was based on "negative stereotypes depicting women's breasts, but not men's breasts, as sex objects."Sep 20, 2019
anyway, it is an infringement on rights to be forced to wear a mask, they and you try to justify it, even if it is justified it's still and infringement right?
have decided that they are necessary to protect people.
I want proof not "maybe" "might" and assumptions, just the facts.
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@HistoryBuff
that seems to be an argument for swapping out your mask after use. It is in no way an argument against wearing a mask.
I don't know, how long does it take before the mask becomes ineffective? swapping it out makes sense for sure, but for how long? how long are they designed to be worn?
So the best way to get the virus under control is for everyone to wear masks and social distance.
social distance is #1, unless you want to say just stay home.
here's the thing, you'd think there would be better info about asymptomatic people and their ability to spread or not right? this isn't new science
2009 flu
The minimal data that does exist, Bogoch said, does point to relatively uncommon transmission.For those few studies, the asymptomatic transmission rate ranged from 0% to 2.2%, while the symptomatic transmission rate ranged from 0.8% to 15.4%.“From our research we estimate that asymptomatic people transmit about 40% less than symptomatic people,” she said, noting that could be because those people are infectious for a shorter period of time and because they produce fewer infectious respiratory droplets because they’re not coughing or sneezing.
In summary, all the 455 contacts were excluded from SARS-CoV-2 infection and we conclude that the infectivity of some asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carriers might be weak.
you can get flu year round also, so while it's still possible I don't think the risk and effectiveness of masks is worth a rights violation.
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@HistoryBuff
a damp cloth won't absorb as much as a dry cloth, your breath is human and whatever kind of mask you wear absorbs some of that humidity....up to a saturation point.
anyway, according to the fda
If worn properly, a surgical mask is meant to help block large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter that may contain germs (viruses and bacteria), keeping it from reaching your mouth and nose. Surgical masks may also help reduce exposure of your saliva and respiratory secretions to others.
While a surgical mask may be effective in blocking splashes and large-particle droplets, a face mask, by design, does not filter or block very small particles in the air that may be transmitted by coughs, sneezes, or certain medical procedures. Surgical masks also do not provide complete protection from germs and other contaminants because of the loose fit between the surface of the mask and your face.Surgical masks are not intended to be used more than once. (and yet they are used again many, many times)
I've also read (but I'll have to look deeper) that they haven't recovered vial virus from the air in covid positive patient rooms. Which is extremely interesting. If not enough is airborne in doors from regular breathing and talking that's pretty significant. Certainly anyone coughing, sneezing or suspected of being sick definitely needs to take all precautions.
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@Crocodile
I really don't care if they work.CDC says if we wear them, we'll reopen.I'll wear them.
that's your choice, let's keep it that way.
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@Greyparrot
@ILikePie5
@Crocodile
seen similar posted up, tbh it makes sense and I haven't been able to find anything to contradict it
"I don’t really know WHY OSHA hasn’t come forward and stopped the nonsense BUT I want to cover 3 things
• N95 masks and masks with exhale ports
• surgical masks
• filter or cloth masks
Okay, so upon further inspection, OSHA says some masks are okay and not okay in certain situations.
If you’re working with fumes and aerosol chemicals and you give your employees the wrong masks and they get sick, you can be sued.
• N95 masks: are designed for CONTAMINATED environments. That means when you exhale through N95 the design is that you are exhaling into contamination. The exhale from N95 masks are vented to breath straight out without filtration. They don’t filter the air on the way out. They don’t need to.
Conclusion: if you’re in Target and the guy with Covid has a N95 mask, his covid breath is unfiltered being exhaled into Target (because it was designed for already contaminated environments, it’s not filtering your air on the way out).
• Surgical Mask: these masks were designed and approved for STERILE environments. The amount of particles and contaminants in the outside and indoor environments where people are CLOGGING these masks very, VERY quickly. The moisture from your breath combined with the clogged mask will render it “useless” IF you come in contact with Covid and your mask traps it, YOU become a walking virus dispenser. Everytime you put your mask on you are breathing the germs from EVERYWHERE you went. They should be changed or thrown out every “20-30 minutes in a non sterile environment.”
• Cloth masks: I can’t even believe I’m having to explain this, but here it goes. Today, three people pointed to their masks as they walked by me entering Lowe’s. They said “ya gotta wear your mask BRO” I said very clearly “those masks don’t work bro, in fact they MAKE you sicker” they “pshh’d” me. By now hopefully you all know CLOTH masks do not filter anything. You mean the American flag one my aunt made? Yes. The one with sunflowers that looks so cute? Yes. The bandanna, the cut up t-shirt, the scarf ALL of them offer NO FILTERING whatsoever. As you exhale, you are ridding your lungs of contaminants and carbon dioxide. Cloth masks trap this carbon dioxide the best. It actually risks your health, rather than protect it. The moisture caught in these masks can become mildew ridden over night. Dry coughing, enhanced allergies, sore throat are all symptoms of a micro-mold in your mask.
-Ultimate Answer:
*N95 blows the virus into the air from a contaminated person.
*The surgical mask is not designed for the outside world and will not filter the virus upon inhaling through it. It’s filtration works on the exhale, (Like a vacuum bag, it only works one way) but likely stops after 20 minutes, rendering it useless outside of a STERILE ENVIRONMENT (correct Becky, they don’t work in a bar, not even a little bit).
*Cloth masks are WORSE than none. It’s equivalent to using a chain link fence to stop mosquitos.
The CDC wants us to keep wearing masks. The masks don’t work. They’re being used to provide false comfort and push forward a specific agenda. For the love of God, research each mask’s designed use and purpose, I bet you will find NONE are used in the way of “viral defense.”"
credit to original creator, who ever that is.
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@bmdrocks21
banning is much easier than making people stop killing each other apparently. the average "lifespan" of an illegal gun on the streets is 14 years (before it's recovered in a crime). guns are passed around, stolen, purchased etc in the black market.
they aren't exactly solving a whole lot of crimes in Chicago which had another banner weekend.
even if they could suddenly stop the legal sales of guns they are stolen from police and military bases now, I would think that would just increase. Though after a few hundred years you might see some change, maybe, but since crime has been decreasing anyway I'm not sure you could really say why, we won't be around to discuss it anyway.
it's always easier to blame the thing than to place responsibility where it rightfully belongs, that's the American way.
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@Castin
the best mitigation is staying home right? it's much better than a mask ever could be. I'm sure people are only making necessary trips because they don't want to put others in danger, yeah right.
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@sadolite
I know, I was trying to see if they could reach their conclusion on their own.
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@Greyparrot
@ILikePie5
that's what I'm saying, they could have made businesses only cater to those wearing masks and reopened many weeks ago.
help me understand though
first we had to save masks to protect healthcare workers, there was a shortage etc right?
now we wear masks to protect others?
is it just me or is that totally 2 opposite statements?
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@ILikePie5
In some areas they threaten businesses with fines if they let people in without masks, seems easy enough to reopen most businesses.
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@Greyparrot
So since we are supposed to be 6 feet apart, guess masks are very situational. I'm not a close talker. It all sounds uncertain enough that they shouldn't be violating rights over it.
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@Crocodile
how does it protect others? if the material is porous how does it stop the virus from passing through? masks don't fit tight all the way around the face and air escapes out the sides, top and bottom as well. Have you seen the guys face who is wearing a surgical type mask while sanding sheet rock? I'm not seeing any real effectiveness of these masks. If it can escape out the top, sides, bottom and that doctor contracted it from getting it in his eyes (he was wearing a mask etc, thinks that's the only way he could have gotten it) then how useful are masks really?
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@Crocodile
how does something so porous as a surgical mask or fabric block something so small as a virus?
can't I just pull up the front of my tee shirt, over my nose and mouth when needed?
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