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@Nemiroff
the local organization which includes several hospitals also includes many practices and specialties in the communities. I'm not sure how many hospitals are stand alone and are the only source of income, that don't have any other ancillary lines of businesses, but I would think they are pretty darn small.
Most hospital workers are not obsessed with the budget, that includes the doctors.
wow that's a new one on me, all the hospitals and workers I've encountered are very concerned with finances, to the point they are limited in what they can purchase and use. Many healthcare facilities cut hours and or temp laid off employees because of low census and decreased revenue. If I wanted to keep my job I'd be concerned with my employers budget and revenue etc.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
So you are saying here "there is a more efficient way that money could have done more good".
I asked that question, I never said that, clearly you can't help yourself and G.P. was correct to ignore you, as shall I. It's not possible to have a normal conversation when you constantly and incorrectly assume, claim things said that weren't. have a nice life.
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@Death23
key words
Likely
there are pending lawsuits challenging certain provisions of stay-home orders
most courts
have you watched the video of the doctor, think he is a surgeon explaining masks? he goes into sizes of virus and the size of particals masks block. With the WHO and Dr. Fauci saying healthy people did need masks etc (sure they changed their minds but still), I think there's plenty to challenge any mask laws, which imo is why there hasn't been any AND publicly announced no one will be arrested or fined.
If this was settled without a doubt, many cities would have implemented it by now. Again the fact they allowed the riots and looting negates any claim of how critical masks and social distancing is.
Oregon county issues face mask order that exempts nonwhite people
anyway state of Alaska exempted some state employees but I think you get the gist of all the exceptions making masks not that important, not enough to curtail rights. I mean how can you argue their importance based on all the times they weren't but if consistent should have been?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
wow, you have a big imagination, you implied and assumed what he was thinking rather than reading the words right in front of you.
he actually said "|Charity is simply manifested ego. Gates decides how that money is spent, not the world." I can see both of those statements as being true, without adding anything additional that was not said.
people donate for a variety of reasons, I shouldn't have assumed you'd know this. they funnel money like the almost defunct Clinton foundation, tax right offs and yes even egos. look at what a good person I am for my charity.
wouldn't true charity be donating money and allowing people who know more use it to the most good?
do you know if that money was used to produce food,water etc that it would have saved more lives for a longer period of time then the vaccines? Vaccines are a good thing for those that get them, but once that money is gone, then what? I've never looked at the stats but how many die from lack of vaccine vs starving or something else preventable. That's how I look at it anyway.
you think he should denounce your assumptions and attacks? wow talk about ego lol can't blame him for ignoring that b.s.
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@Death23
the constitutionality isn't finished afaik, appeals happen etc, but again, even if it is my point still stands, if you want to take a winning lap for an unenforceable law, feel free, pretty hollow win.
I don't think the issue is final or settled, temporary at best.
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@Death23
ok guess it went over your head
cop: why aren't you wearing a mask
mask-less citizen: I have a medical condition
cop: ok have a nice day.
cop: why aren't you wearing a mask
mask-less citizen: I have a medical condition
cop: what condition is that?
mask-less citizen: HiPAA, my right to privacy, 5th amendment says I don't have to tell you.
cop: ok have a nice day.
there is no way to enforce or implement such a law.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
People should be forced to spend their own money the way I want them to spend it- Also Greyparrot
where did he say that? you often do this for whatever defect you have, I know you can't help but maybe try, get some help if you need it.
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@Death23
I have a medical condition
prove me wrong
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@Greyparrot
doctors get a bonus/extra pay based on their r.v.u.s, there is finical incentive for them to see more patients than they reasonably could, hence double booking appointments and 1 hour plus wait time AFTER your appointment time.
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@Greyparrot
I kind of forgot about the financial incentive, which also pads the death rate. It's a shame we can't be give the best facts possible to make an informed choice.
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@Death23
there are still pending lawsuits, but let's assume you are correct and they can make such an order or law, it's not really enforceable on the general public, business it is, but not private citizens out in public it would seem.
some addition info
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@Nemiroff
What kind of comparison is that? None of those are contagious. You won't get obesity by going to a rally with obese people there!
it shows a glaringly inconsistency with regards to "saving lives" it should be painfully obvious
Ok, what is filling our icu beds then?
a gentleman had covid before his return to the nursing home, the nursing home tested him, he still tested positive so they returned him to the icu for nothing more than keeping him isolated, he showed no signs of the illness, mind you this is also a level 1 trauma center, not some little rural hospital. I wonder how common this is.
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@HistoryBuff
so from your WHO link
There are some infected people who are “truly asymptomatic,” she said, but countries that are doing detailed contact tracing are “not finding secondary transmission onward” from those cases. “It’s very rare,” she said.“The WHO created confusion yesterday when it reported that asymptomatic patients rarely spread the disease,” an email from the Harvard Global Health Institute said Tuesday. “All of the best evidence suggests that people without symptoms can and do readily spread SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19.
where is this best evidence?
it could be that they still expel infectious droplets through singing, yelling, or even talking
it could be not
the WHO has also received data from member countries that “suggests that asymptomatically-infected individuals are much less likely to transmit the virus than those who develop symptoms,”
love the words, suggests, much less likely, real hard evidence right there.
your other link
We must therefore acknowledge the possibility that some of the proportions of asymptomatic persons are lower than reported.
the like to use the word suggest....often
the annals link is very long, if you think there's something concrete in that quote it, I'm not going to read and study the whole thing.
so the use of cloth face coverings is particularly important in settings where people are close to each other or where social distancing is difficult to maintain.
distancing > face coverings
Although wearing a mask can potentially help prevent the spread of infection, it should be considered an add-on, not a replacement, for physical distancing and hand hygiene. Staying away from others and vigilant hand-washing are truly the pillars of prevention, and have been proven to be effective in ‘flattening the curve” and decreasing the flow of people to our hospitals.
so we want people arrested for not wearing masks, but rioting, looting and protesting in large groups is ok, any idea why people think this is all b.s.? Can you see it from their point of view by removing the leftist blinders?
here's the problem
if there's factual information, not opinion to refute things like this, I haven't seen it yet.
bottom line is no one really knows much, especially to force citizens to wear masks.
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@HistoryBuff
but something like 20% - 45% of cases could spread with the person showing no symptoms according to studies.
how many actually have? I've posted the study where zero have spread.
CDC reccomending wearing masks.John's Hopkins recommending wearing masks.
I understand how the virus might be spread, however there is a thing called viral load, you need a certain number/amount to actually infect a person. Again talking does not create that much nor does it float and or survive in the air that long. These a are theories, guesses at best.
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@HistoryBuff
You could be infected and you wouldn't necessarily know it.
can you provide some legit evidence it can be transmitted from asymptomatic people?
nothing at all if you are now agreeing that because covid is so much deadlier that masks are absolutely needed.
can you provide some legit evidence on the effectiveness of masks for asymptomatic people?
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@Death23
unfortunately I don't have time and I'm not going to try and do it on my phone, but I believe the courts have struck down laws making masks mandatory, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I heard that.
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@Death23
If the crime is not wearing the mask in certain situations all you have to prove is that they didn't wear the mask in that situation. It could be prosecuted just as any other crime would be (e.g. not wearing a seat belt). I don't see much of a problem in that department.
well can't help ya I guess, it's been explained many times driving is not a right and you agree to follow the rules and regulations for the privilege of driving.
I can wear what I want because it falls under freedom of speech, which includes NOT wearing something demanded by the government. My employer can have a dress code and if I choose to work for them I'm agreeing to follow their rules because I have the right to NOT work for them.
there's an exemption for people who have medical conditions with regards to masks right? how do you square that circle? I have a right to privacy, I don't have to answer any questions to law enforcement. I'm innocent until proven guilty, etc etc
it's about health right, preventable deaths? can we make a law if your b.m.i. is over a certain number you get arrested? how about smoking? how far should we go with this?
Is there anything other than anecdotal evidence, conjecture and opinions about masks?
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@HistoryBuff
do you think that your rights include the right to endanger other people's lives rather than take very minor precautions?
I'm not endangering other people's lives, unless you mean my driving, guess anyone who drives is technically endangering other people's lives.
Covid is much deadlier than the flu. It therefore requires a much stronger response.
yeah I know, flu requires no response, I mean I've said that, what's to disagree about?
Why do you feel the need to fight to protect your "right" to not wear basic protective equipment? I honestly cannot understand why you think that is more important than hundreds of thousands of lives.
because it's my right, my choice, my body, use whatever you like.
I am more important to me than hundreds of thousands of lives, I would not sacrifice myself to save hundreds of thousands of lives, just like I don't live a life of poverty to save thousands of lives in Africa or some shithole country. Do you?
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@ebuc
Regeneron
I sure hope it's compatible with the flu vaccine. The g4 h1n1 concerns me, been around since 2016 and we are just now hearing about it.
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@HistoryBuff
Why? why is your right to comfort more important than other people's right to live?
You have the right to stay home, you have the right to stay 6 feet or more from anyone, you have the right to purchase a hood with filters and supplemental air. I'm an individual with unalienable rights, stay away if you don't like what someone does. No one has cared any given flu season including h1n1, what exactly is the death count cutoff for the government to be authoritarian? Must be higher than flu deaths right? So that means if the covid deaths drop to flu levels or lower no one will need masks etc?
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@Death23
Don't think that would pass the innocent until proven guilty and other rights, it would totally work in every other country but not the u.s. you don't balance rights like that, just privileges
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@Greyparrot
If people consent to be closer than 6 feet it's a choice, staying home is also a choice.
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@HistoryBuff
It's not reasonable to force people and violate their rights, healthy until proven ill.
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@Death23
Negligent transmission of diseases has long been actionable. I see no reason why it should be any different with COVID-19.
because you can't prove it unless it's intentional, they either did or wanted to decriminalize not telling someone you have HIV before sex so.... The people who have intentionally coughed at someone or similar have been arrested because that's a threat even if they aren't infected.
if someone isn't infected how could they be arrested? right to privacy, HIPAA laws etc how would anyone know?
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@fauxlaw
I submit that the most powerful weapon is hate's opposite: love. It overwhelms with the the potential result that an enemy becomes a friend.
those motivated by hate seem to be the most vocal, perhaps that alters the overall perception. though I think people tend to act out more strongly due to hate/anger than love.
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@sadolite
police are under no legal obligation to protect anyone
Gonzales, the supreme court has ruled that police agencies are not obligated to provide protection of citizens. In other words, police are well within their rights to pick and choose when to intervene to protect the lives and property of others — even when a threat is apparent.
don't hold citizens to a higher standard.
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@HistoryBuff
so your point is that because people die from other things, we should allow a deadly disease to run rampant and do nothing to stop it?
sure, why not, we let obesity, tobacco and other preventable things run rampant and they kill far more people every year.
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@HistoryBuff
People are killed by accident with guns all the time.
all the time? really? wow, how do those deaths compare to accidental poisoning or accidental o.d. on medications?
it is easier to change the fundamental nature of the human species than to restrict access to deadly weapons, I would love to hear your plan for how to do that.
this has been discussed many times in many threads, ie. nuclear family, employment etc.
There are countless ways for minors and criminals to get guns if they are available to everyone.
there are countless ways for anyone to do anything.
restrictions are not working at keeping guns out of the hands of criminals.
correct so why have them then?
Letting people have incredibly dangerous weapons that would be used to kill people is silly
can I have moderately dangerous weapons that won't be used to kill people? what might that be btw. and you'd ban all hunting right? I mean how could you not advocate for that too.
IE knives are dangerous
they are so why shouldn't they be banned like in England?
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@HistoryBuff
According to the National Institutes of Health, obesity and overweight together are the second leading cause of preventable death in the United States, close behind tobacco use (3). An estimated 300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic
This is one of the worst tragedies in US history
um, no, not really.
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@HistoryBuff
Having the country that saturated in killing machines makes them very easy to get.
have you tried to get one? what does very easy mean? you have to have the will and desire to kill someone right? do you think people who have the will and desire could be a huge problem?
The problem is that if you have that right, then everyone does.
nope, minors and criminals don't have that right, certain other exclusions apply as well.
the fact that there are guns everywhere that are readily available to anyone who wants one makes keeping guns out of the hands of criminals completely impossible.
we should do away with limits and background checks then since it's completely impossible. if by anyone who wants means, they have to steal or otherwise obtain a gun illegally then I guess so.
less deadly, more deadly
lol like the princess bride? he's mostly dead?
so why not let people have rocket launchers, or nuclear weapons.
those would not be used for self defense generally, not to mention they are probably classified so as you say...
Do you see how silly your argument is?
remember when G.B. outlawed knives and home invasions spiked? this fantasy you have of putting the genie back in the bottle is just that, an impossible fantasy.
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@oromagi
hmm that's interesting, I would have thought after Rodney King those riots would have had an effect.
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@oromagi
that doesn't show that because of blm in 2014 that lowered those numbers, that apparently isn't available.
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@oromagi
safety from government violence is an inalienable right enjoyed by all regardless of skin color, recognized by the American people as inherent to every American citizen at birth.
thus the 2a
Before Black Lives Matter, US citizens were getting killed by police at increasing rate
proof? I believe the fbi stats don't support your claims
The present theory is that if government would only apply justice equally to all Americans and demonstrate far less favor towards the rich than the corrupt present paradigm, Americans will handle their own advancement and according to more various concerns than mere socioeconomic position.
100% agree
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@Nemiroff
So the hospitals being swamped by admissions and running low on icu beds is also because asymptomatic people are being tested?
post #21 isn't supported by your links, "swamped by admissions and running low on icu beds"
certainly you would agree not every covid patient needs to be in an icu right?
last a heard the survival rate of those put on a ventilator is pretty darn low but they aren't giving the death numbers like they did in the beginning, don't you find that strange?
remdesivir sounds promising if the U.S. government doesn't allow they to over charge U.S. insurers and citizens, read they are even working on a generic.
since you are familiar with hospitals, hasn't it been the procedure when someone who is sick comes in they are asked to wear a mask? but if they aren't sick they don't, especially during flu season. And even that is fairly recent. Sick people should be wearing masks. I haven't seen any evidence that asymptomatic people can transmit covid. In fact the only study I could find says they can't/don't.
ironically the CVS stopped allowing anyone who wanted a test to get one because they couldn't keep up, now they require you have some applicable symptom, which you could just lie about anyway.
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@fauxlaw
it really should be black lives matter, except in Chicago, Baltimore, D.C. etc
if you say all lives matter they lose their victim status and can't say wowas me.
all lives matter is incluse/equal/unifying, they don't want that.
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@zedvictor4
man that was a really good post, I'm going to try to remember your points and use them. Let's not judge people on their race, sex, or sexual orientation unless they can benefit from it.
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@HistoryBuff
the right to own lots of guns means there are tons of guns available to commit crimes.
false
it might not be your guns that commit the crimes.
so then you shouldn't have a problem of me owning them.
But the gun laws being lax and allowing everyone to have them means that it is virtually guaranteed that criminals can get them really easily.
lax laws and punishment can/could be addressed and has nothing to do with my rights.
not everyone is allowed to have them, your ignorance on this subject is staggering.
therefore your rights are killing people every single day.
is the same true for those that own knives, hammers etc?
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@HistoryBuff
Your "right" to own it is killing thousands upon thousands of people.
My right does not give anyone the right to break the law. My rights do not commit crimes.
it is.
Nut-uh
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@HistoryBuff
who organized the protests? who decides who will speak to the media?
BLM isn't a specific group with a leader.
it is a specific group, obviously
But it is a vast and diverse movement. It is not something that can be controlled and organized from a central source.
it is organized, their own website shows that, just because there are splinter groups claiming an association doesn't prove it's not organized.
anyone speaking out against blm are called uncle tom, house nigger etc, who would dare publicly denounce their violence?
the 3 black children killed in Chicago this past weekend is nothing new, more black people are killed on a given weekend in Chicago than are unjustified killed by police in a year.
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@HistoryBuff
You owning guns very much does have downsides. thousands upon thousands of people are dying so that you can keep that gun and likely never use it to protect yourself.
my owning something isn't anyone's business, nor does it affect anyone, thousands of people died so I have the right to protect myself. If it's likely it would never be used, what possible objection could you have that I have one?
The racism is systemic.
The racism is not systemic.
Any weapons is deadly when wielded by someone who has complete disdain for the people he is supposed to be protecting.
you mean by criminals, I agree criminals shouldn't commit crimes.
i'm guessing you have a point, but you didn't actually make it.
naw no point just pointing out your silly hyperbole.
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@HistoryBuff
in some cases that might happen. And in those cases the person will need to defend themselves. But those are, by far, the minority of cases. Compared to the harm guns cause the potential good is minuscule.
so you've decided that the potential to me and my loved ones is miniscule so I can't have a gun? do you wear a seatbelt even though an accident so bad that a seatbelt would save your life is so miniscule?
But there is also systemic racism, massive proliferation of deadly weapons
for all the posts and discussion of systemic racism, not one person is able to point to a racist system or give an example
can you list the non deadly weapons for us?
most anything used as a weapon has a potential to cause death right? but it's only a deadly weapon if it actually does cause a death, otherwise it's just a weapon?
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@HistoryBuff
BLM isn't a specific group with a leader.
then how did companies like amazon donate millions to them?
hateful people claiming to represent them give interviews and no one rebutts their claims of who they are, what they represent.....
looks pretty specific with a leadership to me.
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@ILikePie5
R.M. is correct imo, focus on grades and study habits, most colleges don't care if you do the work or not, it's not like high school where the teachers will get after you (generally speaking, always some exceptions) not that I would totally cut out all social activity, but I wouldn't obligate myself to anything that would require a lot of time or a strict, potentially conflicting schedule.
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@MisterChris
nope, they have alienated anyone on the fence with their violence and hardened those not sympathetic even more.
the inconsistency and down right contra actions to their supposed objectives has caused them to lose a great deal of support and turned people against them.
pretty good example are the blm supporters who had to pull guns to protect their home, or the reporter who supported blm until he was murdered by someone shooting into the crowd. the violence speaks pretty loudly as does the silence denouncing the violence.
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@Greyparrot
@Dr.Franklin
@HistoryBuff
If your choices are give a guy your stuff or go to prison for 20 years, that's a pretty simple choice.
sure, how can you tell they just want your stuff and not kill,rape, beat etc? I'd really love to know how to do that.
you would definitely need stiff penalties for owners of illegal guns in order to make it not worth it for people to buy them anyway and hide them.
certainly agree with that, which could be/have been done anytime in the last 50+ years? but hasn't?
Because if they feel like you do, that it is better to commit a crime than deal with an unlikely hypothetical scenario, then they will commit that crime.
do you favor punishing people, putting them in jail for victimless crimes?
the problem is 100% culture.
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@ILikePie5
hmm I want equality then, when it comes to dropping charges and light sentencing, especially for felons and repeat offenders. I wanna be a dindu!!!
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@Dr.Franklin
never said give guns to criminals or lunatics
that's his m.o. claims you say things that you never did, typical leftist, can't comprehend that criminals get guns which is obvious on the news every night. He's familiar with the multitude of links and posts I've made about homemade guns, blackmarket guns etc. But that is contra to his arguments so selectively ignored/forgotten. While the concept of unintended consequences seems pretty basic it sure seems a concept some just can't fathom, though I can't understand why. Probably need a psychiatry degree to figure that out.
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@Trent0405
@TheUnderdog
essentially the flat tax would be a use tax on purchases and services. "luxury" items would be taxed higher. some states tax prepared food, like at restaurants higher than their regular sales tax. I like the idea of you get taxed on what you use/buy. This helps get rid of the tax shelters and b.s. like keeping money in the Cayman islands. I think it's called "the fair" tax but I can't remember for certain.
the capital gains tax could then be set to zero since capital gains would be used to purchase stuff, which would be taxed. zero capital gains encourages investing which is a good thing. taking investment losses reduces your capital gain tax currently, so it's a game, game of avoiding taxes. The rich people pay professional players to avoid taxes, it's always been that way and will always be if changes aren't made. But since the rich are in control it's not likely it will ever change.
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@zedvictor4
Race is based upon perceivable difference, and also also upon regional separation and conditioned data.
so then the term "african american" shouldn't be used right? there's people with very dark skin from many other countries, hemispheres other than africa. How many dark skin people are NOT descendants of american slave owners? Weren't the slaves sold by other africans? do those countries owe reparations?
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@zedvictor4
evolved? nope, intolerance to anything offensive or could be offensive has killed humor. I can see why you'd think that's evolution.
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