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Theweakeredge

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@thett3
Um... no - because - again - the graph has A) no data to support it, and B) has no axises, so you could blather on about whatever you wanted that graph to be - and I would have no idea-  cause you know - no axises. 
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@thett3
Yup - I'm not gonna reply in-depth, I don't see the need to - your position has continuously been disingenuous - you say you have data to support your claims but the one you've posted about trans people is not only not representative (uhuh, less than 2000 for over 1.4 million in a different country), you have no actual data to support it. Again, you fail to actually READ the entirety of my argument, less than 400 for a sample size IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ENTIRE POPULATION. The study's problem is that it doesn't have the data to support it's claims as a generalization.  

You claim that it the number of teens have "quadrupled", yet where's your data for that? Do you have anything that isn't so blatantly wrong? Are you going to ignore BOTH of my source? Because one talking about de-transition survey's transgender people directly, even if your other rebuttal wasn't already bullshit... because you do realize that THE CASE OF DE-TRANSITIONS are EXTREMELY RARE, that is the point of the study you say "isn't relevant". And it directly contradicts the quote you tried to pass off as applying to the facts. 

Again, you are either extremely bad at reading studies, or being dishonest. 
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@TheUnderdog
*Sigh* The internet, without it I would doubtlessly be much more narrowed in my politics. I think the Internet is truly one of the greatest tools humans have invented in a while. 

What do you think of privatizing the police?
I think it would make the issues we already have, worse. 
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@coal
Generally because at that age, being coerced is really easy not to mention the idea of 14 year old's driving, this time much more due to its legality. If there was a much more rigorous licensing requirement, perhaps. The one thing I can agree with is the medical decisions, except I for when in regards that they should also have the go ahead from a doctor or other health professional. I suppose a lot of this is circumstantial, but I also think that-in general-just like drinking it should be regulated to 21 and older because of how the frontal cortex forms - that is to say - wackily until 21. 
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@Conway
I prefer no church, and I raise raised baptists - they are sometimes less homophobic than other churches? Slightly. 
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@thett3
the light blue indicates "male children", and that has reached nearly 1800, in contrast, "female children" are marked in a tannish color and reach 1600. Clearly the unrepresentative graph doesn't agree with your conclusions. Also... this isn't a study... this is an anecdotal example as far as I can read - if you can find some other source that backs up your data then I'll accept the data. However.. what evidence has lead you to believing that the UK has better measurements regarding the trans people in the US than the US? Hm? I'm curious to know - furthermore - you've completely dropped the point that there are nearly as many old people who are transgender, like, you've just brushed that aside - even though you asked for it. 

Also - no - I am not going to accept that claim you've presented until you have some actual data that can support it. 
"Puberty is a highly important time for people coming to an understanding of their gender identity. A significant fraction of individuals who are gender nonconforming in childhood may end up identifying as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or another sexual minority rather than as transgender late adolescents and adults. This is generally referred to as desistance rather than detransition. Detransition, or retransition, is generally only used to describe someone who has transitioned socially or medically into a different gender role. An example of this is someone who was assigned female, lived socially as male for many years, and then returned to living as a woman. These types of cases tend to be very rare, and are even rarer in individuals who have accessed any medical or surgical care to affirm their gender. Language is important. Many activists and allies encourage the use of retransition rather than detransition to recognize that gender is a journey that may not necessarily go in a straight line. The term detransition is often used by individuals who want to restrict access to gender affirming care out of concern that it could lead to regret.

While regret is possible, it is rare. Lack of access to affirming care has been shown to have more concrete risks.Another study looked at surgeons who offered gender affirming procedures. Looking at 46 surgeons who had worked with 22,725 patients, there were only 62 documented cases of regret (0.27%)."
Especially not whenever the data so diametrically opposes that claim

” Eight percent (8%) ofrespondents reported having de-transitioned atsome point. Most of those who de-transitioneddid so only temporarily: 62% of those who hadde-transitioned reported that they were currentlyliving full time in a gender different than thegender they were thought to be at birth....Respondents who had de-transitioned cited arange of reasons, though only 5% of those whohad de-transitioned reported that they had doneso because they realized that gender transitionwas not for them, representing 0.4% of the overallsample.42 The most common reason cited forde-transitioning was pressure from a parent(36%). Twenty-six percent (26%) reported thatthey de-transitioned due to pressure from otherfamily members, and 18% reported that they detransitioned because of pressure from their spouseor partner." (pg 115)
All of it, opposes that claim.


Regarding the study - you are misrepresneting it - it is the suicidation of halocaust surviors AND WWII veterans - please do not misrepresent your own data like that - furthermore - it IS CERTAINLY not representative. Did you know that your study only measures 374 halocaust surivors? 
"Of 921 eligible patients, 374 were Holocaust survivors; 135 (14.6%) had attempted suicide in the month before admission"
Do you know how many lived in Iseral alone? Hmm? Would you like to know?
"At the end of 2008, there were some 233,700 Holocaust survivors in Israel. The number ofsurvivors is decreasing and the projection for 2015 is 143,900 survivors and for 2025,approximately 46,900 survivors."
So a little less than 50,000? By 300 hundred? Sure, that's representative. I don't know if your reading much into your own studies, but it seems to me that you have a habbit of misquoting and taking them at face value instead of actually reading into it. Please take your time and do actual research

Oh my god - no - you are quite literally ignoring everything I've said, cutting out swawthes of context, and not overall repeating yourself. The reason trangender people do that is to feel that their SEX matches what is percieved of their GENDER - because guess what? People judge them BASED ON THAT! Gender dysphoria is a reaction to people, it is not, however, a status that transgender people have neccessarily. I do not think you are arguing in good faith, if you are, you are quite.. well ignorant. At least very bad at reading studies. 
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RMM
Im not sure honestly - I think it would depend on how financially in need that person is in. presuming I have the ability to even steal anything that is. 
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@fauxlaw
Um... you can not believe in something and get how it works - furthermore again - knowing all of the data in a subject does not mean you are aware of the CORRECT INTERPRETATION, you should know that, that is literally your things in debates. 
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@thett3
What the actual hell man? This data CONTRADICTS YOUR ARGUMENT - the highest rate in this graph are adolescent boys - or should we say girls, and yes we should - because that graph identifying them by sex isn't very consistent with an epistemological position of expression. Furthermore, we've been talkin' about America - that's quite explicitly what my numbers have been referring to - that's what the previous study you presented was about, why the sudden shift to UK graphs? Also can you even source that graph? Because right now it has no data to actually support it. And... yes! Because that's exactly what it is! It's not just "more opened minds" i guess you could say-  now not as many people want to find and kill people for being trans! Cause ya know hate crimes! 

General Risk Factors
Transgender people have many of the same risk factors for suicidality as found in the U.S. general population, such as depression, substance use, and housing instability. Similar to these trends in the U.S. general population, we found an elevated prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts among USTS respondents who:
  • Experienced serious psychological distress and reported heavy alcohol or illicit drug use (excluding marijuana);
  • Reported poor general health compared to those who reported excellent health (19.9% versus 3.6% past-year suicide attempts);
  • Reported having a disability, experienced homelessness in the past year, or had ever been arrested for any reason.
Unique Risk Factors
In addition to general risk factors, transgender people have additional risk factors, such as experiences of discrimination, stigma, family rejection, and lack of access to gender-affirming health care. Findings regarding these unique factors include the following:
  • Experiencing discrimination or mistreatment in education, employment, housing, health care, in places of public accommodations, or from law enforcement is associated with a higher prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts. For example, the prevalence of past-year suicide attempts by those who reported that they had been denied equal treatment in the past year because they are transgender was more than double that of those who had not experienced such treatment (13.4% compared to 6.3%).
  • Those who reported that their spouses, partners, or children rejected them because they are transgender reported a higher prevalence of lifetime and past-year suicide attempts. Those
    who reported rejection by their family of origin, for example, reported twice the prevalence of past-year suicide attempts compared to those who had not experienced such rejection (10.5%compared to 5.1%).
  • Respondents who had been rejected by their religious communities or had undergone conversion therapy were more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts. For instance, 13.1 percent of those who had experienced religious rejection in the past year had attempted suicide in the past year; by contrast, 6.3 percent of respondents who had experienced religious acceptance in the past year attempted suicide in the past year.
  • Experiences of violence, including intimate partner violence (IPV) are associated with higher prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts. Over 30 percent of those who were physically attacked in a place of public accommodation reported attempting suicide in the past year, which is over four times the prevalence among respondents who were not similarly attacked.
  • Those who had “de-transitioned” at some point, meaning having gone back to living according to their sex assigned at birth, were significantly more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts, both past-year and lifetime, than those who had never “de-transitioned.” Nearly 12 percent of those who “de-transitioned” attempted suicide in the past year compared to 6.7 percent of those who have not “de-transitioned.”
  • People who are not viewed by others as transgender and those who do not disclose to others that they are transgender reported a lower prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts. For instance, 6.3 percent of those who reported that others can never tell they are transgender attempted suicide in the past year compared to 12.2 percent of those who reported that others can always tell they are transgender.
  • The cumulative effect of minority stress is associated with a higher prevalence of suicidality. For instance, 97.7 percent of those who had experienced four discriminatory or violence experiences in the past year (being fired or forced to resign from a job, eviction, experiencing homelessness, and physical attack) reported seriously thinking about suicide in the past year and 51.2 percent made a suicide attempt in the past year.
We also found that there are some factors that are associated with lower risk of suicide thoughts and attempts for USTS respondents:
  • Respondents with supportive families reported lower prevalence of past-year and lifetime suicide thoughts and attempts.
  • Those who wanted, and subsequently received, hormone therapy and/or surgical care had a substantially lower prevalence of past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who wanted hormone therapy and surgical care and did not receive them.
  • A lower proportion of respondents who lived in a state with a gender identity nondiscrimination statute reported past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who lived in states without such a statute.

First of all, unless you had a time machine and methodological survey, you really couldn't have ANY data to support that claim - you could try to compare the discrimination to today's other minorities, but the fact of the matter is that transgender people are discriminated more than ANY OTHER MINORITY TODAY - furthermore - yeah whenever we're talking about denying a neurological expression, of course, discrimination does more harm! Like - its not just "individual" discrimination either - did you know that there is a thing called the "trans-panic defence"? Where people who assault transgender people can get off scot-free using the legal defence that they panicked because the person was trans? We've barely started to push to get rid of this in 2019?? Yeah, you can bet that would exasperate the problem

You are not reading a single thing - GENDER and SEX are two different things - people go through transitioning to feel comfortable with their sex, to make their sex match their gender-  which I ALREADY EXPLAINED:
 the intrinsic discomfort and experiential pain of having your sex not match your gender. 
At this point I don't think you are actually honestly representing my positions. What does the sky have to do with anything? Why are you using that specific example - its not any one individual experience ITS A WAY OF EXPERIENCING THINGS, just like gay people, I've explained it all to you - you repeating "I don't get it" when you've been dishonest in the same post really doesn't give me much hope that you actually are trying to understand. 

Living with an annual income below the living wage. 
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@thett3
Um... no -because the only DATA you've given has supported MY ARGUMENT, what data do you have to support that claim? Because again, this happened to gay people, this happened to asexual people, this happens to literally every sexual or gendered minority - where people deny their existence because they're coming out more now - and again - as I already explained, girls tend to pass more, and are therefore much more comfortable with coming out. Also - aren't you the one who asked for all the adults coming out as trans? Because that's what I gave you - I literally gave you exactly what you asked for and now you're shifting the goalpost with regards to the point of bringing them up. 

Um - its pretty straightforward - gender is a way that your brain perceives and interprets data - a fundamental set in fact. You experience being straight or gay, kising other guys as a guy doesn't necessarily mean your straight, sexual intercourse can't be what sexuality is, because sexuality in this regard is intrinsically referring to the way you experience things. The difference is that male-ness and female-ness are already abstract enough, so the only people who can really identify which is the way they perceive things is themself, same way as gay people only being able to identify their feelings - the mere fact that its more complicated doesn't mean its not valid.

Um... no? Because people who have opposing gender and sex sometimes like to have their sex match more closely to their gender, so they have hormones and transitioning... because sex and gender are different - and that contrast is what literally makes up gender dysphoria, as I already explained. 

As for the last thing - whenever that system perpetuates poverty through ideology, heck yeah its indicative of the system. 
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Post to get a theme song, closest matching fictional character and general (exaggerated) overview.
RMM
defend against your words with SUPERIOR MORALITY AND LOGIC.
I mean you said it not me. lol, in all seriousness this was interesting, pretty much what I expected in terms of characterization (though somehow I didn't see the character comin' himself), it does confirm some thoughts I had.
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@thett3
"Some experts believe rising awareness of transgender issues has led increasing numbers of transgender teens to come out, or to experiment with gender identification.
“With growing trans visibility in the United States, some youth might find it safer to come out and talk about gender exploration,” Rider said.
But differences in estimates may also reflect differences in how gender identity questions are phrased, Rider said."
But also... I have no access to the study - even if I were to grant that the methodology is good (which I can't confirm given only access to a news story and vague explanations) - it literally explains in your source how the conclusion you come to is definitely not supported by the data. And again, this is assuming your study is valid. As for the disproportionate level of mental health emergencies that trans people go through? Well no duh - these people are literally oppressed on a daily basis, told that their identity doesn't exist, and that their existence is a "mental illness", yeah, no freaken' duh they have higher rates of suicide.,

As for the age of majority thing... uh - you wouldn't be able to be drafted or join active military lines until you were 21, and you'd only be able to join for training or non-combat roles until you turned 21, moving up the age for official driver's license would do a lot to mitigate things - and I suppose you would also have to change the "fine" system with policing teenagers driving, instead of making them go to prison for driving illegally, or being fined, make 'em go to community service, it would do a heck lot more to hep them then sending them to juive or fining them money they can't afford. 

Um... I already explained that actually... a while back - gender is - quoting myself here:

the basics are that gender identity is a neurological connection between how you perceives things and your experience (how data is input, and how you interpret that data as a human) -
And from the post after that, elaborating on that:
 what defines or distinguishes gender is your experience, unless you have a specific way of measuring neurologic connections with regard to interpreting data, it is literally the only way you can distinguish, so you know how you do that? You just ask the individual, its the same thing as being straight or gay.
You quite literally quote me explaining gender for you...and then say I haven't defined gender, I'm sorry did you miss it or are you being disingenuous here? Furthermore, it is no more than the right anti-depressant meds are - and no.. you don't just "ask for hormone blockers" you go through literal years of self-expression and discussion with licensed therapists, and only after they cleared it are you allowed puberty blockers... your ignorance is something that is again understandable, but if you want to talk or make actual judgments, as you have, then you need to do more research than just confirming your biases. 

Um... because despite the fact that we aren't in repression - there are still millions in poverty, regardless, its about the principle of the matter - you shouldn't have to pay for things you need to live. "If it ain't broken don't fix it" is certainly a nice expression, it does delay progress though. 

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@thett3
Um.. yeah it is? It happened with driving a lot - but furthermore - the purpose of school, at least it shouldn't be, to babysit kids - if that was the case half the people who graduate wouldn't be graduating, it's about providing foundational (and for some people specific) education for the adult world in general, though more specifically to increase the density of educated people in the US. So, I would just say it's a case-by-case basis, same as it is now. 

Um... because older people tend to hang out with older people... who also tend to be more judgemental, so of course it makes sense that that demographic would lag behind - though - it actually isn't by much - where 0.7% of adults identify as transgender between the ages of 18-24, 05% of people over the age of 65% identity as trans - like - you do realize that this is the exact argument had against gay people right? The comparison is blinding with how obvious it is. 

And this is a big question that a lot of cis people have, and the answer is simple, what defines or distinguishes gender is your experience, unless you have a specific way of measuring neurologic connections with regard to interpreting data, it is literally the only way you can distinguish, so you know how you do that? You just ask the individual, its the same thing as being straight or gay. Though the confusion is understandable you being an admitted bigot isn't - that's just being a dick.

Um... you do realize that you need a job to pay for.... anything? Right? Like, do you think that if these workers COULD get a better job they wouldn't? Like what the hell? People HAVE to pay for rent, for food, for water, for electricity, all of the above - of course they agree - a lot of times its the only work they can find!
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@fauxlaw
Well no - that's not what you said, you said that god says things because their good-  in that case we shouldn't need god to tell us what is good, if there is good that god is getting from, we can just use that same good and skip out the middle man - because how do we know that god (assuming he exists for a moment) interprets "good" correctly? Again, being all-knowing does not mean you can interpret things perfectly.. 
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@thett3
The age of majority should be 21.... that's all. Pretty easy it is. 

Furthermore... no you see-  trans women tend to be able to pass better, so they tend to come out more - because ya know - a decade ago gay people coldn't even get married  - you would be ostracized from all of your friends, family, work, etc- if you came out as trans - nowadays, that happens much less- hince more trans people in the public eye. Like dude, you can make assertions about gender identity, but you'd be wrong - like no - its not a "mental illness" - having a different gender identity than what you were assigned at birth is a neurological, psychological, and concrete scientific possibility. You can see my debate with Athias on it if you'd like to see my full proofs (though I would add more if I had more room on that debate) - the basics are that gender identity is a neurological connection between how you perceives things and your experience (how data is input, and how you interpret that data as a human) - gender affirming care is certainly no "horrible" - to call a trans identity a "mental illness" is transphobic btw - like - almost definitionally so. 

Um.... yes - like - almost systematically: let's talk about capitalism as a system - it's where you have workers sell their labour to a higher board, a company, corporation, etc, and that company uses that labour, service, etc, to create profit - to advertise - all of the above-  but even as their product increases their profit annually - the workers get metaphorically shafted with the exact same wages - and in some instances - this happens with people who don't make nearly enough money to live. 
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@thett3
eh - 25 is over-generalized, but regardless, my point was that its core functions are done - technically speaking, the epigenetics of your brain are always developing, I'm talking about the stability of your frontal cortex, and that happens at 21. 

Also, dude, having a transgender identity and having gender dysphoria are not necessarily the same thing - furthermore - yes - I am extremely aware: its the intrinsic discomfort and experiential pain of having your sex not match your gender. 

Profit motive perpeautates poverty, and it has for hundreds of other economics systems - I want an integrated economics system, where you have a foundation of capitalism, but you have equity of opportunity to the extreme, you don't pay for utilities, and the profit made by companies is given back to the poor in occurrence with the increase in profit. 
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@thett3
Gender-affirming care
So you know how transgender people get hormone therapy or even treatment in general? Yeah that


free-utilities
Because fundamentally speaking, you shouldn't have to pay for stuff you need to live - I believe that to be a right, to live, not a privilege. 
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@thett3
Its mostly because you frontal cortex isn't finished developing - a lot of traumatic events can still permanently affect your brain, as well as alcohol and all of that - that's the main argument. Its the same reason why you shouldn't be able to drink till' your 21. 
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@fauxlaw
Well - what I meant is that there isn't anything unique about god's commands - if he just says what is good, then there should absolutely be debate about whether what god commands is good - after all - even granting that a god exists and that that god is all-knowing, that certainly doesn't make them all-interpreting. 
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@fauxlaw
So then god merely says what is good- there isn't anything particularly special about his commands then, he just says what he believes to be good - which can be wrong. 
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Yesterday, politics. Today, science
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@fauxlaw
masks have always been a matter of science...we've had this discussion a lot
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@fauxlaw
But when he does command stuff (cause he does like - not eat the fruit, and whatever else) - is it good because he say so, or goes god say it because its good?
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@Double_R
Option one then
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The Destruction of Small Business
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@coal
I'm still lookin' through the evidence on that one chief - I think that the evidence is extremely correlative instead of casual regarding the effectiveness of lock-downs - I definitely need to see some more evidence regarding the ineffectiveness of the lockdowns. Now - I am not saying that they were effective, I am merely saying that I need more evidence before I am convinced to the contrary. 

Furthermore, again, regardless of the economic fallbacks - the moral thing is the moral thing - regardless - if you wanna talk about the "riots" which were caused by the BLM protests - we can talk about the majority peaceful protests, or we can talk about the police escalation that caused more harm. That is - turned a peaceful protest into a riot - instead of de-escalating riots - ya know - which is their job. 

So if we wanna talk about what's caused the market crash, let's talk about the person who let it get to the point of lock-down - that is Donald J. Trump with Covid, ya know, in contrast to Obama with Ebola.

Remember the 11 cases of Ebola? Compared to the what...more than 30 million cases of Covid?
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Votes Cast
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@coal
Also been there, in fact, I have a home-away-from-home there. A loft and everything, lol
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Taxes, and the case of the helpful billionare
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@FLRW
@fauxlaw
yeah - when it comes to studies and resarch, I have no doubt in my mind that FLRW has both of us beat Fauxlaw, I just happen to agree more with FLRW's interpretations of 'em than I do yours Fauxlaw, and to be clear, we don't agree on everything - or even most things (go see religion is a mental illness debate to see us oppose there), but here I think FLRW and I can agree on what's said here  - a response to what would be considered painful is being misinterpreted as pain by your interpretation of your study, in reality, there is no nuerulogic evidence to support that claim, and evidence against it-  during gestation in general - like - not from 13 - 24 weeks, GESTATION.
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@Username
Spiderman into the Spiderverse, Get out, It was pretty good (though the first part was better - and overall I think I enjoyed the books a tad more), and i really liked Spider-Man Homecoming
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Consent
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@Sum1hugme
Your entire problem is that I don't agree with YOUR theories of ethics, guess what bud - that's how ethics work - they are necessarily relative and dependent on the situation, if you think that you CAN EVER have a black and white moral system then you are, as I said, ignorant or dishonest
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@Sum1hugme
 First, you touch upon the need to quantify well-being in making moral judgements. The very fact that this isn't actually possible to do accurately in the real world, since the consequences of a given action can rarely be accurately quantified, already makes this an impractical standard. The vast majority of moral judgements will be made on incomplete information. This limitation means that in order to discuss the philosophical assumptions of your theory, we have to account for the otherwise unknowable variables by means of thought experiments. These aren't always going to be probable or realistic in the literal sense, but they bring the core concepts into light. It's not every day that a trolley goes haywire on a track towards some people, yet that's a common thought experiment in moral philosophy.
False in total - whenever someone is kicked, you know that that typically hurts-  the mere fact that you cannot precisely measure something in a way you prefer does not mean that it cannot be measured. For example, we cannot precisely measure neurology, but we can come to conclusions regarding the preponderance of the evidence. Your argument is the same that moral objectivists make - but the fact is that ethics are necessarily subjective - well-being is generalized, but it is in no way vague. 

Um... every moral interaction relies on unknown information, the difference is that I admit it - we are talking about human psyche and moral values here-  if you are to insist that you know everything or that you have all the info in ANY moral conundrum, then you are ignorant or dishonest. The difference is that human well-being is necessarily something that you are obligated to value, that's it, it's also something that almost every OTHER standard works on - including Kant's work bud. Yes, we account for the unknowable, but that will NEVER be a consistent moral framework. If you are trying to account for every unknowable then you are ethicing wrong, period.

  Secondly, the idea of well-being as the standard of moral good, means that all moral decisions are completely context-dependent. This makes all morality both relative to the situation, and determined by the arbitrary whims of the moral actor.
On the first part - yes! Completely relative - congratulations! You've discovered it! I'm a moral relativist. Second part, nope, its completely dependent on what the best outcome of moral good is in that situation - the mnoral actor themselves has nothing to do with it, aside from what they rule as the most moral good - and... if you're tryna to say that the fact that a moral actor can be wrong makes it invalid, you have never actually used normative ethics in reality. Finally.... no - the justification is that we value neccessarily, the bit that makes us obligated to use it as it as a standard is that unless you value other's well-being, they have no reason to value yours - more misrepresentation. on your part/ 
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@Sum1hugme
1a  If one ought to act morally, then one is obligated to act morally by definition. That means that if you define moral action as actions that bring about well-being, then any action that is in one's power to bring about well-being is morally obligatory. Therefore, your proposed third option is incoherent. You're literally saying, one is obligated to do what is good, but not obligated to do what is good, by misusing the language.

1b  Further, by virtue of your claim of the obligation imposed by the second premise, your first premise is rendered null. Being morally obligated to prevent negative well-being is equal to being morally obligated to cause positive well-being (not doing what is bad=doing what is good), if there is a forced choice between doing and not doing, like in the original example.

  Therefore, either your argument is incoherent, or it is exactly what I said.

  If one is morally obligated to bring about well-being, then it only follows that it should be the most well-being possible, whatever the context. 

  In the original example, you claimed that the doctor is morally prohibited from harvesting the organs from the one, for the sake of the well being of the five. But because you only have enough time to do one or the other, these are the only two options: to harvest the healthy organs, or don't harvest the healthy organs. Both options represent a moral choice. You claim that one is morally prohibited from harvesting the organs on the grounds that it would produce negative well being for the healthy man. But that choice will result, with certainty, in the suffering and deaths of the five dying people, who you, as their surgeon, are responsible for. This example clearly shows that well-being is not sufficient as a standard of morality.

  To avoid this problem, you claimed that numbers don't matter.

 So, Let me ask you a different question.

  Suppose a man has planted a nuclear bomb in a city of a million people. You know for certainty that he will tell you where it is in time to stop it only if you torture the information out of him. If you do not torture him, then a million people will certainly die.

Are you:

A) Morally obligated to torture the man
B) Morally permitted, but not obligated, to torture the man
C) Morally prohibited from torturing the man

…?

  At what point do numbers start to matter?
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1a - again - that is your misunderstanding of my language, but ethical people do talk in pragmatics a lot - you can continue to mix up my use of the words. But that would be like insisting that, given the situation that I am sitting on what you would call a desk, and I say, "I am sitting on a table", and you went "No, no you aren't of course you aren't!" and then I went, "Well, tables do this or that, and desks do that or this" - essentially my definitions of a table and a desk are different from yours, so insisting that I am "misusing language" is insisting that your definition is by default correct, and you didn't do nearly enough framework to establish that. 

1b Again no - there is a difference between taking food from starving people and not giving them any - you can continue to make things inordinately black and white, but you'd be mistake ethically speaking.

The last example is drastically different, you don't have all the facts of the operation - and the "bomb thing" is completely different situation - just because well-being doesn't lead to black-and-white situations does not make it "not valid standard for morals", furthermore -you changed quite a lot of that scenario, but regarldess, the fact that you don't like the outcome doesn't make it a bad standard, just that you don't understand nuance. 

Again, refraining from something and doing something morally wrong are two different things - according to practicality - there are different situations with different answers. accept that not everything is black and white, or get out of ethics. 
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Consent
this statement ignores basic ethics. That is, that an ought is a moral obligation that one has the ability to actually do:

"Ought implies can, in ethics, the principle according to which an agent has a moral obligation to perform a certain action only if it is possible for him or her to perform it. (https://www.britannica.com/topic/ought-implies-can)"

"As an auxiliary verb expressing duty or moral obligation (the main modern use, attested from late 12c.), it represents the past subjunctive.(https://www.etymonline.com/word/ought)"

eh - not necessarily - in normative ethics perhaps, but whenever we're discussing pragmatics, especially ought used causally it means different things. If you were confused by my usage just ask  - I meant ought in the framework of what you should do - in regard to a position that you can do, do the opposite of, and not do - I will admit it is a tad unintuitive, but it's quite a popular interpretation in pragmatic ethics. Again, notice your sources - neither of which are professionally philosophic - let's check out a real paper shall we?

Ethics can be seen as the foundation of wonder and analytic thought. First, existentialists accept wonder and deemphasize analysis, though phenomenologists tend to be more open to wonder and analytic thinking. Logical positivists and linguistic analysts see wonder as reducible to logic. Existentialists and phenomenologists are comfortable with ethics associated with wonder and analysis. Positivists and analysts deny ethics as an irreducible field of study. Ethicists would look at wonder to see if people need drugs in order to achieve states of euphoria or peace. Additionally, ethicists would take the same view about computers and analytic method.
What I'm trying to get you to see is that there is a situation behind every hypothetical, a law that must be practically applicable in order to every actually measure ethics. For example, if we were to rule as the bible does, that every moral fault is the same, morally speaking, is absurd on it's face - as every measure we can value morals in is affects on others - that certainly isn't very logical. Let me ask you a question, is every moment you aren't donating to a child whose starving an example of moral ineptitude? I would say that you ought to help starving children - some people solve this moral conundrum by saying you just don't "ought" to help starving people. To me that presents a clear moral violation, it just happens to be that there are things that you should do, but you don't have an obligation because of practicality-  even if your definition hints at that - and that's what I'm referring to.

In summary, yes, most ethics people use the word ought and obligation interchangeably, I don't and i have a damned good reason for not. 
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Taxes, and the case of the helpful billionare
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@fauxlaw
Um... your study made a mistake? Studies can be posted later and still be wrong? Regardless of that - your study doesn't agree with your conclusion - you're assuming it does based on what you interpret to be a researched conclusion - no - the study specifically says its not pain "as adults can feel it" - to say that its "pain" is not a researched conclusion. However, again - this is asusming that the study is right... which isn't always the case
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The Destruction of Small Business
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@Vader
Um.. .do you have some sort of study that confirms that assertion? I mean sure it could happen, but does it happen often enough to be a problem?
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@fauxlaw
A fetus cannot feel pain, they are ony reacting to stimuli.  A heel prick from a needle used for amniocentesis, for example, can result in the fetus recoiling, much as an adult would to a painful pinprick.
Studies have shown, however, that the recoil is more of a reflex controlled by the “lower brain” (which is involved with more base functions like breathing than with consciousness) or the spinal cord and does not necessarily reflect an experience of pain. In fact, the same response can be seen in anencephalic infants, who are born missing large parts of the brain. As the JAMA review explains: “[F]lexion withdrawal from tactile stimuli is a noncortical spinal reflex exhibited by infants with anencephaly and by individuals in a persistent vegetative state who lack cortical function.”
Put another way, the experience of pain is different from what is known as nociception. Nociception refers to the body’s ability to perceive harm — this can be achieved below the level of consciousness, as with reflexes. A paper published in 2001 in the journal Bioethics explains the difference: “[W]hile nociception is neural activity, pain is an unpleasant feeling. It follows that while pain requires some level of consciousness, nociception does not.”
This is what he said for himself, that is what I related
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@fauxlaw
Again - FLRW's and mines points are about GESTATION IN GENERAL - as in you are incorrect - FLRW's post was a direct rebuttal to your claim regarding fetus's between 24-30 weeks ability to feel pain - that was what that response is in reply to, directly. 
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@Vader
Um... have you considered that perhaps the economic collapse due to the pandemic that occurred? So.. you know - just a tad of false equivocation. Furthermore - um - you also are presenting the implicit argument that people earning minimum wage (current) is "okay" or at the very least, worth what it takes to upkeep our economy - and even if I do accept your argument that it will "destroy small business" - it's assuming that violating people's ability to not be in poverty is worth the economic sustainability.... and that's just not true. 

An ethical dilemma is precisely that - ethical - it doesn't particularly matter that this will occur-  all it means is that now we have a new problem that we need to counter. Simple.
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@ebuc
I've been very clear - the things you said I was "wrong" about-  how about - also the things you said I was "right about - substantiate every active claim you made
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@ebuc
If it were anyone else'ss responses, sure you would be right. But its yours - you asked me stuff like: what is the answer to everything?" I have literally no idea what you mean - so that kinda stuff is just opinions that aren't making a particular claim. So yeah - that's not something that can be "wrong" in the framework we're discussing. Furthermore, you've failed to actually substantiate what I was "wrong" about. If you can't do that then I'm going to block you - I've had enough of your dishonesty for one day.
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Help me around?
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@Kamikaze
No problemo
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@ebuc
Um... no - because this is about me - any answer is how "I see it - that's not something that can be wrong- nor can it be wrong without substantiation. You've insisted me to be misrepresenting you in the questions, ever considered that just don't know what you're referring to? Regardless - I was "wrong" according to you. So here you go - here's my chance to you - substantiate your claim or stop. There you go - much more charitable. 
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Help me around?
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@Kamikaze
Scroll to the bottom of the page and click: "Code of Conduct" on the bottom black bar. 
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@bmdrocks21
Um.. no? I put a general position, then I elaborated on that position - that's like if you took my anti-theist position and said I hated theist, but then I clarified that it's an ethical distaste for the existence of god - it's certainly not a "gross-misrepresentation" it's literally just elaboration. Um... yes - yes you can prove that - because the people who teach at police academies have reports regarding how many hours future-police take of militarization training - however - as most of this training is fairly... shallow, a lot of it is informal instruction. Becase we can go back and ask police officers about their instruction... it is absolutely something you can prove. 
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@ebuc
I think we talked about this already Ebuc, in fact there was a whole other forum about my anger-stuff - and even while trying to be pedantic - you still insist on being dishonest. The entire point of being pedantic is to hide dishonesty... so my previous thing stands. Stop or block. 
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@fauxlaw
Um FLRW was talking about gestation in general - the "12-24" months wasn't the main point of that - it was that the "sensation/and/or/stimuli to pain" doesn't necessarily mean they can feel pain. That was the point of FLRW's post...
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@fauxlaw
"“Nevertheless, we no longer view fetal pain (as a core, immediate, sensation) in a gestational window of 12–24 weeks as impossible based on the neuroscience.”
The review points out that a fetus may not experience pain in the same way as an adult, but does indeed experience pain as a real sensation, and that this pain experience has moral implications."

In other words, they are assuming that the fetus feels pain... by redefining pain in order to fit with the sensations that they may feel 

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@fauxlaw
Again - a difference between having consciousness and then becoming unconscious, and just plain out not having consiousness. There is a fundamental difference bud. 
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@PGA2.0
I won't respond if you do - just to be clear

Please get this through your head - the only thing that atheists have in common is that they don't believe in gods. That's literally it. It would be like trying to characterize all people who don't own a dog as anything aside from people who don't own dogs. 
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BREAKING NEWS: I own the US.
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@Bones
Consider the following syllogism about how Italian explorer Christopher Columbus came into possession of America. 

p1. Columbus landed on American soil for the first time in 1942, which was already inhabited by indigenous people. 
p2. Columbus took possession of America, regardless of the inhabitants. 
c1. Thus the presence of inhabitants do not prohibit one from possessing land. 

Using this conclusion. 

p1. I travel to America right now. 
p2. The presence of inhabitants do not prohibit one from possessing land
c1. I possess America

Let's break this down:
p1. Columbus landed on American soil for the first time in 1942, which was already inhabited by indigenous people. 
Are you referring to central America or North America? Because Columbus never touched what we consider "the USA" today. He landed in current-day Central America. 


p2. Columbus took possession of America, regardless of the inhabitants. 
No... he claimed that it was his.. .question, if you went to Mexico, put a flag down, then claimed that it was yours, would that make it yours?


c1. Thus the presence of inhabitants do not prohibit one from possessing land. 
Not necessarily no - the conclusion is a non-sequitur - it is possible that these particular people's presence doesn't inhibit possessing land, not in general, its possible that Columbus killed the people there? The conclusion just doesn't follow. 

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Proving god is a lie
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@Tarik
As you have done none of what I suggested, I don't feel its helpful to continue - its clear to me that your semantical dishonest framework, or at the very least, extremely ignorant. I find the latter extremely unlikely. 
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@Tarik
Um... you: A) Shifted the goalpost, B) Claimed I was doing that after I called you out, C) failed to substantiate your claim (even now), D) Failed to actually prove that there is a morally consistent god, and finally: you've failed to actually prove logically why implication I drew was illogical. Please substantiate that, cause you've failed to do so far. 
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