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@zedvictor4
Ok.So,Bro,Or wife.Hypothetically,What would Allah tell you to do?And you did that,And we did thisAnd people have been killing each other in the name of some difference or another, for millions of years.Remember when,Ug killed Og,Because Og was from a different cave and f**ked Ug's cavewoman, and worshipped the Moon and not the Sun.Same old shit Eugene.We haven't left the cave yet.(Albeit a cave with voice activated smart windows).Will we ever?
- Are you actually rapping here?
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@ResurgetExFavilla
I agree that the entire concept is absurd from the perspective of justice. The classic scholastic definition of usury in the Western tradition is 'profit without risk or labor', and that's precisely what a limited liability for-profit corporation provides to its stockholders. I think it's absurd that it arose out of some healthy 'evolution' of Western law; the limited liability corporation was first created in Delaware as a scheme to attract corporations looking to headquarter in the most friendly legal environment possible. It worked, and other American states adopted it in order to regain equal economic footing. That's a just a race to the bottom as far as corruption is concerned, not some profound advancement.
- Absolutely. In truth, usury fundamentally undermines economic production. The global financial institution is essentially a huge Ponzi scheme, that is 'too big to fail'. Wealth is stockpiled for gains (thanks to usury), & old debts are paid off with even greater new debts contingent on new wealth coming in. The problem with this scheme, is that capital is steered away from means of production in favor of even more capital. Less production, thus, entails less labour & less income, hence less consumption. The greatest manifestation of this Ponzi scheme is the USD. The Dollar gives the US total impunity in fiscal & monetary policy. The shock of extreme financial adventures by US institutions is absorbed by the rest of the World, without risk. Traditionally, such adventures always & quickly end in the collapse of the economy & sometimes the state, under hyperinflation. The USD, being the global reserve currency, allows the surplus Dollar to be spent outside of the country, thus never running the risk of high inflation. Close to a trillion USDs are exported every year in exchanged for goods & services, which means a reduction of circulated money within the country accompanied by a simultaneous increase in domestic product, hence little inflation. In other words, the average American gets some $3k free stuff every year for virtue of being an American, at the expense of the rest of the world. This is extremely unsustainable, & pays no regards to future generations & national legacy. I t's just pure maximization of today's wealth at the expense of future generations. The epitome of self-gratification.
How is that administered? The idea has been floated in America, but people always say it would be a nightmare to actually implement. For example, how do you deal with capital flight and offshoring?
- It would indeed be difficult to implement a system like Zakat in a culture that glorifies profit & greed. An underlined modesty & duty to family & state for God is most expected. Systematically, this was done by the Diwan -the state secretary (or registry)- through a process called Istihqaq – to determine & monitor boundaries & assets. This dual practice, both individual duty & state efficiency, should, in principle, minimize capital flight.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
This is actually probably why China hasn't started any hot wars yet - the one child policy lead to what the Chinese call 'princeling syndrome': their conventional forces have a huge handicap because all the soldiers that they have are both solely financially responsible for all of their living ancestors and their family's only hope for an enduring legacy. In military engagements, these soldiers are incredibly risk averse, trying to return alive at all costs, which is horrible for military competence. The government is rolling back that policy rapidly, trying to encourage stay-at-home moms and ramp fertility up exponentially. Over 80% of Chinese GenZ moms are staying at home, which is a huge increase. I think that once the new generation comes of age you're going to see China become much more aggressive on the world stage.
- I don't see that as a handicap at all. No matter the case, China has double the population of the entire West combined. 10 times more militarily eligible persons than the US. The reason why China is not acting aggressively against the US yet, is because the latter has huge leverage controlling maritime trade & crucial straits. China must secure its energy supply -from the Middle East & Central Asia- outside of US naval reach, secure its material resources from Africa & Australia, by establishing new maritime & land trade network circumventing US bases, & also secure their export markets in Europe & elsewhere, again without the US. Only then, will China feel comfortable enough to say "f you".
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@thett3
I am strongly opposed to the types of inheritance taxes you see in European countries, which often kick in at very low thresholds of around $100-$300k. I would contend that a person should ABSOLUTELY be able to inherit millions of dollars without the government getting involved at all. Something I don't think most people would agree with.
- As I mentioned in a previous post, Economy is basically the centrifugal transfer of wealth. Capital to Labour, which is new Income. New labour raises production, & new income raises consumption. Hence, economy rises. More tax on static wealth, means more capital turned into labour. That's good for the economy. I would agree with you if the private entity concerned is investing their profits directly into more innovation & labour, then taxation wouldn't make sense. That, because the collected amount would shrink much more considerably going through the bureaucratic government before reaching the concerned parties, then if it was instead managed by said dedicated private entity.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
- I heard before that Islamic Law did not "evolve" enough to adopt 'corporate personhood', which is a ridiculous claim. One, the practice actually originates from the Waqf concept in Sharia, that is non-profit perpetual trust, thus entrusted to God (generally schools, hospitals, mosques & such). Two, for-profit trusts (corporations) are against Taklif, the fundamental concept of human accountability. Duties & privileges, including wealth, can you only be entrusted to a human, as a vicegerent to God. As an actor by-proxy of God's boundaries, only a human can be accountable for the preservation of these boundaries (or lack thereof). An impersonal entity such as a corporation, therefore, does not by design possess any divine permission to act on God's domain. The whole notion is absurd; a perpetual for-profit trust is immune to humans' justice, yet acts on humans' rights. That's chaos of moral & legal boundaries, for these are the rights within & dues without. Inheritance is just an aspect of this action. If not purged, in such system, corporations will grow indefinitely in perpetuity, overcoming states, & even empires.
- As to Inheritance Tax, it's indeed weird. Being a Muslim, the only thing that makes sense to me is static wealth tax, & nothing else. Economy is essentially the centrifugal transfer of wealth, from capital to income, which is labour. New income raises consumption, & new labour raises production. Hence, economic growth. By taxing static wealth, you compel the holder to either invest his wealth so diligently as to make a profit greater than the tax, or keep his wealth while contributing to the economy through that tax. (in Sharia it's generally 2.5%).
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@Bones
Would love to see a debate between you two.
- Amen to that.
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you mean piss/urine
- I'm sure it said, "reproductive substance". They come from different holes in case you weren't aware...
allah is f*cking idiot for claiming that women can give birth in 6 months
- It is you who's claiming that, calling yourself idiot is a new concession...
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17 million black slave are few ?
- Try 170 million or 17 billion, or better 17 trillion... stop lying. The entire North African population was half that.
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@ Lunar108
I'd love to see the sources of his claims that black slaves were a rarity under islam
- I mentioned the specific names & locations of the destinations of these Black slaves...
I've provided mine and he claim that both are inadequate but he made many claims and provided no evidence whatsoever
- A Christian pastor is not a source...
while mamluke (slav/white) slaves did have an islamic dynasty there were no black slaves dynasty
- Already mentioned, the second Akhshidit dynasty, founded by Kafur, the Nubian slave – or the Black slave king Ambar in India...
, I can't help but wonder why ?
- Show me the FREE Arab or Turkic or Indian or whatever dynasty in Christian Europe, or Secular West.
I mean even the turk got the ottoman empire
- The Ottomans were not slaves, albeit slaves run their empire. Examples of Turkic slave dynasties are the Ghaznavids, the Ghurids, the Delhi Mamluks... As for Black dynasties, there are plenty of them.
I searched and found nothing supporting his claims
- Which claim...? Everything I say is FACT.
also black slaves are called abd which translate into -slave-while white slaves are called mamluk which translate into -owned-
- LMAO! That's the eastern (Middle East) vs. western (Maghreb) terminology. Black slaves in the Middle East are called mamluk too. Regardless, a Muslim can not call a slave 'Abdi or Mamluki (my slave), that's categorically prohibited in Islam, for the beloved Prophet (pbuh) said: "do not call who is under you 'my slave', call them 'my brother' or 'my friend'", we are all only slaves to God.
just wanted to mention this trivia
- Stupid* trivia.
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@FLRW
The Prophet Muhammad did not try to abolish slavery, and bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves himself.
- In name, yes he did not. But in practice, he completely abolished it. There is no chattel slavery in Islam. In fact, some of the most severe punishments are prescribed in Sharia for those who enslave people in chattel slavery, ranging from severing one hand, to one hand & one foot, to execution, to crucifixion. The beloved Prophet (pbuh) turned the Slavery Institution into a welfare program to deal with prisoners of war, in a way to integrate them into Muslim society, in loyalty & productivity. A slave in Islam may effectively own property, participate in literally all aspects of social & political life, practice their own faith. A slave may also be elected as head of state, in accordance to Muhammed's (pbuh) command: "be dutiful to your ruler, even if he is a handicapped Black slave". In fact, this happened few times in Islamic History. The Mamluk Dynasty (literally 'slave') ruled the Middle East for 250 years, despite being slaves. Because they were elected by the people to lead the country, they had to be bought by the state to perform their duties. They were slaves owned by the state to rule the state. That's the legacy of our beloved Prophet (pbuh).
But he insisted that slave owners treat their slaves well and stressed the virtue of freeing slaves.
- He commanded they be treated as family, meaning, it is an obligation on the master to feed, shelter & care for his slave as he would his own son, else punishable by law.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
ISIS are largely Salafist Islam. It's a fringe school that used to be relegated to one tiny backwater of Arabia and for much of Islamic history was not very influential or mainstream. It was the school adopted by the house of Saud in the Najd. When the British put the house of Saud in power (hence Saudi Arabia) this school of Islam also came to power, and the royal family of Saudi Arabia has been using their vast oil incomes to finance its promulgation throughout the Middle East and beyond ever since. They view other Muslims as infidels, which is a pretty unique understanding in the Islamic world, and leads to a lot higher levels of inter-religious violence. Groups like ISIS are often even more extreme than mainsteam Salafist thinkers, so using what they say about slavery as some sort of example of Islamic thought at large, or especially historically, is not advised.
- Wow! This is extremely well informed. I missed this in this lost Forum. To be more specific, in case others are interested. Salafis are the followers of Muhammed Ibn Abd Wahab, a rebel against his clan & the Ottomans, who taught the following:
1. Visiting tombs, & seeking blessings from the beloved Prophet (pbuh) or saints is Shirk (polytheism).
2. Anyone who does the above is Kafir (which is literally the entire Muslim world), & anyone who denies this is also Kafir.
3. God is a body, in space & time, albeit a very very very big body.
4. Al-Hussein, grandson of the Prophet (pbuh), deserved to be killed.
5. The world is eternal in the past.
- Despite failed attempts for 150 years, the Wahabis were successful in building their state with the help of the British early 20th century, to remove the Ottomans from Arabia. Which they achieved by massacring entire towns, such as Taif & Hail, men, women & children...
- Fast-forward to the present, Salafis eventually divided between 4 major groups & other countless local groups:
1. Jamis, including the Madkhalis, the mainstream in Saudi, loyal to the Saudi government.
2. Sururis, calling to follow the founder, anti-Saudi government, such as al-Qaeda.
3. Jihadis, like sururis, but believe in war & terrorism to achieve their goals, such as ISIS.
4. Daawis, they infiltrate other groups & schools to spread their virus.
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for the millionth time america is not a religion nor a religious group it's country feel free to discuss it on the political fourm
- I remember Bush attacking Iraq because God told him to vanquish the devil, that the daily briefings of the invasion were Biblical sermons. For the billionth time, if your concern was Life, then the US's committing 10000 9/11s would be much more concerning to you than the one 9/11 committed by a group in some mountain.
we are discussing religion in case you didn't notice and not politics
- You may wanna brush up on the definition of Politics.
the us is a country and not a religion , islam took over 17 million black slaves from africa and distributed them into muslim countries
- & the West took 17 billion Black slaves to America. Islam can't even take...
islam killed and accused arabic thinkers , inventors and discoverers of blasphrmy , heresy and many of them got executedislam took slavs and turks as slavesislam is known for bombings and harem where each man can marry four wives or 10 wives also the 72 virgins in heavenislam is known for anti Semitism and the jews choose palastine as retaliation for mufti of palastine supported adolf hitler in his holocaust
- Who's this Islam? Do you know him?
grand mufti ahmad of palastine declared"Al-Husseini began the conversation by declaring that the Germans and the Arabs had the same enemies: “the English, the Jews, and the Communists.”"muhammad kicked the jews out of maddina , killed all the men in another jewish trib and took all the children and women as slaves
- They killed 800,000 Palestinians...
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how did that crusader reach egypt , no crusader ever set foot on africa
- LOL! Fantasies =/= History.
and if islam is as perfect as you claim it to be why is everyone running away from it to the west ?
- Who's telling you all these stupid things?
even the syrian refugees in turkey are getting kicked out , let me point here that they didn't get kicked out from any other European country.
- You're living in a bizzaro world.
why didn't saudi arabia took the syrian refugees if islam is as perfect as you claim it to be ? isn't sharia law the law of saudi arabia as saudi arabia claim ?
- No. Saudis are closest to the West than Islam.
- I wonder why he attempted to "demolish" that small pyramid... for kicks I guess... Why don't you post about the dozens of *actual* temples & hundreds of thousands of artifacts literally pillaged from Egypt by the Europeans. Lest you be the biggest hypocrite on this planet.
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@RationalMadman
I am open to be educated on this, please can you contrast Christian African nations vs Islamic ones and explain how the Islamic led with a lighter or friendlier methodology? I am willing to be proven wrong.
- I appreciate your question & honesty, I kinda answered this earlier. The subject here is two folds, one is labels vs. facts, & the other is majority practice.
- The global narrative today is written by the West, other narratives rarely make it to the spotlight, unless through the West (such as the case for Native Americans, or African Americans). As such, much of the focus is on the great Western achievements & the supposed barbarism of others, while none on their own atrocities. The narrative is thus controlled with sheer labels. Particularly, equality, freedom, civilization...etc for us... backwardness, barbarism, oppression... for others; albeit, in facts the opposite is the case. Allow me to give you few examples:
1. Native Americans were portrayed as violent disgusting brutes whose goal is to devour the elegant civilized peaceful White Europeans, when in reality the opposite is the case.
2. Black African women were portrayed as lustful degenerate whores who just want to seduce the pure chaste White man... in fact, this was just rape.
3. The British campaigned for the abolishment of Slavery, as saviors of the world. In reality, the racism & inhumane treatment against Blacks & even against the lower class actually got worse with the Abolishment. Why did they do it then? One, because of the industrial revolution, the UK did not need slaves anymore, they needed workers. Slaves cost more than coal, & they were prone to many rebellions. Two, all the enemy major powers of the world relied on slaves. Particularly, the Ottoman Empire, which was pressured by Europeans to abolish slavery under the moral pretext of "equality". In effect, slaves in Europe were property under extremely harsh conditions, whereas slaves in the Ottoman Empire run the country, as they constituted 3 of the 4 ruling factions of the state. Virtually, the entire Ottoman government & military were slaves. The abolishment of Slavery for the UK meant lowering cost of construction, whereas it mean the collapse of the state for the Ottomans, which indeed happened shortly after.
- It is not about Christian vs Islamic methodology, rather about majority practice. It just so happens that, for the better part of Islamic History, tolerant trends of Islam dominated. That does not mean callous trends did not exist, only they were uncommon; though, that kinda changed with Colonialism. In Christianity, the opposite was the case. The callous trends of the faith (like Catholicism) dominated Christian History, while the more tolerant trends, such as the Copts, went unnoticed. The Copts of Abyssinia were the first people to accept Muslim refugees from the persecution in Mecca. The Copts have an amazingly peaceful & tolerant history, known for their hospitality & acceptance. Even more so, the Nestorians of Iraq (the Eastern Church), the most rich & tolerant of all Christians. They preserved Greek medicine & knowledge, they constituted the Diwan class of the Abbasid Empire (officials). The churches of Middle East are generally tolerant & humility-oriented, contrary to the European churches (with exceptions of course, such as the. Cathars). Unfortunately, the European churches came on top & dominated the Christian story. Imagine the Abbasids or the Ottomans adopted the Wahhabi trend of Islam... they'd probably do worse than Catholics.
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Let's focus on this primarily as this is the most wrong.
- None of it is. I haven't even scratched the surface. I am open to have a formal debate on the subject if you wish.
- And? "second-class citizens" LOL! This is just a misnomer fallacy, for lack of any actual objection. The Ottomans literally sent ships to save Jews from European persecution... The Jews had more rights under Muslims than they ever had under Western rule, or elsewhere. They were accorded territory under Islam, none in the West. They were accorded freedom to practice their Torah & Talmud, the right to have their own courts of law, their own laws to run their territories or neighborhoods, the right to elect their own leaders, the right to enact their own policies & issue their own budgets, the right to have their own education system & their own schools. In their own communities, their language was preserved, & their culture persisted. None of this is granted to Jews in the West, & yet "second class citizens". LMAO! What should we call Jews in the US or Europe? Fifth class citizens? Imagine the US or the UK accord Jews all these rights... just kidding, in their dreams...
- What's the objection here? No conquest in History was as just & compassionate as the Early Islamic Conquests.
- The article has a strong Christian narrative & very few academic sources. I stopped reading Wikipedia months ago after the evangelicals & SJWs highjacked the site, sadly! First of all, the Armenian War is a case against Secularism, not Islam. It was led by the Young Turks. a secularist materialist nationalist , movement, deeply European in thought & spirit (Ataturk's people), which deposed the Caliph (Sultan Abdelhamid II) & replaced Islamic Law & system with western ones. No such event occurred in 6 centuries of Ottoman rule, but the moment the country is secularized, deaths start rolling out. Second of all, there is no such thing as the Armenian "genocide". Genocide is what the Nazis did to the Jews, or the French did to the Algerians. This was war, a civil war for the most part, Armenians sided with enemies (Russians) against the Ottomans (their own country) in a WWI, if 1 million Armenian died, 700 thousands Turks died fighting them. Finally, the prior century leading to the WWI, Christian nations under Ottoman control (Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians...etc), incited by Western European powers, all rose against the Ottomans in the Balkans, leading to the death (& sometimes expulsion) of 90% of the Turkish population in the region (over 10 million Turks); after 5 centuries of peaceful coexistence. This begot a lot of hate between the Christians & the Muslims of the region, which ended in Balkanization. Yet, no one in the West is talking about the Turkish genocide...
- LOL! Yes, Ottomans were pioneer of Knowledge & the Sciences, an ideal which Europe looked up to & was inspired by. The Enlightenment itself is a product of Ottoman influence in Europe. All Renaissance & Enlightenment thinkers studied, either directly or by proxy, under Ottomans. Much of European industrialization came from the Ottomans & the Mughals, such as in the making of steam engines, clocks, sewing mills, mechanical devices, military equipment (rockets, torpedoes, tanks..etc)... Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton... all were swimming in vast amounts of Ottoman & Arab knowledge, falsely credited to the former. The Asha'ari ideas dominant in the Ottoman Empire at the time, were also adopted by intellectuals like Berkeley, Hume, Hamilton, Locke...etc. In fact, the very ideal of religious pluralism sought in Europe came from the Ottoman Millet system. Jews, Armenians, Greeks.... each with their own millet (community), & their own laws & territories.
I can tell you what I am fully aware of.Unlike the Masai in Kenya which were never force into Christianity,
- I don't know how to answer this. So, the Masai people were not forced to convert, therefore there was no force conversion. That's a logical fallacy. Forced conversion is not always "convert or die", that's mostly a Catholic thing. The very nature of Colonialism, based on faith & race, where a White Christian is a human, while a Black non-Christian is not, is coercion enough.
the native tribes in Tanzania and Nigeria (in the Islamic part of Nigeria) had to bow down and conform to Islam.
- Sensationalism nonsense. 8 centuries of Islamic rule of Tanzania & Nigeria, & yet the majority of the population was still indigenous. No, Islam spread in Tanzania largely through trade, then under the Omani empire, then the Zanzibar Sultanate. In Nigeria, Islam came with trade & also with the Almoravid conquest in the 11th century, which gave rise to two of the most powerful empires in Subsaharan History. The Mali empire, spanning 400 cities & millions of square km, with a 4000 ships fleet. The Timbuktu university then reported to host 25k students, & its library 1 million books (in contrast to 1700 books in the largest library in Europe then, the Sorbonne). Then the Songhai Empire, even greater in area & wealth, the wealthiest African state of its time, until their fall at the hands of the Moroccan Saadi dynasty. Then came the Sokoto Sultanate in the 19th century to Nigeria, trade flourished & it became a wealthy nation. Education was granted & mandated to all men & women, courts established in every corner of the state, & land was evenly distributed among the conquered people; generating the most prolific era of Nigerian history, in scholarship, arts & technology. In fact, the Sokoto Nigerian woman Mariam Fodio is known to be the most prolific Muslim author in Islamic History. She wrote over 70 books, in literature, poetry, law, theology, history, medicine, & even sufism. I have one of her books. Despite all this, most of the population of Nigeria remained indigenous. Until, of course, Brits came in the early 1900s, 50 years later the whole indigenous population became Christian...
More importantly, there are basically 0 places the Brits colonised where native tribes have been totally destroyed of their native sacred sculptures and such.
- I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "totally". That's a hard task to achieve, even for Brits... But "almost totally" would probably apply to a fifth of the world.
Hinduism in India was in fact made by the Brits, uniting Shaivism with Vaishnavism to reduce internal conflict and even fusing Pagan religions in with it too.
- I don't disagree here, add to that Wahabism in Arabia, & Bahaism in Iran, & Kamalism in Turkey...etc. All horrible brutal ideologies aimed at removing traditional religions, which manifested the strongest resistance to Colonialism. The bay of Bengal (along with the Marmara region) was the most industrialized region of the 18th century world, a much desired prize for the Brits. Early 19th century resistance against the East India Company followed by the Sepoy Rebellion made the British realize the importance of faith in the Indian people, hence the wide scale propaganda campaign to rewrite Indian history depicting the Muslims as brutal invaders, & reform Indian religions, to conform to that narrative, hence the rise of Hindutva. In contrast, traditional Hindu religions adopted & merged with Islamic ideas, to the point where even Hindu kings would usually pay homage to Muslim saints.
Can you give me examples of the British destroying native scultptures and blackmailing the population into Christianity as opposed to merley introducing it?
- I'm not sure if you're joking here...?! Have your heard of North America? Nuff said... I don't know if you're aware of this, the Whites of the 19th century & much of the 20th century saw others as sub-human slaves, & treated them accordingly.
- In truth, Colonialism is just an extension of the Crusades, though expressed in various forms. As such, the main idea was the Earth belongs to us Christians, & we just need to claim it. The entire Colonial narrative is built on the assumption that lands are without natives. Lands are lush & brimming with resources, ripe for the picking. In practice, this came into effect in two main ways. Settlement by annihilation, as in exterminating or displacing the native population. Or, settlement by assimilation, as in assimilating the native's culture into the colonial's. The Protestants were generally more fond of the former (Britain, Netherlands...), while the Catholics more fond of the latter (Spain, Portugal, France...).
- What's the issue?! Shows how Islam brought the Golden Age of the Maghreb.
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- Wrong! I said, Islam had no hand in Slavery, period. Here is what I said:
There was no slavery in Islamic Caliphate! We just concede calling it that because of convention. There is nothing in common between Western chattel slavery & Islamic slave except the name. The worst slave status in Islam (Qin) was far better than the best serf in Europe, in terms of rights & social standing & opportunity. They had the right to own property, marry, practice their own faith, & participate in all aspects of social & political life, as long as they fulfill their duties to their masters, wether be it at home or plantation or factory or regiment or elsewhere -unlike serfs & peasants, who had no such opportunities. Historically, some Qins even rose to the highest level of government, such as Abu Misk Kafur as a ruler of Egypt in the 10th century, or Mudhafar Qutuz, the mighty conqueror & founder of the Mamluk dynasty. The former, a Black slave from Nubia, & the latter a Circassian slave from the Caucasus. Qins also constituted the small minority of slaves in the Muslim world, the majority were Mawali. The other types of slaves (namely: Mudabbar, Mukatab, Um-Walad, & Mawla) could not be sold or bought, & were essential freeman, except in allegiance & indemnity to the master. In case you did not know, 3 fo the 4 rulings factions in the Ottoman Empire were made up of slaves. The Court (Divan) led by the Grand Vizier (generally a slave), the Harem led by the Sultanah (generally a slave), & the Military (Janissaries) led by slave generals.
Most slaves taken by Muslims were either Whites or Turks. Black slaves were rarely a thing, for a good reason. The only source of slaves in Islam is POWs (prisoners of war); since much of Black Africa joined the faith through trade & preaching (by Sufis), there was little chance to acquire such slaves. That said, some important Black slave communities in the MENA region (Middle East North Africa) were: the Ikhshidi slaves from Nubia (from early conquests into Abyssinia) – among them the famous ruler of Egypt Abu Misk Kafus who ruled Egypt during the 10th century (YES, he was a Black slave) – The Bukhari slaves (from the conquest of Saadi dynasty of the Songhai empire & later), they constituted the noble class in Morrocan Alawi dynasty under the Sultan, & the officers of the Royal Guards (they still do) – The Black eunuchs of Arabia who generally managed the holy mosques.... etc.
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@Lunar108
the people living in mecca the quraysh tribe were very open to religious freedom and around mecca before islam came lay many Idols uniting all the arabs as each tribe worshiped multiple idols depending on time , the existence of both christians like waraqa bin naufal and jews like :the freedom of religion in pre-islamic times in the Arabian Peninsula along with the diversity of the gods worshipped shows a great example of freedom of religion , as long as no one insult the gods of the other that's until muhammad came with his new religion and insulted his tribes god and tried to destroy their idols,
- Why do you lie so much?!! Now you're making up new history?! The beloved Prophet (pbuh) did not insult their idols nor attempted to destroy them, according to Allah's command: "Do not revile those whom they invoke other than Allah, because they will revile Allah in ignorance out of spite. 1 For We have indeed made the deeds of every people seem fair to them. Then, their return is to their Lord and He will inform them of what they have done." (6:108)
muhammad was caught before he could do anything
- So which is it? Did he insult & destroy or did he not?
, being of high born in his tribe he managed to leave with slab on the rest however his followers suffering have just began since the holy book of islam which they need to recite contains insults towards the idols of the tribe claimed that those idols couldn't defend themselves therefore they are not gods .
- As expected from a psychopath... Defending the torturers & abusers against the victims... So, your theory is that because the Quran contains the story of Abraham where he tells his people their idols can't defend themselves (which is even worse in the Bible), Quraysh were so mad they tortured him & his followers, starved them & killed them...
now let us analyze this, imagine a person walk into a church 1500 years ago in the middle of the sermon breaks the cross and claim that jesus isn't god otherwise the cross would have defended itself , what would happen to that person ?
- Imagine 1500 years ago that person walking into a Church telling them to believe in One God, WITHOUT destroying desecrating their sanctities, in response they they proceed to burn, torture & kill him...
let me give you another example , imagine that I rode a bulldozer and used it to demolish a mosque, burned all the qurans in there and then I claimed that allah doesn't exist otherwise the mosque would have defended itself , how would muslims feel especially in a muslim majority country .
- We don't need to imagine this, the West has been doing this for 1000 years to Muslims.
after Conquest of Mecca by islam muhammad prohibited all the arabic tribes from worshiping their idols
- Are you obsessed with lying or something? The beloved Prophet (pbuh) gave them amnesty after two decades of doing every heinous & horrible things to Muslims. Many converted the, but many did not. For example, Safwan was one of the nobles of Quraysh who used to torture Muslims & attempted to assassinate the Prophet (pbuh). He did only converted months after the conquest.
muhammad also destroyed all the idols
- Muslims don't worship idols, Mecca became Muslim.
before islam the Arabian Peninsula had many cultures , many religionsafter islam it had only one religion and one culture islam ,
- Reminds me of Europe, the Americas & Africa... so many indigenous cultures & religions razed & replaced by Christianity. – The difference is, in Arabia the people came into Islam willingly, more than 90 tribes of the peninsula came to pledge allegiance with the beloved Prophet (pbuh) without conflict. Quraysh & their allies eventually did that too.
this tradition of destroying the land marks of other cultures like what isis did in iraq came from muhammad destroying the idols back in mecca and then in the entire Arabian Peninsula ,
- You just destroyed your own fantasy. If ISIS is blasting those temples & idols in the 2010s, what have the Muslims not done so the past 1400 years??? Speaking of Iraq, much of Baghdad's Abbasid legacy was destroyed by the British in their invasion of Iraq early 20th century.
you might not now this but one of islamic caliphate's son tried to destroy egypt pyramids sadly or luckly he failed after only managing to leave a massive gash at one of themIn AD 1196, Al-Aziz Uthman, Saladin's son and the Sultan of Egypt, attempted to demolish the pyramids, starting with that of Menkaure. Workmen recruited to demolish the pyramid stayed at their job for eight months, but found it almost as expensive to destroy as to build. They could only remove one or two stones each day. Some used wedges and levers to move the stones, while others used ropes to pull them down. When a stone fell, it would bury itself in the sand, requiring extraordinary efforts to free it. Wedges were used to split the stones into several pieces, and a cart was used to carry it to the foot of the escarpment, where it was left. Despite their efforts, workmen were only able to damage the pyramid to the extent of leaving a large vertical gash at its northern face.
- Back to your lies I see! They weren't trying to destroy the pyramid, rather to get in, like many before them. You know why? Some crusader told al-Aziz there is treasure inside. Speaking of which, it was the Romans who did the most damage to the pyramids, completely destroying one of them, followed by Europeans who pillaged Egypt from its historical wealth, including entire temples.
- Why so much hate & insanity?!
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@RationalMadman
The one boundary the British (and most European) colonists had when colonising was to not blackmail the inhabitants to Christianity and also to not directly destroy statues or sculptures that the natives found sacred.
- LMAO! That's exactly what they did literally everywhere they went. Have you ever opened a History book? LOL!
I'm not saying they didn't sin in other ways but this was just a fact, fact-check me if you want.
- Dude, you do that to your own people, let alone others. Vast amounts of Native children systematically kidnapped to be "civilized" & christianized, countless of them died in the process. The essential cause of most Colonial powers was to spread Christianity & "civilize" the world *cough* enslave *cough* pillage... Virtually the entire native population of the Americas was compelled to Christianity through coercion or missions aimed at systematically erasing native religions & languages. Much of the population of Subsaharan Africa went from indigenous religions to Christianity in half a century, an unprecedented event in human history, under extensive oppression & bloody persecution, with systematic desecration of their temples & sanctities. In Chad, hundreds of Islamic scholars were invited to "discuss" religion, they were summerly massacred after they gathered in one place. They destroyed all their madrasas & burned their libraries, thereafter Africans were only allowed in European schools if they adopt Christianity. The Spanish massacred 7 million & expelled another million in their effort to Christianize Muslim Spain. More than 5 million Muslims were massacred or expelled from Greece if they did not convert to Christianity, their mosques turned into barns & houses burned. In Algeria, a third of the population was genocided in a mission to "civilize" the country, after which the French archbishop celebrated in Paris the 'victory of Christianity over Islam' in a great ceremony. In China, the rise of Christianity was followed by a wide scale persecution of native Chinese & one of the greatest rebellions in Chinese History, against the Qin dynasty, which led to 100 million deaths. I could go on & on & on. ... "fact check-me" LMAO! Not because you stick your head in the sand does that mean everyone else can not see... You people are completely oblivious to the immense destruction & suffering your countries cause the rest of the World. Your denial is not gunna change History.
The Ottoman Empire and all Islamic invaders completely blackmailed the populace into Islam and destroyed anything sacred to them if they felt like it.
- This gotta be one of the funniest things I read! The Ottomans gave complete autonomy to the Christians (& others) under their rule. They had their own territories, their own laws, their own courts, & even managed their own budgets. They appointed Byzantine heirs to high-offices, admirals, grand viziers & governors. They reinstated the Orthodox Christian patriarch after being banished by the Byzantines, then into newly designated positions in empire's cabinet, along with the patriarchs of other churches & the jews. They brought in Catholics, Maronites, Armenians & Jews to Istanbul & assigned neighborhoods & churches (formerly Orthodox) for them... That said, the Ottomans were even less tolerant than the Abbasids or the Umayyads... The Abbasids even saw Christian grand viziers, that's the highest position in the empire under the Caliph. After 13 centuries of Islamic rule of the Middle East, native Christianity went down only 60%, because their faith was protected & their culture preserved. In contrast, indigenous religions in Africa shrunk more that under a measly few decades of Christian rule of Africa, even worse in the America. Stop projecting your disgusting History into ours.
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@zedvictor4
- Do you often write poems about your fetishes too?
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@Lunar108
still no mention of the female Ovum
- I suspect it's the yellow substance... There was no word for ovum then... Which begs the question, how did the dear Prophet (pbuh) know that children are a product of both female & male substances, contrary to what the Arabs believed then or everybody else for that matter? (including the Greeks). In fact, in Europe, they would only adopt this view in the 18th century.
while the child birth success is high it's survivability is low it would also endanger both the mother's health and the baby's and might damage the mothers reproduction organs.
- Viability means survivability...
also we can create children without the men and women using artificial womb we just need the ovum of a woman and some semen sadly that's considered un ethical
- And...?
a god makes a mistake at the numbers of months women need to give birth
- Are you implying 7th century Arabs gave birth at 6 months?
while the child birth success is high it's survivability is low it would also endanger both the mother's health and the baby's and might damage the mothers reproduction organs.
- This is true before 6 months, not after.
if it proves something it proves that I'm a f*cking idiot
- Couldn't agree more.
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@zedvictor4
A square is a circle with corners.
- LOL!
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@zedvictor4
On the spot.And scholarly tone diminishes,Into the background hiss,Of recrimination,And cheap jibes.From which,Ironically,A message,Is received.Roger that YasOver and out.
- There was a time on this website & its predecessor (DDO) where people argued with their ideas, not emotions.
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@Lunar108
- Dude, you lost & this is your last attempt to save some face. Get over it.
people like yassine who are extremely hateful and obsessed of the west and america are the reason for 9/11 and similar acts , he gets out of his way to change the subject from talking about islam to talking about the west ,
- In case you haven't noticed, the one with the disturbing obsession is you. If you really cared about life, then you should be talking instead about the US committing 10000 of 9/11s. But you aren't, you're just a psycho full of hate. I'm sure if you it were up to you, you'd raise that number by an order of magnitude.
I mean the USA thrown a nuke at the japanese yet they aren't this hateful
- Then why are so hateful against Muslims? They didn't even do that, or a fraction of the West does. What a psycho.
, he probably suffers from inferiority complex and extremely jealous that
- Then you should shush even if Muslims do 10000 9/11s against you, like the US does to the rest of the World.
the westren countries are developed while most muslim countries are third world countries
- You still living in the 80s... LOL! Muslim countries yield a larger industrial & agricultural output than all Western countries combined. China's industrial output is even larger. The income of the Middle East last year was 60% that of the EU, but with a 5 times faster growth.
don't feel bad many muslim dynasties suffered from worse problems sadly all the evidence and books mentioning that are in arabic
- Is that your defense...? "it's hidden" lol!
also the arabic islamic history isn't as well documented in english as that of Europethis allows many muslims to bullshit and tell people whatever they want about their religion including making whatever story they like
- Thanks for your confessions.
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@Benjamin
Free will contradicts theism because a creator God necesarily prohibits free will.P1: An omniscient God knows the complete history of every possible universe; (by necesity including all choices made every universe)P2: A creator God decided which of the possible universes to createC: God literally decided how history would turn out and what choices people would make
- Although the arguments is badly formulated, it rings truth. Free Will -in the Christian sense- is nonsense, of course. It's a square-circle.
There is no way around this conclusion. God decided to create a universe where Adam and Eve would eat from the fruit of knowledge. God decided that Adam and Eve would sin, because literally nothing is outside his controll. By definition, nothing happens that conflict with God's decisions. Adam and Eve did not have free will; their choice was no more free than a clock is to show the correct time or not. The creator of the watch is responsible for the watch dysfunctioning, not the watch istself. Blaming a human for a crime is like blaming a gun for a murder --- sure it was the gun who shot the bullet, but the gun was controlled by someone else. This is just an analogy of course, but the point is important.
- Omnipotence necessarily entails Omniscience, & vise-versa. Omnipotence is the power over All Things (to bring into or take out of existence), which implies the knowledge over All Things, what is not known can not be brought into existence. Contrarily, Omniscience, as the knowledge over All Things, implies knowledge of all that is brought into existence & otherwise, which implies the impossibility of non-existence to all things which are known to be brought to existence, hence the power to bring all things to existence, thus Omnipotence. An All-Knowing being is also necessarily an All-Powerful being.
- A being that isn't omnipotent can not be God, for God is the necessary being, on which All Things are contingent. A being that isn't omniscient (All-Knowing) is not omnipotent either, for these are necessarily equivalent, hence can not be God. A god that does not know something is a god that does have the knowledge of All Things, this a non-omniscient being, therefore not God.
- The existence of Free Will, as in the will to act in the world without God's knowledge & will, entails a non-existence of an Omniscient Omnipotent being, thus the non-existence of God.
The problem of evil is so often dismissed without further elaboration by pointing to free will, and that humans (and/or demons), not God, cause evil and suffering in this world. When used to solve the problem of evil free will is nothing short of magic being invoked to dodge the disturbing implications of God's magic.
- The Problem of Evil is a Christian problem.
If we remove the "magic" from the equation we can confidently say that all humans have choice --- but that CHOISE IS NOT FREE FROM EXTERNAL CONTROLL AND CAUSALITY
- This is better than Free Will, yes.
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@zedvictor4
How many women "suffer domestic abuse" under Islam?
- 1 in 3 women in the US suffer domestic physical abuse. Worry about that first. You don't want to be an incoherent hypocrite!
Well, I suppose that if the domestic abuse of women isn't deemed to occur, then the answer will be zero.
- That's irrelevant to the subject here. We're talking about women abusing men, why do you keep bringing up abused women?! Or are you one of those feminists?
Let me ask you a simple hypothetical question.If your brother was to rape your wife, who would you embrace first?Your brother or your wife.
- I was gunna ask about your reaction if your wife was to rape your brother. But I don't wanna hear more of your threesome fetishes.
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@Lunar108
would love to see those hadiths along with their source
- "The male reproductive substance is white, and the female reproductive substance is yellow. When they meet, if the male semen went up first, then it shall be a male offspring by Allah's decree, if the female semen went up first, then it shall be a female offspring by Allah's decree" – Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Also in the Quran, "We created man from a drop of mingled fluid".
you're forgetting something very important here that would be called pre-matured birth not normal birth also it requires high end technology
- Your point?
We have commanded man to be good to his parents: his mother struggled to carry him and struggled to give birth to him- his bearing and weaning took a full thirty months. When he has grown to manhood and reached the age of forty he [may] say, ‘Lord, help me to be truly grateful for Your favours to me and to my parents; help me to do good work that pleases You; make my offspring good. I turn to You; I am one of those who devote themselves to You.’Mothers suckle their children for two whole years, if they wish to complete the term, and clothing and maintenance must be borne by the father in a fair manner. No one should be burdened with more than they can bear: no mother shall be made to suffer harm on account of her child, nor any father on account of his. The same duty is incumbent on the father’s heir. If, by mutual consent and consultation, the couple wish to wean [the child], they will not be blamed, nor will there be any blame if you wish to engage a wet nurse, provided you pay as agreed in a fair manner. Be mindful of God, knowing that He sees everything you do.(31:14)We enjoined upon man to be dutiful to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning lasted two years. (We, therefore, enjoined upon him): “Give thanks to Me and to your parents. To Me is your ultimate return.
- Thank you for confirming what I said. That, the duration designated serve as a legal basis for child care, alimony, child support..etc.
do you think that without the technology and medicines would any child survive after 6 months also the child would be unhealthy
- Hence, the LIMIT of viability.
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@Lunar108
let me guess , khadijah is the muslim woman and Hind Bint Utbah is the kaffar woman right ?
- Wut? They both were pagans at one point, & they both became Muslim. That's entirely besides the point. The point is that wealth in the hands of Arab women is decided by men in their lives. Khadijah & Hind were both wealthy at one point, because their fathers doted on them. Yet, the latter became poor & the former kept her wealth after their fathers' deaths. Why? Simply because men in Khadija's life decided not to take her wealth, as opposed to Hind.
and you're accusing me of sexism
- How old are you? You speak like a child.
empty claims with not even a shred of evidence
- Yours indeed. Absolutely! Your argument is, 'we have one wealthy merchant woman (who can only trade by proxy relying on a man), therefore all women have all the rights'. That's the worst hasty generalization I ever seen, a logical fallacy. I'll give you one better, Queen Victoria was the most powerful monarch of her time, yet British wives were sold by their husbands in the streets under her rule, women had no property rights or inheritance rights or education rights...
very shocked by the stupidity of your claimsand yet in ancient china they were given rights
- No. They had no property, inheritance, education, marital, divorce, or martial rights... No matter how much you insist. I know Chinese History. Stop lying.
, why are you comparing , what are you getting into by comparing what islam did with what happened in Europe , they were bad yes , does that make your case better no
- Let's see: Islam came & guaranteed personhood, property, inheritance, education, marital, divorce, & martial rights...etc to women. 7th century Arabs or 20th century Europeans (or elsewhere) had no such rights. Rights are better than no rights. I think my case is pretty solid.
1. islam is a religion , euorpe is a country -a group of countries- , IDK but I think that christianity was not ok with such acts
- Indeed, Europe should've adopted Islam, instead of Christianity. Well, a third of Europe was Muslim in the past, before the lovely peaceful European Christians purged all of them by death or exile (except in a few places, like Albania).
according to whom ? you , muhammad ?
- Let me get this straight, are you suggesting that women in pre-Islamic Arabia had all the aforementioned rights, that they had to right to own property without male guardianship? Or that they had a right to inheritance? Or that they had a right to marry with their consent? Or the right to initiate divorce? Or the right to protection? Or the right to education? Or the right to participate in commercial affairs? Or political affairs?...etc – none of which we find in absolutely any pre-Islamic society, wether Roman, Greek, Persian, Indian or Chinese, or Western (before late 20th century). Why go this far though? Just to tell yourself the beloved Prophet (pbuh) was not the one to grants these rights? DAMN! That's a little too much hate.
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@Lunar108
non of which were consumated
- They were... Early marriages were pretty common in the world, up to a couple of decades ago, before all the UN interference. They still are in many places. A century ago, the age of consent in the US was as low as 7 years old. Today, early marriage in the West is replaced by early out-of-wedlock relationships instead. In the US, early relationship age did not change, over 40,000 Americans under 10 years old have sexual intercourse & over 20 million under 17, most out of wedlock - with only 600,000 in marriage. What changed is the 'marriage' designation, with the degeneracy of the Western society, where sex without marriage is glorified & marriage is frown upon. Disgusting!
he had children with them they just died before their birth ,
- No. That was Aisha only, who reportedly miscarried.
just read your holy book
- Dude, you're a psycho. You need to be clinically checked.
your responses are extremely dumb are you comparing WW 2 with some stuipd religious war between muhammad and his clan , his entire clan doesn't amount to more than 14 thousand people , the scale itself makes your example extremely stupid
- You haven't made an argument, you made a concession. Thanks.
all I see in my comments is insults and empty claims that I'm making up , and I'm the nasty one here
- True.
I've yet to figure out what does the US have to do with this religious discussion since the us is a political country and NOT a theocracy
-LOL! What a psycho. You lost your moral ground to talk about this buddy. You embrace the West acting with impunity & yet you dare talk about others. You're insane.
I see fear , fear of loosing the debate
- Don't be afraid, losing in not the end of the world. You'll get over it one day.
I'm talking about diacritics in arabic and their effect on the meaning of the word
- Maybe you do this with others & it works, not gunna work on me.
I'm not discussing saudi arabia here nor iran , since most countries don't move due to religious reasons -unless they are theocracies- but move due to political reasons
- You mean like when the US invaded Iraq? Because Bush saw the devil & God told him to kill Saddam. In fact, daily briefings in the Oval Office during the Iraq Invasion started with Bible verses of war, on the lines of "the Wrath of God...".
also no comment here
- Lots of concession this time, huh!
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@Lunar108
every single case I've provided came with it's source
- Which happens to be virtually all Ibn Taymyyah.
and I have yet to see where's the evidence supporting your claims
- I'm not responsible for your ignorance. Why are you even trying if you don't even know! You don't understand what evidence means. The epitome of ignorance & stupidity.
for all I know you could be making tall tales about those people
- LMAO! If you don't know who these great people are, then why the heck are you sending me all those quotes?! Are you insane?!
also mentioning what they achieved and their expertise doesn't disprove that they got accused of heresy by muslim shekhs and imam
- Ibn Taymyah accused 99% of Muslims of heresy, he himself was imprisoned 7 times for his accusations & fatwas. Why should I care what Ibn Taymyah says? Tell that to a Wahabi. You wanted to make a point that great Muslim intellectuals were persecuted, whereas in reality their knowledge & legacy was hugely influential & respected. You lied & you lost. Moving on
some of them even excuted
- No. Stop lying. This isn't the West, none of these great intellectuals would have been allowed to teach in the West then or even today. They will be labeled heretics & expelled. Whereas under Islam, they flourished & their legacy spread far & wide.
are you running away from the question , I've already told you I believe that the holocaust did happen and the jews were victims of it what about you
- You have it backwards. You're the one who's running away from your own assertions. You claimed that criticizing Islam in some Muslim country (God knows which) will get you in trouble with blasphemy laws, I challenged you to criticize the Jews or deny the Holocaust in Europe, we'll see what trouble you'll get into then. If so, then hush about blasphemy laws this blasphemy laws that. That makes you an incoherent hypocrite!
christians don't criticize judaism , atheists do , The term Judeo-Christian is used to group Christianity and Judaism together, either in reference to Christianity's derivation from Judaism, Christianity's borrowing of Jewish Scripture to constitute the "Old Testament" of the Christian Bible, or due to perceived parallels
- How old are you?
victim mentality of muslims , the west doesn't even have the time to care about any of this non sense and you people keep pining the blame on them
- There it is! With enough pushing your true self comes out. Bruh, you lost your moral ground. How even dare you mention 9/11 & a French teacher while showing contempt to dozens of millions of lives. A true psychopath if I ever seen one! & you're right, the West are too callous & vicious to care about trivial things such as millions of lives.
and what does WW 2 have to do with anything , for all I know the US fought to stop adolf hitler and nazis from ruling the world
- Do you even understand English?! It's *SINCE* WWII, as in AFTER. The US has created too many grievances with too many peoples & countries, that's an impossible situation to sustain.
half of those if not all are caused by muslims
- LOL! Great defense you got there. I'm glad people like you hate Islam & our beloved Prophet (pbuh), so fitting from a psychopath. The world has changed buddy, the West is getting poorer & weaker, while the rest is getting richer & stronger. In 2019 the OIC countries (Muslim majority country) already surpassed the US & the EU in REAL GDP, while growing at 5 times the rate. The OIC countries's industrial output in 2021 is larger than that of the US & EU combined. Indonesia already surpassed Germany years ago. Turkey's industrial output last year was 50% larger than France's. Malaysia's industrial output per capita is higher than the US's. It's only a matter of time, before the Muslim world overtakes the West -along with China as well, to restore pre-Colonial global state of affairs. As for you, keep living in your fairy cloud.
there's a differnce between colonization and crusades , colonization wasn't led by a theocracy
- It doesn't matter, the Crusades are a walk in the park compared to Colonialism. & you're dreaming, Colonial powers were deeply motivated by faith (Christianity). One of the main discussions then was about the soul of Native Americans & Black Africans, they eventually settled on Natives having a soul, though an animal soul, not a human soul; & that Africans have none. Disgusting!
isis is trying to establish an islamic theocracy and restore the caliphate
- Why do you keep mentioning ISIS?? ISIS aggressions is breadcrumbs compared to US aggressions. The US's death toll is a THOUSAND TIMES greater than that of ISIS. You know what that means, it would take a 1000 ISISes to cause as much destruction in the world as the US's.
a continuous non-stop 1000 years of Western aggression against Muslims , what kind of nonsense is that what about the 1400 years of non stop jihad against the west and Europe?
- LMAO! How about Western aggression against non-Muslims? The killed even way more people in the entire continent of America & half of Africa & half of Asia, have these also attacked the West too? Europe is responsible for more deaths than the rest of the world combined (according to the Encyclopedia of Wars). What Muslim aggression against Europe!!
evidence again , also I'm not interested in conspiracy theories
as the war on terror, is the term that refers to an ongoing international military campaign launched by the United States government following the September 11 attacks. The targets of the campaign are primarily extremist groups located throughout the Muslim world, with the most prominent groups being al-Qaeda, as well as the Islamic State
- From that source, Casualties: at least 800 thousands killed & at least 37 million displaced. Case in point.
I'm discussing the use of islamophobia to stop people from criticizing/satire Islam
- Try antisemitism.
If you don't want to discuss that get lost
- I'll take that as a concession.
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@zedvictor4
A vile woman is an assumption.
- Someone just said: "...not all women are angels"
You might be vile.
- Your wife might be as well.
And people are usually vile for a reason.
- Doesn't excuse their vileness.
As a generalization,Focussing on individuals, doesn't address the collective ideology.
- Indeed, 1 in 4 men suffer domestic abuse in the US is just too high. Hence, conversion to Islam is the answer.
And not all women are angels,
- Not the vile ones for sure.
As are not all men,
- Sure.
But all women and all men are individuals,
- Is this a riddle...?
And not property to be silenced and separated.
- So I'm guessing according to you 96% of relationships in the US are between a property & a human...?
Silence and separation,Is the work of a vile person.
- Hence the verse, indeed.
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@Lunar108
are we bringing the holocaust now , so do you deny that the holocaust ever happen ?
- Why don't try that in France or Germany...? Then come & talk to me about blasphemy laws... LOL!
also many people criticize Judaism , but since Judaism don't have preaching like islam and christianity and you need to go to them and ask them if you want to join their religion less people criticize them compared with islam and christianity
- Judaism used to be #1 enemy of Christianity, things have changed since Israel & the Evangelicals. Christians don't want to criticize Judaism, because they love the Judeo-Christian feeling. Atheists don't criticize it, because they know very little about it, & also that can get you into trouble if you hurt the feelings of the Jews. Muslims don't criticize them either, because honestly they don't care.
9/11
Reminds me of this quote: “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” The answer is: possibly 10,000.
syrian refugees
- & Palestinians, Iraqis, Afghanis, Sudanese, Somalis, Yemenis, Libyans, Iranians, Indonesians... in dozens of millions, thanks to Western hegemony (mostly US) since WWII.
isis
- - Reconquista, Crusades, Age of "Discovery", Colonial Period, Post-Colonial Period = a continuous non-stop 1000 years of Western aggression against Muslims, with +100 million death toll.
al qaida
- Wahabis, funded by the British to remove the Ottomans from Arabia, then by the US to fight the Soviets, & to keep Arab nationalism in check, which eventually led to the fall of Iraq & Syria. The US caused the deaths of 1000 times more than ISIS, ALQAIDA & all the others combined.
the killing of the teacher in france
- & 1.2 MILLION people in the War On Terror, probably thousands of them teachers. Anything else?
من زاوية تاريخية ، ما قاله الدكتور الإخواني خالد الخالدي يثير في أعماق من غاصوا قليلاً في تاريخ الأمة بحاراً من الشجن، حيث ترجعنا تهمة الزندقة إلى سجل طويل من جرائم إقصاء المفكرين والعلماء، فهي تهمة ابتدعها الخلفاء العباسيين بداية في القضاء على كل معترض على ظلهم وجورهم ، ورغم ما قاله " الخالدي" أدان فيه نفسه، إلا أنه نكأ فينا جرحاً اتصل بكل أعلام الأمة الذين أعٌدموا بسبب خلاف سياسي قبل أن تلصق فيهم تهمة الزندقة .
- BS. Virtually all the quotes you showing here are from Ibn Taymyyah, directly or through his students. Ibn Taymyyah says the same about al-Ghazali or Fakhr Razi, & litereally 90% of Muslim scholars... Why are you sending all these quotes?! I'm not Wahabi. I'm Ash'ari, Ibn Taymyyah is the most staunch opponent of Ash'aris.
وهذه هي قائمة بأبرز أعلام الأمة الذين يطلق عليهم الناس لقب علماء الإسلام ، ويسترشدون بزمانهم وما قدموه للبشرية هؤلاء العلماء تم قتلهم بصورة بشعه و تكفيرهم وحرق كتبهم وعلومهم على يد متحجري وداعميهم من الحكام :1-ابن المقفع : اتهم بالزندقة و قتل بعدها على يد سفيان بن معاوية حيث قام بصلبه و تقطيع لحمه قطعة قطعة و شيها في النار أمام ناظريه حتى مات . * المصدر : البداية و النهاية لابن كثير( 96/10) .
- LOL! Sufyan killed Ibn Muqafaa because the latter bullied him badly, eventually he had enough & took revenge. Ibn Muqafaa is an Arab literary legend, LOL!
2-الفارابي : من أكبر الفلاسفة و أتهم أنه "أشدهم إلحاداً وإعراضاً كان يفضل الفيلسوف على النبي و يقول بقدم العالم و يكذب الأنبياء و له في ذلك مقالات في إنكار البعث و السمعيات و حتى ابن سينا على إلحاده كان خيراً منه .*المصدر : المنقذ من الضلال : ص 98 + البداية و النهاية : 224/11 + إغاثة اللهفان : 601/2
- Over-sensationalism! Al-Farabi is hugely influential in Islamic History, he was universally called THE SECOND MASTER (Aristotle being the first) in the Muslim world, & is taught today. He died at 80, his tomb is still visited today. He was a devout Muslim, with emphasis on spirituality & love of God.
. 3-ابن سينا : اتهم أنه (إمام الملاحدة فلسفي النحلة ضال مضل من القرامطة الباطنية كافر بالله و ملائكته و كتبه و رسله و اليوم الآخر و له من الضلالات و الكفريات ما تنشق له السماوات .*المصدر : المنقذ من الضلال : ص 98 + البداية و النهاية : 42/12 + سير أعلام النبلاء : 531/1 - 539
- What is this nonsense! Ibn Sina was Hanafi in madhhab, he is arguably more influential than Farabi, for his larger scope. Imam Fakhr Razi literally has a commentary on every single work of Ibn Sina, including a 20-volume commentary on Shifa, & a 10-volume commentary on Qanon. I have many of Ibn Sina's books. He was a pious Muslim, who fasted days & prayed nights, he died in sickness. His tomb is in Iran, very popular destination.
4-أبو العلاء المعري : اتهم أنه (مشهور بالزندقة على طريقة البراهمة الفلاسفة و في أشعاره ما يدل على إلحاده و انحلاله من الدين ، ذكر بن الجوزي أنه رأى له كتاباً سماه " الفصول و الغايات في معارضة الصور و الآيات " على حروف المعجم و قبائحه كثيرة .* المصدر : المنتظم 148/8 + البداية و النهاية : 72/12 .
- Maari is the most celebrated poet of the 5th century, he was so good he got too arrogant for a while & apostatized, though that didn't last long. He served in the Egyptian court, & died of old age in his bed.
5-أبو بكر الرازي : اتهم أنه "من كبار الزنادقة الملاحدة يقول بالقدماء الخمسة الموافق لمذهب الحرائيين الصابئة و هي الرب والنفس و المادة و الدهر و الفضاء و هو يفوق كفر الفلاسفة القائلين بقدم الأفلاك و صنف في مذهبه هذا و نصره و زندقته مشهورة "*المصدر : در التعارض : 346/9 + مع منهاج السنة : 209/1 + مجموع الفتاوى : 304/6
- Abu Bakr Razi is among the trio-diety doctors of Islamic History, along with Ibn Sina & Zahrawi. He became a deist, but repented towards the end of his life, & died a devout Muslim in peace. I read his debate with the other Razi (Abu Hatim).
-6 يعقوب بن اسحاق (الكندي ) : فيلسوف من أوائل الفلاسفة المسلمين "منجم ضال متهم في دينه كإخوانه الفلاسفة بلغ من ضلاله أنه أنكر الوحي و حاول معارضة القرآن بكلامه . "*المصدر : لسان الميزان : 373/6 + مقدمة ابن خلدون : 331 + مجموع الفتاوى : 186/9
- Yes, Ibn Taymyah hates his guts, but you know what? He still uses his arguments extensively. LOL! Al-Kindi is the greatest Muslim philosopher, as the Father of Islamic Philosophy. Sadly, much of his works are lost.
-7 ابن النديم : كان كما اتهمه البعض أنه "رافضي معتزلي و قال فيه بن حجر العسقلاني : أن لابن النديم مصنف " فهرست العلماء " ينادي على من صنفه بالاعتزال و الزيغ .* المصدر : لسان الميزان : 83/5
- He is Shiai, yes. Still very authoritative in his field.
8-ابن طفيل : اتهم أنه (من أئمة ملاحدة عصره من الفلاسفة يقول بقدم العالم و غير ذلك من أقوال الملاحدة .*المصدر : درء التعارض : 11/1 ، 56/6
- Yet, he was the chief scholar of the Caliph's court. LOL!
9- ابن الهيثم : التهمة="من الملاحدة الخارجين عن دين الإسلام من أقران ابن سينا علماً و سفهاً و إلحاداً و ضلالاً كان في دولة العبيديين الزنادقة كان كأمثاله من الفلاسفة يقول بقدم العالم و غيره من الكفريات .* المصدر : درء التعارض : 281/2 + في تاريخ الفلاسفة : ص 270 + فتاوى شيخ الإسلام : 135/35 .
- Ibn Haytham is Ash'ari, of course Ibn Taymyyah will insult him... Ibn Haytham is the greatest scientist of Islamic History, alongside al-Biruni. He is the man who broke Natural Philosophy to replace with Natural Science, & the father of Optics, Calculus & the Scientific Method.
10- الطوسي : وتهمته من هؤلاء المتطرفين أنه "نصير الكفر والشرك و الإلحاد فيلسوف ملحد ضال مضل كان وزيراً لهولاكو و هو الذي أشار عليه بقتل الخليفة و المسلمين و استبقاء الفلاسفة والملحدين و حاول أن يجعل كتاب " الإشارات " لابن سينا بدلاً من القرآن و فتح مدارس للتنجيم و الفلسفة و إلحاده عظيم . "* المصدر : درء التعارض : 67/5 + البداية و النهاية : 267/13 + إغاثة اللهفان : 601/2 .
- Tusi is one of the major astronomers of Islamic History, the one to solve the problem of ellipses which Ptolemy couldn't solve, & the second father of Trigonometry after al-Marwazi.
11-الجاحظ : واتهم أنه (كان سيء المخبر رديء الاعتقاد تنسب إليه البدع و الضلالات و ربما جاز به بعضهم إلى الانحلال وحكى الخطيب بسنده أنه كان لا يصلي و رمي بالزندقة )* المصدر : البداية و النهاية : 19/11
- LMAO! Jahiz is literally the most prominent author in the history of Arabic literature... I read some of his books.
12-عباس بن فرناس : فيلسوف موسيقي مغنٍ منجم نسب إليه السحر و الكيمياء و كثر عليه الطعن في دينه و اتهم في عقيدته و رمي بالزندقة و كان بالإضافة إلى ذلك شاعراً بذيئاً في شعره مولعاً بالغناء و الموسيقى-على ما اتهموه . * *المصدر : المقتبس من أهل الأندلس : ص 279 + نفح الطيب : 348/4
- Abbas Ibn Farnas is a hero, he was a genius engineer , he flew the first aircraft!
13-ابن رشد : اتهم من المتطرفين الماضويين أنه (فيلسوف ضال ملحد يقول بأن الأنبياء يخيلون للناس خلاف الواقع و يقول بقدم العالم و ينكر البعث و حاول التوفيق بين الشريعة و فلسفة أرسطو في كتابيه " فصل المقال " و " مناهج الملة " و هو في موافقته لأرسطو و تعظيمه له و لشيعته أعظم من موافقة بن سينا وتعظيمه له و قد انتصر للفلاسفة الملاحدة في " تهافت التهافت " و يعتبر من باطنية الفلاسفة و إلحادياته مشهورة . )*المصدر : سير أعلام النبلاء : 307/21 + درء التعارض : 11/1 – 127 – 152
- Funny how Ibn Taymyyah shits on Ibn Rushd, yet he is his most quoted source in that book.
14- محمد بن الشاكر : وتهمته (فيلسوف زنديق اشتغل بالموسيقى و التنجيم من الذين ترجموا كتب اليونان و أبوه موسى بن شاكر و أخواه أحمد و الحسن منجمون فلاسفة أيضاً )*المصدر : سير أعلام الأعلام : 117/7
- I don't know this person
15-ثابت بن قرة : واتهم كما غيره أنه (صابئ كافر فيلسوف ملحد منجم و هو و ابنه إبراهيم بن ثابت و حفيده ثابت بن سنان ماتوا على ضلالهم . )* المصدر : سير أعلام النبلاء : 485/13 + البداية و النهاية : 85/11
- Thabit is a one of the 4 Pillars of Mathematics known in early Islam, (alongside al-Khawarizmi)... but he was Sufi, so that's not acceptable for Ibn Taymmyah.
- Seriously what is the point of this dumb post, a list of some of the greatest Muslim intellectuals & Ibn Taymyyah's disapproval? Why should I care? Ibn Taymyyah, in terms of qualification (except in Fiqh) does not hold a candle to any of them in their fields.
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@Lunar108
you know that khadijah was a businesswoman and owned a caravan before muhammad married her ?
- Not a caravan, a share. Hind Bint Utbah was a wealthy woman under her father too, when he died, she become destitute, & would steal from her husband Abu Sufyan to feed herself. Khadijah's father was a wealthy man, & she is twice widowed, both her previous husbands were affluent as well. Wealth accumulated in her possession, because her father & her husbands chose to grant it to her. Case in point, Khadijah is the only such woman known in Quraysh.
isn't this prove that women weren't oppressed back before islam ,
- Even if Khadijah was the queen of Arabia, it won't change the fact that women had virtually no rights then. One woman does not represent all women.
it's one supported by muslims themselves unless khadijah was oppressed back then too and didn't own a caravan and wasn't a rich businesswoman , an example of very successful woman in the times of which you claim that women were oppressed by men your claims -of women being oppressed back then is destroyed by her existence.
- Dude, what are you blabbering about?! More so, why are you acting so shocked? All of this & more was happening in the West not even a century ago, let alone Arabia 15 centuries ago. Women gained divorce rights in Italy late 80s, & only gained full property rights in France in 1939! Shortly before that they couldn't vote. Up until a century ago, women were barred from attending higher education. Heck, women were sold by their own husbands in Britain up until the 1880s when it was banned. Back then, they didn't have even have property rights or inheritance rights. Does that mean there were no wealthy British women? There were, albeit rare.
you claim that women were oppressed and weren't given any rights until muhammad came and gave them their rights , provide evidence supporting your claim of women being oppressed
- What rights were they given...? Property rights? No. Inheritance rights? No. Consensual marriage rights? No. Divorce rights? No. Education rights? No. Protection rights? No... these weren't given to 19th century Europeans, let alone 7th century Arabia. In face, none of these rights were granted to pre-Islamic Women. Period.
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@Lunar108
- The BOP is on you, you claimed 50% similarity. Show me a single example of that.
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@Lunar108
the very convenient claim of I forgot where I read it , just tell me you made that up no need to spin tall tales about itI also had evidence claiming that more than 50% of the stories quran stories were mentioned in the bible and tulmod too
- Show me one.
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He cannot support anything he says if he means to suggest that women have equal rights in Islam, that is the truth of it.
- You have it backwards buddy. LOL!
However, I am genuinely afraid to mess with this religion so I'll shut up for now. I am serious, it is not a joke how violent they will get if they know who speaks against them.
- We watch crime shows, there is no nation more violent than yours. It's unbelievable.
What I will do is just post this, regarding women and Islam.
- Why don't you share those thoughts in a formal debate?
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@Lunar108
1. a woman is given half the inherence of that of a man
- No such thing! The case is among full-siblings, where the full-sister gets half the inheritance of the full-brother. For obvious reasons, the brother is responsible for the expenses, whereas the sister isn't! It isn't even the case for half-siblings. In fact, women get more inheritance shares both in scale & scope; in scale, 80% of share combinations belong to woman; & in scope, a lot more female kinship relations have a right to inheritance than male kinship relations.
2. can women marry four men too ?
- No. That's not an object of justice or dignity, LOL!
3. can women divorce her husband in islam? the answer is yes but is it as easy as when her husband want to divorce her the answer is no
- Nonsense! It's not easy either way, divorce is discouraged in Sharia.
4.Allah's Messenger said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning."
- Yes, unless the wife has a valid excuse, such as for medical or physiological reasons. He (pbuh) also said, "it is ample crime for a man to neglect who he responsible for" [as in the expenses for his family]– "The most perfect man in his faith among the believers is the one whose behavior is most excellent; and the best of you are those who are the best to their wives.". There is no individualism in Marriage. A marriage contract in Sharia is done with the prerequisite of sexual relations & security, material & emotional. There is no sense to the Marriage Institution without Intercourse.
6.The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "A woman should not fast (optional fasts) except with her husband's permission if he is at home (staying with her).
- In case he wishes to have intercourse with her, yes. I don't see you complaining about the husband compelled to provide for his wife?
this is what I hate about Muslims they have claims without any evidence , when ask them to provide evidence they tell you to search for it
- I'm not telling secrets. This stuff is known! Maybe you'll see your sources in a formal debate.
for all I know you could be making this up and spinning tall tales
- I see how you could think that, because that's all you do.
funny that this is coming from you , when you've yet to provide any evidence supporting your claims
- Am I hearing an echo...
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@Lunar108
and I would love to see where did this estimation came from , the source , the book mentioning it, the study mentioning it ?
- I've read too many books to know where that's from. Maybe I'd be more eager to look if in w formal debate. You haven't done the exercise I asked.
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In order to avoid discussing where I myself have or have not visited, I will say that I can guarantee you with absolute certainty that in a bookstore in any Islamic nation not one single book in any store is anti-Islam unless it is neutrally against religion and even then it will not make the shelves most likely.
- Don't be too sure... Christians always need their Islam-hating fix, & they will get it. More than 5% of Middle East population is Christian... do the math.
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@Lunar108
who did omar took the holy land of Jerusalem from ?
- Sigh... Here we go, a 1/3rd of the Middle East was under Roman control, a 1/3rd under Sassanid control (Persian), & 1/3rd under Arab control.
the link was provided by you , and it seems like you really hate america
- Not really. I hate injustice.
, not that I care but I would love to see evidence supporting those empty claims of yours , that would really help
- Which claims...? The one who keeps making claims right & left without even knowing the first thing about the subject is you buddy.
they were his very own clan and his direct relatives
- They weren't. Quraysh is 14,000 people. His direct relatives in the town are less than 10... your point? His own uncle Abu Lahab would follow the Prophet (pbuh) in his preaching calling him insane so people run from him, & would put twigs in front of his door so he that he gets injured when he comes out... & all sorts of abuse.
, also all those claims of muhammad getting tortured , maimed , burned , pillaged ,,,,,,,,,,,,etc came from muhammad -very unreliable
- Over 2300 companions report over 50,000 accounts of close to 21,000 unique event of the beloved Prophet (pbuh)'s life. He wasn't maimed or burned, or killed (obviously) but his companions were. He suffered the other stuff though.
muhammad and crying treesThe Prophet (ﷺ) used to stand by a tree or a date-palm on Friday. Then an Ansari woman or man said. "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Shall we make a pulpit for you?" He replied, "If you wish." So they made a pulpit for him and when it was Friday, he proceeded towards the pulpit (for delivering the sermon). The datepalm cried like a child! The Prophet (ﷺ) descended (the pulpit) and embraced it while it continued moaning like a child being quietened. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "It was crying for (missing) what it used to hear of religious knowledge given near to it."
- This story is reported by 17 of the beloved Prophet (pbuh)'s companions, through over 390 chains of narration. Your point?
food talkingWe used to consider miracles as Allah's Blessings, but you people consider them to be a warning. Once we were with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a journey, and we ran short of water. He said, "Bring the water remaining with you." The people brought a utensil containing a little water. He placed his hand in it and said, "Come to the blessed water, and the Blessing is from Allah." I saw the water flowing from among the fingers of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) , and no doubt, we heard the meal glorifying Allah, when it was being eaten (by him).
- This is also reported by 17 of his companions, through over 420 chains of narration. So?
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@Lunar108
you claim so but have yet to provide any evidence supporting your claimwhich is women back then were oppressed
- I'm not your nanny, find out for yourself. Open a book, ask Google... This seems to be your last resort when you got nothing else to say! If you don't know basic things about the subject, why do you have opinions about it?
Women were very oppressed back then, however he is extremely wrong if he thinks Islam liberated them.
- Go on, elaborate. Claims are easy to make.
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@Lunar108
how did khadijah came to own that business if women back then didn't have those rights ?
– Refer to: a woman could only own property if with the permission of her father or husband. They could not inherit, unless no other males exist. How come you don't know basic things about Arab History & claim to know Arabic. LOL!
I see that I've read nothing about Confucianism
- Indeed. Try next time.
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@Lunar108
a person hears about islam and watches a video explaining that islam mentioned how the embryo develops and it's stages and how people 1500 years ago shouldn't have known that , they decide to join islamwhile being totally not aware that it's totally wrong the embryo doesn't start as a clot of blood then a leech then it becomes bones before the bones are covered with flesh .the person judgement of joining islam is the outcome of a lie , the truth/or lack of the truth effected that person into joining islam- Imagine a person hearing that Islam mentioned that the embryo starts as a clot of blood then a leech then it becomes bones before the bones are covered with flesh, then decides to leave Islam, while being totally not aware that it's totally wrong, Islam did not mention that.
1.A number of verses collectively demonstrate a belief that the earliest, nutfah stage of development is made of semen, perhaps mixed with a female fluid, which is placed in the womb for a known term, and where it undergoes various stages of development (as also taught by Galen and in the Jewish Talmud).
- HAHAHAHA! LOL! Ahem, Yeah, NOPE. This dumb nonsense only works with those who have not read Galen, unfortunately for you I have. Galen says no such things. Galen's theory is basically this: the Soul penetrates the sperm, it gives it life. Life is fire, which gives heat to the fetus, that is the blood clot (heart). The blood vessels branch out indefinitely, the further they are from the core (heart) the colder they get, therefore they cool down & transform into muscles, & bones...etc. I've seen this farce all over the internet, whoever made up these lies has done a huge disservice to Galen & the Quran.
See this article for the most comprehensive explanation and evidence. Furthermore, there is no sign that the author of the Quran was aware of the female egg (ovum).
- False. It is mentioned in the Hadith.
In reality, a single sperm cell penetrates and fuses with the female ovum. This fertilised egg, called a zygote, is then pushed down the fallopian tube for a few days. On the way, cell division begins, and this multi-celled cluster, now called a blastocyst, implants in the uterus (womb).
- Also mentioned in the Hadith, in overview of course. [meeting of the female egg & male sperm, that is]
2.The embryo is then said to be congealed blood. All the classical tafsirs (exegetical commentaries) understood the meaning of 'alaqah to be blood or congealed blood, and clotted blood is a definition of the word in classical Arabic dictionaries. Regardless of alternative meanings for this Arabic word, it does not make sense to interpret a word whose main definitions include an explicit biological meaning (clotted blood) in a description of a biological process (embryology); certainly, from the point of divine authorship of the Qur'an, such imprecise meaning would throw into doubt the Qur'an's claim to be "clear." The choice of word now causes a well justified suspicion of inaccuracy, and for centuries misled people into thinking that the embryo is at one stage congealed blood (an actual embryo is at no point blood or a clot of blood). Similarly, again from the divine authorship and clarity perspective, for the same reason it would not make sense to use this word while intending blood clot as a mere visual analogy.
- This is what we call an Ad Hoc argument. It's a logical fallacy. Regardless, Alaqah literally means leech. Blood-clot is an allegorical meaning for it, because a full leech looks like a blood clot (after absorbing so much of it). Yet, here you are claiming to know Arabic. Isn't that funny!
3.The Quran claims that bones are formed before being clothed with flesh. In fact cartilage models of the bones start to form at the same time as and in parallel with surrounding muscles, and this cartilage is literally replaced with bone.
- This is a dumb argument. First of all, there is no "then" (ثم), there is "thereupon" (ف) [as in, with it though immediately after it]. Second of all, the verse is not talking about the formation of the muscles is it? It's talking about the 'clothing', which assumes there is already flesh there to begin with. Finally, indeed tendons form shorty after bones to attach the flesh to the bone, thus forming a muscle. That is clothing. Hence, the verse. Nuff said!
The author of the Quran described a sequence of stages, which when examined without the false definitions and arbitrary assumptions made by apologists, clearly has no resemblance to the actual development process of a child in the womb, according to critics.
- Question, from all the terminology of the Arabic language, from all the related vocabulary used by the Arabs at the time, from all the various embryo-related theories existing at the time, why opt otherwise & chose those specific words in that specific order with that specific description to somehow conform to reality which won't be observed until 13 centuries later?
Someone with a modern, scientific knowledge of embryology can instead marvel at the exquisite complexity that results from a process of co-ordinated cell differentiation and signaling, encoded in our genetic instruction set by millions of years of evolution, and devoid of any apparent divine design.
- False dillema blahblah... meh
the story of muhammad splitting the moon is very famous and muslims claim that nasa mentioned that along with the disgrace of discovering that nasa never mentioned that is well known
- The story of Moon-splitting is reported sometimes as a splitting & sometimes as an eclipse. Although, this incident is reported by several companions, most scholars of Hadith do not consider it Mutawatir. Therefore, a Muslim has the choice to believe it or not. As for the verse "The Hour has come near, and the moon has split", there is a difference of opinion regarding wether this has occurred or not. Some say it has occurred, bringing the Moon-splitting story as evidence. Some say it has not occurred, relying on the context - i.e it's a future event near the end of time.
- Those who try to reconcile all these reports argue, since the event is reported by many companions, it must have happened. However, the conflicting reports on whether there was a splitting or an eclipse make it hard to harmonize. The most plausible explanation is that it was a Moon occultation, albeit a rare event, for it can be described by an observer as both an eclipse or a splitting, hence the conflicting reports. As to the verse, regardless whether this occultation can count as Moon-splitting occurrence, the end of time will see everything wrecked & shattered, Moon included.
the story of al isra and al maarij is also very famous and how muhammad went to outer space on the back of al buraq , a donkey with wings is mentioned
- No donkeys with wings! LOL! This is a miracle, the belief in which comes after believing in the Prophethood of Muhammed (pbuh). This argument is moot.
very funny since your religion claims that women can give birth in 6 months
- They actually can. In fact, 6 months is the gestational limit of viability in case you didn't know.
, you're yet to point towards where max/maximum is mentioned in any of those verses as you claimed in your previous comment
- If you're asking, then you don't know Arabic.
and it's 10 sets of four weeks or 40 weeks and not 6 months or 26.0715 weeks
- You're trying too hard & failing spectacularly! If you're so confident, why not have a formal debate!
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@Lunar108
I'm not running away
- Where the debate at then?
an you've yet to provide any evidence that those stories didn't exist in islam because muhammad went with the caravan
- Wut?
هو ورقة بن نوفل بن أسد بن عبد العزى بن قصي، وهو ابن عم خديجة بنت خويلد، زوجة النبي محمد حيث أن والده نوفل بن أسد هو أخ والدها خويلد بن أسد.
- What's up with the lineage?
christianity was already established in mecca and even jews lived around there so it's no wonder that muhammad copied many stories from both the bible and tulmod
- None of this is true. Not because it comes out of your mouth, somehow magically it becomes true! There were no Jews settlement in Mecca, or Christian. Jewish settlements in Arabia are known (Yathrib, Khaybar, Sanaa..), so were Christian settlements (Najran, Dawmat Jundal...).
I also forgot to mention the story of Cain and Abel
- The Bible itself has multiple versions of that story... LOL!
I would love to see any evidence supporting the claim which you've made about the stories from the bible and tulmod being less than 6*%
- This questions shows that you have no effing clue what you're talking about. If you even know a little about the Biblical stories & the Quranic stories you wouldn't have asked that. LOL! Regardless, this is not my claim, it's the estimate of those in the field. Why don't you do the exercise yourself. Find me the story in the Quran which looks like the story in the Bible, & see how much similarity they share. Have at it.
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@Lunar108
I see that've not read about Confucianism it came long before christianity and Islam and gave both women and men their rights and responsibilities , a very long time before both islam and christianity like about 551–479 BC
- Sure! Namely, it gave the woman the responsibility to be the Yin (evil) sub-human in the possession of her husband. Is you dense or smth'?
what do you say about khadijah the first wife of muhammad she was a woman a businesswoman , she owned a caravan long before marrying muhammad or muhammad having his midlife crisis ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, cough I mean started his own religion
- Yet, Khadijah required a trustworthy man to run her business, for no Arab will deal with a woman. Pre-Islamic Arab women were literal possessions to their husbands, they can be sold to other men or shared. Like it was in Europe up to the late 19th century. A woman could only own property if with the permission of her father or husband. Upon the men's death, his wives were inherited by his sons. They had no political or commercial place whatsoever. Female infanticide was the norm, if the first born is a girl, they considered her a bad omen that she had to be buried. Muhammed (pbuh)'s second successor Umar (raa) buried his first daughter alive before he became Muslim. Women had no ability to consent, for or against marriage. If her father wishes, he can marry her at whim or keep her unwed for life. They could not inherit, unless no other males exist. The could not initiate divorce no matter the circumstances. A murder of a woman, contrary to a man, did not warrant any retribution or blood-money, unless the perpetrator is a woman herself... Yeah, so much for rights... lol!
isn't this proof enough that women back then had rights at least far more then the claims of muhammad back then
- You're doing the 'stick my head in the sand' thing again, it's getting old! Muhammed (pbuh) was to first to:
1. Explicitly state the equitability of Men & Women.
2. Grant property rights to women equally as men, regardless of status or origin. This only attained in the West very recently, by 1939 in France for example.
3. Guarantee inheritance rights to women, not by virtue of nobility or testament, but an entitlement for all.
4. Establish mutual consent in marriage, from both the man & the woman, on the basis of 'offer & acceptance' – hence the adoption by the West later.
5. Grant divorce initiative to the woman, not just the man -as was the case in ancient times, & up till very recently in the West (just decades ago).
6. Prohibit the killing of women in war in any circumstance (along with children, elderly, monks, peasants, slaves...etc). This is still not the case in any Western Law, unfortunately.
7. Enjoined education on women along with men, "seeking knowledge is an obligation on every Muslim -and Muslimah". Just over a century ago, women were barred from attending university in Europe...
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@Lunar108
you don't understand what Communism is
- I do, but I'm sure you don't. Still, this does not answer my objection. Nice try!
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@Lunar108
this is what islam have done to the arabs every time someone critcise or satire islam
- The greatness of the Arabs is all thanks to Islam, & nothing else. The Arabs founded 3 of the greatest empires that ever existed, each far larger & more populous than the Roman Empire. The Abbasid Caliphate at its greatest extend (vassal states included) was larger than Russia (+20M km2) & comprised more than 40% global population & more than 70% its economy. The Arab race is hands down the most successful race in Human History (with the Han race a close second), thanks to Islam.
they get accused of blasphemy and they get put to death if not physically then socially and now using islamophobia and hating of islam they are trying to make everyone shut up .
- If you criticize the Jews or the Holocaust in the West you get put to death, if not physically, or financially, then socially for sure.
islam have caused many problems in the world ironically most of them are plaguing muslims
- I expect something like this from someone who doesn't know the first thing about History like you. Islam brought Enlightenment to the World, in elevated Humanity in every aspect of life, personal, private, public & social. Muslims dominated the economic (+50% GDP), scientific, literary, artistic, legislative, political & military global spheres for 10 centuries. The average income of the Abbasid empire at its peak in the 9th century would not be reached by France, the jewel of Europe, until early 1900s. Harun Rashid's tax revenue was at least 50 times (YES 50) that of Louis XIV at the height of French prosperity. Just back in the 1700s, the Ottoman's average income level was 5 times higher than that of France. Muslims invented Natural Science & Social Science. Much of what is today known as Classical Physics (such as the laws of motion, gravity, force, momentum, heliocentric model...etc) is a Muslim invention. They also invented Chemistry, modern Surgery, modern Medicine & Veterinary science. They invented the University & the Hospital. They invented linguistic theory & the dictionary. Islamic Law hugely influenced both Common Law & Civil Law. For instance, animal rights in Europe, freedom of religion, woman's rights...etc, were all inspired from Muslims. All Scholastic, Renaissance, & Enlightenment thinkers have either studied under Muslims or studied their books. Such as Berkeley, Newton, Hume, Aquinas, Hobbs, Descartes, Rousseau...etc.
, and when anybody/anyone tries to address those problems they accuse them of islamophobia or hating muslims
- Problems, such as?
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@Lunar108
introducing a course challenging Secular Liberal Capitalism ?do I even need to introduce thatan entire party exist in america which stands against Capitalism including the current american president
- That doesn't sound like anything I asked. Since you seem to be a little slow on the uptake, allow me to help. A course which challenges a Secular Liberal Capitalist worldview would be something like, Chinese Communism (from the Chinese perspective of course), or Intelligent Design (from their perspective), or Sharia (from an Islamic perspective of course)...etc.
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Not really, they shoot you down if you dare.
- We are not the US government! Have you ever visited an Islam isle in a bookstore? About 5% are Islamic, the other 95% are anti-Islamic. LOL!
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@Lunar108
- Truth can be attained through empirical or demonstrative ways, through the various reasoning modes, deductive or inductive. For instance, structural statements (such as mathematics or philosophical conclusions) require deductive demonstration; scientific hypotheses require abductive validation; historical events require probabilistic evaluation (of testimonies for example); moral claims require defeasible reasoning or analogical analysis...etc.
I am not asking you about the truth , I am asking you how do we judge religion ? what parameters should we use ?what does the truth have to do with judging religion ?
- What's the difference?! If Religion makes claims about Nature, then they must be empirically verified. If Religion makes claims about historical events, then they must be evaluated as such. If Religion makes claims about philosophical truths, thus must be demonstrated. If Religion makes moral claims, then their value & consistency must be checked...etc.
and let me ask you what is theprobabilistic evaluationof a man living in the iron age , in the middle of a desert 1500 years ago , getting to outer space and beyond (outside our universe) and then getting back ?
- Same as it is today.
and what is theprobabilistic evaluationof the moon getting cut into two halves because a man living 1500 years ago prayed to his godand NOT a single testimony about that existing in any country or group of people who lived back then other than his followers ?
- Pretty low, your point?
do women give birth in 6 months ?"The quran provides that the length of a normal gestation (pregnancy) is six months
- No. You're going in circles.
(Luqman 31:14; al-Baqarah 2:233; al-Ahqaf 46:15). Luqman 31:14 and al-Baqarah 2:233 provide a nursing period of 24 months. Al-Ahqaf 46:15 provides a total of 30 months for both gestation and nursing combined. This leaves only six months for the period of gestation .correct me if I am wrong but they need 10 sets of four weeks to give birth
- Unless gestation period changed the past 14 centuries, it was still 9 months back then too. Unless you're suggesting Arabs then gave birth to newborn corpses, which I doubt, because their descendants are alive today. Or maybe, only the Prophet (pbuh) gave birth to 6 months old fetuses... You are either dumb as a rock or just insane!
a person hears about islam and watches a video explaining that islam mentioned how the embryo develops and it's stages and how people 1500 years ago shouldn't have known that , they decide to join islamwhile being totally not aware that it's totally wrong the embryo doesn't start as a clot of blood then a leech then it becomes bones before the bones are covered with flesh .the person judgement of joining islam is the outcome of a lie , the truth/or lack of the truth effected that person into joining islam
- Imagine a person hearing that Islam mentioned that the embryo starts as a clot of blood then a leech then it becomes bones before the bones are covered with flesh, then decides to leave Islam, while being totally not aware that it's totally wrong, Islam did not mention that.
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@Lunar108
- Use your words. Or have a formal debate with me, stop running!
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