Yassine

Your claim is that the Koran is more accurately preserved than any other book.

I am not even going to question that it has been accurately preserved. I am questioning your stupid belief, that if I wrote a book 10 minutes ago and have it in front of me, that the Koran is somehow better preserved than that. 

Literally impossible. 

I knew this would get retarded fast. We have the original manuscript still. 

She literally typed them up.

I could ask the same questions

The original copy of her book exists and you can look at it and compare it with the copy you bought at Barnes and Noble

What do you think of the Kalam Cosmological argument? 

I would debate yassine about ill directed  prayer. ..  

I say a prayer / or praise prayed at 180 ° ( OFF ) mecca does exactly the same as prayer directly directed at mecca . 

No difference. 

Picture a prayer to allah narrowly missing mecca . 

Like just missing.  

Democracy is a terrible government system

God Is (exists)

Let's get these two on the road. Shall I initiate them? 

Ramshutu gets that prize, since he has reserved my 101st debate.  But I'm sure we can debate something in the near future, provided you better demonstrate a capacity to argue in good faith.

Another dodge.  Are you standing by your claim that you have evidence that Mohammad flew to heaven on a winged horse?  Yes or no?

No.  The commentators didn't pretend to understand the meaning of that essentially Christian passage, you did.  Take good faith responsibility for the claims you make here, please.  No post-facto blaming of your sources shall earn you any credit with me.

I see.  I call your conception of benefiting from another man's pain childishly barbaric and you call me a child right back.  I'm rubber, you're glue.  Good argument.  I guess you concede the barbaric part.

You reply with examples of necessary and voluntary pain (childbirth, surgery).  Stay on point- prove that the infliction of unnecessary pain on others is a compassionate act or concede the point that a compassionate God would not manufacture eternal suffering and so a realm of eternal suffering disproves a compassionate God.

Hell is the infliction of unnecessary punishment for forever and so by definition, inherently uncompassionate, unmerciful, and unforgiving- traits I find unworthy of any god.

traits I find unworthy of any god.

That's perfectly clear.  You were quite mistaken when you claimed Dahmer was executed, you were quite mistaken when you claimed Dahmer's bludgeoning was compassionate.

COMPASSION (noun):Deep awareness of the unnecessary suffering of another, coupled with the wish to relieve it.

One cannot argue that when Allah inflicts eternal suffering on those who do not please him that he also has a wish to relieve that suffering because he is the sole source of that suffering, can relieve that suffering at will and yet continues to inflict that suffering. You can have hell or a compassionate god  but you can't have both.

That's no correction, the subject was the Christian God, remember?  Why do I identify as Catholic, Christian, etc.  Have you forgotten the topic that you initiated?

That's false, I am obviously speaking of all religions.

It has the exact words the author written, I. It contained in the original language

Why would I believe in the myth of Allah? 

I think,

Every practitioner 'is a Founder,

When they influence society around them,

'What a Religion 'is,

Changes with the people,

In my view,

Even with 'Science, one might take this view,

When individuals in past history spoke of Eastern or Western, science, medicine.

They spoke of different claims to knowledge, practices.

And in time, the claims to knowledge, practices, changed.

I believe that an American Citizen is an American Citizen,

I believe that someone 'not an American Citizen, is 'not an American Citizen.

Logically they possess different rights/abilities/privileges,

This does not mean that I think someone 'not an American Citizen, does not deserve rights/abilities/privileges.

It just changes what those rights/abilities/privileges 'are.

Similarly an American Citizen would have 'different rights/abilities/privileges, in 'another country.

I prefer to be an Atheist,

As well as a Nationalist.

Time and Distance are too far, for myself to recall 'exactly how I reached my current opinions.

Too many small steps, experiences, realizations, facts, built up, to recall easily.

Freefall 02527 July 23, 2014 (purrsia.com)

As for 'all, it's enough that from my perspective and experiences, I see discrepancies, that lead me to doubt certain claims in various religions.

I consider myself intellectually a Nihilist, yes.

Though in practice, in my humanity, underpinning habits,

Still I move, care, work towards ends.

"The founder's perspective supersedes all others." - Yassine, #89

What you say 'does remind me of the Bible,

As well as American Law, regarding the Constitution,

People value origins, tradition,

But 'still, I think people, groups, change.

Below is the part of the Bible I am reminded of.

2 Kings 22 NIV - The Book of the Law Found - Josiah was - Bible Gateway

The Book of the Law Found
22 Josiah was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem thirty-one years. His mother’s name was Jedidah daughter of Adaiah; she was from Bozkath. 2 He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and followed completely the ways of his father David, not turning aside to the right or to the left.
3 In the eighteenth year of his reign, King Josiah sent the secretary, Shaphan son of Azaliah, the son of Meshullam, to the temple of the Lord. He said: 4 “Go up to Hilkiah the high priest and have him get ready the money that has been brought into the temple of the Lord, which the doorkeepers have collected from the people. 5 Have them entrust it to the men appointed to supervise the work on the temple. And have these men pay the workers who repair the temple of the Lord— 6 the carpenters, the builders and the masons. Also have them purchase timber and dressed stone to repair the temple. 7 But they need not account for the money entrusted to them, because they are honest in their dealings.”
8 Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the Lord.” He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. 9 Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: “Your officials have paid out the money that was in the temple of the Lord and have entrusted it to the workers and supervisors at the temple.” 10 Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king.
11 When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. 12 He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Akbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: 13 “Go and inquire of the Lord for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the Lord’s anger that burns against us because those who have gone before us have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.”

Why don't you explain this. How is it better preserved than Atlas Shrugged?

No, because I already know what you will do. We will spend the entire debate, arguing over the definition of the word preserve, and I will win because I will use the Oxford dictionary to prove your definition was stupid the whole time. 

This will end up a semantics argument. I'll win, but the process will be annoying. 

I'd have to read more, to have a stronger opinion of 'claimed injustice.

I think it's difficult of Isms to stand apart from their practitioners,

If one speaks of a country, and it's practices, one speaks of generalities, percentages of 'more oftens,

A country of one generation, infrastructure, resources, is not the country of 'another generation, infrastructure, resources.

So the same,

Religion, or 'even individuals, if one separates their life into different pieces of time.

I think a country worth admiring by my own standards,

Would grant rights to individuals 'not of said country,

Human Rights/Privileges are valuable in my eyes, though artificial,

Due to the existence of empathy, logic.

That is not to say I think countries are wrong to prioritize their own people,

But to actively prey on, disregard any rights of 'other countries, comes off as monstrous.

My beliefs are driven by public records, facts, science, accounts, observation, logic, reason, as well as personal experiences.

Also reasons underlying and forgotten.

Though putting all these driving reasons together into a convincing document, is difficult without time and great effort.

I can speak casually about it,

But my casual talk will not be convincing, I think.

Casually,

I don't see God/s, the supernatural, evidence of anything after, or come from the after.

I see writings corrupted by individuals, time, and space.

Facts and claims that don't 'all stand up with time.

Of my claim of life coming from material and chance,

Science has records of life forms time way back,

Geography of tectonic plates and continents movements,

Higher than Heaven, one finds space, and the void.

Deeper than Hell, a molten core.

Though I use the phrasings Heaven and Hell to speak of shallow pop culture understandings, as they relate to religion.

Of morality, my view is tied to Nihilism, Existentialism.

Instead of expanding the subject, why not just present all of your hard, scientific evidence for the existence of winged horses in Seventh Century Arabia?

There are major differences among regions as well as among countries when it comes to government restrictions on religion. On average, restrictions are highest in the Middle East North Africa, where the median score for the 20 countries (4.9) is considerably higher than for the 35 countries in the Americas (1.0), the region with the lowest median score. The 51 Asian and Pacific countries have a median score in the middle range (3.3), but this masks enormous variability within this large region. Several of the more populous Asian and Pacific countries have high levels of government restrictions. Indeed, the nearly 20 countries in the region with very high or high government restrictions on religion – including Iran, Uzbekistan, China, Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Vietnam and India – account for more than half of the world’s population. On the other hand, some of the least restrictive governments are also found in the Asia-Pacific region; these include Japan, Taiwan and Australia.

Most objective analysis consistently ranks the Middle East as the least free region in the world for the practice of religion.

Christianity is an essentially humanist reaction to Old Testament Judaism- fewer giants and unicorns and burning bushes, more good Samaritans and golden rules.  Compare OT's  "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth [powers surpassing man's understanding] to John's "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.   [human language being a uniquely human ability- god reduced from universal superforce to the product of the human tongue].  More than any religion that preceded Jesus, Christianity was primarily concerned with how humans treated other humans and let stories of evil snakes and burning bushes recede to an older testament.

Likewise, I consider evil an entirely human artifact- there's no evidence of such corruption in the natural world.

LOL, that isn't history it's mythology. The same reason you think your god is a god, because other people have told you that down through the years that when you work with this being it's a god.

Personally don't like the word god I prefer the word deity. People have work with these beings for centuries so the relationships, ideas and rituals are already established. 

Preserved means word for word the same.

Even the iIlyad which predates the Koran is preserved LOL. 

I would be interested in this one

The Chinese communist state is superior to the Western democratic state

A lot of these topics are not sensible at all though.

For example, one of many examples

Atheism is unattainable

It's literally a belief system. You attain it, just by being atheist.

Also the Koran being the best preserved book. I could write a book tomorrow and it would by definition be better preserved than any book made prior to it, in history. 

I think of Islam as a religion which believes in the Abrahamic God,

The Religion is 'primarily in the Middle East

, which I view as 'currently 'overall having less Infrastructure/Tech/Modernization, than the West.

If people speak of individuals being stoned, then I view this as due to location, culture, more than Islam itself.

Only requires different time period, culture shift, for the West to stone people, Whether for Religion or Atheism.

Islam has various sects, adherents, thus it's more valuable for me to judge it on individual persons and individual group basis.

Same as other religions, or atheisms.

My position is driven by Truth, Nationalism, Tradition, Honor.

I prefer my own nation, my own tribe, people,

But that's no reason to deny the value of other's ideas.

No reason to dismiss their humanity, or one's obligation to other life forms.

I believe that there is no god/s,

No afterlife,

That life arose out of material existences workings, habits, chance and opportunity.

I believe that morality is a subjective construct, but that we are wired with preferences, These preferences are hard to deny, and as a game of chess already invested in, may as well follow one's creed.

No, I don't like how the debate is framed. I am willing to consider debates titled things such as 

1. Muhammed was not a prophet

It's a difficult thing to argue argue refined absurdities though. You would have similar difficulty arguing against obsessed 9/11 truthers. 

I'd rather pick a topic topic the sits outside of both of our comfort zones. Do you ever talk about anything non Islam related? Like for example things relating to work or money etc.

I predict that within 3 years some major Christian Televangelist is going to say that he has found that God is a myth and he is going to change his Church to service Humanism. And no, it won't be Jim Bakker.

@Topic

I think my mind on Islam remains unchanged.

I suppose if I took the time every X amount of time,

To state my opinion on various subjects,

I could read it back, and see how my answers change over time,

But I don't and in the gradual process of my mind,

I often miss changes in it.

Of Islam though, I still don't know much,

But even with much,

Likely I'll view it as I do other religions, ways of life, philosophies, movements.

For example. The turning the other cheek I mentioned thinking it was a command to be a door mat. The speech was about how to commit a non violent revolution, like grand did. The Roman's would only be allowed to smack people with their left hand, so by presenting your other cheek, they were forced to smack you with the incorrect hand. 

The same speech he says, if your enemy asks you to carry their belongings one mile, carry them 2, because Roman law said romans were only allowed to have the community they were occupying carry stuff for one mile.

With the camel and the eye of the needle. Jesus did not make up the phrase. A lot of rabbis before him used it, so I looked at the context those rabbis said it in. The rabbis meant it was hard and used it as a way to just help get the message across. 

Sorry, but that's absurd.  So you think that when Paul says in the previous sentence "Love is patient, love is kind, it keeps no records of wrongs, etc" Paul is telling the Corinthians to be kind to God?  to keep no record of God's wrongs against them?  No, sorry.  One of the most essential Christian passages and you've completely missed the mark.

You are dodging by answering a question with a question. 

Answer the question:  explain the compassion to be discovered in the creation of eternal suffering.

Explain the compassion of creating eternal paradise as a prize for winning a cruel game show called THIS MORTAL COIL.

And mainstream religion isn't weird?

Well no, not if you have a conditioned mindset.

A mindset that's prepared to accept old Middle Eastern folk tales as a reasonable hypothesis.

Whereas, it is clearly apparent that material development has moved on a tad since those days of ignorance,

But you just take this for granted, 

Yet you happily tap away at your device, when all that your omniscient saviours could achieve was tablets of stone.

And it's also clear that things are still developing, and therefore logical to suggest that material development will continue developing way way into the future,

Maybe with us, maybe without us.

And all this may or may not be purposeful....The jury is is still out, and will continue to be out for as long the appropriate knowledge remains undiscovered..

All that I do, is propose a reasonable purpose, which I refer to as the continuation of the universal sequence....Or the re-initiation of matter.

And the difference between you and I is,

I am a 21st century man trying to think ahead,

Whereas, you are a 21st century man who prefers to think backwards.

Of course there's still a 50/50 chance that everything is pointless.

We just don't know,

Which is probably just as well,

Otherwise the futility of internet religious forum arguments, wouldn't be quite so entertaining.

It's part of Norse myth. He doesn't have a hall in Germanic myth. There are several different afterlife places in Germanic and Norse mythology. The Viking were a small portion of worshipers. They also didn't go out and kill people for Odin. They hope to die in battle to go to Valhalla or Freya's Hall. She actually gets first pick of the war dead. They generally leave that out of all the movies.

This site was my first exposure to logical critique of my fundamentalist religious views. 

Here is the first things that pop to my mind:

• I have rejected my certainty of Christianity being true, in fact, I now view every religion as meaningless speculation without evidence
  

• My view of abortion, animal rights and morality in general have become more nuanced as I understand kantian and utilitarian ethics
  

• The indoctrination of PragerU has been eradicated from my mind;
  

• Political and economic issues have been brought to my attention, as well as opposing ideas to the ones I already knew
  

• At the moment I think of unquestionable certainty as mostly an illusion and of science as the logical and mathematical route to becoming near-certain.
  

These are a lot of things I have changed my mind about. Now I have been on this site a year and am 17 so it has affected me quite a lot.

A bit of both. As a kid I studied the bibble very hard. Reading it over and over, and taking it very literally. It affected me negatively for a while. Jesus says, it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than a rich person to go to heaven.

Unfortunately I am a genius, with great work ethic and the ability to easily climb social hierarchies. So I would apply for jobs that were bottom of the barrel and then get to a 6 figure position within a couple of years and then quit because I felt like having money would make me go to hell. 

I also took, turn the other cheek too seriously and allowed myself to be abused and to be a door mat.  I began to hate christianity. I thought at first, if God was real, certainly even me destroying myself is worth it, because following him is more important than earthly pleasures. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't force myself to believe though. Finally I accepted God was not real. 

I read something in a Bible that said, cast your bread among the water and it will return 3 fold. Without telling anybody I took a piece of bread and threw it in a toilet and flushed it. I shit you not, 3 days later, I went to the bathroom and 3 pieces of bread were floating in the toilet.  

Another time, I was in am accident and an angel came to me. He said that God Loves me and will take care of me. He comforted me. 

I brushed off these things as my mind playing tricks on me, but a few years ago, a belief just came over me. I can't explain it.

When I translate German to English, I don't do so based on my belief, I literally just swap the German words for english ones. I know German, Spanish and English. and I can tell you, you pretty much just swap words. It doesn't matter if I am translating religious work or political beliefs I disagree with. It's going to be the same translation either way. Facts are facts.

What makes me believe in God, is a feeling. I was a lifelong atheist, though I was raised in a Christian household. At about 37 I just started to believe. Like something was implanted in me. I had some spiritual things I experienced in the past as well, I tried to reason my way out of.

If you are asking, what it would take to make me Muslim, I'd have to know that Muhammad was not a mere cult leader. I would have to know, the man was sane, was honest and that his words really came from God.

I no longer believe in evolution now. 

The factors that contributed to the change were probably emotional/faith

Though I still don’t know how animals popped out of nothing. Is it like spontaneous generation?  

Here is the Pope assuring a bereaved boy that his non-believing father would be welcomed in heaven:  https://youtu.be/xL01jmT0MN4 I suppose that Francis is mostly OK with my conception of Catholicism and faith.

When Paul says (beautifully) :

For now we see through a glass, darkly;

but then face to face:

now I know in part;

but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three;

but the greatest of these is love.

Even Paul put love before faith.  

The correct interpretation is what we are after, not the spin of ideologues.

The jew you are speaking about loved the Koran

and was only interested in accuracy.

The mistakes I have seen pointed out by Muslims are things like "he sad man, when it should say everyone" Perhaps from non native English speakers that Don't know in the lot of contexts man means the same thing as "everyone ". Another criticism I read was another petty issue about the translator saying something along the lines of "don't doubt the koran" and they said it should say "no doubts within the Koran" which literally means the exact same thing, but the first sentence is easier to  understand.

These are stupid criticisms, tbh

Feel free to have whatever opinion you want. I happen to be an actual, honest to goodness ordained orthodox rabbi. I teach in a Jewish high school. I have a liberal arts degree from college (and multiple graduate degrees). I teach rhetoric. I teach textual interpretation. I teach orthodox Jewish views.

Your opinion really doesn't matter. If people want to know anything about Judaism, I hope they ask someone like me, who is an actual Jew, trained to discuss Judaism, and not someone like you who makes things up and guesses, hiding behind some arrogant sense of self.

I did not witness Moses part the Red Sea nor Muhammed's ascent to heaven nor Jesus' return from the dead and the testimonies I read of such events bear remarkable resemblance to hundreds of similar assertions in world literature that are easily dismissed as myth or fiction.

While I find the subject an interesting and worthwhile study, I try not to pretend I know for a fact those claims I don't or can't know for a fact.  I think the Sermon on the Mount is a terrific, concise ethical lesson to be admired.  I think Jesus' resurrection is unlikely but also unimportant to the value of that  lesson. I also suppose (without evidence) that the Jesus I read about in the Bible would have little problem with that outlook.

  I think Roman Catholicism and modern Western Christianity generally represents more of the philosophy of Paul and Augustine and rather misunderstands Jesus' thesis.

Because he was paid money and is an academic capable of the job. You could just as easily say Muslims hate the translation because it is the most accurate one

and gives away their plans

Fucking jews, am I right?

What is an atheist?

Well.....As defined for sure.

But ideology is a brain held data state which we can all share, and the differences are negligible.

It's output and actions that vary.

I don't accept the principles of naive religions....They're outdated.

So I look to now and the past for clues, in relation to what might occur in the future.

It's all only supposition, just as old religions once were.

And material evolution is  key.

The ongoing developmental process of matter from the universal beginning to a universal end.

We're now within a technological phase of material evolution.....A crossover phase perhaps, from the organically inspired to the Alternatively Inspired.

Maybe the GOD principle is that which will determine the outcome of a distant universal end phase.

And given the predicted time frame, who knows if we can hang on for that long.

And what's the purpose of the GOD principle?

So that everything can happen all over again.

I have. I usually don't admit it when it happens and just continue to argue, but you have changed my mind about a lot. 

The one thing that annoys me about you is you Don't give straight answers on fruits. Should being a homo be tolerated? My vote is no. You always dodge this yes or no question though.

I feel like you are here to spread a positive message about Islam, or at least what most westerners consider positive as opposed to having an honest discussion. 

Despite this holding back of honesty, I have found your words very informative and enlightening. 

Penguin makes an English version of the Koran that is pretty well translated. So accurately translated, that Muslims hate the penguin version. 

I hold those beliefs due to my interaction with various gods via meditation, shamanic journeying and ritual.

I believe all the gods we know of are distinct beings and that they can help us to improve ourselves and in return expect us to help others.

They also have knowledge of how spirit and the universe works that we don't.

Worship is done with prayers, offerings, ritual and works for others. Also tending to the Earth and spirits of the dead and land.

Yes I am actually a polytheist. Most of the gods I worship/ work with are Germanic or Norse. A few are outside that.