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@Lemming
I do not think society ends up,"A society of conflict, of double faced, two dealing, liars, who prioritize victory no matter the means, or other people." - #73If it lacks tax paid health care or tax paid optional higher education.
I think it makes a very easy sort of sense. Might grow on you, who knows.
Nice chat, Lemming.
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@Lemming
I don't think that a lack of tax paid optional higher education, or healthcare for all,Leads to anarchy.
It's extreme individualism. Especially where healthcare is concerned and the exorbitant fees you guys pay for it.
That ends up in a society exactly like you described in #73. You lose all sense of the word "fair" choosing instead for individual vying.
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@Lemming
And yet in earlier posts, you encourage affirmative action?
Well it's probably of some help to some poor people right? But I was mostly just remarking upon the absurdity of resenting someone a lifeline.
Where there are no base guarantees like healthcare and education, you get a society exactly like what you described in #73. That's what gives people something to honour. And that's how you get an actually fair society.
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@Lemming
Why not just help people in poverty?
I think that's a great idea. I think you could try free college and healthcare like just about every other first world country.
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@Lemming
Why not just help people in poverty?
You mean like free healthcare and college?
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@Lemming
Do you think black Americans should die in poverty without healthcare rather than maneuver AA?
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@Lemming
Well you did well enough with that second to last post. I'll take it.
Maybe reread my post and your response a couple more times.
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@Lemming
Now you're getting it.
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@Lemming
Because in a country with no free college or healthcare, it is a lifeline. And it's better to be resented than dead.
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@Greyparrot
You have no idea how much better it is for a POC to be born in America in 2022 vs being born in Ireland in 2022.
I have no idea why you're writing moronic shit at me.
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@Greyparrot
If black people can maneuver AA, they should. Your nation hasn't the first clue what fairness means.
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Selective Fair Behavior as a Function of Psychopathic Traits in a Subclinical Population: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.01604/full
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@bmdrocks21
Nothing is ever truly fair. It’s not fair some parents do meth while pregnant and permanently disadvantage their kids. It’s not fair some kids only have one parent.Striving for actual fairness is a waste of time. But making it illegal for companies and schools to racially discriminate is a step in the right direction. Enough of making a large portion of white and Asian kids second class citizens because others in the same demographic category tend to do well
What a load of nonsense. So only the sort of fairness that suits you.
There's no basis for an actually civilised discussion here, it's all just political maneuvering.
resentment
read:
I'd prefer you were dead.
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@bmdrocks21
But this thread is specifically addressing the way that allowing racially discriminatory policies fosters racial resentment and encourages racial scapegoating
So what? You're still trying for fairness. That's argument in bad faith.
Resenting someone a lifeline is pure nonsense.
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Because that's what it is: a lifeline. You're resenting someone their life.
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@bmdrocks21
I don’t wish to sound rude, but you don’t seem to have much of a grasp on how things work over here.
Between yours and thett's threads, I have a good idea. You're trying to leverage an idea of fairness where there is none. Any sensible fairness relies on base securities and opportunity.
I think AA is a half-assed idea too. It's just farcical to me for you to write about race relations where you're trying to strip a lifeline away from a poorer class.
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@Lemming
That reads a complete nothing of an article to me. Our colleges definitely have money. I've been to a few of them, across trade school and my degree. They're all super impressive campuses.
The rest is more or less positive. Sure, there's a culture around college too. But it's an open door for anyone to walk through.
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@bmdrocks21
This isn’t a question of poor or rich. It is race. A poor white person under this system would be rejected in favor of a rich black person. That’s how Affirmative Action works.
Why should anyone give a damn? Where blacks are poorer on average, why care for the poor white person? There's no fairness where a 0 in your bank account means no healthcare and no education and no chance.
Affirmative action might save black lives. You think your shitty little line of rhetoric will make them relinquish that benefit?
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@Lemming
Dublin is a fuck up because of a housing crisis. I got doctor buddies can barely afford to live in Dublin. It's the 8th most expensive place to rent in the world according to this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/most-expensive-cities-worldwide-to-rent-an-apartment-2019-5?r=US&IR=T#4-zurich-switzerland-22
I mean I can see why it fails in Dublin, but it's a sizable investment into every single person and it gets people through college. I agree that more could be done about Dublin.
There's no argument there for throwing out free college.
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@Greyparrot
You're just an eyesore of a human being tbh.
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@Greyparrot
You should take a deep dive into how bad people's lives were absolutely wrecked and fucked up beyond all belief when they suddenly won the lottery. Something to consider when calculating the actual costs of "free lunches"
Just shut up dude. You really are such a moron.
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Even if the college is free,Is the rest of life made free?Can someone dirt poor 'afford to go to college easily, even if 'college is free, there's the rest of life to live and pay for, housing, food, kids,Though maybe I underestimate how much the Irish give it's people?I don't think so though.
Free enough. College paid for. An allowance at about half the minimum wage as a baseline and grants besides.
Yes, you can walk into a college dirt poor and be afforded a time to study and walk out of that college with an education owed to you. I mean luxuries are for after when you're a contributing member of society, but you get your education. And it's one shot, you don't get to fuck around with it. But that's a people.
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@Greyparrot
That's a really stupid post, mate. It's very easy to choose for fairness and equal opportunity at least as a foundation. My country has done it. Yours hasn't. That's it.
In your country, the poor should eat the rich. Where you haven't chosen for fairness and equal opportunity, they have nothing to honour. You can write your shitty little internet posts until your heart disease renders your fingers inoperable, but it changes nothing. You have no arguments. All of your politics is in bad faith. You're just moving money around.
In Ireland, by guaranteeing education and healthcare, we have a people.
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@bmdrocks21
How so? If Americans have nothing to honor, what on earth do the Irish have?
A foundation of compassion, fairness and equal opportunity. That's what free college and healthcare buys you. Without it all of your arguments are in bad faith. You lot have no truth but a number in your bank account.
Your OP shites on about relations while trying to deprive a poorer people of a benefit. In my country, you might have a point. In yours to lose is to die.
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The problem with the United States of America is your people have nothing to honour.
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It's fight or die. Where the number in your bank account is your education and healthcare, you're not going to hear arguments which would diminish that number. You're pretending at civilised argument.
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He isn’t proposing free university for everyone
It's still the most sense I've seen anyone make on this website.
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@Barney
Affirmative Action if blindly followed indefinitely, sets itself on the slippery slope towards the very problems it hopes to combat.At the same time, people with generational disadvantages, should be given a leg up to assist them in opportunity to enter various fields. A not so complex way to do this, would be free state college for the top students at any highschool.
Exactly this. If all lives matter, that's putting your money where your mouth is.
A nation with no free college or healthcare is an absurdity. It might sound so simple but society is an agreement. Money is an agreement. Money is serious privilege. This thread is to cry about an underprivileged class refusing to just lay down and die. America is a nation in which the rich are fair game to be eaten.
And all that even if one race was never enslaved to another.
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I think this is all complete lunacy but so's a first world country with no free college, healthcare and guns everywhere. An "all lives matter" without those things rings a little hollow.
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@Greyparrot
I went nowhere near my mother when I had covid. I swear, you've raved on masks on here, GP.
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@Greyparrot
So I really hope you did not swallow the corporate lies about how masks and vaccines keep you from spreading Covid. For your mother's sake.
Imagine thinking masks don't at least slow the spread of covid. I didn't need a scientist to tell me that. Do you cover your mouth when you sneeze?
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@Athias
You mock and yet you cannot explain the reason I'm still alive, other than "dumb luck."
Dumb luck is what it is. The statistics bear that out.
I'm glad for your good health, Athias. I do not wish it otherwise.
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@Athias
Sounds like an ad hominem.
I don't think so. Hygiene is surely important and a foundation for good health. But so is a practical science.
Vaccines are a very practical science.
There's something awry in your philosophy.
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Or I could pray and wash my hands and avoid cooties. A funny little Master of the Universe.
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@Greyparrot
I never had any fear about covid besides about passing it onto my mother who's got a little emphysema for having tuberculosis earlier in life.
Even so, where I read that the unvaccinated are dying at a rate 10 times higher than the vaccinated, I will take that vaccine. I was always going to get covid. I got it three times. Where that vaccine will spare another man his life, it will spare me something. Is that not sensible enough?
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What's the hygiene practices? Just for fun.
I'm not trying to be mean.
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@Athias
It already does make a whole lot of sense.
No it doesn't. I don't know how you read that unvaccinated die at a rate 10 times that of vaccinated and think you'll be just fine so long as you wash your hands.
That sounds like a mental illness to me tbh. Like stimming or something.
It's a big scary world, Athias.
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@Athias
No.
Would have made a whole lot of sense.
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@Athias
Do you by any chance have OCD?
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@Athias
So let me ask you: what do you attribute to my immunological/physiological resistance to this virus these past three years despite my not being vaccinated while living in a city where said virus was most virulent?
Dumb luck, obviously.
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@Athias
To my prospects individually? Absolutely yes.
It would not suggest to you that perhaps you should take the vaccine?
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@Athias
How many more times likely am I to succumb in comparison to those who have taken the vaccine and still died within this near three-year span?
This is pure nonsense. So it's entirely meaningless that the unvaccinated have died at a rate 10 times greater than the vaccinated?
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@Athias
Why is that anyone else's concern but yours?
The truths you hold affect me. You and your antivaxxer friends may well bring back polio.
Can you? Are you suggesting that facts can be determined independent of one's presumed "authority" on the subject?
I'm suggesting that you go to college and study virology if you want to have opinions on viruses. Otherwise your "facts" are dangerous nonsense. I would generally discourage consulting anyone but a doctor about health needs.
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@Athias
It's been nearly three years, and a series of variants, and we still haven't succumbed.
I pulled the John Hopkin's data myself and built all sorts of graphics with it. I found that the unvaccinated were 10 times more likely to succumb to covid 19. Googling it I get figures like 11 and 14 times more likely.
One thing for American gun ownership, antivaxxers will need shooting dead in the street if the Black Death ever comes back around.
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@Athias
The credibility/integrity of a source may dictate whom you personally trust, but in no way does it affect the assessment and evaluation of fact.
As I have already stated, we cannot be studied debunkers on every topic. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, well... might be president of the United States.
No, but you are defending it.
I was defending ad hom initially. I suppose they're two sides of the same coin though.
Which is a nice folkway about not lying. Doesn't help your case, though.
It illustrates a practicality in ad hominem.
If a lunatic tells you that Sparrows are bipedal, and an ornithologist states that they're not, do you believe an ornithologist just because he/she is an ornithologist?
I can count the legs on a bird myself. Where it came to deeper facts on bird kind, I might take the consensus of ornithologists at large to be safe. Just as I might shop around with doctors. I wouldn't throw a plumber in there just because.
Yes, it is.
Isn't.
Citing anecdotal quotes will not help your case.
Again, it illustrates the danger in this so-called fallacy. Throw out authority in favour of studied idiocy.
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Not a chance. My Twain quote is spot on. Nobody has ever used it better.
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@Public-Choice
The appeal to authority fallacy is the oldest intellectually dishonest trick in the book that there is.
First off, I made no appeals to authority. I applied a "boy who cried wolf" kinda moral. Lunatics can be dismissed out of hand on the basis of their being lunatics. That's exceedingly practical.
Even so, appeal to authority is not a real fallacy. We all consult authorities all the time about a myriad of things. Is it fallacious that I go to a doctor about a cough? No obviously not. We specialise. Probably the chief benefit of civilisation. And let's call them specialists then. It is perfectly reasonable, when presented with a problem outside of our specialty, to consult the specialists that deal with those sort of problems. If we had to know it all ourselves, we would know little at all.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.-- Mark Twain
That quote is about anyone who thinks appeal to authority is an actual fallacy.
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I believe you two would be referred to as "suckers" in the business.
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