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@MisterChris
The accusation was that Speed was in a discord mafia PM. There's no claiming your way out of that. If you're on that wagon, you're on it to lynch.
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@Danielle
By "Elminster's wagon" I mean the wagon he initiated on Speed. So, Speed's wagon, really.
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@fauxlaw
We're supposed to believe that re-counting by the same method as the original count is supposed to yield the same result? Einstein had a word to say about that: insanity.
That's... that's not what he said. It's doing the same thing and expecting a different result. In any event, there is no proof for the things you say happened.
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@Greyparrot
Because every election going forward is "illegitimate."You doubt it?
Oh I fully agree that the Trumpers are laying the framework for delegitimizing elections from here on out.
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I agree with Danielle that we should look at who was jumping on Elminster's stupid-ass wagon:
Lunatic - troll/rvs vote
Chris - buying into the nonsense
Pie - also buying into the nonsense
whiteflame - buying into the nonsense, also sheeping danielle
Water - didn't buy into the nonsense, but also votes Speed anyway?
Danielle - for speed's reaction to the nonsense
That1User - sheeping Danielle
Of these, Chris, whiteflame, Water, and That1 stick out to me the most:
Chris - in just the very previous game Chris has demonstrated that he is fairly conservative with his votes, requiring a high level of certainty. I mean, he wouldn't lynch based on proven cop results but Discord fuckery is enough this time around?
whiteflame/That1 - I don't like sheeping. People need to develop their own reasons for voting or, if they are actually convinced by someone else's argument, demonstrate an independent understanding of why that argument is convincing or stands on its own merits. Simply going "what she said" doesn't cut it. This actually lowers my suspicion of Danielle, because it's more likely for scum to sheep off of an incorrect Town argument than scum sheeping off of fellow scum.
Water - Ostensibly comes in defense of Speed rightfully criticizing the Discord stuff as bunkum but then votes Speed anyway?
So let's go down the list:
VTL Chris
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@Greyparrot
What is happening now didn't happen in 2016, do you condone what is happening now? Why do you seem to have a problem addressing today instead of deflecting to other elections?
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Hated townie need not be policy lynched. Their existence means that MYLO is LYLO and the turn before MYLO is actually MYLO. As long as we are aware of this and proceed with caution, they can stay alive.
They don't get a free pass as a townie, but there is no need to policy lynch as opposed to say, popular or politician
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@MisterChris
Sure:
Elminster should be blacklisted.
External site information should be forbidden. If you want to play mafia, play mafia. This BS about "oh this person was typing on discord" is utter bullshit. I would be ask obstinate, if not more, than Speed is being now about that shit. Especially since it took up 10 pages of arguing and screen shots.
Firstly, it is out of the spirit of the game.
Secondly, it doesn't work. People used to do this all the time in DDO, looking at last logged in time stamps as evidence of being mafia and shit. I mean we JUST had a whole game where Elminster accused Danielle of lurking on FB and Discord when she was not and she was Town. Why is ANYONE still even given credence to this shit?
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@Greyparrot
I haven't said anything about 1860. Do you denounce what is happening by Trump now, in 2020?
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@Greyparrot
My point stands. What is happening now, today, is unique and unconscionable.
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@fauxlaw
Your opinion does not understand what treason is. Are dead people allowed to vote? Are people allowed to vote more than once? Are people allowed to vote in more than one state? How do you count more votes than there are registered voters? How do states change their election rules without the benefit of their legislators doing it? How are votes on ballots changed?But, none of that happened, did it?
If it did happen, no one has yet shown that it has. In fact, plenty of the above has been actively debunked/disproven.
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@Greyparrot
I'm just saying, casting doubt on the legitimacy of elections started 4 years ago, not nov 2020
People have contested elections way before 2016. But did anyone, in 2016 (or prior), file 50+ law suits, contact state governors and state legislatures to override the votes cast in those states? There is simply no comparison to what is going on now to anything that has happened in the past.
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Lol, no this suit doesn't "stand a chance." Supreme court will most likely not even hear it.
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@Vader
Did you even go back and look at the game in question?
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@Lunatic
Also, having such an open-ended tailor defeats the purpose of making the game semi-open. Town has no real way of actually figuring out which possibility they are in.
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@Speedrace
It threw me for a loop because I was wondering why he didn't say to kill me instead.
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@Vader
Sorry I don't think it was in DP2. It was objectively bad because it ended up being wrong.
It was objectively wrong in DP2 before being revealed that it was wrong. I'm willing to demonstrate this if you're willing to listen.
My argument was wrong
You can't say it's both not wrong and wrong in the same post, man.
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@Vader
Your argument for why Elm was scum before you outted the cop results was subjective. Any read based off behavior is subjective in mafia.
I'm talking about your argument and why it was objectively bad.
I don't feel the need to apologize for something that doesn't need criticism (eg: questioning you and scum reading you, but then voting other people that objectively make sense to lynch)
No one is asking for an apology. You've demonstrated self-awareness in the past, I'm asking you to demonstrate it now.
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@Vader
You think it’s bad because you are looking at it from your shoes, where you know your town versus my shoes, where I know that I’m town.
No, I think it's bad because your argument was objectively bad. I was trying to walk you through how, but you just couldn't be arsed to actually analyze the validity of your own argument.
I’m sorry I was too aggressive on your lynch after we had no info from DP1 besides the cop results you outted last minute versus the beginning of the DP. I should’ve just believe you and known my place is this feudal society.
This is the lack of self-awareness I'm talking about.
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@Vader
So I am not allowed to question whether or not something could be contrived or not? Last time I accepted the norm the thing I theorized was right? I didn't pursue your lynch in DP3, did I? Am I not allowed to give an alternative to something? Did I put my vote on Chris after he claimed versus sticking with you
You're allowed to do whatever you want. I never said you're not allowed to play badly, I'm just suggesting that maybe, you try not to.
conscious knowledge of one's own character, feelings, motives, and desires.My motive was to win. And yep I just can't take valid criticism
Yes, those are good examples of self-awareness that you've displayed. So where is it now?
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Oh wow. Yeah, I really don't want to hear about this game being town-sided. That kind of tailor is extremely powerful and almost impossible to discover.
I was thinking of the EpicMafia tailor where you basically you pick another role PM in the game and when that person dies they flip with that role PM.
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@Lunatic
I'm confused as to the parameters of the Tailor role. How was Speed able to Tailor Mikal as his actual role but different wincon (a wincon that wasn't even in the game)?
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@Vader
You spent the entirety of DP2 securely tying your own noose, then the entirety of DP3 placing it neatly around your neck.
The only reason you weren't lynched DP4 was because tailor obfuscated the number of maf.
So instead of whining about people calling you out for your lack of awareness, why not actually take head of the criticism and use it to improve your play?
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I did luck out in getting Ragnar NP2. Having cop in mason PM to feed results to is a GREAT boon.
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@MisterChris
Don't dismiss it as being dumb.
We had basically this same exact conversation DP3. Down to Speed telling you that miller implies real cop. You were too focused on this "extra security" thing that you weren't listening to what other people were telling you.
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@MisterChris
How did we know there would be a real COP?
Because there was a miller. The whole purpose of a miller is to foul up cop reports.
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@Speedrace
Bomb and oracle significantly damage maf if we hit it, cop, tracker/watcher AND mason with friendly neighbor and the oracle makes for FIVE investigative roles, plus JK. AND if we don't kill the soldier we lose, plus we can't talk to one of our maf members
My role wasn't investigative and had great potential to backfire if I recruited mafia and trusted them.
Oracle is a great, balanced counter to tailor.
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Overall this was a fun game. Of course I have nothing but positive things to say about quick DPs and any game that comes down to the final DP 3v1 or 2v1 is a good game.
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@Speedrace
@MisterChris
Thought he was cop, when Supa pointed out that he was on Discord I thought Pie was on discord in the chat with you xD and then Supa also pointed out that Pie didn't claim miller in his first post so I thought he was waiting to see if there was actually a miller and then claiming miller as cover. Ended up working out for us though
And that's why I didn't out who the cop was, Chris.
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Also, each Mafia member got a free fake claim. I don't want to hear anything about this being townsided.
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@Danielle
They make a person flip as a different character in the game.
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@MisterChris
I genuinely think it would've helped. We lucked out that Ragnar wasn't a mafia rolecop manipulating us
Right, I understand you have this intuition that it would have helped. I'm asking you to break that down and explain what the specific tangible benefit it was.
We weren't "lucky" Ragnar wasn't a rolecop because we knew there had to have been a real cop in the game. And if the real cop wasn't Ragnar, then it was someone else not in a mason PM with me. And if that was the case, they would have spoken up DP2 when I claimed to have the cop in a PM with me.
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@MisterChris
NP3* and I don't know. Luna doesn't give results if you die that night and even if he did, Ragnar would have died with them. I only knew of Ragnar's results because he told me.
Had Ragnar lived it would have said you were innocent.
But if Maf hadn't killed Ragnar they probably would have killed Danielle, Supa would have been lynched leaving Speed, Ragnar and myself and a win for Town.
For want of a nail and all.
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@MisterChris
Fair enough. I shouldn't have asked for full claim, that was dumb. I stand by wanting that character claim through Drafter tho.
Right, but you have to ask yourself why you needed that information? Was it information for the sake of having information or would it have tangibly help Town's chance of winning?
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@MisterChris
People didn't have much behavior to go off of, so the little I had said/questioned was enough to get me lynched even without Drafter revealing Ragnar got a guilty on me.
There was plenty of behavior to go on, IMO. And Ragnar didn't get a guilty on you. Your lynch DP4 was based on your behavior DP3 and me being wrong about how many mafia were left (due to tailor).
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@ILikePie5
Not much we could do with GP throwing. That was the difference this game.
This is why I say DPs 1-3 cancel each other out. I think the advantage gained in those two DPs cancels out the disadvantage of DP1.
I liked your play DP2.
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@MisterChris
Part of what killed you this game was your behavior DP3. The insistence on having the cop out themselves totally came off as Mafia trying to sus out who the cop actually was. There was simply no need for Town to pry out that information at that point.
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@Lunatic
Dude, I knew he was scum at that point because I know that's something you'd never say. If only because you don't believe anyone is good or bad at mafia and it is primarily luck-based!
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@Speedrace
I'll grant Elminster based on luck, but whitelfame was a total behavioral read.
Additionally, while I did not wish to influence Ragnar's decisions, he ultimately chose all of the same targets I would have, so we can dismiss it as luck but if you have two different townies independently thinking you need to be investigated cause you're likely scum, that diminishes the "luck" charge.
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@ILikePie5
Oh, well... I don't agree with that but. Oh well.
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@Vader
Also I knew town wasn't going to believe me because of my aggression this entire game. So I felt no point in arguing
That's not what Town didn't believe you. Have an enormous lack of self awareness that you need to fix if you want to improve in this game.
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Damn, Tailor. Never would have seen that coming.
Ragnar and I posited Speed trolling with his role claim and both agreed that, if he was scum, he deserves this win, and he does.
Interestingly, if Danielle had not jailed Chris, his oracle role would have activated making an entirely different last DP, but that is how the game breaks.
In the end, DPs 1-3 cancel each other out. DPS 4 and 5 determined the game based on behavior.
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@MisterChris
What messages did you receive last night?
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@Danielle
@Speedrace
While Chris and Supa are my two top scum reads, I cannot discount the possibility that either of you are scum.
Chris, almost certainly is scum as he was not quick hammered by mafia for an auto win. If Chris is town the maf is either trolling or is dumb, but I can only assume that Mafia is playing toward their wincon in the most optimal manner.
Chris, objectively, is the scummiest person and should be today's lynch. Danielle can jail Supa.
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@Vader
Ok. You don't get an opinion anyway. Just vote Chris so Town can win this game sooner.
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