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@janesix
I guess I have nothing more to add. The point I'm trying to make is whenever you are "consciously" aware of making a choice, the choice has already been made at a subconscious level.
So whenever you think you are choosing to go against your subconscious instincts, all that's happening is your subconscious mind has decided not to act on those instincts, and your conscious mind is becoming aware of that after the fact.
Whatever it is you think you are doing, if you are consciously aware of it, the brain has already decided it. There is no order of events here where the decision originates in your conscious mind.
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I'm not talking about going to sleep, eating, or having sex. I'm talking about being tired, being hungry, and being aroused. Do you have free will over those things?No, you have free will to go against instincts. If you are hungry, you can choose not to eat. If you are aroused, you can choose not to have sex.
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@janesix
Are you suggesting you have free will to not be tired, horny, or hungry? Because, remember, we're talking about Free Will here and you provided examples of things we don't have free will over.To sleep, to have sex, to eat.
How do you know it doesn't?
Because if it did, then we could deliberately thwart experiments like the one I showed you, by simply choosing differently than what our subconscious chose. But, again, the study shows that the choice is made before awareness. Once you're aware of the "choice" it's already been made. It's too late to change it.
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@janesix
How do you know that isn't exactly what happens?
Because then we'd be aware of our conscious mind receiving instructions from some subconscious part of my brain. I'm not aware of that. Are you? Do you receive instructions from unknown source?
Do you not think there is a subconscious?
I do, but it doesn't interact with the conscious brain in the manner you describe.
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@Mopac
You don't believe the "bare assertion" that if something doesn't exist in truth is is nonexistent.
Truth, with a capital "T". That is different from truth, with a lowercase "t". Let's not make the mistake of equivocation. Based on our previous conversations, you have explained that the Truth is more than just the truth, so you can't hot swap them like this in the middle of a conversation.
If something doesn't truly exist, it is non existent.
I'll agree with that. I'm not sure what that has to do with the fundamental power of the universe, though.
What is there to explain?
Oh, easy:
1. Why is it stupid to not believe in a "supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality"
2. What is the "fundamental power to all reality"?
3. What does the lack of a "fundamental power to all reality" mean there could be no reality?
4. What does it mean for "The Ultimate Reality" to have "all authority."
5. How does "The Truth" relate to "The Ultimate Reality?" Are they synonyms. Different phrases that mean the exact same thing?
And when it comes right down to it, neither of you God deniers are really debating against me, you are debating against God. It should be obvious. I am not presenting myself, I am presenting The Truth.
No. I'm debating against you. You're the one sitting on the other side of a screen typing back at me. When God and/or The Truth want to step in, they are free to do so. Until they do so, it's just you and me.
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@janesix
But you're acting like it's two, different unconnected parts of the brain here. Like, the subconscious mind makes a decision, hands it over to your conscious mind, then your conscious mind decides whether or not to go along with it or overrule it.
That's not what is happening here. Once your conscious mind is aware of making the choice, the choice was already made by your subconscious mind. Key phrase: already made. There is no opportunity here for your conscious mind to choose differently. Your brain (and therefore your body) have already committed to the act.
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@janesix
What's the difference between "you" and "your subconscious." When you say "you choose against what your subconscious has decided" what is going against what, here?
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@janesix
To me "free will" and "choice" implies a conscious decision/control.
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@janesix
Unfortunately the full article is behind a paywall. But it's just one example. The takeway, though, is:
"We found that the outcome of a decision can be encoded in brain activity of prefrontal and parietal cortex up to 10 s before it enters awareness."
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@janesix
Maybe everything you THINK you know about the universe. What I know is that I have responsibility for my behavior.
Then how do you explain the fact that we can predict people's actions before they're aware of them?
I can't decipher that.
"You do you" means you believe what you want to believe, I can't stop you.
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Battle Orders:
Luraxt: TBD
Snerp: Cure wounds on Eikka (@ 2nd level)
Grahf: Paralyzed
Eikka: Attack Offallia with eldritch blast and spiritual weapon.
Roberts: Attack, attack, attack.
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(Fixed status)
Player Summaries:
[21] Grahf - 24/28 HP - 16 AC - Breath Weapon: ⬤ | Divine Sense: 3 | Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Lay on Hands: 20 | Spell Slots: 2 [Max HP reduced (-8), Paralyzed]
[20] ✶Eikka - 1/31 HP - 16 AC - Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Relentless Endurance: ⭘ | Spell Slots: 2|3 [Spiritual Weapon (9 rounds)]
[20] Ireena - Uninjured
[15] Ismark - Uninjured
[15] Morgantha - Uninjured
[15] Bella - Uninjured
[15] Offallia - Bloodied
[15] Roberts - 36/36 HP - 18 AC - Action Surge: ⭘ | Second Wind ⬤ | Spell Slots: 0
→[12] Luraxt - 22/22 HP - 13 AC - Arcane Recovery ⬤ | Spell Secrets ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|1
[5] ✶Snerp - 23/23 HP - 13 AC - Bardic Inspiration: ⬤⭘ | Feather Fall ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|1
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@janesix
Well, that's a view that is contrary to everything we know about the universe. But you do you.
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@janesix
Lot's of reasons.
1. The only evidence we have of free will is the innate sensation that we are somehow in control of our actions. But we're not. At least not consciously. The conscious control you think you have over your own body doesn't exist. Studies have shown that conscious awareness of your actions comes after your subconscious brain has already decided on a course of action. To the extent that you can monitor someone's brain activity and accurately predict what they are about to do before they are consciously aware of it. (Example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18408715)
2. "Free will" would have to be able to operate contrary to the laws of physics. Our brains are made of matter and therefore a subject to the laws of physics and there is nothing about the brain that seemingly defies the laws of physics. Since there is no "free will" law of physics, there doesn't seem to be any allowance for us to operate with "free will." While our behaviors may seem complex and unpredictable, there is nothing to suggest they are anything other than the complex interactions among atoms.
3. Relativity demonstrates that the past, present, and future, are relative. There is no objective, singular, instantaneous, universal "present." Different observers can disagree on whether two events have occurred simultaneously and there is no measure to say that one person is objectively right and the other objectively wrong.
Consider the event: "The pitcher threw the ball." For one observer that event may have happened in their past. For another, it is happening right now in their present, for yet another it could be an event that has not happened yet. The traditional view of time is that events in the past are no longer real, and events in the future are yet to be determined, and only events happening in the present are "real." Yet it would be absurd, given our example, to say the exact same event is both real, not real, and not yet determined. The only logical response is to accept that all events are real, regardless of whether or not they occur in someone's past, present, or future. The idea of a singular "present" is then just a fiction of our mind.
The past, present, and future for the entire universe then is "real" and predetermined. Our observation of the universe is just one among an infinite number of potential points of view observing a snap-shot or "slice" of the universe from a given perspective at a given time. Your birth, your present, your death, are all real events that cannot be changed.
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@janesix
Ok. Well, realty can't be contrary to a god's wishes. So people will come to know him according to whatever that god's desires are. How you fit into that scheme would require you to know the mind of that god.
So, argue, preach, convince, or don't, because whatever you are doing is consistent with god.
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@Mopac
I haven't been "arguing" against anything. I've been asking you questions. If you can't explain yourself, then you are a poor preacher.
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@Mopac
"Authority is not simply a man made construct."
Explain. Where does it come from?
"As I said, if something doesn't exist in Truth, it is nonexistent."
This seems like a bare assertion. I don't accept it. Why is that "stupid"?
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@janesix
Sure. A god could be like: "I only want people who find gods in mathematical formula to know about me" (not sure what that has to do with intelligence, but hey).
But if this is your belief, why are you arguing with Atheists to begin with? A god will be known by only the people it wants to know it exists, whether or not you argue.
Then again, maybe the god wants to be known only be the people who are swayed by your arguments, which would make them not futile, wouldn't it?
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@janesix
For an omnipotent, omniscience being, it is logically impossible for reality to be any way other than it desires. So if it wants to be known, there is nothing that could stop it from being known.
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@Mopac
"It is simply The Truth. It speaks for itself."
Well, whenever "The Truth" wants to speak up for itself, it can create an account here and do so. In the meantime, I'm talking with you.
"You profess to believe in physics. You know what energy is. What happens to the whole universe if there is no energy?"
Well, with no energy there could be no matter, so there wouldn't be a universe. So you're saying God is simply all of the energy of the universe?
"But it goes deeper than that even. The Ultimate Reality has all authority."
You see, this, is the thing I keep trying to get out. You keep trying to make it as if God is simply truth and the universe, but when it gets down to it, there is a deeper level here. It's that deeper level I'm trying to get you to explain.
What does it mean for the ultimately reality to have "authority?" To me, "authority" is a man-made social construct. Outside of that context, I don't see that anything in the universe has authority. Also, what definition includes this requirement?
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@janesix
Well, either it does it doesn't want to be known. If it does, then everyone should know about it. If it doesn't, then no one should know about it.
We're clearly not in the first world, so we must be in the second. So either a god exists, but no one knows it, or a god doesn't exist.
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Luraxt sticks his head around the corner and attempts to conjure up the flaming/sparking sphere, but a wave of Morgantha's hand dismisses it from existence.
Snerp breaks free of the paralysis holding him in place. However, Grahf remains frozen.
[Snerp Wisdom Save: d20 (7, 16) + 1 = 17, Saved!]
[Grahf Wisdom Save: d20 (5) + 2 = 7, Failed!]
Eikka flings an eldritch blast at Offallia while having the spiritual weapon also attack her. The blast hits, but the weapon does not.
[Ranged Spell Attack: d20 (15) + 3 = 18, Hit!]
[Eldritch Blast Damage: d10 (2) = 2 force damage]
[Melee Spell Attack: d20 (6) + 4 = 10, Miss!]
Ismark fires another crossbow bolt at Offallia, scoring a minor hit.
Morgantha scowls: Ok! Enough playing around!
Morgantha flings a set of bolts at Eikka.
[Eikka takes 9 force damage]
Bella peers at Roberts. Run away, pink skin!
Roberts feels momentarily afraid, but the sensation passes quickly.
[Roberts Wisdom Save: d20 (20) + 2 = 22, Saved!]
Offallia sends another set of bolts at Eikka, dropping her, but she comes right back up.
[Eikka takes 9 force damage]
Roberts responds with his own magic missiles directed at Offallia.
[Magic Missile Damage: d4 (3) + 1 = 4x3 = 12 force damage]
(Actions from Luraxt, Snerp, and Roberts)
Player Summaries:
[21] Grahf - 24/28 HP - 16 AC - Breath Weapon: ⬤ | Divine Sense: 3 | Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Lay on Hands: 20 | Spell Slots: 2 [Max HP reduced (-8), Paralyzed]
[20] ✶Eikka - 1/31 HP - 16 AC - Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Relentless Endurance: ⭘ | Spell Slots: 2|3 [Spiritual Weapon (9 rounds), Dying]
[20] Ireena - Uninjured
[15] Ismark - Uninjured
[15] Morgantha - Uninjured
[15] Bella - Bloodied
[15] Offallia - Injured
[15] Roberts - 36/36 HP - 18 AC - Action Surge: ⭘ | Second Wind ⬤ | Spell Slots: 0
→[12] Luraxt - 22/22 HP - 13 AC - Arcane Recovery ⬤ | Spell Secrets ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|1
[5] ✶Snerp - 23/23 HP - 13 AC - Bardic Inspiration: ⬤⭘ | Feather Fall ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|1
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@Mopac
I read it; it just doesn't answer my question: says who?
What does it mean for reality to "have power?"
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
(Yeah, you got one more round of that for mm)
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@kindertina
(The casting of the sphere is an action, but the controlling it is a bonus action meaning you can do other things on those turns where you are just controlling it)
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@Mopac
"Because without the fundamental power to all reality, there is no reality."
Says who?
"Think about the myriad of objects that rely on electricity and become nothing more than useless bricks without it."
Uhm... they don't stop existing.
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@Mopac
Merriam Webster defines "ultimate reality" as:
"something that is the supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality"
Why is it stupid to not believe in such a thing?
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@janesix
Might be true. It's a surprise then why a god that wants to be known doesn't make himself known.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
(Different spells have different casting times. Green-blade flame has a casting time of "1 action" so casting that spell will use your action for that turn. However, the melee attack is built into the effect of the spell. When you cast it, you make the melee attack at the same time. If it hits, then a secondary target will automatically take additional damage. To compare GBF with dual weapon fighting:
DWF: Two attack rolls +5 each, 1d8+3 damage on the first attack, 1d6 damage on the second.
GBF: One attack roll at +2, 1d8+3 damage on the first attack, 0 bonus damage to a secondary target.
Now, I say "0" because the extra damage is equal to your spell casting ability modifier which is intelligence which, for Roberts, is 0. However, this damage scales. At level 5, you get a bonus 1d8 damage to both the primary attack and the secondary damage. This would make it:
GBF: One attack roll at +2, 2d8+3 damage on the first attack, 1d8 bonus damage to a secondary target.
The TL;DR is, right now GBF is probably not the best use of your actions, but once you hit level five it'll be a trade off between accuracy and lots of bonus damage.)
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@Vader
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@Earth
@TheDredPriateRoberts
(@Roberts: The melee attack built into green-flame blade is a single attack. But, the damage it does scales better than dual weapon fighting)
(@Earth: You can attack with the sword or toss it, but not both)
Grahf leaps off of the stairs and swings at the wounded hag, but the complex maneuver results in him missing.
[Melee Weapon Attack: d20 (4) + 6 = 10, Miss!]
Eikka summons the will of Zud which manifests itself in the form of a bizzare weapon shaped like an interrobang. The curved and straight blades spin around, attempting to slash at Offalia.
[Melee Spell Attack: d20 (12) + 4 = 16, Miss!]
Eikka then follows the spell up with an eldritch blast.
[Ranged Spell Attack: d20 (4) + 4 = 8, Miss!]
Ismark descends the stairs to take Grahf's place and fires a crossbow bolt at Offalia, but misses.
Morgantha: Oohee! More to play with! The hag lets out a horrendous screech as she casts a powerful spell.
[Grahf Wisdom Save: d20 (12) + 2 = 14, Failed!]
[Eikka Wisdom Save: d20 (15) + 4 = 19, Saved!]
[Roberts Wisdom Save: d20 (1) + 2 = 3, Failed!]
[Snerp Wisdom Save (advantage): d20 (3, 12) + 1 = 13, Failed!]
Grahf, Roberts, and Snerp find themselves frozen in place.
Bella fixes her black eyes on Eikka. Not getting away that easily, my green skinned dear!
[Eikka Wisdom Save: d20 (17) + 4 = 21, Saved!]
Once again Eikka resists being put to sleep. Bella curses.
In response, Offallia unleashes more bolts of force at the half-orc.
[Eikka takes 12 force damage]
Through sheer force of will, Roberts breaks free of the spell.
[Roberts Wisdom Save: d20 (17) + 2 = 19, Saved!]
(Luraxt, Eikka and Roberts to submit next set of actions)
Player Summaries:
[21] Grahf - 24/28 HP - 16 AC - Breath Weapon: ⬤ | Divine Sense: 3 | Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Lay on Hands: 20 | Spell Slots: 2 [Max HP reduced (-8), Paralyzed]
[20] ✶Eikka - 13/31 HP - 16 AC - Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Relentless Endurance: ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|3 [Spiritual Weapon (10 rounds)]
[20] Ireena - Uninjured
[15] Ismark - Uninjured
[15] Morgantha - Uninjured
[15] Bella - Uninjured
[15] Offallia - Injured
[15] Roberts - 36/36 HP - 18 AC - Action Surge: ⭘ | Second Wind ⬤ | Spell Slots: 1 [Paralyzed]
→[12] Luraxt - 22/22 HP - 13 AC - Arcane Recovery ⬤ | Spell Secrets ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|2
[5] ✶Snerp - 23/23 HP - 13 AC - Bardic Inspiration: ⬤⭘ | Feather Fall ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|1 [Paralyzed]
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LOL there was never a "use" for the DDO presidency other than to see how much drama could be stirred up. But, the second there is a president here I'm leaving.
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@Earth
Roberts dashes down the stairs and dart around Morgantha to slash at Offallia with his swords.
[Melee Weapon Attack (longsword): d20 (10) + 5 = 15, Miss!]
[Melee Weapon Attack (shortsword): d20 (8) + 5 = 13, Miss!]
Luraxt moves to the top of the stairs and wakes up Grahf.
Snerp breaks free of the spell holding him in place.
[Snerf Wisdom Save (advantage): d20 (15, 20) + 1 = 21, Saved!]
(Awaiting Grahf's actions)
Player Summaries:
→[21] Grahf - 24/28 HP - 16 AC - Breath Weapon: ⬤ | Divine Sense: 3 | Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Lay on Hands: 20 | Spell Slots: 2 [Max HP reduced (-8)]
[20] ✶Eikka - 25/31 HP - 16 AC - Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Relentless Endurance: ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|3
[20] Ireena - Uninjured
[15] Ismark - Uninjured
[15] Morgantha - Uninjured
[15] Bella - Uninjured
[15] Offallia - Injured
[15] Roberts - 36/36 HP - 18 AC - Action Surge: ⭘ | Second Wind ⬤ | Spell Slots: 1
[12] Luraxt - 22/22 HP - 13 AC - Arcane Recovery ⬤ | Spell Secrets ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|2
[5] ✶Snerp - 23/23 HP - 13 AC - Bardic Inspiration: ⬤⭘ | Feather Fall ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|1
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@Earth
(Looks like grahf is waking up this turn. What do you want to do?)
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@Buddamoose
(Unfortunately, you can only ever have one level of advantage on a single roll)
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
(You can, but that'll use your action surge)
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
(Unfortunately, the stairs are a bit crowded. There's not enough room to get down there with a single move. You could move and dash, that'll get you down there, then action surge. Even then, you'll have to specify a target)
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Grahf snores in dragonborn.
Eikka maneuvers around the Dretch to get to the stairs, it snaps at her with its hideous jaws, but she jumps out of the way just in time. She makes it to the bottom of the stairs and nudges Snerp awake.
Ismark turns and moves into Eikka's spot and slashes at the Dretch, slicing its heat from its neck. The remains of the creature melt back into the black-green goo from the barrel.
Morgantha grins at Snerp and Eikka. You are a meddlesome bunch, aren't ye? Don't even have the common decency to be young and succulent. Maybe your skins will make nice handbags!
She thrusts out both of her hands. Eikka feels a magical force wash over her, but it passes. Snerp, however, finds himself rooted in his spot.
[Eikka Wisdom Save: d20 (17) + 4 = 21, Saved!]
[Snerp Wisdom Save (advantage): d20 (7, 8) + 1 = 9, Failed!]
Bella Fixes her void eyes, but Eikka manages to resist the sleep effect.
[Eikka Wisdom Save: d20 (14) + 4 = 18, Saved!]
Behind them Offallia spits: Enough dicking around, sisters!
From her crooked fingers spring out three bolts of magical force that strike Eikka in the chest.
[Eikka takes 6 force damage]
(Over to Roberts and Luraxt)
Player Summaries:
[21] Grahf - 24/28 HP - 16 AC - Breath Weapon: ⬤ | Divine Sense: 3 | Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Lay on Hands: 20 | Spell Slots: 2 [Max HP reduced (-8), Asleep]
[20] ✶Eikka - 25/31 HP - 16 AC - Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Relentless Endurance: ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|3
[20] Ireena - Uninjured
[15] Ismark - Uninjured
[15] Morgantha - Uninjured
[15] Bella - Uninjured
[15] Offallia - Injured
→[15] Roberts - 36/36 HP - 18 AC - Action Surge: ⭘ | Second Wind ⬤ | Spell Slots: 1
[12] Luraxt - 22/22 HP - 13 AC - Arcane Recovery ⬤ | Spell Secrets ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|2
[5] ✶Snerp - 23/23 HP - 13 AC - Bardic Inspiration: ⬤⭘ | Feather Fall ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|1 [Paralyzed]
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@Buddamoose
(You can only use spell slots to cast your magic initiate spells if you chose the same class as your base class)
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RETCON:
[Grahf Wisdom Save (Inspiration): d20 (16) + 2 = 18, Saved!]
Grahf resists being turned into a frog and delivers a rude gesture to Morgantha.
Bella turns her black eyes onto Grahf. Enough toading around, eh?
[Grahf Wisdom Save: d20 (8) + 2 = 10, Failed!]
Grahf grumbles to the ground, asleep.
Player Summaries:
→[21] Grahf - 24/28 HP - 16 AC - Breath Weapon: ⬤ | Divine Sense: 3 | Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Lay on Hands: 20 | Spell Slots: 2 [Max HP reduced (-8), Asleep]
[20] ✶Eikka - 31/31 HP - 16 AC - Channel Divinity: ⭘ | Relentless Endurance: ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|3
[20] Ireena - Uninjured
[15] Ismark - Uninjured
[15] Morgantha - Uninjured
[15] Dretch - Bloodied
[15] Bella - Uninjured
[15] Offallia - Injured
[15] Roberts - 36/36 HP - 18 AC - Action Surge: ⭘ | Second Wind ⬤ | Spell Slots: 1
[12] Luraxt - 22/22 HP - 13 AC - Arcane Recovery ⬤ | Spell Secrets ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|2
[5] ✶Snerp - 23/23 HP - 13 AC - Bardic Inspiration: ⬤⭘ | Feather Fall ⬤ | Spell Slots: 2|1 [Asleep]
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