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No shit, sherlock. That's exactly my point. What matters is actual gameplay. Save the theorycrafting for separate threads and stop clogging up this one. If you want to talk about actual gameplay then let's talk about actual gameplay. In other words:Normal gameplay actually doesn't have a damn thing to do with theorycrafting.
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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All the players here are from DDO. So whether or not they've played elsewhere or studied elsewhere, that gambit never made its way into DDO scum-play. Your argument literally depends on DDO players suddenly and spontaneously deciding to adopt that gambit - out of nowhere.
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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👏Theory👏crafting👏means👏shit👏if👏you👏can't👏back👏it👏up👏with👏actual👏examples👏
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You're entire argument is built around this single point that you can't defend.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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Note: When TheHammer/Seventh had the gall to say that he had never played with me, Town-Budda poured over years-old DDO games just to prove him wrong. Yet when asked to back up his claim that waiving NK's at MYLO is SOP, is what Mafia generally does, is what game theory and logic demands, he can't provide a single example.
We just have to take his word that it happens - like - all the time.
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Theory crafting means shit if you can't back it up with actual examples.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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For the town, this should be the clincher right here:
Vaarka: Despite your disagreements, I get the feeling you're both (Budda and Drafter) town.
Budda: This is exactly what I've been trying to get him to consider
At this time, Budda is voting me because he believes I'm scum.
Yet, when Vaarka Town Reads the both of us, Budda jumps in, agreeing with him!
Budda is both voting me because he thinks I'm scum and agreeing with Vaarka's assessment that I'm town!
It can't be both. Not only can it not be both, but Budda's response couldn't have come from a Townie. If you're a townie. And you think someone is scum. And you're trying to get that scum lynched. And someone comes along that town reads that target, you try and convince them that their read is wrong and to join your lynch.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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Budda: I've been trying to say that me and drafterman are both town!
Also Budda: Help me lynch Drafterman!
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Budda: "You really tryna say there would be two cops in an 8 player game? Highly unlikely." Post #9
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UVC
Drafterman (1/4) - Budda ← Vote here if you are dumb/scum
VTNL (1/4) - Drafterman ← Vote here if you are smart/town
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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@Buddamoose
Because of my results. From my PM. That say that you're guilty.You say I'm guilty because of pure WIFOM.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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@Vaarka
Ok, well, then be the change you want to see; be active. Inactivity only hurts town. What are you going to do with your vote?
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Also, Budda says his primary mafia experience is from EM. But, with EM, the most popular set-up is Classic Mafia, which has a very firm SOP which includes:
- Mafia Counter-Claiming Cop
- Both cops outing reports
- And everyone VTNLS!
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It makes total sense GP died if Drafter is scum. GP was FoS'ing me for garb reasons. But nonetheless FoS'ing me, therefore his death becomes a handy thing to point to and go"OmG hE waS FoS'iNg BudDa ThErEfoRE BuDdA iS ScuM CauSe He Died"
But... I didn't do that?
Ethan was FoS'ing you, but congrats, he was almost lynched yesterday, and still looks scummy as a holdover. Why would he not stay alive if he's town? But hey, it does give some nice handy WIFOM"DrAfTeR cAnT bE ScUm BeCaUsE He WoUlD HaVe KilLeD EtHaN"
And I didn't do that either?
Now you're just straight making up lies.
Ur WIFOM'ing. Ur whole case is WIFOM built upon an assumed SoP that would be nonsensical for mafia to follow as illustrated.
My case is, and has always been: I'm the cop. You are guilty.
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@Vaarka
Budda claims this is a thing that is SOP and happens all the time but can't provide a single example. Now he concedes that it might have happened somewhere, at least once. The point is, he's backing off once pressured because his logic doesn't hold weight.
From an objective, town POV, it is 50/50 between me and Budda. You want to flip that coin? Go right ahead.
If we VTNL, and Mafia waves their kill, and we have no investigative results: We aren't worse off.
If we VTNL, and Mafia doesn't waive their kill, and we have no investigative results: We aren't worse off.
If we VTNL, and we get investigative results: We are better off.
So the choices are: risk the game on a coin flip - or - NL and potentially increase our position. Remember, according to Budda, Mafia has to waive their NK because of logic.
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It's almost as if mafia are incentivized to never be overtly obvious in their actions. Imagine that
Scum: Hmm. It's MYLO. A townie is one vote away from being mislynched. All I have to do is hammer and win the game. Nope! That would BE TOO OVERTLY OBVIOUS.
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@Buddamoose
Why would Mafia push for a NL to try and win the game on a gamble when they can push for a lynch and just win the game? Show me the "game theory" there.The obvious answer would be the first. But yet here I am, scum in your eyes and I claimed the second, less than obvious answer.
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UVC
Drafterman (1/4) - Budda ← Vote here if you are dumb/scum
VTNL (1/4) - Drafterman ← Vote here if you are smart/town
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@Buddamoose
If you actually thought VTNL'ing was the best choice, it'd be the best choice regardless of whether you thought I was scum or town. But something tells me that has changed
Uh, I've never waivered from my stance that we should VTNL, or that you are scum.
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Even assuming mafia is only played on DDO. And also assuming players here NEVER look up mafia theory, I just outlined exactly why killing at MYLO would be stupid. You really think Mafia are gonna go ahead and kill someone when they now fully realize it wouldn't be in their benefit to?
Is it better for mafia to push for a mislynch at MYLO or a NL at MYLO only to waive their kill on a gambit?
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The progression of Budda's logic:
It's SOP!
It's SOP?
It's SOP somewhere else, on the moon, maybe.
It's a gamble somewhere else, on the moon, maybe.
It's maybe happened once? In a fever dream I had after some bad peyote?
I invented this idea. It's mine.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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The Scum PM:
ethang: That was close, who should we kill tonight? Drafterman?
Budda: I know, I was afraid I was going to have to bus you. Draft is town reading me, so we can use that to our advantage. Let's get GP, he's the bigger threat.
...
Budda: Shit. That fucker is annoying. We should have NKd him.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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@Buddamoose
But VTNL'ing isnt going to produce some magically game breaking result.
But it could, do you deny that possibility?
It only leaves the potential for a no kill gambit present, and either hurts town via the loss of a player mafia specifically wants to eliminate,
WRONG, Bucko, remember?
Your words: "killing at MYLO is mathematically the wrong choice for mafia. It's not gonna take a genius to compromise that 1/4(25%) is less than 1/3(33.3_%)."
or a return to the status quo tomorrow.
Yeah, like I said: either we get results that help us, or we are no worse off!
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The progression of Budda's logic:
It's SOP!
It's SOP?
It's SOP somewhere else, on the moon, maybe.
It's a gamble somewhere else, on the moon, maybe.
It's maybe happened once? In a fever dream I had after some bad peyote?
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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Of course, this argument doesn't address why a Mafioso would push for a VTNL. The No Kill gambit is just that: a gambit. It's a gamble. Why push for a VNTL based on a gamble, when they can push for a mislynch and win the game outright? So even if it is sensibly argued that NKing on a MYLO night makes sense, it doesn't make sense why Mafia would choose that path if they could avoid it by simply winning the game.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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For the record:
VTNL can't make town's position worse.
It can possibly make our position better.
Why lynch, again?
Oh, right, because you want to win the game right now rather than risk getting outed tomorrow with additional investigative results.
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@Buddamoose
Where did i ever claim it was SoP?
Now:
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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For the record:
Budda is claiming that something that never happens is SOP.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO. You said it was SOP, remember? Gambits aren't SOP.
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@Buddamoose
Reference a single DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO, or GTFO.
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@Vaarka
Budda is blatantly lying about how this game is played. What do you think about that? Have you ever heard of Mafia waiving their kill at MYLO?
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@Buddamoose
Finding a DDO game where mafia waived a kill at MYLO shouldn't me too hard. It's SOP, remember? It'd be stupid of them not to waive their kill. Remember?
Oh, but you can't. Because it doesn't happen because it isn't SOP.
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Here's another thing, Budda. If you were town so set on lynching at MYLO you'd - oh I don't know - actually be trying to decide on who to lynch! But you're not. Because you're not town. You're scum.
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