janesix

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In physics, energy is defined as the ability to "do work", whatever that is supposed to mean. But I have felt energy, including spiritual energy, and it is definitely a "thing" to me. Still hard for me to grasp what it actually is though. It seems to be tied in with will and emotions somehow. 

Do you think energy is a "thing" which can exist independantly of matter?

Give me an example of you changing your beliefs.

And what have you accomplished so far?

I like you, and don't want you to leave. 

Just don't see why you have to constantly push your ideas on everyone else.

What ancient civilizations?

It is not your job to "reason" with atheists. They will find their own way. That is between them and God.

There have been thousands of different religions throughout human history. Everyone thinks they are right. How likely is it that EVERYONE has the truth? About zero.

That some one has stumbled on the truth, or that God has given someone the Truth, is possible but I doubt it has happened. 

That we are all stumbling around in the dark trying to figure things out is more likely the case. 

Yes, EVERYONE is projecting, mopac

lol

Could be I said that. If I did, it was an exaggeration.

That it evolved is something I can comprehend.(Not that I necessarily believe that though, it is just comprehensible in my mind, might be a holdover from my former materialism)

That an all-knowing intelligence always existed as is  is not comprehensible to me. But that very well may be the case.

I've never said it is impossible to know. 

There could be some humans that do know. I doubt that very much though.

Really? I am not the one pretending to KNOW. 

I have watched a lot of Campbell,, he certainly thinks he "knows" what he is talking about. I take it with a grain of salt. He does have interesting ideas though.

Reposted from letterpile
My idea is nearly the same. Except that the "void" is space, and the random fluctuations of information are quantum fluctuations. If you add in Panpsychism, everything falls together. There is no "first" consciousness, there is always consciousness in the universe. If every particle already has consciousness, just a tiny spark of awareness, then awareness is popping in and out of existence all the time. Patterns occasionally form out of randomness. This is a slightly higher awareness for a brief time. Even more rarely, you get the occasional pattern that forms a sustained (not indefinitely) pattern, a cellular automaton. Usually these automata peter out after a while, as in the Game of Life.
If this actually happens in the quantum world, and I don't see why it couldn't, then the consciousness of these automata would be a little more aware. The entire automata may have it's own separate consciousness from each individual part, as each human has a separate consciousness than each individual cell in the body. This idea is called "holons", coined by Arthur Koestler.
The automaton, like all consciousness, has a sense of survival. It may then figure out how to keep it's pattern going. Eventually, it may learn other things, such as how to evolve in order to stay "alive". It may begin to learn how to manipulate other automata or particles, perhaps incorporating them into it's own patterns. It may learn how to create new patterns. It builds the first simple atom, them molecules, eventually there are clouds of dust, and finally, suns.
Then eventually, we get the universe we see today. We are all nodes in this larger consciousness, as is each particle, molecule, animal, sun, galaxy.
But there is still the overarching consciousness, that incorporates all into itself. I call it God.
If this is true, and I don't know if it is, then we really are all connected. It perfectly explains entanglement and nonlocality. There is a consciousness that connects everything.
The first automata must have had only base instincts. Perhaps only the survival instinct. I can't imagine it having higher emotions such as love or guilt. These must have evolved much later. I can see it may have felt an instinctual fear of it's demise. at first. Then as it evolved and progressed, higher emotions evolved,and that's why we have them today. As an overarching consciousness, it may experience even higher emotions we can't even imagine.
It must also be at a much higher level of consciousness than a human being. With everything in the universe connected, there must be many, many more connections than in the neural networks in our brain. The whole universe is like a giant brain. Although consciousness doesn't require a brain, higher intelligence might
I can't imagine being conscious for billions of years. What it must have gone through! Did it create us, other intelligent beings, to have someone to talk to? That seems a bit silly, but I wonder.

Mopac isn't crazy. He is stubborn.

I suspect I made him uncomfortable. He likes to think he knows ALL.

Then don't respond to my posts. 

I don't see how that pertains to our conversation.

I suspect you have never been in the position of changing your worldview. Otherwise, you would know what I mean.

No, it requires an emotional adjustment, not just thinking. Feelings seem to have little importance to you. 

You seem to have very little charity towards your fellow human beings. 

Of course atheism is a valid position. There is little evidence for God, and what there is is not compelling to atheists. 

Emotional attachment to beliefs stand in the way. Changing your worldview is a huge deal to most people. 

It is a hard thing to "un"indoctrinate yourself. Some people are capable of reevaluating their beliefs as they grow older. I would say that is very rare though. 

Nearly everyone has been indoctrinated as a child to some belief. For some, it was materialism.

Atheists are not deluded. 

Some are indoctrinated into materialism. 

Some are rational thinkers who have decided there isn't enough evidence for God.

I understand what you're saying, and what Mopac is saying. I just don't think humans have enough information, and possibly the lack of comprehensive ability, to know what the Utimate reality consists of. Who knows? Conscious entities may be late players in the game. I may send you a link of my earlier thoughts on this.

We don' know what Ultimate reality consists of, and what part God plays in that. 

What you "accept" as God and what God truly is may be two different things. Have you thought of that?

There are religions much older than your church.

It isn't a glaring error. It is a copied story from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

So what is the story's allegorical or metaphorical meaning then?

What makes you think the bible is God's word

I have doubts that God is the God of the bible

Yes

Do you?

I didn't say that.

Other people might understand the "meaning" of the word God. I know almost nothing about God. 

no i cant

I can't.

ok.

Not sure how I'm supposed to accomplish that, or even what that means.

Yet you claim to. why wouldn't i recognize Him?

I would recognise His presence if He came to me.

So if you have not really experienced the reality of Jesus in any personal, experiencial way, I don't understand why you believe.

But how do you know that?

Have you ever had Jesus talk to you?

Have you felt His presence? 

How has Jesus worked in your life?

How do you know Jesus is real?

I kind of missed christmas as I was on a train home from visitting my parents. 

My dad was hospitalized due to acute respitory failure, and now probably has lung cancer but we are not sure yet. 

He is home now on permenant oxegen. doing a bit better, enough to come home. we were able to get all of the family together for christmas eve. 

I am not a christian but I have always loved christmas a s time together with my family. 

Tell them you love them, hug them, keep in touch. Because you never know if it's the last time.