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@Greyparrot
I dont care what color their skin is.Illegal criminal Marxists from largely Marxist nations South of the border isn't making America great.Anything but.
No criminal makes America great. And the more you use the word Marxist to describe everyone, from immigrants to democrats to people who disagree with you, the more I begin to see you as someone worth discounting, someone who just spews labels and insults, instead of reasonable debate. And I have certainly not thought of you this way up until now, especially after commenting so thoroughly on Biden's plan. You even opened my eyes on a couple of points.
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@BrotherDThomas
Like I keep saying, the ONLY thing worthwhile in heaven is there is not going to be any whining self-pitying 2nd class women like you, praise Jesus!Run along dear, I am sure you have some womanly duties to perform for either your husband or boyfriend, or if you are really ungodly, some things to do for your "slurpy" girlfriend! Ewwwwwwwww!Good day.
And like Castin said (and I paraphrase), "If there are no women, it isn't much of a Heaven is it?" And you know what? I'm guessing you pretty much already have "that" right here on Earth. I can't imagine any woman wanting to be anywhere near you. Praise Jesus!! BrotherDThomas has Heaven on Earth!!
And If you had been paying attention, which you never seem to be, except to your own rhetoric, I have repeatedly said that the Bible is riddled with inconsistencies. Yes, they cancel each other out, you moronic heathen, which makes neither the HATE nor the LOVE of any real importance. I don't go around saying things like the ALL PERFECT AND LOVING GOD AND JESUS WHO IS THE TRUE LIGHT OF THE WORLD. Yet you go around saying SERIAL KILLING JEWISH CHRISTIAN JESUS. Neither extreme exists.
What it all makes, is NOTHING. There is no difference between the Bible, the Qur'an, the Torah or the Greek and Roman Gods. You make much ado about NOTHING. It sounds to me like you used to believe in some version of God. And now you hate him. Instead of just becoming an atheist, you have become an anti-theist. You hate a God you can no longer believe good things about. And that's a shame.
Why not just believe in something else? Like a good woman. Oh wait. No good woman would have you.
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@secularmerlin
Except in regards to freewill?
No. Of course not. I am still struggling. I am just not yet convinced that it does not, in some form, exist (even partially).
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) we encounter a REASON to modify our models and or behavior (THEN) we can explore (available) options to produce a "more favorable" result
Yes. Even the "desire" to modify our patterns is a cause. I get that. But I do not think that cause = no free will. I think that cause, in association with "randomness" allows us to use our biologically programmed "learning via repetition" and "learning via positive or negative reinforcement" programs to create experiences that naturally lead us to more favorable results. Reprogramming DOES have a cause. It just gives us more control, not complete control. Experience programs us. Using our own biology and conscious ability to write a script, or with more knowledge, a program --- reprograms us.
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@3RU7AL
Our biology is hardware.Our formative experience is firmware (and OS).Our conscious adult decision framework is software.
Yes, our biology is hardware. But our formative experiences are more than merely firmware and certainly not just our Operating System. I used my "walking" program and my "arms" program to create a "climbing" program. I then used my "climbing" program, in association with my "physical knowledge of trees" program, to create my "tree climbing" program. This process hardly stops during your lifetime. Firmware and OS are updated infrequently and all at once. They are not updated on a constant never-ending schedule, upon which our "new" program abilities are built. Just two weeks ago, I used my "writing in English" and my "general forum knowledge" program to learn how to create a "posting in DebateArt" program. Arguably though, this program is now part of my firmware. :)
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@3RU7AL
Good example.
My FIRST COMPLIMENT!!! At least I think so. I may have missed a "good point" here or there if it was followed by calling me IGNORANT or STUPID. :)
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@3RU7AL
Belief in judgmental gods also CAUSES (some) people to act more honestly.I'm not convinced that counts as EVIDENCE supporting the truth-value of such a claim.
I agree. That's why I called it a "tidbit". It proved nothing. It was just interesting.
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@3RU7AL
However, our ability to change those patterns is still constrained by our biology and our environment.
Absolutely. This is why I use the phrase "partial free will".
And this is a perfectly reasonable belief (unfalsifiable) but it is important to remember that indeterminism is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM RANDOM.
I think that may be true to a certain extent. I do not think a choice is free will. A decision is more difficult. No decision is made in a vacuum. This is where randomness comes into play. You have to be exposed to different ideas all the time. For instance, when I click on "Religion" and first see all the new Religion thread subjects. No part of me knows what these will be, especially my first day on DebateArt. For me, those threads were random --- less so as I stayed on the forum day after day. But still . . . As I began to read random ideas that were not my own, they mixed with the complexity of ideas and influences in my own brain. The combination of "RANDOM" and my existing "DETERMINISTIC" attitudes, caused things to change in me, possibly indelibly.
This is how I define my identity. So yes, randomness plays a huge role. But I see free will a little differently. I see it as a script. I use the same programs that biology gave me (desires, needs, etc. . .) to force feed repetitive "experiences" that I create into my own system. In this way, I "partially control" my own associations (my wine example). I no longer just allow natural "experience" to be my only programmer. This decision still has a cause, but I think self-programmer is better than saying "no free will" at all. Randomness is still involved, along with cause, but I get to make a decision like "read everything I get my hands on" in order to learn and become a better self-programmer.
A little naive maybe, but I already know how little control we have --- as biological, electrically-neuron-controlled people. :) So I spend my time looking for loop-holes.
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@zedvictor4
Making decisions....Conscious effort (effect) stimulated by cause....Decisions by definition allow for choice (free will).
Can you really say that choice = free will? The whole debate about determinism hinges on "choice" being nothing but an illusion. A thing I grudgingly agree with to some extent. I argue that you can reprogram your own "desires" to make that "choice" a different one.
Your database example is a good one, if you are talking about "new fields" and not just more data. A "learning artificial intelligence (AI) brain", in theory, can learn something new by seeing two known data components interact in a new way. This "new way" would necessarily require the robot to create a "field" or a whole new table. The introduction of the new structure would require the entire database to draw new relationships between the new table and the rest of the table. But some would say the robot is still programmed and can never be "conscious".
Evolution has made this process automatic for us, and for animals, using experience (our senses) as the only initial cause. Once we have a bank of memories, we use these (via internal thought) to make decisions. This is why they say that there is no free will. But if we can consciously create forced experiences for ourselves and control the elements we are associating, can't that mean that we have partial free will? Like my wine example previously, I can force myself to like rose' instead of zinfandel by associating it over and over again with laughter, good music and friends. Here "I" am forcing the experience, instead of just "walking into it unaware" -- and I am repeating it. It is still cause and effect. I am just exerting a little more control over the "cause and effect" process. I call that reprogramming and "partial free will".
But I am guessing
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@ILikePie5
We’re no more far-righters than you are a far-leftist
Thanks for that. I appreciate it quite a bit. You are right of course. I shouldn't call you "far-righters" anymore than Greyparrot should call me a "Marxist".
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@Castin
@Tradesecret
@BrotherDThomas
2nd class woman lady3keys,I have addressed your comical posts and the equally Bible ignorant Castins as well. There is no need for me to continue in making you two the fools that you are, understood? Listen, because of your outright biblical ignorance . . .
Nicked a vein did we? About your approach, your hate, your bullying and your assertion of MY biblical ignorance (you can't say the same about Castin):
1 Corinthians 16:14,
Let all that you do be done in love.
1 Corinthians 13:1-8, <--------- WOW IS THIS YOU!
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1 John 4:7,
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
Romans 12:14-21,
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.
Luke 6:35,
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
AND SO MANY MORE!!!! Like I HAVE BEEN SAYING, there is as much of LOVE in the BIBLE as there is of HATE. No set of verses, no matter how HATE-filled represents the entire Bible (or any religious tome). I don't even believe in a Mr. God and I know this much. Your Serial Killer Jesus is simply your own hatred drawing to your twisted soul, the worst the Bible "seems" to offer.
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@Greyparrot
It clearly says there Biden believes housing should be a right.
You're right. It clearly does state that "housing should be a right" . I have to say, I do think schooling is much more important than making "housing a right". But I think that Joe is simply saying that there are precious few buying opportunities for low-income housing. He isn't saying that every person, regardless of income, deserves to live in a $120,000 house. He just wants to incentivize banks, contractors, realtors, etc . . . to provide an opportunity for lower-income individuals to own homes that don't cost 50% of their income.
And though I do think housing should be equitable and fair, I honestly don't think it truly can be, if going to college keeps poorer students from attending. And if non-college jobs still pay pathetic wages, then how can anyone but the wealthy afford homes?
Until they can fix this obvious problem, they can hold off on all the other goodies and rights they wanna redistribute through their Marxist plans.
I wish you would stop referring to "they" (I assume you mean democrats) as MARXISTS! Democrats, for the most part, ARE NOT MARXISTS. I am an Independent. I am not a MARXIST. I simply believe in a capitalistic, partially socialist, democracy where the law and order component (and the bailout money!) can and should be hotly contested!
And I would rather debate "housing as a right" (which I do not believe in) than scare the suburbs into thinking their communities are about to be overrun with black and Latino criminals (a VERY republican -- and Trump -- thing to do. But then again, I don't mean to insult republicans by associating their name with Trump.
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@secularmerlin
Skepticism is the default.
As well it should be! I am a skeptic at heart. But I admit, I will continue to split hairs, if it means I can find a little bit of hope where I have precious little. But TRUTH, OR AT LEAST ITS OFTEN CLUMSY PURSUIT (for me), WILL ALWAYS COME FIRST!
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@BrotherDThomas
I am so sorry, but I cannot take any more of my valuable time for Jesus in addressing your complete ignorance upon not understanding omniscient God concepts
"You fly back to school now little starling. Fly, fly fly. Fly, fly, fly." <----------- Silence of the Lambs reference. Also, as Castin so aptly stated, "BrotherDThomas, the DEBATEART RUNAWAY."
OR AS I PREFER: DEBATEART BULLY! Though I will admit, at times quite amusing. Somewhat of a guilty pleasure . . . .
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@Castin
It sounds like you're a compatibilist.
I guess I am. But I have to say, I hate the sound of that word. It reminds me an awful lot of the word "conformist". But by definition alone, I think you're right. I am a compatibilist.
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@secularmerlin
I am no longer able to participate or partake in the "beautiful lie".
Of course not. I want the truth as well. I'm just not convinced that it is ALL a lie. It might be. But for me, the jury is still out.
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@secularmerlin
See the problem is that I don't think you are going to be able to site or even make up an example that doesn't start with a "why I'm doing a thing" and that is a cause.
I guess I just don't buy the idea, that just because everything has a "cause", there is no freewill.
A cause can have many effects and you can't always say that Cause A will create Cause B in the same way every time (radioactive decay). I do believe though, to a certain extent, that we are like programmed robots. But at a minimum, I also believe we have been given the ability to understand our source code and change, in part, our programmed identities. But . . . it really could just all be an illusion. Science certainly seems to prove that more and more.
HOWEVER, even if we are all just a web of neurons, firing in our own grey matter, there is also this interesting tidbit: :)
A reporter wrote, "Kathleen Vohs, then at the University of Utah, and Jonathan Schooler, of the University of Pittsburgh said, 'on a range of measures Vohs and Schooler found that “people who are induced to believe less in free will are more likely to behave immorally." When asked to take a math test, with cheating made easy, the group primed to see free will as illusory proved more likely to take an illicit peek at the answers. When given an opportunity to steal—to take more money than they were due from an envelope of $1 coins—those whose belief in free will had been undermined pilfered more.'
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@Greyparrot
Yeah...housing should be a right... why not food? What about water? Energy? Healthcare? Shit, everything we consume should be a "right"
WOW!!!! I applaud your commitment. I cannot possibly read all of that tonight. I have to go. But I will try to read it all when I can. I have to say that right off the bat you are saying things about Biden that he didn't say. The plan said, "Joe has fought for housing equity" and "He will end redlining and other discriminatory and unfair practices in the housing market". He DID NOT SAY that housing was a right.
But honestly, WOW! I know I am just about the only moderate (liberal leaning) person in the Politics forum. But you guys really seem to gang up and pat each other on the back a lot. You seem to always be in "attack" mode. I promise to give your ideas the attention they deserve. But your "wall of text" will take some time.
And again, I've only been around for a couple of weeks. But I can't seem to find anything but far-right-wing conservatives here (NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT!) <---- Seinfeld reference :) SERIOUSLY, I'm just joking here.
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@Tradesecret
Hi and thanks for those passages.I still think that a judge must be above reproach in respect of his judgment. Otherwise - he will be seen as biased.And although God might be at all times a father and at all times a teacher - it does not mean that this will mean that he will be unjust in his sentence.
No prob. But I personally think that it truly DOES MEAN that God is frequently unjust. There is no way that an entire civilization (Noah's Flood) was evil, even, according to you, Noah's family (saved only by "grace" which you said was a gift). If EVERYONE IS EVIL then their CREATOR, FATHER and TEACHER should shoulder some of the blame.
But I applaud your determination to make everything God did in the Bible to be just. But you've heard the old adage "too many cooks in the kitchen". Then think of all the biblical authors and all the time periods in between each of the books. If I were still a Christian, I would prefer to think of God as "good" DESPITE the Bible.
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@zedvictor4
All that one can do is either expand ones database and therefore modify output, or simply re-organise ones pre-existing data store. (Alter ones outlook).......One cannot de-programme and re-programme at will.
Depends what you mean by database. Expanding your database will be meaningless if the programs are not changed to utilize the new fields. If you meant just expanding the "data" and not the database, then that would only give you more output, not "modify the output". As for reorganizing the database or data store (a reconfigure), this would cause the programs to crash, since they would refer to data connections that no longer exist or have been changed. I would think this would make reprogramming essential.
Social factors may cause you to make alternative decisions (wine) so you simply modify a pre-existing data programme, (conscious effort or free will)..... Therefore in this instance one can clearly make distinctions between cause and effect, and free will.
Not really. In this example, the "social factors" would be a new "cause". It would prove only that the cause-and-effect line of bowing to social pressure was stronger than the cause-and-effect line of choosing the wine I preferred. I would still have no free will.
But I do believe what you were talking about with pre-existing programs. We are born with basic programs. As we grow and learn these basic programs are used to build larger and larger networks of programs. But understanding these programs, means we can use them to our advantage. Instead of programming, you might call them "scripts". A script can call any number of pre-existing programs and create complete worlds using just a handful of these.
Our senses, physiological needs and emotions are some of these basic programs. We may not be able to reprogram our physical (and emotional) need for food, but we can use this "food" program to write our own program (say for using a fork). We are not born with the need or ability to handle a fork. But we love to eat. Our parents teach us how to eat "better" by using the fork. If, years later, we wanted to use only chopsticks, we could use the need for food, the "food" program to do this. We might only allow ourselves to eat if we use the chopsticks.
There would still be a cause and effect. But with the chopsticks, the cause is most predominantly our desire for change. The reason behind wanting to change is probably the real cause.
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@secularmerlin
@n8nrgmi
here is a satire piece on the subject, but it does the best job actually making the argument, that God indeed has bipolar disorder
I thoroughly enjoyed this link. I also learned more about the Gnostics. Although I tend to agree with secularmerlin's post about the authors of the Bible, I still think the bi-polar God idea fits too --- and is hilarious! I like to think that God evolved over time. God being stern and filled with Rage in the OT and then loving and forgiving in the NT. He has been learning and growing as a "god". He is still learning though, so don't expect a stable God anytime soon.
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@Greyparrot
Then why aren't you helping Trump make more policies to build the black family back up with prison and welfare reforms and economic opportunity zones?
I AM!!!! By voting for someone who will actually help! Just ask 90% of the black vote. Biden cares about the black community. He cares about poor white people as well, He will not destroy Medicare like Trump plans to do. He will build on Affordable Care. He will not raise their taxes, only people who make over 400K a year. Read his plan.
As for helping the black community:
Biden unveils plan to boost finances of blacks, Latios
Highlights From Joe Biden's Agenda For The Black Community
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@secularmerlin
and since we do not choose our desires it sounds like cause and effect are at least sufficient to explain the process
Okay. I am not suggesting that we choose our desires. I am saying we can reprogram them. This will be an insufficient example but here goes:
If every time I am offered a choice of wine, I choose a white zinfandel, then I probably have positive associations going past merely the taste. I probably associate it with friends and good times. But let's say, unlike a dog for instance, I notice that I "always" pick the zinfandel. I can force myself to pick a rose', but that is will and not free will (according to me anyway).
What I can do, is sit down with a rose'; put on music I like; look at pictures of me and my friends laughing; watch a comedy I like and try to associate good things with the rose'. If I repeat this activity repeatedly throughout the next few months, I might change my "tendency" to always select a zinfandel. Once I have had more "positive" experiences with the rose', than the zinfandel, I might automatically order it, instead of the zinfandel. My choice in the moment is still not free will. But I have changed that choice by re-programming my pre-programmed "desire".
Understand, I'm not in any way excluding cause and effect. I don't think any action, or thought for that matter, comes without a cause. I simply believe we can notice the results of our programming and, with work and savvy, change our programming --- a thing our animal predecessors cannot.
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So I feel your link to him having fatherly responsibilities is an overreach
2 Corinthians 6:18 & 2 Samuel 7:14, “I will be a Father to you and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”
Ephesians 3:15, “[God is] the Father from whom all fatherhood derives its name.”
1 John 3:1, “How great is the love the Father has lavished on us that we should be called children of God!”
Psalm 68:5-6, “A Father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling. God sets the lonely in families, he leads forth the prisoners with singing.”
Matthew 7:11, “If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!”
Galatians 4:6, NLT: "And because we are his children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, prompting us to call out, 'Abba, Father."
I think that the teacher is unhelpful. I don't see God as a teacher in the sense of a classroom.
Psalm 32:8, I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you should go; I will counsel you with My eye upon you."
Psalm 71:17, "O God, You have taught me from my youth, and I still declare Your wondrous deeds."
Isaiah 28:26, "For his God instructs and teaches him properly."
Isaiah 48:17, “I am the Lord your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go."
John 6:45, "It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."
A judge need to remain objective in his judgment. If it turned out that the judge was also the father of the defendant - the judge would need to recuse himself - as a conflict of interest. Justice demands that to be the case.
I agree! My Father and Teacher analogy still stands.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
this is a common thing leftist do with the 'black community' they can't help break the law because they are black and poor, they are talented and just as bright as white kids, right?
It is a common thing because it at least hints at the truth. This is about opportunity. The more opportunities you have, the better you behave.
Think of the kids whose parents paid to get them into great colleges despite their grades and SATS. THAT is an opportunity. The poorer students with great scores were turned away. Think about all the opportunities online, the jobs, the connections. Poorer students cannot afford a laptop and historically, probably not even a smartphone. In poorer neighborhoods, parents work two jobs and are often unavailable at night to supervise their children. Uneducated parents are more likely to create traumatizing environments for those children. Add to that the fact that kids tend to mimic the behavior of the older kids and adults in their community and you have a recipe for disaster. Multi-generational problems are real too. Parents who weren't allowed to even drink from the same fountain as a white kid, will pass their pain down to their own kids.
Just count the number of black senators in relation to white male senators if you don't believe in systemic racism.
you chose to have unprotected sex presumably, thus it was your choice even if it was unintended and indirect. actions have consequences,
Actions do have consequences. But I was speaking of mistakes (which also have consequences). I did not "choose" to get pregnant or even to have unprotected sex. I "chose" to get drunk. That was my mistake. I was lucky. I didn't get pregnant. But if I had, I would have owned up to my mistake. I would not, and will not, condemn people for making mistakes. Maybe you don't make them. But some ENVIRONMENTS are more CONDUCIVE to causing its children and teenagers to make mistakes than others. How can you not see that?
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@BrotherDThomas
I am sorry about you being poor in your past, which Jesus chose for you in being omniscient, and because of this, did your piano only have 3 keys, hence your moniker name to remember it?
Piano? That's rich folk talk . . . I had a washboard and a spoon . . .
Furthermore, did you forget about this godly passage when you skipped the Sabbath? "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people." (Exodus 31:14).
Of course not. I just figured, even then, that the passage was ridiculous, written by a man (fallible) in a language (fallible -- any language, not just Hebrew or Greek) --- again by a man who "thought" he understood what God meant and then interpreted by other men (even more fallacy) "trying" to translate correctly. I never believed the Bible was infallible (despite what it said and what I was taught), even before I stopped believing. Maybe that made me a bad Christian at the time, but I honestly believed this.
Then what you have to realize AGAIN is that when Allah is omniscient, and just by the definition of the term, then there is no Free Will! HELLO?
Sorry. I don't buy that omniscience = no freewill.
Just because God "can know" every possible future, doesn't mean he doesn't hope his followers will make the right choice. Temptation exists in religion precisely to test the followers. If it weren't possible to choose correctly, then the test would be moot (i.e. Job). In fact, it seems to me that based simply on some of those "inconsistent" texts, God restricts his looks into the future, to mostly (not exclusively) events, and not on the "specifics" of each individual's behavior choices (damning or otherwise).
And don't just spout God hate speech at me, I ALREADY KNOW THAT GOD SAYS HATEFUL THINGS. And I know there is a scripture for almost everything.
In fact, if I did believe in a "Mr. God" (which I don't -- and a coin flip ASSUMES only 2 sides -- my agnosticism is a multiverse) I would have to believe in a God --- again, only if I was a Christian, who may have ALL KNOWLEDGE but who can make new connections and actually grow as a god. I know this flies in the face of everything Christians believe. But it makes sense if you understand that people are God's "new creation". In the OT he was different, full of rage --- smiting everything and everyone. In the NT he was starting to spout love, peace and forgiveness.
Now I know that this occurred because "people" were growing, not God. But if I chose to believe, I would like to compare God's knowledge to the alphabet (a trite example I know). He knows the entire alphabet (all knowledge), but likes to come up with new words and see how they interact to create new meaning. OKAY I'm DONE MAKING UP MY OWN RELIGION!
Lady3keys, have a great day "Coin Flipping Agnostic," and "2nd class woman" as my Christian Bible so states of your gender, praise Jesus!' true words!
I'm aware. Remember what I said about "fallible" men, writing in a "fallible" language, translated by more "fallible men"?
And remember what I also said. A coin flip ASSUMES only 2 sides -- my agnosticism is a multiverse.
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@Tradesecret
Where is the teacher part coming in ?
You said people are "God's creation" and he has the right to judge and to punish them. He cannot judge them unless he has first laid out the rules (taught them the rules they must obey or he will kill them in a flood). So the court "judge" in your example was a stand in for God. The 100 people on trial were a stand in for every living soul on Earth before the flood. And the 10 people the judge didn't find guilty were a stand in for Noah and his family. So instead of Creator and Judge, I used Father and Teacher.
In my example, the teacher threw out the question if 50% of the class missed it on a test. He maintained that if over half the class missed it, he had failed as a teacher. If your "court judge" had to find 90 out of 100 of his own children guilty of a serious crime (one that necessitated death), then I would say as a "Father" and "Teacher" (much as a "Creator" and "Judge"), he had (and has) seriously failed his children.
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Greta Thunberg (17 now) is up for the Nobel Peace Prize for addressing the UN and uniting nations to bring about real climate change -- not the USA of course. Trump dislikes Greta. He is also up for the Nobel Peace Prize.What does climate change have to do with peace? And I’d be more than happy to join a deal if every country had to achieve their goal by the same time. Not US by 2030 and China by 2050 - that just ships off our jobs to China
There is no direct line between climate change and conflict. That is why many think she didn't get the Prize last year. But this year she has been nominated again. She did get many nations to cooperate who hadn't come within a few feet of each other before. But that is hardly the same thing as "peace", even between merely two nations, let alone multiple nations.
And I agree that the climate change rules and goals for the US should be commiserate with the other First World Nations. The US should not allow China or any other nation to take advantage of us. But it is the very politics of this goal that make many want to considerate it for a Nobel Peace Prize.
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@BrotherDThomas
YOUR IGNORANT QUOTE RELATIVE TO THE RELIGION OF ISLAM:Welcome aboard DEBATEART Religion forum!
Thank you??????????????????? IGNORANT?? Bullying is not my preferred welcome, but what the heck . . . .
Okay. God commands many things in many sacred texts to many followers, both casual and fervent. I'm sure you can site examples until I am old and gray, from any number of religious books. But in my experience, most religious books are riddled with inconsistencies. Maybe the Qur'an is the exception. I don't know. But I would argue that it is impossible to follow every contradictory rule these texts describe. ENTER FREE WILL.
Even when I was a Christian (as a child), I did not "remember the sabbath". I had a paper route that kept me working both mornings and nights on Sunday. I even worked on Christmas morning. I had a choice. God commanded. I disobeyed. I just figured God wouldn't send me to Hell for trying to help my Mom pay the bills. It would have been hard to read the Bible without electricity. BUT I DID HAVE A CHOICE. God may have damned me, but He didn't take away my choice.
And if Muslims truly believe their lives are predetermined, then if they ended up paying the electric bill (in the above example), wouldn't that have been the right decision? How else could they have accomplished it? After all, it happened; it had to have been preordained.
Of course, it goes without saying (and yes, I am still saying it) ----- They always have the choice to say, "God wants me to do what???? Hell no! Any God that wants me to do that, is either crazy, evil, or NON-EXISTENT. I am 'friggin leaving this crazy religion!" :)
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@Lemming
Well, in war and politics, some say history is written by the winners.
Right. That was my point. The empirical evidence exists for the event itself, not each party's version of how it went down. I think we agree.
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@Tradesecret
I wonder what you would think of a court room scene where the judge heard 100 cases brought by the police? And in 90% of those cases the judge found them guilty and sentenced them. Would the fact that 90% of those people being found guilty be a reflection of the judge failing?
Absolutely, if the judge was also those people's father and teacher.
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@Lemming
And better progress could be made if more politicians made environmentalism part of their platforms and actions.
If only . . . . :)
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@Lemming
ell, how their religion is depicted and claimed to happen with history, 'is where theists would be biased I suppose.
Yes. But with history, as opposed to religion, there are more independent pieces of empirical evidence -- at least to support the event itself, not so much each party's personal version of these same events. :)
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@Tradesecret
Two really important things here provide an answer for us. God's action took place on two grounds. First, they were evil. Secondly, he had made them.
This doesn't really answer your question, but it is food for thought.
One of my professors in college had a policy concerning test questions. Many teachers have the same policy. If at least 50% of the class got a question wrong, it was thrown out. The professor explained that it was his job to "make us" into people proficient in the subject at hand (say Philosophy 101). if half the class missed the question, then "HE" was the problem, not the "STUDENT". If only a few people missed the question, then he "passed judgement" in the form of a grade.
This is ham-handed I know, but if your question is about God's right to wipe out his creation, then he needs to take responsibility for so MUCH of his class completely failing the course!
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@Lemming
Well . . . I would start by reinstalling the United States into the Global Climate Change conversation. You are right that politics will be a major problem. But this is an "Earth" crisis, not a "some countries but not our country" crisis. The carbon dioxide clogging up our atmosphere is above us all. A few countries reducing emissions just won't cut it. If we don't do something within the next few years, it will be irreversible. The worst thing we can do is nothing. Greta Thunberg (17 now) is up for the Nobel Peace Prize for addressing the UN and uniting nations to bring about real climate change -- not the USA of course. Trump dislikes Greta. He is also up for the Nobel Peace Prize.
But Greta or no Greta, this is a problem WE ALL CAUSED and WE ALL NEED to fix it. Only by working together can we hope to save the planet. This isn't hyperbole. This is simply very real.
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@BrotherDThomas
Let us pray for the loss of life on that memorable day of 9/11/2001, and the family members that miss their loved ones because our ever loving and forgiving Jesus part of the Abrahamic God is also to be held responsible in the murder of approximately 3000 of our US citizens 19 years ago. :(
I think you are over-emphasizing a made-up god's role in an entirely human atrocity. And even if, for the sake of argument, there is a god --- doesn't He give people free will (in between his serial killings of course -- your words, not mine)? Wouldn't that make 911 the fault of humans, not some physically non-present god? These were cold-hearted religious zealots. It doesn't matter what religion they used as their excuse. They were an offense to humanity and to people of faith.
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@Lemming
Localized climate change exists at any rate, and is disgusting, irritating, and annoying to deal with.Even dangerous at times.Whether a cities river being polluted, smog choking the city, cities and communities made of dump yards, or the Great Dust Bowl.All of these seem reason enough to me.And improving their condition, would go at least a ways 'toward the larger claims.
Local? Yes, but rivers flow between states and cars and factories are everywhere. We need a federally organized plan to make any progress. In California alone, the 6 worst wildfires of all time have happened in the last couple of months. We have yet another hurricane heading to the Gulf as we speak. Three 500 year floods have come in rapid succession in the last year. Climate change is not about the future. It is NOW.
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@Lemming
What's the difference between historical fiction, and history. When writers believe that they're merely making notes, or when writers are politically or otherwise biased?Degrees I suppose. Though degrees do matter.
In the case of Theism, historical fiction features a supernatural god at the center of most events, with some scattered cultural truths about the past thrown in. History, though heavily biased of course, features actual events at the center of their stories, with some scattered cultural fiction about a supernatural god thrown in (one that sanctioned their wars and motivated their atrocities).
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@secularmerlin
In this case it sounds as though your failings act as a cause. A catalyst to this reprogramming. If there is a cause then it is demonstrably cause and effect. There is at least cause and effect at work. Can you demonstrate more?
Well . . . (and it sounds like you at least minored in philosophy and I most certainly did not, but . . .), In general, everything has a cause. I'm not speaking of the Universe here, which, for all we know, could be like a beating heart that only "seems" to begin and end as it contracts and expands and therefore has always existed (or it could be finite, in numbers too big for us to fathom). Or the Universe could be a giant circle --- where our lives seem to be straight lines that begin and end, but are merely just a small part of the circle itself, which has always been and will always be, going round and round and round. :)
But I digress. Everything has a cause, at least in this universe. I just don't think "cause" completely negates free will. Cells are programmed through years of evolution to behave in a certain way. Once a cell is told to be a liver cell, it has no free will. It becomes a liver cell. All the "will" in the world will not make this cell change into a heart cell. But with genetic manipulation, we can now take a liver cell, starve it of "liver cell" food, and it will regress to a stem-cell stage. We can then feed it "heart cell" food and it will become a heart cell. Evolution programmed the cell. We "reprogrammed" it.
Life experience and biology program us. But with our prefrontal cortex we have gained the ability -- not just to play the video game -- but to reprogram it the way we would rather have it. It is difficult to wade through and understand someone else's code (ourselves), but it can be done. I call this partial freewill, because it requires a thorough knowledge of the code (self) and the appropriate skill level (behavioral programming) to accomplish it. But it still feels like hope and possibility to me.
THIS GOT TOO LONG. I HAD MORE. SORRY 'BOUT THAT.
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@Greyparrot
Nah fam. Being a teen mom is a choice. You don't become a teen mom because you don't have any money. You do it because the culture you were raised in expects you to become a WAP teen mom.
Are you always this offensive? I was lucky. If I had gotten pregnant, it would have been a mistake, not a choice. My mistake, yes. I would have owned it -- not CHOSEN it. No culture raises you to be a pregnant teen and certainly not a WAP teen mother. AND I THINK YOU KNOW THIS ALREADY! Stop generalizing ALL behavior based on really rich hip hop stars! I am beginning to think you must be really sexually repressed. You mention WAP and Cardi B alot!
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@secularmerlin
I am simply unable to maintain a belief in the absence of sufficient evidence and explaining why that is the case with regards to your argument.
My evidence is anecdotal at present and I am not trying to convince you to maintain or abandon any "belief" you have concerning free will. But as with most things, the truth usually lies between the two extremes (free will and no free will). That is the crux of my ideas. My evidence is merely my ability to notice my failings, to analyze them and to reprogram my habits and attitudes to create different output than would otherwise be possible. This is indirect free will (for me) --- not trying to change you here.
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@Greyparrot
48 percent of non-Hispanic black women get pregnant before age twenty. Of this group, 97 percent are unmarried and have little recognizable means of financial or emotional support. Less than 23 percent of fathers remain in the lives of the child, or offer any financial assistance. Sadly, more than a quarter of teen mothers will be pregnant again less than two years after giving birth the first time.
Really? Wow. You are describing poverty not cultural or racial characteristics. I have no contact with my father and certainly no financial support from him. I am currently unmarried. I am a single mother. I suppose, according to you, I am worthless. However, I am not black. I did not become pregnant as a teen. I am college educated.
I was raised in poverty and emotionally crippled in the same way many other poverty-stricken people are. It is NOT just a black thing. And yet, I got out. I worked my arse off and made it. Your attitudes confuse and dismay me.
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@secularmerlin
If you cannot demonstrate your claim then it deserves to be dismissed.
Rude, but accurate. I thought we were discussing ideas, not formally debating. Still . . . lesson learned.
However, I still think cause, and its eventual effect, is more likw a probability wave than a fixed boolean expression. And animals form habits through positive and negative reinforcement. So do we. But we can decide to change a bad habit and provide the reinforcement ourselves. We can provide the cue, the response and the reward that programs our habits. We can make a choice to reprogram. These are just ideas. You can dismiss them at "will". :)
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@Greyparrot
Thanks for being such a great role model for minorities Cardi B.
You are not the only one that finds Cardi B offensive. I don't like WAP anymore than you do. And I also do not like serial killers, which overwhelmingly seem to be white instead of black. Yes, there are black serial killers, but most are white. I don't blame white conservatives for serial killers -- that would be ridiculous. There is bad everywhere. You simply cannot blame overly-sexualized behavior on just hip hop or Cardi B types or even on single parent households. That is equally ridiculous.
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@RoderickSpode
He gave specific details on how to build the ship, but Noah had to still build it himself. and probably take charge in choosing at least some of the specific individual animals from each kind.If I was Noah, I would probably choose infants.
Assuming the story was literal and also had some supernatural "stuff" thrown in, then yes I agree. Assuming my only choice here is between adult animals or infant animals, then infants are the way to go. They're a lot cuter too!!!
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@Tradesecret
What is important is to understand the context - and to use that as a means of determining as best we can what he was trying to convey.
I can ABSOLUTELY agree with this. I do think the original meaning is very important. I would caution however, that the original meaning may not have been literal, especially considering the specific size limitations of the Ark.
Interestingly, I don't think I have actually used a religious argument. So when you say you don't believe my religious arguments - which ones are you referring too?
You didn't. I made an assumption based on your OP involving Noah's Ark. I apologize for this. I should know better.
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@Tradesecret
Just saying it - does not make it so. If we applied that test to the big bang fairy tale I suggest it would also fall fatally to logic. It after all is not subject to testability, It is not repeatable - it is unable to be put under a microscope. We are told it is true - and 99.999999999999999999999999% of the people in the world would be unable to explain it satisfactorily - such that simple logic would call it into question.
Um . . . it depends on what you are calling the "Big Bang". There was no "bang" if you mean sound, since sound is a vibration propagated through air -- and needs a receiver (an ear) to hear it. There was no bang because there was no air yet and certainly no ear.
But if you mean the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) which is the "relic" radiation left behind from the "sudden" appearance of energy that spans every corner of the universe ---- then YES IT CAN AND HAS BEEN "EXPLAINED SATISFACTORILY" as well as scientifically. We have detected (and functionally utilized) microwaves FROM the "big bang's" CMB for years. It is not a story. It is a factual reality.
The Big Bang is a bad example if you are comparing it to Noah's Ark, which is merely a story and may or may not be true. What cannot be proven about the Big Bang, however, is how or why it happened in the first place. But the fact that it happened is not in dispute, even if it is not perfectly named.
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@Greyparrot
So it's okay to make America great again?Cause Single parent homes raising highschool dropout thugs that resist arrest aint exacly a classical American tradition.
It is absolutely okay to make America great again. But we don't do that by allowing Amazon to pay zero taxes and making the lower-incomed masses bear the weight alone; by ignoring science and climate change; by corrupting the Constitution by making most of your Cabinet "acting" (to avoid Congressional approval); by soliciting foreign countries to help you cheat in an election; by using your power to pardon your co-conspirators, even those who have pled guilty twice; by lying to the American public about a virus that has killed over 193,000 people --- the list goes on and on and on.
As for single parent homes with high-school dropouts, I don't understand your reference. Trump has been President for 4 years and there are still high-school dropouts. I very much doubt that the number of single-parent households would drop significantly no matter who ended up as President.
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@secularmerlin
it is an unfalsifiable claim.empirical evidence is beyond me at this point.These two statements agree with each other.
They do not. They only prove that "I" cannot, not that others cannot.
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@RoderickSpode
One of the problems with this topic in general, when discussing it with non-Christians, we get stuck into this idea that we have to avoid the supernatural.
You're right. I do EXCLUDE the supernatural. But I don't just discount it with the God of Noah; I also discount it with the Greek god Zeus or the Norse gods Odin and Thor. I am just teasing a little. Honestly, I was merely referencing TradeSecret's OP about the "literal" possibility of adult or infant animals on the Ark. If the argument had included the "supernatural" ability of God to keep the animals from eating, then it would not have mattered if they were adults or infants.
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