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@Vader
Honestly, this going to sound so dumb and blatantly horrible but I honestly just had a brainfart. I also didn’t think it was enough of a big deal to try and correct and honestly thought it would go unnoticed. Sounds really bad but I believe I did those posts during work or right before and this week has been hectic so I honestly didn’t really care enough. Big mistake but the short sword confusing with the wiki argument and all that shit is 100% real and the correction Mharman made did happen
Appreciate your owning up to it, not sure how to take that.
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@ILikePie5
Any reason why you didn’t SOP this?
Considered it. Was planning to draw the NK if I could by softing a PR instead, but figured it wasn’t worth the CC. In this case, my decision came down to how much control I have over it. SOPs I’ve seen either force random action or make the choice entirely involuntary, which all makes sense to me. I figured if I could choose my target, there was also some chance I could at least partially confirm myself by being Tracked or something, if only by avoiding the NK target and not affecting night actions. Might not have been the right choice, but that’s where my thinking was.
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I meant someone else apart from the NK. Obviously, people would scumread me if that's how this goes and have good reason to do so.
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@JoeBob
I’m a bit rusty, what does the compulsive visitor do and why are people acting like it’s a scummy role
I'm required to pick a target every night to visit. That's all it does, which means if anything happens to my target, there's good reason to believe I was involved in causing it. It becomes my excuse for being seen visiting someone. As for why people think it's scummy, the combination of a pretty weak justification and covering for future night actions doesn't help. Unless someone sees me visiting someone else entirely and can somehow confirm I didn't do anything, I'm bound to be in PoE the rest of the game.
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@Lunatic
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@Mikal
I mean if I believe him I don’t believe you lol.
Still don't get the connection, but you've clearly got something in mind.
There are worse choices for a mislynch since I'm likely to be scumread based on any Tracking/Watching that goes on if I pick the wrong target. I'd prefer we don't seek more claims at this point since I'd rather not give away more town roles - we've already restricted who could have the PRs substantially given the claims so far - and you know my and Pie's current sus is on Vader, which is apparently making you second-guess that pick. I've been townreading Pie behaviorally and I like his reasoning, so I think pushing him is a mistake. If you and others thirst for one of our blood, might as well be mine.
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@Mharman
Was doing this on my phone, so yeah, forgot to ping.
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@Mikal
Not sure I see the connection, but since I believe him, that doesn't bother me.
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@Mikal
Told you you wouldn't like it, but you asked.
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@Mikal
Fine. Owl. I travel between buildings and make noise. I'm the Compulsive Visitor.
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@Mikal
I can’t explain it. I have this fucking radar with whiteflame and it’s going off
Considering you're basically town confirmed, I'll claim if you want. Don't think you'll like it, but not a lot I can do about that.
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@Mikal
My gut is telling me it’s whiteflame and I can’t explain why. It’s doing that shit where I just read him as scum
I'd be surprised if anyone's townreading me so far, but the gut scumread's surprising. I'll claim if pushed to do so.
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@Mikal
No I asked him to vote to test the dbl vote
Yeah, he clarified, makes sense.
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@Vader
This is the post I'm referring to, and it doesn't involve whether you should have heard anything from Mharman or not. I'd like to know what changed between these two posts, and why you initially didn't think there were tiers to the item considering a tier is literally mentioned in the justification you gave.
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@Vader
Meant revoting. Mikal asked me to unvote so I did
That makes more sense. I had no context for a revolt. Anyway, looking for some responses dude. Pie's made a pretty convincing case that you've contradicted yourself.
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@Mikal
UnvoteFor Mikal. Revolt after Mharman
So... Vader did post, and this is what he posted. Mikal, do you know what this is about? Is this about the mod confirmation and has he just given up or is that just me?
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The worst case scenario is that it was shock value. If that's bannable then you might as well perm ban some other users.
Clearly, we have different views of this case and others. I don’t have the time or the energy to argue them now.
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@LucyStarfire
All I am asking here is to change moderation log description to something like "banned over making very inappropriate and very offensive jokes about disturbing topics".
When I get a chance to sit down, I’ll take a look at it. That label does seem a bit much.
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@Mharman
I don't buy that for one second. I think what happened is a misinterpretation. But even so, I don't care about shock value humor. And of course the post was removed because the mods would rather powertrip and hide everything.
Whatever you want to believe, dude. I’m not in a position to disprove your view that it was a misinterpretation, and even if I was, I’m sure you’d still believe that was somehow our intention and disagree with our reasoning. I’m expecting to convince you and I’m not here to argue it.
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@WyIted
Don’t really get the decision to try to hide your double voter while voting, but that’s not how I think you’d play it as scum (seems like a weird way to give away your role regardless, but given the advantage it affords you as scum, it’s particularly confusing in that instance), so you’re in my town pile.
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@JoeBob
The fact that Savant CC’ed him, along with the points others have made about there unlikely being two vanilla.
I’d like to understand this: you think a scum Savant would CC a Vanilla role? I find that very difficult to believe, especially since this would be far from the first game with two vanilla players and it’s significantly larger than most other games. Just seems like a very odd move to CC someone with a fake Vanilla claim.
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@Mharman
I don’t have a screenshot to show you, as I didn’t remove the offending post.
All I can say is that RM’s statement is accurate to what I recollect of the post.
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After sleeping on it, I think it's more likely that Resurget just came up with that number of fake claims rather than scum slipped how many they were given. Doesn't seem terribly likely that the mod gave every scum member an individual fake full claim to work with anyway, and it does come across as a genuine error based on bits and pieces of information he had.
As for the VTNL irontoaster is suggesting, given that we have an even number of players, it's not something I would dismiss entirely so long as there is not a lynch most of us can agree on, especially since we have to rally 8 votes if we're going to get a lynch off. I still think Vader is a reasonable choice based on the information we have, but he hasn't posted yet today and I'm waiting to get his response to the contradiction pointed out by Pie yesterday.
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Looks like that registered so I'll:
Unvote
At least for right now, I see the most reason to lynch Vader, but I'm going to hold off on pushing him until tomorrow when he has a chance to defend himself. We've got a little under 38 hours left in the DP by my count, let's use them.
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@Vader
@ILikePie5
It’s a clear contradiction.
Fair point. I understood him being confounded by certain elements of his PM, but this does look like a clear contradiction. I can chalk up a lot of what seems authentic to him having the character as a fake claim.
Vader, can you make sense of why you made these contradictory statements?
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@ILikePie5
Did anyone witness this?
I didn't want to make a big deal of it because I know it's just frustrating to Mharman that this is a thing in this game and I want to respect what he's trying to do, but since it's come back... yeah, I saw the post. I was on at the time, refreshed the page, and it was gone.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Terraria Mafia #1 - DP1This is the post. He said 'fake claimS' plural then said full claims.
I can somewhat see where you got it if you combine different posts (the “three” specifically comes from a later estimate of the number of scum, which is a weak connection to Mharman’s statements), but I’ll note that even in that post, Mharman doesn’t confirm full claims. He confirms the existence of role and character fake claims for scum, which may work together or may not, may have justifications or may not.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
@ILikePie5
What makes you think they have 3 fake claims?
That’s a good point. Considering we were specifically told by Mharman that we would not find out the number, that sticks out. Could you explain why you said this?
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@ILikePie5
Lol Vanilla CC 💀💀
For anyone else who doesn't know: I literally did this on a live Discord game recently with WyIted. It was a small game and I didn't buy that there were two Vanillas in that game. I was wrong.
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Alright, going to give some thoughts on what I remember. Please forgive any exclusions - I'm trying to cover about 5-6 pages worth of posts and I'm bound to have missed some things.
Savant's a pretty strong townread at this point. CCing the Vanilla claim is just way too townie of a move to ignore, and there are elements of his claim and justification that lead me to buy it a little more than the others we have on the table based on my own character and justification.
Vader's an... odd case. I was going with Mikal pretty solidly up to the point where Vader clarified his justification in post #470. If this is his actual justification, then I can better understand his confusion over categories, since the justification literally mentions one, but his character itself does not include a specific category. I still can't say I'm buying into Luna's point about him visiting the Wiki being scummy - as with Casey, I visited the Wiki page for my character pretty early. I do have some uncertainty about there being two Vanillas in the game, but with 14 players, that's a pretty weak reason to scumread Vader at this point. As for the point about him claiming Vanilla being a sub-optimal choice if he was scum, I agree, but that also doesn't tell me much. Seen a lot of scum make poor choices before, made a few of them myself, and for all we know, Vader's the Ninja and we won't ever see him move regardless of what he does. I keep flipping back and forth as I write this out. I think I'm leaning slight scum on Vader, but that justification just keeps me second-guessing it.
Pie's been going through the DP right along with me and I'm a bit lost with his analysis, especially this view that it could be both Luna and Vader. The bus is always possible, but it seems implausible that Luna would specifically push attention onto his scum partner before he drew any attention himself. I don't view it as scummy to present that view because it is still possible, especially given how effective some early busses have been in recent games, it's just not what I'd consider most likely at the moment. I'd say I'm pretty null on his analysis, maybe slight town for drawing attention to himself by calling the bus (weird move if he's scum).
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@Mikal
You are the only one who’s replies this far but this needs to be done
Then I’ll be the first to address it:
VTL Mikal
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@ILikePie5
Could be the same reaction with the fake claims that Mharman provided.
I mean, that’s possible, I just don’t really buy it right now. This would be very unusual for Luna in particular, not just because of his response, but the nature of his claim.
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@Mikal
@Casey_Risk
So… yeah, this is a lot to process and I’m still trying to break it all down. Before I hop on my computer and type out some thoughts, you both have mentioned voting one of you and I haven’t seen a lot of people responsive to that. Is the idea to determine whether there’s a vote thief in play?
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@ResurgetExFavilla
What are your reads on Luna, Casey, and I?
Taking a second to respond to this before I continue.
Based on what I’ve read so far, Luna’s likely town. In part because of his frustration, but I just don’t buy that he’d go for the low-hanging fruit with the Strengthener. Luna goes all in with his claims, for better or worse, as scum. Doesn’t fit the pattern.
I’m null on Casey. Keep going back and forth - I think calling out the Vanilla claim due to the role madness setup gives him a bit of towncred (assuming it’s real, haven’t had a chance to look for it), but I also think Casey’s reasons for saying Luna was sus felt a little weak, mainly just supporting my view on Strengthener and claiming that Luna was buddying them.
As for you, I’d say slight town. I think the back-and-forth with Mikal looks more like a genuine coming around to his opinion than something manufactured. I’ll have to go back through your other posts, but you were largely null to me up until recently.
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@Lunatic
I genuinely don’t have time to argue this like a debater and go line-by-line through your responses, even if I wanted to. Got more than enough on my hands at work. I just don’t love the fact that you keep saying I’m doing things that I’m not doing. I never said you were game throwing, and it’s weird that you’d think I wouldn’t consider evidence to the contrary of what I’ve already stated or would go so far as to dig far back into the archives to search for counter-examples.
As for whether this matches previous games you’ve played as scum in terms of the thought you put into your claim, yeah, it doesn’t. It’s not consistent with how you behaved in that Microbiology game or what I saw you do there. Doesn’t mean it’s impossible that you’d behave this way as scum, but it’s something I’m considering.
Now I’ve got to focus on work for a couple of hours and this is drawing too much of my attention.
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@Lunatic
It’s not about my role or losing a strengthener. Idc about that. I’d be making the same case if I was a vanilla. It’s the fact that this is a lazy lynch based on what you think is a bad claim, something I have 0 control over. I was honest about my claim and it backfired. I could have lied as town and probably come up with a better fake claim than the claim the mod actually gave me, but being honest is backfiring on me which shouldn’t ever be the case. The fact that you lot think you know the theme better than the mod does that he wouldn’t make a role he literally made is hilarious but also baffling. If there was behavior reasons beside this that’d be another thing.Inb4 “we do have behavior!”
Considering my case doesn't rest on thinking I know the theme at all (again, never claimed to do so, and pointing out that the Strengthener claim is pretty safe doesn't mean I think it lacks applicability to the character) and that I've stated straight up that I think your behavior, even your obvious frustration, is NAI to me, I'm not really sure how much of this applies to what I've been saying. Seems like you're responding to other people. I also don't know why you keep saying that you should have just lied. Don't think the risk of getting CC'd outweighs your current situation, but what do I know?
Nah none of it was added until after I was already being pressured and crashing out for being pressured on my role alone. That’s a fact. Casey’s behavioral read was that she thinks my read on her was “buddying” her. Which is a dumb reason. I hate the buddying argument when it’s clear that I would take advantage of mislynch opportunities as scum. The only time I ever defend people as town is when I’m actually town.
I don't think it's accurate that you only defend others as town when you are town, but I'll have to read back through previous games to see if I've missed something that glaringly obvious. As for Casey's read, I don't see it the same way they do, so I'm still not sure why you're directing this at me.
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@Lunatic
None of this is personal btw I’m being a d1ck but it’s mostly because of Mikal, and I’m taking it out on everyone. Sorry. But if you lynch me for my claim over behavior I’m still gonna use this against you lol
I mean, fair enough, but being frustrated has never been all that important to alignment, at least not with you since this is far from the first time we’ve had it out and we’ve both done it as scum and as town. I think framing it as that this is how town will sink itself because we’d lose a Strengthener to a DP1 mislynch is a bit much, but I get why you’d be annoyed enough to say that.
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@Lunatic
Don’t give a sh1t dude just mislynch me. Go fvck yo urself
...I don't even have a vote up on you, I'm just clarifying my reservations with your claim. Calm down man.
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@Lunatic
@Vader
I am a shortswordMy PM was listed as Short Sword. That’s why I was so confused. Mharman clarified the issue and said it was one word
And that makes sense to me. Follows from what my understanding of his clarification was as well.
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@Lunatic
It’s frustrating because it’s entirely based on my claim. And you know me, I am not a shite fake claimed. Mike said this too, yet somehow all the focus is on how bad my claim is. You don’t think I would have come up with something better than strengthener? I literally cannot respond to wifom about why my role and character is what the mod fvcking assigned me to be. I figured being honest was the move here but now I am thinking I should have just lied and fake claimed as town because apparently you guys know more than the mod does about his own theme.
I can only speak to the obvious, dude. I'm not expecting you to justify the existence of a Strengthener, but the dejected throw up your hands response is not exactly helping your case, at least not with me. Sure, you could have come up with something better. You certainly have a tendency as scum to make risky claims. It's entirely plausible, though, that you were given Strengthener as a fake claim and went with it. Or you decided to play it safe with this claim for what you anticipated would be a longer haul game, given the number of players. I'm not saying this suits your usual scum playstyle, but I also can't ignore it.
And no, I haven't claimed to know anything about the theme this entire game. That's been part of Mikal's basis for pushing you, not mine.
I didn’t get that from his responses it seems like you are making that excuse for him but okay.
I don't know how you interpret this post by him clarifying the reason, but that's how I interpret it.
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@Vader
Normally I would 100% agree and back tracking would be 100% scummy. But please reference my original response where I claimed it did not have a category. I was clarifying simply that mine is a sole item rather than a category
Fair enough, though we still might need a character claim to understand how this could have happened. I'm not scumreading you for it, but I can understand where the doubt is coming from.
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@Lunatic
Wow you too huh? This might be the first time I’ve been mislynched in longer than I can remember, not to mention it’s day phase 1. And not a shred of a case against me is based on behavior either. This is pretty unfortunate.
...so I point out that the Strengthener seems a little sus (something that most anyone in here would say given that it's been used as a pretty safe fake claim in past games) and point to a disjoint between how your and my justification relates to the Wiki, and all I get is a "you too huh?" response? I've already said your behavior is NAI, I'm working with what I have that indicates something to me. For that matter, I haven't even voted for you, and I've said that several of the factors Mikal was considering don't seem to hold up. I get that you're frustrated, but the notion that there isn't a case against you at all just because few of us are scumreading you behaviorally doesn't hold up.
I think he originally planned to claim one thing and had to change his claim for some reason or another. I don’t buy that he just didn’t read his role pm correctly to see one word vs two. Makes no sense. And he literally lied about it in the next post and said he was reading it from the wiki. Why would he need to reference the wiki at all rather than his own role PM to begin with?
I'd be fine pursuing him for a character claim to see what this is all about. My impression from his responses was that it was listed as two words in his PM when it should have been one on the basis of how the Wiki portrays it. That may or may not be plausible based on his claim, but I don't think he lied about it. As for why he'd reference the Wiki at all, that's probably for the same reason I did: to get more insight into his character. I'd be surprised if he hadn't looked it up at all up to this point.
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@Lunatic
Thoughts on Vaders 226 and 229?
Not sure what you're seeing in 229 since it's focused on Mikal and whether he was effectively mod confirmed town. As for 226:
Going to redo this because I got a mod clarification. I have no identifier and appearantly I read this wrong. So my item does not have a category period. In the pm it was looked like 2 words when it really should’ve been 1. So no I have 0 sub category
That would be a confusing choice to make at this point. Maybe the aim was to avoid giving a character claim with a tier in it now that that's been flagged as potentially scummy, but he could have waited and seen if other people posted their own claims first and then tried to backtrack if no one had a tier. It could be a scum slip, but it's weird that he went about it this way and I can't say it reads as scummy to me.
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@Lunatic
@ResurgetExFavilla
@Mikal
I'm largely caught up. Seems like it's not impossible for someone to have a "tier" of item in this game, as Mikal put it. I doubt Resurget (been meaning to mention that I love the Mushishi pfp, great show) would choose to present that as scum after all the sus that has been thrown at Luna for his specification that he has a tier. I didn't know if Mikal was just going down a rabbit hole or not with this, but this clearly throws a wrench into his view that specifying the type of item/critter is inherently scummy.
I also can't say I read Luna's frustration as scummy - I think it's NAI since he's bound to be frustrated whether he's scum or town based on this fixation - but the claim sets me off a bit. Not so much for the existence of a loom in game (again, I don't know enough about Terraria to speak on that), but on the Strengthener claim, specifically. Since similarity to the Wiki has been mentioned, I'll say straight up that there's not a lot on the Wiki about my character, so there's not much to copy. The details of my justification aren't obvious from reading it, so Mikal may be onto something there.
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@JoeBob
if what mikal said is true though we get an easy town confirmed player/s
I don't think we should be discussing whether Mharman accidentally confirmed them. I think Mikal's town for other reasons (it may not seem like a lot, but his thinking on Luna makes sense and I don't think he'd fake that as scum), and I think overfocusing on a post like this isn't going to do us any favors.
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@JoeBob
If he deleted the post, he obviously doesn't want us to discuss it. Let's leave it at that.
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@Mikal
I think the theme is simple enough to notice and Luna claiming a subset of crafting station is weird. Hes the only person this far who is claimed a subset.
Well, if you're looking for an answer as to whether my character includes some kind of subset, I can confirm it does not. My character is a single word without descriptors or further specifications.
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@irontoaster
i would rather not give away the specifics of how it works, except to say the doctor should not protect me.
Realizing I want a little more clarity on this. I'm OK with you avoiding precisely specifying this role, but since this likely impacts multiple night actions, I'm going to ask: are you specifically saying the doctor shouldn't visit you, or are you saying no town role should?
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