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@Mikal
Please hammer
Alright. If we're going to do this, let's at least keep it to just the main offender.
VTL AR
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@Mharman
I’m either voting you or having you hammer Ultra. I’m settled on that choice. Do you want to take obvious scum with you or not?
Do you want to wait on a response to this or should I go ahead and hammer? Seems like he's not willing to do it.
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@Mikal
Fair enough. Once I'm done preparing this buffer solution, unless there's a really good reason to do otherwise, I'll hammer.
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@Mikal
Policy. Yea
After reading through 25 pages of this shit, I understand. Gimme a sec to catch up and see if I missed something.
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I'm not caught up yet, but reading through these posts is giving me a headache. Are we reconsidering the lynch on RM out of frustration?
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@AdaptableRatman
I'm trying to understand where you're coming from specifically and I'm failing. It's clear that you badly want Luna's lynch. Absent that, would you honestly prefer an Ultra lynch, despite the fact that it could result in us not reaching DP3 and having you confirmed?
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@AdaptableRatman
You gain nothing at all from vtnl.
I disagree that I gain nothing from a VTNL given that people will have night actions and those will inform us for the following DP. What I don't understand is why you think you gain nothing from a VTNL. Again: sets you one DP closer to confirmation at low risk. Why are you opposed to that?
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@AdaptableRatman
I don't love the idea of the VTNL, but if we're considering the probability of the Super Saint being real and actually want to pursue that lynch regardless, then that might be for the best. It also gives us one round of night actions to kick the tires and see if there's a better lynch on offer. I can at least see the play. What I don't understand is statements like this from you:
I am obviously against NL as it ruins my role's power to lead dp3 and because I know I am town.
What do you stand to lose, exactly? You get to DP3, thus you get the opportunity to reveal yourself as the Innocent Child. That should be your priority, since by then, you would absolutely be confirmed and your word would have a great deal more merit to it. Are you just frustrated that it means you don't get to decide the lynch DP1 or, potentially, DP2? Because that's not likely regardless of what we do.
A lot of the rest of what I'm seeing is just theorizing about the ways Luna could be manipulating perceptions of various players during this DP, particularly Ultra. If you want Ultra's lynch, you should be entirely onboard with the VTNL because, again, it accomplishes what you want just with a single DP delay while simultaneously ensuring your confirmation. If you just want to lynch Luna, I guess you have reason to be upset, but I don't see good reason to VTL him this DP. I can entirely understand his frustration, even if it's not the right move to have pursued your lynch on that basis.
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@AdaptableRatman
Been working through voting on your debate. Now that that's done, I'll catch up and we'll see where I land.
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Sorry, been a busy morning at work.
Regarding Barney, his relative lack of participation is a problem, but I'd still like to see him give more thoughts than just further establishing his read on Ultra. I think just lynching someone who is relatively inactive would be a pretty lazy choice.
His stance on Ultra at least seems to be coming into focus, since he's focused on the mechanics of the role and how well they fit the character. While Joan of Arc certainly didn't kill others after she died, I think the application here may just be on the "Saint" title and its association with the name of the role. That could be a hastily thrown together fake claim or it could just be what Savant thought suited the character regardless of how well the mechanics matched the character. I think it would be a very odd choice for a fake claim since it draws so much attention to him, hence I think it's more likely the latter than the former, but the fact that Joan of Arc is even in this game is pretty baffling.
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Alright, some expanded reads.
Mharman - Seems like his attention is mostly split between Ultra and Casey in terms of scum reads. I'm interested to see what his thinking is on Ultra now that AR has claimed DP3 Innocent Child, but I don't really get why he's so set on Ultra being scum based on that claim beyond looking back at my claim from the Bo Burnham game. The Super Saint is certainly a little off, but I'm not seeing Mharman consider Ultra behaviorally, just automatically pushing for the lynch based on the role claim. By contrast, his read on Casey seems based on Casey's drive to figure out the theme split. It's an odd place for Casey to start, but going so far as to say that Casey should hammer when Mharman believes that Ultra's role is real (though the scum variant) is taking it a bit further than I'd expect for that opening read. Mharman just seems to be taking very strong views on his two early scumreads, which doesn't seem in line with his usual behavior. That being said, he didn't seem to be rushing any of the lynches and he hasn't chimed in in a few hours, so I'm null on him until I see his response to AR's claim.
Earth/WyIted - Not a lot to read from the former, though he does get out a couple of townreads and has an incomplete list of players at the end (not sure why I was left out). The latter is a bit more focused than usual, engaging in a lot more of the back-and-forth without as much fluff-posting as we've seen from him before. It's a bit of a shift in behavior, but being more focused isn't going to shift my perspective on him one way or the other. Null.
Barney - Milk. Sus. Null and waiting for more.
Casey - Haven't seen too much of their posts of late, another one I'd like to see respond to AR's current role claim. Casey's been pretty open with some info about their character without revealing too much, though that was admittedly after Mharman mentioned that Casey had suggested softclaims without providing their own. I don't think all the theme analysis is all that helpful without more information, and especially if Joan of Arc is in this game, the distinction between waves of feminism probably won't cut it. I wouldn't expect Casey to just narrow their claim like this if they were scum, at least not based on previous games, so that balances to null, maybe slight town read.
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@Barney
Thank you, once I'm done being milked, you'll get the first cup!
I'm both deeply concerned and intrigued to see it... why am I like this?
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Alright, back at it and providing what I can find for claims and softclaims.
1. whiteflame - Alive (softclaim)
2. Casey - Second-wave feminism (softclaim)
3. WyIted/Earth
5. Lunatic
6. Ultra - Joan of Arc - Super Saint
7. Barney
8. Mharman
9. AdaptableRatman - Malala Yousafzai - DP3 Innocent Child
The long and short of it is, immensely frustrating as AR's performance has been this game, he's made it impossible to ignore his claim at this point and it is mod confirmable. I don't love that that will take until DP3 to confirm, but either he's announced innocent or he isn't. That's out of our hands.
That does mean we have to get to DP3, so I agree we should be avoiding lynching Ultra unless we have very good reason to believe he's lying.
Unfortunately, I don't have a very good alternative ATM, hence I'm just trying to gather information. This back-and-forth between Mikal and Luna feels very town v. town. Casey's decision to narrow in on the era of feminism their character belongs to pretty closely makes me think they're both pretty knowledgeable about the theme and likely had this character early, so either Casey had a fake claim waiting or this is their real claim. Can't say too much about either Barney, WyIted/Earth or Mharman, have to read back through the latter two's posts.
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@Lunatic
I don't think the majority are leaning ultra, I think its AR
That's my impression. I understand that lynch a great deal more because AR's made pretty clear that he's going to be hard if not impossible to get a straight answer from until DP3.
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@AdaptableRatman
If forced I have a claim. Once I claim you are doomed.
I don't understand why you see this as a meaningful threat. Your willingness to lie about your role repeatedly and stonewall any other attempts makes any claim you make at this point suspect.
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I understand why people are sussing the Super Saint claim from Ultra, but I just don't buy that this is a fake claim. I think Mharman has the right of it: this would have to be his actual claim (say, Suicide Bomber) and he just repackaged it as Super Saint with Joan of Arc, someone who fits the bill well. Maybe that happened, but I'd give it an outside chance at best. I don't see Ultra running that kind of gambit, at least not based on anything I've seen him do as scum. I'd say it's more likely he's town than not. The only reason we lynch him this DP is out of an abundance of caution (he's likely to remain in PoE with that claim and the later we lynch him, the more damage doing so will do) or as a means to both test him and eliminate someone else who would otherwise be the lynch.
I'd prefer just lynching the person we think is most likely scum, but if the majority think that's Ultra, then I guess we have to have a pretty solid second pick hammer.
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@Mikal
So, because it’s come up, I guess I’ll just address the Discord thing. I’ll keep this to one response.
You do not know what my activity regularly looks like on Discord. I’d be happy to send you a screenshot of all the servers I’m on and you can see where I spend my time (spoilers: it’s a lot of anime and a few debate servers). It’s especially weird that you’re calling me out for this when we just had a substantial conversation about the bombing of Iran yesterday. You are not the only person I’ve discussed that with, yesterday or today.
If you want to sus my Discord activity, whatever, but this is not an abnormal level of activity when things are… well, whatever suffices for normal these days.
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@AdaptableRatman
Will you vote Lunatic with me?
No, and frankly, reading over your posts this DP has just been mind-boggling. It would be one thing to just be adamant that you wouldn’t claim DP1 despite being at L-1, something you claimed no one should ever be allowed to do, but you have since gone ahead with this baffling strategy of lying about your role, stating that you lied, and telling us all just to wait until you’re confirmed. There’s being defensive about your claim and then there’s just making it impossible for town to trust you. I honestly don’t know how you can keep demanding that people sheep your vote on Luna when you’re actively telling us over and over again that we can’t trust your claims and should just accept as gospel that you will confirm yourself in DP3. That’s a lot to expect when you’ve been this difficult.
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@Barney
A friend invited me out to lunch, and now we’re attending a Thai festival.That said, I can’t imagine what information has come out in DP1 to merit 10 pages and counting… So my catchup will inevitably end up being a bit like Swiss Cheese.
Sounds like a good time. Just catch up when you can.
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@Barney
I've got a meeting to attend this afternoon, but I'll be back on in a few hours. Barney, in particular, I'd like to see more activity from. You hopped on a couple of hours ago, said you were getting caught up, and then never posted again.
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@AdaptableRatman
Okay vote me then to force the claim but it helps scum narrow down their night actions.
Like I said before, I don't see your behavior as scummy, though it is different. I don't like how defensive you're being about your claim, but I'm not going to push for it right now.
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@AdaptableRatman
If I fullclaim will you vote Luna with me 0 question asked yes or no
I'm not automatically sheeping you and I haven't formed an opinion on Luna, so no.
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Oops, meant the above to just go to AR. Sorry for the tag Mikal.
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@Mikal
@AdaptableRatman
Lunatic is fabricating reasons to vote me after I made it clear Scum not knowing my role hurts them.
Doesn't seem fabricated to me. I don't see you as scummy, but I understand where he's coming from.
I will lie. I guarantee it.I may be protective btw. I have my reasons to not out. I may be 2x, even nights, other things.Utility is more likely what I am, in the pool of roles.My character is also problematic to claim.
You've thrown out a lot of potential claims, so I don't know why suggesting possible areas your role falls into helps at this point. All you're doing is slightly restricting what you could claim, and not to a point I'd consider meaningful.
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@Mikal
I never remember Ragnar being active or high energy lol.
He's had his games where he's more active, but most of my experience with him has been low activity.
Both around the opinion on ultra. Both seemed like opportunistic pushes but left open enough to back off if needed. Like fishing for a wagon
I don't think I pushed on Ultra, but yes, we both discussed opinions regarding the timing of his arrival and his claim.
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@Mharman
I’m implying it’s literally that lol
Fair enough.
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@AdaptableRatman
I have a role that needs to be kept secret from mafia to be fully useful.They can avoid me mattering by certain night action choices.I am ok with them NKing me if needed. I am not ok full outing.I will literally lie about my role if needed and clarify later why.I recommend Town visiting roles to avoid me, I will be dead or likely proven later.
Most roles are best kept secret from mafia, though some do have more utility when kept secret, so I think that's what you're hinting at. I won't speculate on the specific role. I don't know why you'd just outright say that you're going to lie about your role if you're pushed to claim.
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@Mikal
Doe which portion. The town or scum read on both?
Guess I'm mainly wondering why you see AR and me in a similar light either way.
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@Mikal
If ultra is scum prob means rm and wf are townIf ultra is town strong scum read on both of them
For mentioning that the timing of Ultra’s arrival in the DP was convenient or for pointing out the oddness of the claim?
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@Mharman
I am reminded of Bo Burnham Mafia, where Whiteflame claimed the exact same thing.
It was Suicide Bomber, but yeah, same idea. I’ll note in that case I was just hoping to pass off my actual role as town, so circumstances are at least different here.
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@Ultracrepidarian
I am Joan of Arc, so I'm super saint. Whoever hammers me dies immediately.
Huh, that’s different. At least based on my character and Mikal’s claim, I’d assumed a largely modern set of characters in this game. She’s on theme and the connection to the role makes sense at least.
Maybe this can be grounds for softclaiming: is your character alive or dead? Mine is still around.
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@AdaptableRatman
Yes that is scummy. Why did he know I voted him to show up fast to say Hi and only Hi?Offsite comms? This is not the same type of lurking he did prior.
Hadn’t considered that, but it’s a fair point. The timing could just have been coincidental, still need to see more from him today.
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@AdaptableRatman
Vote Ultra please.
He at least posted that he's here (which makes him more active so far than Barney and Luna), so I'll see what his contributions look like tomorrow when I come back. For now, signing off.
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@Earth
I don't think Hated Townie is a particularly risky role to fake claim, especially if you have 2 questions to ask if x role is in the game. I'll town read Mikal because he strikes me as a very methodal player and he posts strike me as him reporting his role, offering a SoP lynch and him saying his role deactivates.
Fair enough reasons to townread him, so I won't argue with you. I just don't really buy that Mikal would enter into scum chat, quickly ask about the existence of a Hated role, and then just go for an SOP claim, especially without knowing whether it turns off MYLO/LYLO. Just seems like something he'd be more prepared to answer if this was all planned out.
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Alright, so 3 pages, but not too much content to cover. Looks like there was a lot of discussion around blacklisting (I'll say straight up that I agree with Mikal and Casey on this front - I think disagreements over strategy and SOP should not be a basis for removing someone from all future games), some discussion of how AR should approach this game based on his own questions (not a lot to say in response to those questions, since they will largely depend on how he wants to play the game and how well he can rally support for a lynch).
Mikal has claimed Clementine Ford and, after some digging, this does indeed appear to be the woman from Australia who tweeted such gems as “kill all men,” men should be “shot into the sun,” and that Covid wasn’t “killing men fast enough.” Delightful, certainly seems like it merits the Hated label. I hadn't heard of her either. Good news that it sunsets at MYLO/LYLO apparently (if I read Mikal's later response right), so at least it doesn't allow scum to effectively end the game early. He would have had to pull this claim together very quickly and be pretty ballsy to risk a CC to do it, so I do think he's more likely town.
I like seeing all the various theme split ideas from Casey, though I'm going to exercise caution in how far we apply them. It's been a while since I've gone down the theme split rabbit hole, but it often got me lost in the weeds and had me ignoring behavioral reads. There might be some basis for pursuing softclaims as well, but I'm hesitant to narrow the field of character claims early.
As for whether there are fake claims in this game, that depends on Pie's influence. He tends to like to give scum two character and two role claims (as I've been doing in my games), so that may be the case here. Savant may have gone his own way with that part of the setup. Regardless, I don't see them looking at the last game and thinking that the absence of any fake claims for scum was a good idea, so I'm guessing they have something in place.
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Alright, spent enough time talking about very recent events with my family. I'll catch up and give my thoughts.
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@AdaptableRatman
That's a big "if" since it didn't seem to be his intention with the role. Could've balanced it a bit, no way we would have known that but we would have gotten lucky if so since Pie would have been our target.
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...alright then, wasn't expecting this thing to start on before Sunday. I'll do what I can today, but activity's going to be limited until tomorrow.
Give me a bit and I'll contribute what I can tonight.
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@Casey_Risk
If the mods tell me to change it, I'll change it. Otherwise, I'm leaving it.
Just for the sake of clarity: you will not be required to change your picture. I think a 13-year-old can stomach it just fine.
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@AdaptableRatman
1) passionate debaters here will suffer due to doxxing potentuality of this, especially as we have not cleaned things up yet but even then users like me live in fear 'islamophobe' comes to mind.
They can choose to opt into and out of it at will knowing what it means to participate. Doesn’t seem like a problem so long as participants are aware that their debate profile name (or whatever other name they go by) will appear on the video and may connect them to other places where it is used.
2) the entire community of mafia here has 0 to do with the site. It is able to be eradicated and the site has to be built for actual 1v1 debating.
Just straight up disagree with this. Just because the site has “debate” in the name doesn’t mean anything else should be off-limits.
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@AdaptableRatman
…wasn’t it your argument that fear of my being doxxed and cancelled led me to stop debating? If that was true, why would it matter what I debated?
And FYI, I did in-person debates for about a decade before I even found this site and the topic range was plenty wide. I didn’t get to select my topics there and I have a long track record with my real name attached.
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@AdaptableRatman
…so you believe that I and others largely stopped debating because someone might be able to tie our profile on here to our actual names and “cancel” us based on our views? Not sure how they’d go about that, but as someone who has done and posted several live debates on this site, that’s never been a concern of mine and it won’t start being one just because I participate in live mafia games posted on social media.
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@airmax1227
@Mikal
I know I’m excited for this. Thanks to both you and Max for setting all this up and I’m happy to take part! Hope we can round up even more people to participate and enjoy some of the frenetic energy of these games.
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Depends on when this is starting. If it's towards the end of the weekend or early next week, I'm /in, but please don't let it start between now and Saturday.
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@AdaptableRatman
The way Pie describes it is accurate to how I've seen it done before. The idea is to punish town for lynching the Beloved Princess and punish scum if they kill them. Double-edged sword where keeping it secret is the best strategy.
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@ILikePie5
I actually clarified with Earth tho on Discord. Like what happens if I hammer a Super Saint. He said DP gets skipped. So I think he just phrased it wrong.
Oh well, yet another way that we were probably doomed early in this game. Even fewer levers we could pull to win than I thought, and a lot of trap doors.
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@AdaptableRatman
Now I know why Wylted baited the NK to Pie, Pie misunderstood his role.
Yep... makes it all the more frustrating we couldn't get that NK off.
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@ILikePie5
If you are killed during the Night, the following DP will be skipped.
AR's right on this one. Would've been bad if we'd NK'd you.
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@Casey_Risk
Honestly, given the circumstances, I think we did what we could. Claims were always going to be a shot in the dark to some extent. Still good being on a team with you again.
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