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@ILikePie5
@Moozer325
I totally agree with you about pie here. If you can give us a better claim, I'm with you if you want to go after him next, but I need that claim first.I’m interested to hear your thoughts on this comment by Moozer
It’s pretty odd that he agrees with Barney and wants a claim from you, but is still pushing for Barney to claim first. I get the impression that he’s trying to feel out both of you with the belief that one of you is scum, but it’s an odd way to approach it. If he really susses you, then that’s where his vote should be. I get that he’s new to this, but he’s handling his sussing strangely.
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@Barney
There may be some reason why you are avoiding full claiming here, but as someone who saw you do this last DP when you were town, I’m having a harder time in this game understanding the reticence. Maybe I’m just not picking up on the same signal I did then, and whatever role you have is something you’re just that desperate to hide, but regardless of what it is, I don’t think it’ll do us any good if it remains hidden at this point. You’re as likely as anyone in this DP to become the lynch target if things stay like this, so I honestly can’t fathom what calculus would make holding back on the claim the better choice. If you want to put attention elsewhere, then this is the only way it’s going to be taken off of you.
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@ILikePie5
Can we now plz pursue a full claim from Barney
He's at L-1. Ball's in his court.
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@ILikePie5
Okay so the investigation wasn’t reflexive. Am I understanding that correctly?
I had a choice as to whether to use it and I chose my target, yes.
You of your own volition chose Earth to investigate. May I ask why?
Of course you may.
First, as I signaled at the end of the last DP, he was my trickiest read. I wanted to either have a target to sus this DP or be able to eliminate him as a plausible target of suspicion.
Second, after I received the PM, I agonized over who would be most likely to give me this and believed that most anyone else would have been more likely, since I figured Earth didn't solidly townread me following on DP1. I believed he was about as likely as you were to send this to me, so I flipped a coin. This is how the coin landed.
It doesn’t fall in the tactic or strategy bucket. It falls in the platform bucket. Basically on what the players play
It's a means by which players can have AI direct their tactics, hence I put it in the tactics bucket. I don't really care to argue how we should perceive it because, either way, it's distinctly different from the other claims made so far and from mine as well. They are all markedly different.
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@ILikePie5
I wouldn’t consider those tactics in a chess context. Pawns are not tactics.
I said Stockfish functions as something I would put in the “tactics” bucket. I agree, neither Castling nor Pawn obviously falls within a similar bucket, that’s why I said they’re an individual move and a piece, respectively.
My character is more unique than what’s been claimed so far. I would urge you to force Barney and Vader to full claims
I’m going to need something more than that, some bucket that this falls into or is associated with. I can push for full claims after everyone has given a softclaim. This is too vague.
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@ILikePie5
Alright:
I received a PM from Austin saying that I had an opportunity to use a chess engine at the cost of my night action. If I used it, it would allow me to find out the alignment of my target during that NP.
I accepted. I targeted Earth. I was told he was innocent.
After the fact, I was told that this ability could not have been redirected or roleblocked.
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@Earth
Thinking about it some more, I feel like WF hasn't really proven himself to be town. I kinda regret claiming my character and not giving WF the chance to out his innocent on me first, but it's something.
Honestly, I haven’t. Wouldn’t be surprised if most people null read me at this point. And yeah, would’ve been nice if I’d had time to post the innocent result before you claimed, though you can at least keep some things about your role in the dark.
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@Vader
None. Granted my character has to do with something with one of the categories. But it does really fit that category though
Alright, could you at least state what category it includes? I understand that your character doesn't fit into said category, but I'd like to narrow the window a bit.
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Apologies, I somehow flipped Earth's role and character. Fixed.
Dashboard
PLAYER ROLE CHAR__________ _NP1
2. Pie ??? ???
3. whiteflame ??? "tactic" Copped Earth Inno
6. Lunatic ??? ???
7. Vader ??? ???
8. Barney ??? "tactic"
9. Earth "chess engine" Stockfish Gave WF chess engine
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@Moozer325
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@Vader
@ILikePie5
Alright, given that we're not getting traction on the effort to get a claim out of Barney (at least for now - I'll come back to this), I'd like to at least start getting a set of softclaims, which could help with some theme analysis. The difficulty is, as Pie expressed early in the DP, there isn't a lot of overlap between the claims on the table: Algebraic Notation, Pawn, Stockfish, Castling.
That being said, it wouldn't be the first time I've seen a game where scum have a uniting theme and town just doesn't, and so I'd like to at least start to narrow the window for everyone who currently has not softclaimed. I've already stated that I'm also a strategy, so I'd put myself in the "tactic" bucket as well. I think Luna has been pushing a soft claim since the start of the DP, but I'd nonetheless like to get some clarity as to which camp he falls into. So far, we've seen tactics (using Stockfish), individual moves (Castling), and pieces (Pawn). Algebraic Notation is more just a descriptor that covers all these things to some degree.
So if you fall into one of these camps, state which one, and if not, state what camp you do fall into. Since I haven't seen evidence of a softclaim from either of you, I'm tagging you two first, and I'm taking my vote off for now.
Unvote
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@Lunatic
@Moozer325
So to clarify, you declined access to the chess engine? Were you told what it would do?
I was told I would receive the alignment of the player I chose. I used it. I was told I could accept or decline, and I chose to accept, targeting Earth.
Also, to your point about whether Moozer is BG or some other protective role is valid, but I did ask him about that last DP and never got an answer. So I left my initial assumption up. I've tagged him again on this in hopes that he'll clarify.
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Earth: Strong town. At this point, the double confirmation should ensure that he's basically guaranteed to be town, especially given the info I received afterward regarding the inability of scum to redirect or prevent me from using the 1X Cop. I'm frustrated that I ended up double confirming him instead of getting insight into someone else, but we have no reason to doubt Earth at this point. Even if you doubt me at this point (and frankly, I haven't confirmed myself just by using the role I was given), he's pretty solid.
Moozer: Lean town. The only way I could reason that he was scum based on anything he's done (and it's not a lot) is based on his claim, and much as I buy the possibility that he has a scum partner who came up with it, I don't buy that said scum partner also told him to out that claim without pressure. That does not add up to me. Behaviorally, he's null, but since this is what I have to go with, that's where I'm placing him.
Luna: Very slight townread. I'm having a really hard time reading him this game. For the most part, I like his reads, but I don't get seeing Pie as his top town read given what's been revealed so far. He suggests there's some other reason for this view, but in the absence of more information, I'm kind of puzzled on why he thinks Pie leans so hard into town. He's been incisive, and in DP1 I read his behavior as town, hence the townread.
Pie: Probably the closest to a town lean based on his behavior last DP, though in my reassessing things this DP, he ends up more null to me, particularly after those reads. Just like Luna, he's not very specific about what makes Luna look townie to him beyond being more incisive with Supa. I get that that makes it less likely that they're a scum team together, but he seems to be hedging a bit on this read with the "but you never know" at the end. I guess he's ending up with Barney in scum through PoE and frustration that he hasn't answered questions yet, which makes more sense to me given what I know of Barney's behavior as scum. The fact that he's claimed to have a confirmable role means he'll either be cleared or at the top of my scum list next DP, so he's not the focus of my attention right now.
Barney: There just haven't been enough posts for me to make heads or tails of his behavior so far. I'd support at least getting a character claim from him at this point, since he's currently the player we know the least about behaviorally beyond Moozer, and that's not something I'm willing to let slide.
Vader: I still have to go back through DP1 to see if his shift to voting JoeBob makes sense based on how he posted (he seemed very adamant that it wasn't JoeBob for a while and I'm still not sure what convinced him). Also, he currently has Moozer in his PoE and I just don't understand his reasoning. So Moozer, who has largely been absent from this game, is also a part of a pretty quickly performing scum team (that was not a long NP) and likely contributed to the Savant NK, despite having a partner who is significantly more experienced? I don't know where that read is coming from. I do see the potential of buddying between Pie and Luna, but his basis for sussing them beyond that seems pretty weak.
So, I'd like to pursue more info from Barney first. Vader would be my second choice, though we can discuss that after Barney claims at least his character. VTL Barney. I want that sandwich.
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@ILikePie5
Who would you like to pressure? Vader or Barney? Also reads?
I'm working on it. Rarely ever make these posts short.
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Dashboard
PLAYER ROLE CHAR__________ _NP1
2. Pie ??? ???
3. whiteflame ??? ??? Copped Earth Inno
6. Lunatic ??? ???
7. Vader ??? ???
8. Barney ??? ???
Killed/Lynched
I think that about covers what we know so far.
Also, I was told this after the fact: the action I took was not considered an "active action." I asked for clarification, and what that means is it doesn't behave like a normal night action. It wouldn't have been affected by a roleblocker or redirector (yes, he did say that specifically). So, while a Godfather might fool it, I think we can confidently say that the result is the one I got on Earth, not the result of some change of target.
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@Barney
Maybe I'm misreading this... Austin is the host, so what are you trying to say?
I received a PM from the mod (Austin) saying that I had access to the "chess engine" as a result of something that happened. It was not stated who I received it from, but with Earth's claim, I think we can assume it came from him. What's unclear?
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@ILikePie5
I'll take it. Honestly would've been suspicious of him all the way up to the end.
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@Vader
Savant getting killed is weird to me
Yeah, it's kind of baffling. Savant would have consistently been a target of some suspicion and, given that he said he couldn't confirm the second aspect of his role, I wouldn't have seen him as much of a risk to leave alive.
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@Earth
Do not specify your role any further. I'm not sure whether you're a one-shot or a multi-shot, but you should not reveal it.
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@Lunatic
During the NP, I received a message from Austin saying that I was granted access to a "chess engine" at the expense of my night action, which functioned as a 1X Cop. Based on the claim he just gave of Stockfish (which is a chess engine), I can confirm that he targeted me. Unfortunately, I made the decision to target him (he obviously copped innocent), so he's basically double confirmed at this point.
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At minimum, we can at least get some insight into potential theme splits based on the flip.
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@ILikePie5
Yeah, I’ll just hammer. At this point, I see no better options and, even given how perplexed I am that either scum or Austin would come up with this particular role, just the fact that the cat’s already out of the bag about it makes the information we could garner from it pretty weak and only accessible by wasting a future lynch, which we can ill afford to do. If he flips town, it’s not a substantial loss, but he does come off as scummy in a way no one else does.
VTL JoeBob
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After reading through the DP again, I haven't changed my thoughts substantially, but I'll add to my post from last night:
Savant: Suffice it to say that, while I don't want to pursue a full claim right now, I'll be looking to fill in the gap in his role next DP. He says it can't confirm him, but I'd like to at least get the info for the purpose of understanding the justification (i.e. what makes the Pawn and role relate), given that he's admitted that the Miller is not all that great of a match. I'm not currently sussing him, but while I'm lightly townreading his claim so far, the missing element makes me nervous.
Pie: The aggressive behavior he has displayed so far falls in line with what I'd expected whether he's town or scum. I usually (as with last game) have trouble reading Pie this early based on behavior alone, and that's no different here. He's null to me.
Moozer: One of the two people I'm townreading most so far, though both aren't strong reads. If he's scum, he's on a team with someone who has been scum before and they at least would know that it's a mistake to out their role without pressure, particularly in the absence of any fake claims. He hasn't contributed enough that I can say anything about him beyond that, but it's enough for now.
JoeBob: My read of him hasn't changed. Either this is a thrown together fake claim that is perplexing or it's one derived by Austin that seems purpose-built to be frustrating. Even if he hadn't outed his role, we'd have to hope that he draws the NK just to give town information from his Tracking... that took place in previous NPs. I don't think we stand to gain a lot of information from this role regardless of what we do, though as Barney pointed out, it's possible that he could use this role twice before we're effectively forced to lynch him. There may be value in that, but getting people onboard for two VTNLs with this information seems unlikely and includes its own risks. Top of my scum pile atm based chiefly on his claim and how he has responded to being sussed over it.
Lunatic: Luna has come off as pretty methodical so far. I haven't seen anything that stands out from his posts so far, and his reasons for pushing on JoeBob make sense. Slight townread.
Vader: I'm of a similar mind with Luna that it's odd how much pushback Vader was exhibiting against the behavioral reads on JoeBob before deciding he was the most viable lynch target. Beyond that, I don't think Vader's said anything that looks particularly off and I think he's had some decent insights, but this decision to change tactics did stand out to me. Slight scum read.
Barney: Not a lot of contribution early on. I largely agree with what he said in this post, both with regards to Savant and JoeBob's claims, though much of his thoughts on the latter is largely repetitive of what was said before. Null.
Earth: Tricky to read him right now. All of his posts have been pretty short and not very insightful. He's pushed back on sussing JoeBob several times now, largely on the basis that it's a complex role and therefore not one that he would come up with himself. Speaking as someone who has worked with JoeBob as scum, I did help him with his fake claim in that game, even if it was largely for the sake of clarifying a fake role claim given to us. It is a little of a complicated role, but he has had ample time to clarify it by now, and it didn't come off obviously in those first few posts. Also, weird that he offered to softclaim and just never did. I do find this behavior a little off, but I also have trouble seeing him as a scum partner for JoeBob.
Unless someone has a better choice that isn't just pushing on another player for inactivity, I'm leaning toward lynching JoeBob right now, though I'd like to at least see Vader's response to Luna before committing.
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I'm not terribly interested in getting more claims, either, and Barney's relative inactivity up to this point isn't enough to justify seeking a claim from him. If he's not active next DP, then we can talk about it, but I agree with Luna that it's not going to help town to have more claims this DP.
As for my general thoughts, I'm still leaning towards JoeBob for reasons I've already covered. I don't really buy it as either a good fake claim or something that Austin would have come up with, but it does actually make more sense if the role was cobbled together on the fly. Behaviorally, I still don't think he stood out much before he started trying to explain how his role works.
With regards to others, I still feel Savant's claim is a little off, but it's less sus than JoeBob's. I get that there's another element he's not giving us because it's supposed to be unconfirmable and that that's supposed to link to the Pawn, but it means there's a big question mark hanging over his claim right now.
By contrast, Moozer's role is very straightforward and I just generally find it hard to believe that, if he was scum, his partner would encourage him to out his role.
As for everyone else... honestly, I'd like to re-read the DP to get some behavioral analysis on Luna, Pie and Vader and pick up what I can from Earth and Barney's limited posts before pushing ahead with a lynch. Right now, JoeBob makes the most sense to me, but I'll see how I'm feeling about that afterward.
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@JoeBob
Yes, that’s what “everyone can see the results” means.
I'm not assuming anything at this point, so best to be as clear as possible.
so then don’t vote me until a future DP when I am more useful and you can’t lynch anyone else. Voting me now makes no sense.
Here's the problem with this statement: we have no way of currently knowing whether you'll be useful in the future. You have no way to verify yourself unless you die, and the utility of your Tracking when we get results one full day later is weak at best, assuming you even target the right person. That being said, if you have a better choice of target for a lynch, then state it. Who would you pick?
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@ILikePie5
I’d be willing to bet scum are half telling the truth about the mechanics after death. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s the scum tracker or has a role where he can see who (via proxy of notation) visited who every night. The odds of mislynching are 7/9 which is around 78%. Assuming we mislynch there’s a 1/8 (12.5%) chance that Joe correctly tracks the NK. For a 12.5% chance we have to lynch a townie? It doesn’t make mathematical sense?
It's not so much whether it makes mathematical sense based on what we know, but I see your point. The way the role has been framed is, at best, a weak positive utility to town (i.e. even if he tracks the right person, we would then have to recontextualize what happened two NPs ago to make use of it), so while I'm tempted to give him the opportunity to use the role, I don't think the information is worth the cost of either no lynching or lynching someone else at this stage. I want to give it some more thought before I make a decision after work.
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@JoeBob
So, again, is Austin just going to post that list publicly if/when you die (i.e. at the start of the DP after you are killed)?
Honestly, this is just the oddest combination of roles. It's like a heavily nerfed Tracker where the results may end up being entirely useless due to the delays built into getting that information and making it publicly available. The only benefit I can see to having the role be restricted in this way is that it makes you negative utility for scum to NK, but the role seems tailor-made to be a lynch target. Sincerely, if this is a fake claim scum came up with, it's one of the oddest choices I've ever seen because you are basically forcing us to consider you as our lynch in any future DP just to get some additional information, and the fact that you're unverifiable until you die effectively puts you at or near the top of everyone's scum pile. And if this is something Austin came up with, then I sincerely feel for you because you'd be sussed regardless of what you did.
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@ILikePie5
Suffice it to say that I'd like to get JoeBob's full story before pursuing a lynch. If he pushes it out too far, I'm willing to move forward without that information.
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@ILikePie5
@JoeBob
Lets say tonight I tracked you. When I die im guessing it would look something like this:NP1: ILikePie5 tracked/visited so and so.and then NP2 would do the same and so forth.
I echo Pie's sentiment. There shouldn't be any guessing at this stage. How will this information be delivered? Will Austin simply broadcast it or will it be sent to a certain player in a PM?
He said I wouldnt get to see until I died.
So, again, you're a Tracker who wouldn't get any information, meaning you're only useful once you've successfully targeted people during the NP and died. Alright. That means that scum, at least after this NP (NP1 you'd arguably have some value, since then you couldn't deliver info to town), have negative utility in using their NK on you since you'd provide info to town. That sounds like a pretty good excuse for surviving every NP going beyond NP1, though I'd say your value to town is negligible considering that it's always going to be one NP behind (i.e. if we lynch you DP2, we'll get info from NP1 in DP3).
If you survive NP1, then town has a valid reason to lynch you so long as there is not a common target of suspicion: you can provide info to town, delayed as it is. So you would become our default lynch in the absence of a better choice.
Does that sum it up?
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Dashboard
PLAYER ROLE CHAR
2. Pie ??? ???
3. whiteflame ??? ???
6. Lunatic ??? ???
7. Vader ??? ???
8. Barney ??? ???
9. Earth ??? ???
Everyone so far seems to be a mash-up of two roles, so there is some question as to whether this "Flipped Tracker" is just an odd mash-up of Tracker/Revealer made by Austin or whether it's a poorly fashioned fake claim.
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@Lunatic
NGL I actually town read this from pie. I don't get the vibe he is tunneling joebob or even thinks joebob is scum yet, but he feels like he is scum hunting and sometimes a convoluted push is the best way to get reactions, and the way joebob is reacting is what is more interesting about the exchange then the initial reason for pie pushing him. I don't think shutting down an open line of investigation for being based on contrived reasoning is really all that beneficial here.
I didn't so much mind the fact that he was pushing on JoeBob as that he had apparently missed the game where JoeBob was scum. I had a different read on JoeBob based on my experience playing with him, but I do think there's value in having everyone examine his past behavior rather than just assuming that this is scummy based on games where he has played as town.
What's strange is that he does seem careful here to me, and it goes against his normal townie IDGAF attitude that I've seen in the few games i've played with him in and hosted of him. When he finally caves and gives pie the claim you notice the shift. I'll grant you posted this prior to that happening.
Everything surrounding the claim from him is making me question my read on him.
What do you think about the claim? Do you find it odd that he didn't ask austin questions about how his role worked right off the rip?
Yeah, the claim doesn't make much sense to me. JoeBob has a history of having to clarify his claims, which he has done as both scum and town, but the distinct lack of clarity on this one is puzzling. If I had gotten this character and role from Austin, I'd have asked quite a few questions out the gate.
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@JoeBob
So... I really don't get this role. ChatGPT called you a "Flipped Tracker" and I'm not sure whether that's what you put in or if it just interpreted the role that way. You're a Tracker (you didn't say how many shots) with a caveat, so I'd like to understand the caveat. From what I understand, when you die, information regarding who you Tracked and what they did becomes available to... someone? Everyone? I'm not sure how that information is helpful (if you receive that information, you could tell us those results, which would be confirmed upon your death if you flipped town), unless, as you speculate, it's possible that you don't receive actual results for your Tracking each NP...
Except that makes even less sense because, then, you're functionally useless unless someone kills you. You're effectively Vanilla until you die. If this is real, then scum has no incentive to kill you because you only confirm yourself upon death and the information you garnered is only useful then as well, not to mention that it would require town to piece through previous NPs to try to understand the results.
Also, I've noticed that you have posted now twice this morning and, given that Austin has posted since then, he has likely responded to any questions you've posed. That information should have been made clear to everyone as soon as you hopped online. What happened? What did he say?
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@ILikePie5
I can probably guess what some of the townies have assuming my split is correct. I also have a decent idea of what scum may have.
I’ll keep an open mind about it.
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@ILikePie5
As of now I think he’s the best candidate to lynch. We have 3 claims already. I’m fine getting a role from Joe and making a decision. Idk where the inactives are which is annoying af too
I’ll consider it, but I want at least a couple of the inactives to chime in before pursuing anything.
The split works with my charscter, and I’m 90% sure it works with yours based on what you said earlier.
In a sense, yes. That’s why I’m considering your proposed split, though I think I need to see a couple of other soft claims before I can come to any conclusion.
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@ILikePie5
Eh I don’t consider that a game in the first place. There’s a reason why I didn’t play that game. Point taken though.
It is still an opportunity to get some intel on his behavior as scum, and notably, the only one we have.
Yes exactly but that’s just my point. He’s extremely cautious with his posts. That post screams wanting to seem like he doesn’t know the fact that Savant is definitely town.
It expresses a degree of uncertainty that I would not expect to see in a scum post from him. That caution would have to be his scum partner coming through, which is possible, but I don’t have good reason to believe that yet.
CastlingPawnAlgebraic NotationThe odd one out is algebraic notation at this point in time. The first two are more niche. A specific piece in game where there are multiple pieces. A move in a game where there are multiple moves. Algebraic notation is universal.
I guess that’s one way to look at it. I think there are several plausible theme splits, though I’ll note that Algebraic Notation isn’t consistently an outlier.
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@ILikePie5
Alright, having just caught up on the DP… yeah, I don’t get the basis for this push on JoeBob. I think the basis for sussing him is weak at best, and this statement by Pie is just flat out false:
Sure, which makes my point even more valid. He’s never played as scum. He’s more likely to make the mistake if anything.
I can confirm that I’ve played with JoeBob as scum. I’ve seen how he behaves in the role. I think he’d be more careful about his posts if he was scum, since he regularly requested help with those posts in that game. None of what I’ve seen so far matches his scum behavior in that game.
That being said, the character claim doesn’t automatically give much away (though I’ll note that it’s also associated with moves, bringing it in line thematically with Castling), so the information garnered can still be useful without providing too much info to scum.
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@Moozer325
Dashboard
PLAYER ROLE CHAR
Since Barney hasn't been on yet (and I want to spend more of this game thinking on themes), I decided to bust this out. I think that's right. I had to look up the Protector role, which appears to fit Moozer's description. I'm not clear if by "protect one piece" Moozer meant BG (i.e. you protect whoever you target by sacrificing yourself in place of them - check the link) or if he somehow gives them a 1X Bulletproof, but I'd like to clarify that (hence the tag).
Also, speaking on themes, it's interesting that so far we have a piece (Pawn) and a move (Castling). Wonder how many of us are typified by one of those sets of roles. I'm kind of in the latter, though I'd be better placed in the "strategy" bucket, which might include moves.
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@Savant
So Miller + ??? . Any particular reason you chose to wait until now to reveal it? Usually that’s a first post reveal.
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@ILikePie5
I’d like to wait until a couple more people post who haven’t yet and make a decision then.
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@Moozer325
Nevermind about the latter question. You said once, I clearly missed it.
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@Moozer325
I'll suppose I'll be honest. I'm a castling, I can use my ability once to protect one piece (king), and make one piece's next moves untamperable (rook).
Generally not the best idea to reveal information without pressure, but this seems pretty townie to me. To be clear: can you target yourself with either of those (the protection or the immune from manipulation), or are you required to target someone else? Also, is it a one-time use? You should be very careful who you target with these.
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@Vader
Just trying to spur involvement. How are things by you?
VTL Vader
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@Earth
@ILikePie5
Unless Earth proceeds to drop out of the discussion and vanish into the background of this DP, I’m not onboard for pushing him. That being said, you do have a tendency to do that for long stretches, so keep in mind that it’ll make you a target for pushes like this if you do.
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@Savant
Does Pie always demand claims from a lot of players? He did so last game and was mafia.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say “always,” but he’s usually aggressive. I don’t read it as sus.
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It's late and I'm heading to bed soon, but I did want to check in at least. I know the basics when it comes to chess, but I'll be trying to pick up more info as we go along to explore the theme.
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@Barney
Trying to lynch Poe instead of Vader, felt like a gambit. And gambits are most often scum.
Yeah, in retrospect, I shouldn't have held to my guns for as long as I did in DP2. I ended up being right, but that doesn't justify it. Wouldn't have blamed you for Tracking me after that.
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