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@irontoaster
i would rather not give away the specifics of how it works, except to say the doctor should not protect me.
Cryptic, but at least that's something.
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@irontoaster
I meant the doctor tries to protect me and i blow us both up.
I thought the bomb only killed the player who targets the bomb for the kill. Can yours kill multiple players?
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@Castin
Mod handed out fake claims and won't disclose how many. Could well know there is no cop in the game.Could be a full transparency bluff, but then again the "I knew my character could seem sus so revealed straight away" logic could work... Idk, I don't trust my own judgment yet and why the fuck are there so many roles to learn.
It's not impossible that scum know there is no Cop in the game. Cop could just be a fake claim that Irontoaster bundled into a JOAT role on the fly. Don't think that's what is going on, but that's possible.
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@irontoaster
Anyone who remembers how i play will tell you i have gigantic balls.
Maybe I shouldn't dismiss you so readily then, but I still think it's likely you aren't scum at least.
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@Mikal
So, explain this to me. How exactly does it help town for everyone to give up this information when we know scum has at least one fake claim?
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Alright, apologies for my absence, will try to up my participation tonight.
I'll start with my basic softclaim: I'm a critter. I get that there's a lot of them and if more than just Mikal wants to narrow it down, I'm willing to do that. I don't think my role is terribly obvious from my character anyway, so I'll volunteer to go next if that's the softclaim route we want to go down.
Regardless, I do think Mikal is focusing pretty hard on an element of his PM that likely has no bearing in this game. Mine just says "You are the ________!" and doesn't pluralize. It's not very broad, either, so I buy that people can have pretty specific characters, especially given that NPCs have been claimed.
Looks like irontoaster has a... diverse JOAT role. Based on the conversation that has gone on over it, I can at least understand where some of those elements are coming from, but it's surprising to have someone who is a Cop and a Poisoner. Just a weird fusion of roles. The Bomb makes some sense as a passive role that could deter a scum NK, and I could see how each of these could work (the Cop if I squint) with the Pressure Plate claim. Anyway, while I'm not sure what to make of it, fake claiming a Cop up front would be ballsy, so he'd have to know there is no Cop in the game to do this. Can't see much chance that he's scum.
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@Castin
I have literally no theme knowledge for this game, so I'm relying on others for that for the most part this time around. I'll do my research where possible.
I'm looking forward to having such a big game! And as requested by the mod, welcome Castin! Glad you could join the game as a hydra with Mikal.
Anyway, got a busy day today, but I'll contribute where I can.
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@Skipper_Sr
When did Dart go dark the first time?
The domain expired around this time roughly one year ago and we spent a while in the dark about whether it would come back.
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Hey everyone!
Given the uncertainty of this website's persistence (we are still working on getting access through the site owner, but we can't be sure that will happen), Mikal has spearheaded an effort to gather members of the DART community and the former DDO community onto a discord server called Debate Craft. As some of you may be aware, efforts to code a new site are ongoing (massive thanks to Savant and David in particular for their efforts) and this is part of that effort as well, as this will be a place to document your debate history and apply it going forward to the new site. It's not just for debaters, but given that this is a debate site, it is a major focus of our efforts. If you are interested in being a part of this or just want to be sure that you can still be a part of this community should DART go dark again, please go ahead and join the server and provide your insights on the process:
If you do join, please click a role in the "Welcome" channel for full access to the server.
Also the new site may be found at:
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@Mikal
I wouldn’t mind debating some of the more contested decisions as long as it doesn’t go off the rails and isn’t too common, so we’d need some kind of threshold for controversial enough to warrant a trial.
It doesn’t really resolve the problem, though. More just an opportunity to determine whether the rules were correctly applied in one instance than it is a broader fix.
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Since it's already been clarified why we reached this decision, I'll just state where my opinion on this lies.
I do think we need a clearer policy when it comes to how we respond to issues of hate speech. Instances where someone is denying events like the Holocaust, which happened here, are the kinds of posts I've largely permitted in the past and only issued bans for when it edged into calls for further violence. I don't think that was the right choice for the site, and while I'm sure a lot of people here would disagree that its problematic enough to warrant removal, I do believe that these types of debates do far more harm to the site than good.
As for whether this warranted a ban, my perspective in retrospect is that a warning or a short term ban would have been more appropriate, particularly for a new member. It's a distinctly negative place for a new member to start on the site, and I don't think comparisons to existing members who have a history of trolling on the site is entirely warranted, but for all my personal and strong disagreement with it, I believe any member who isn't outright calling for violence deserves a chance to moderate their behavior.
Regarding where we go from here, I would like to improve the process by which we do this, which starts by being more transparent. As Vader already expressed, we absolutely should be at least taking screenshots to ensure that the community is fully aware of the reason a debate or thread is taken down and a user is banned. More broadly, I think we need to work on the CoC to make it clearer to users what is off limits and how it will be addressed by the mod team.
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@Mharman
Alright, I'll give you a few:
The popular choice: Jujitsu Kaisen. One of the smarter action series around with some stellar animation and a narrative that keeps digging you deeper into the villains' plots complete with some really interesting power sets based on curses, it's an easy recommendation.
The less popular choice: Summer Time Rendering. The show came out on Disney+ and didn't get the attention it deserves. A game of cat and mouse involving a little bit of time travel and some crazy shadow creatures, this one is all about careful planning and manipulation with some great action to boot.
The more down to earth choice: Black Lagoon. No fantasy here, just a bunch of crazy gun fights usually involving pretty unhinged women with attitudes. The action goes hard and it has some brilliant character writing.
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@Mharman
I'd say Death Note, but you've probably watched it. Same with Attack on Titan. Those are also the only tow I've watched, and I've only watched parts of each. I'm not much of an anime guy.Maybe you have some recommendations for me? fyi I don't like cringe harems or waifu or fanservice shit that some anime have.
Worth finishing both. I have watched all of Death Note, read Attack on Titan. If you're looking for recs, just give me a genre and I should be able to give you something good. I'm not into harems either and I'll steer clear of shows with a lot of fanservice.
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@Mharman
Is this new account a shila alt?
Based on the information I have access to, no. This account is an alt, but not hers. Seems to be just trolling. Working on addressing the multiaccounting.
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@thett3
I've loved the show. You're right that S1 is just incredible. I think S2 still works pretty well, even if it's not quite as solid due to a couple of episodes that monkeyed with the pacing and distracted attention from the main plot.
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@WyIted
You three are the most full of shit people on the site as evidenced by my investigation feel free to check my work
Absolutely horrible analysis. Only 60% full of shit? I’m way more shit than human at this point.
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@Sir.Lancelot
We can also do rematches where we switch between Pro and Con.You’re going to be out of retirement for a while!
Frankly, been wanting to do this kind of thing for a while, was just about finding others with the motivation. I'm here for it.
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@Sir.Lancelot
Here’s how I believe my training should look like. Drilling, Sparring, & Voting. (The aim here is for me to memorize the script & rehearse it over and over again.)
My experience is that memorizing what you're going to say can do a good deal, but generally works best if you're Pro on a topic. Con usually has to think more on the fly and tailor their argument to what their opponent says. If you're doing the latter, you can still make it work, but best to prepare for like half to 2/3s of a round and shell out some responses to arguments you think are going to be coming.
We will choose 1-2 topics in a certain subject. Savant and whiteflame will be my sparring partners. I will debate them both on the subjects with a short time-window multiple times.
Sparring is always good. I'll be down.
(And whiteflame. If you make a refined version of Barney’s voting manual, but style it as a guide to your voting framework specifically. I’ll have a bulletproof way to debate all the time.)
Gotta do that at some point. It's not hard to figure out from my votes, but I don't expect many people to read those and I could be clear and brief about it.
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@Sir.Lancelot
But I have more experience than whiteflame in casual and informal debate, especially in a video setting.
I don't think I should automatically be selected for the role. Much as my experience helps, it also means my style of argumentation sounds more formal, which might not be best for this space.
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@Savant
I think whiteflame is the favorite to be our representative. These platforms are pretty different from formal debates, and oftentimes it's more of a conversation format where you don't really have time to establish a framework or make a super formal argument. To win the crowd, you really do have to be winning on almost every point. If openings are allowed, that's a big help, but they're usually only a few minutes long. Plus there's a decent amount of interrupting.
We'll have to work out the format, but if it is more conversational, it's bound to be a good deal simpler to manage. I can do the line-by-line decently well, used to do it a lot. Restricting speeches to a few minutes usually isn't a problem for me. I don't mind interruptions either, though there might be a problem if they can just chime in in the middle of a point I'm making. Not the worst, but it does make a debate more haphazard.
To prepare WF, here's my plan: we basically have a 3v1 or something debate in VC where three of us are constantly challenging WF with studies/new arguments/etc. Once he gets good at fending off three people in real time, live debating should be a walk in the park.
Not a bad way to go about it.
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@Savant
I'm down to do something like this. Definitely going to have to shake off the rust if I'm going to be doing the debating, but I'd be happy to either take on the role or help train someone else to do it. Really have to check out some of MDD's professional debaters as well.
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@Mikal
@AdaptableRatman
I wouldn't call that an accusation when it is pretty clearly prefaced with the line: "You want a more apt comparison." It's a comparison, not an accusation. That being said, any comparison between RM and a someone who would beat their girlfriend is pushing it, so I'm going to say that anything like this is getting uncomfortably close to an accusation and must be avoided.
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@fauxlaw
Wish we could do something about that.
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@AdaptableRatman
Yep, even with enforceable rules that you can set yourself to prevent abuse from your opponent during the debate.
Just wild.
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@AdaptableRatman
I get it. You’ve made your priorities clear, and I guess proving the point you’ve been consistently claiming you exclusively hold the high ground on isn’t among them.
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@AdaptableRatman
I reject the Mcgregor outright until he wisens up and shows respect.
So, a demand for a superficial show of respect from your opponent wins out over proving your point and demonstrating that your direction for the site is best and earning that respect from the whole site. Got it.
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@AdaptableRatman
Show me you doing so with someone who treats you how mikal treats me.
I don't know what you want me to tell you because I have accepted every single challenge I've received on a topic that has interested me, regardless of who it comes from. I've been called out for plenty of my actions and even been challenged to debates over them by people like Oromagi, and while it's clearly an apples and oranges comparison, the notion that I'd shy away from any debate just because my opponent was rude, frustrating or, yes, even abusive doesn't compute with me, particularly when they say any such abuse is strictly off-limits for the debate.
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@AdaptableRatman
Show me 1 example of you doing so
...of me being cajoled into taking a position on a debate that I've stated I wanted to do? That doesn't exist. If it's a debate topic I wanted to do, I wouldn't require pressure to do it. If I was in your shoes, having stated that I really wanted to have this discussion and getting someone who is actively interested in having that debate with a bunch of my own stipulations imposed on them, I'd have made the debate myself by now.
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@AdaptableRatman
If I said all the things Mikal has said to me the past 4 days, to you, would you be accepting a debate offer from me?
If I felt as strongly about the topic as you claim to and felt my voice could at all influence the direction of the site going forward by having even one user read and consider it, absolutely. I wouldn't hesitate.
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@AdaptableRatman
And here I thought this was something you were passionate about, but I guess your frustration with everyone else outweighs your desire to demonstrate just how excellent your plans for the site are. At least now I know where your priorities lie.
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@Mikal
@AdaptableRatman
I have been sufficiently cowed by Mikal's harsh words and clearly lack the balls to debate this. If only a pair of debaters who had an active interest in discussing the site's direction going forward would be willing to debate how to improve the site going forward, I might learn a thing or two and be improved by the experience of reading that debate...
@AR Are you going to debate him or are you just going to keep playing this game?
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@Mikal
@AdaptableRatman
We can frame it over which direction is best for the site as it’s not about your character. Judges or open voting doesn’t matter to me. If it’s open , we will put in a clause that you can’t message anyone about it or voting or it’s a ff and we can have the mods highlight or vision.
I'd highlight the debate the entire way through arguments and the voting period. I would also commit to abstaining from voting if it is open voting, and I'd be good with RM posting a list of people who cannot vote on this debate.
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@Sir.Lancelot
Adaptable was curious what you think. He had this idea for a revolution, but he wanted to discuss your thoughts and get your approval on it first because he was nervous you might disagree.
Yep, sounds like him.
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@AdaptableRatman
Consider this your only warning. I will turn off your forum posting privileges if you continue to post in an ongoing game.
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@AdaptableRatman
You are making me feel insane for a very rational and sensible interpretation of what Barney said.
I didn't say you are insane for jumping to that conclusion, just assuming the worst from a relatively basic joke. Maybe don't just assume that he went from the thought of "AR said something about milk" to "let's make a bunch of really explicit masturbation jokes that include my literally serving cum to other people." Sometimes, people are just making absurd jokes about delivering milk from nonexistent cow teats.
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@AdaptableRatman
You can gaslight others, it wont work on me. That is what he was talking about.
I would love to know your definition of "gaslighting" because this is a fucking baffling use of the term. Our disagreeing about what Barney meant in these posts is not gaslighting in any way, shape or form.
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@AdaptableRatman
Dude, you're the one making the argument that he was obviously talking about masturbating into a bunch of glasses and serving them to people. If you don't like his lack of activity in the game, fine, but assuming he just went there without ever mentioning semen or cum in response to your post about a lack of milk is pretty absurd. I think you're the only one jumping to that conclusion.
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@AdaptableRatman
Joking?Are you actually joking?He said swiss cheese I said milk and then he said Im milking him and hes sitting down and all of that.
Again, playing off your line about milk, dude. You brought up Swiss cheese with the implication that his point was full of holes, then said you saw no milk. Saying he's "being milked" and that he'd do it sitting down was all he said, as though he were a cow being milked. You jumped to the conclusion he was talking about masturbation.
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@ILikePie5
I was disappointed in the claim WF came up with. There were so many free characters available like Susan B Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Jailkeeper was also a weak claim imo. Something inconsequential like an Ascetic or Visitor, or something like that would’ve probably been better.
Honestly, entirely fair. I realized too late that I'd set up a Susan B. Anthony claim and already pigeon-holed myself into a living character so I couldn't use it. Maybe I should have just gone with it anyway and hoped no one noticed. I was considering Ascetic, just thought the risk if I was visited might be too great. Regardless, yeah, the JK was a poor choice.
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@AdaptableRatman
If Pie was actually skilled at mafia he'd loathe what town did there. Regardless we had a deputy mod tlak rpeeatedly about masturbation and feedihg his semen to other users on a site 13yos can use and younger can access.
So, you've mentioned this a few times in our PMs and I was wondering where Barney's line came from. I tracked it back:
So far you seem to have no literacy at all. Swiss cheese? I see no milk.
You mentioned milk first. He was literally playing off of your line. You're the only person reading any sexual meaning into it.
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@Casey_Risk
Respect for all the effort in this game and the previous one. I think we put up a good fight regardless.
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@Earth
Bro, WF and Casey had to play two townsided games twice in a row 😭
I think we stood a better chance here, but yeah, two scum games in a row was rough.
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I'll consider it. Was hoping to take a break for a game, but you can put me in as backup for now.
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Reopening this now that the game's over.
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Again, discussion of an ongoing game. I’ll reopen this after the game ends.
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@Lunatic
Okay who are you tops reads right now and why?
Literally running out the door to get my wife, so I don't have time to detail my reads.
Would have put Mharman in there, but given he's been eliminated, I guess my choice would be between Casey and Ultra. Casey because the only basis I have to townread them is the softclaim and that could easily be faked, Ultra because the Super Saint claim looked townie to me for how ballsy it comes off, but could have just been an attempt to avoid a lynch.
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@Lunatic
I mean you deviated from something you normally do every game (push for soft claims) to not doing it in this game based on your own claim and mikals at the time (pretty sure thats all there was at that point). I am just saying its a stretch in logic to change a whole playstyle for this game based on very limited info like that. Why its scummy is that assuming there isn't fake claims provided, scum would have more incentive to not want to lock claims in early as they don't know whats taken and not taken yet, I can see you having an incentive to change it up in the case where you were scum, as opposed to just town here.
I literally suggested that we softclaim based on our characters were alive or not, said mine was alive, and then no one followed up. I just didn't love Casey's suggestion for what to softclaim. I assume scum do have access to fake claims insofar as they likely got to ask questions given Pie's usual modding system, but I guess it's possible they didn't even after the issues last game without any fake claims.
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@Mikal
WF was already bothering me. Most of his reads were null, and he was doing that non committal shit he always does as scum. Every time I point it out, it's the same.No real reads: null, null, null, one person town. I think it's one of his stronger tells as scum, and I’ve pointed it out before and every time I have, I’ve been right.I was already sitting pretty hard scum on him, and then add in (banned logic). I’m sitting with him pretty high as scum right now.
I said I wasn't going to argue, but if this is your behavioral read on me, then I'm lost. Being non-committal on my reads in DP1 is normal for me regardless of my affiliation. Feel free to check back through previous games or just ask anyone else and they'll tell you the same. I know you're going to scumread me regardless, but apart from scumreading my claim (again, fair enough), everything you've said about me is true regardless of my affiliation.
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