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@Swagnarok
Fair enough. I'll likely work on all these this week.
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@Earth
I get that it might be a little confusing, but I immediately understood my role that I won't have to wait for my results, so your hang up on me is confusing. I have no idea what role mafia has, but it won't surpise me if mafia has some role that can redact votes. And I'll be honest,I read that as you being able to select a match anytime, but receiving the results (and potentially having it blocked or manipulated) during the NP.Why would you think this? If you were playing a mafia game as cop, and someone said something slightly scummy, and you wanted to cop them, you can just send your action in early. You don't need to wait. The 'day' in my PM clearly says I receive right away.
There is no mention of when you would receive results in that message as far as I can see, and I'm honestly not sure why you'd think everyone else would just assume that you can receive your results shortly after asking for them. That's an unusual role. This is my first time seeing anything like it, particularly for an informational daytime role (seen lots of daycop claims before that were utterly bogus), but you make out as though I should have automatically known it would behave this way.
As for why I would think this, the answer is simple: I was roleblocked. I would have to function under the assumption that yours is the only role in the game beyond Savant's automatically "use on death" role that couldn't be prevented by that roleblock, and it would be particularly odd for Austin to give scum access to an RB when several people in the game have active roles that cannot be countered with it, particularly informational roles that can provide essential insight into two sets of votes.
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1. Pie
2. Savant
3. Lunatic
4. Austin
5. Vader
6. Barney
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@Earth
I am the 2x vote revealer. At any point during the day or night, I can choose a match and receive the vote for that match. The justification is that the ballot contains the reason for decision along with a tally of the vote for that debate....I have no idea what you are talking about. This is my post I made on DP1.
I'll admit that you mentioned you can select a match at any point, but there's a difference between selection and receipt. I read that as you being able to select a match anytime, but receiving the results (and potentially having it blocked or manipulated) during the NP. Considering there's an RB in play, it's weird to have a role that effectively cannot be role blocked, but that scum somehow manipulated to limit the results you receive during the DP, meaning you have a role that scum, at best, have a very limited answer for.
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@Swagnarok
Don't know much about the thread, but I'll give it a go.
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@Vader
Ping on discord for game start
I’ll hit you up.
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@AustinL0926
Congrats on designing your first game!
Thank you! Should be interesting.
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@Lunatic
Is this based on the netflix show or a different one? I started the netflix one, I remember liking it, but not sure why I stopped watching it.
Yep, based on the Netflix show, which encompasses four seasons plus two of Nocturne. The first two seasons go hard btw, and the rest aren’t bad either, just not up to that high standard.
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@Earth
I saw that you mentioned complaining about how I described my role last DP, and to be honest, I'm still baffled. I never contradicted myself. You aren't mentioning something important that happened last DP though. I wonder why.I mis remembered details last DP. I definitely feel like WF is stretching since he knows how I play. No matter.
Yeah... wasn't really sure what you were getting at. I'm familiar with how you play as both town and scum, so yes, the fact that I didn't clock you as scum previously is part of the reason I've been townreading you most of the game. I'd still say you're behaviorally town even at this point.
I will note, however, that I never said you contradicted yourself. I said you left out information that could have been helpful sooner, namely the daytime use of your role. I was surprised because that's not how I anticipated your role working based on your initial explanation, and based on the other responses you received, I'd say that was a common sentiment.
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Alright, first shot at making a game. Thanks to Mharman for all his help with the design.
This game is based off of the Castevania animated TV series and will include characters from the four seasons of the mainline show as well as characters from the follow-on Castlevania: Nocturne. I only have limited knowledge of the games and that won't feature here. Might be a bit before I start since I'm still working on elements of the design, but might as well get the sign-ups going.
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Alright, going to try to keep this somewhat brief.
I didn't and still don't see much reason to sus Earth in DP1. He was early enough to claim a role and it was niche enough, not to mention specific enough to the setup of this game (there necessarily would be roles that can perceive what happened in the absence of vote counts and flips) to come off as townie. Even the fact that the flips would only be visible to him makes sense, particularly with the knowledge of Savant's role that automatically reveals all the people who were on his elimination publicly. It makes his role unverifiable, but it also means that having a 2X role that allows him to see everyone's votes isn't self-confirming and OP for a game like this.
Then we get to DP2. The main point of concern here stems from two issues: Earth didn't use his role or suggest using it at any point during this DP, and Luna used his Magnitude role on Earth, which should have granted him the a few extra votes if he was town. Despite being put in the driver's seat by Luna, Earth stated that he apparently wasn't even a part of one of the more consequential votes (Casey/Bullish) and didn't make efforts to further perceptions of him being town, particularly in talking about his role.
But that really only came out in DP3, where Earth revealed that his role had a daytime use, making it unstoppable by any night actions. This meant that, at any point during DP2, he could have clarified how his role worked and had an open conversation about how to use it with as many people as possible. Instead, he waited until DP3, used one of the shots of his role on a match that was least likely to give him relevant information and had one of the more easily guessed vote totals and placements, then told us how it worked, leaving himself with only one shot to use. I won't call him out for his second choice since the Casey/Bullish match was the choice all of the remaining players agreed he should take, especially given my own Sensor results.
I wasn't sussing the block he's claiming on those results, even if it is weird for scum to have the ability to block only part of the information he's receiving, and I found the numbers - 4 votes on Casey and 2 on Bullish - believable, since I would buy that at least a couple of town players just aren't participating anymore (and possibly not Owen, who just seemed to stop participating entirely when he was found out), meaning there are likely two scum is biasing the vote and town votes were just split. Looking back at this, what I don't like is Earth's statement that he wasn't on the elimination. He threw in the statement that he'd forgotten to vote only in response to Bullish later rather than with the vote totals, and considering he still had the extra votes granted to him by Luna at this point, his choice could have been very consequential. And he did all this knowing that I had already seen there were two scum on the lynch, which comes across as trying to avoid suspicion in the face of those lower counts for the Casey/Bullish votes rather than just being straight up about not voting in previous matches when I gave my result or even anytime early in DP3 when he started being active again.
So... yeah, not brief. I saw a lot of this as anti-town rather than scummy in DP2 and DP3, but the more I keep looking at it, the more scummy elements keep peeking through.
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@Earth
Apologies for the delay. With only Earth and I left, I figured the game was over, but here we are. I had misgivings about Earth during his match last DP, but I was still pretty sure his match against Barney was town v. town. Now I know he must be scum, so I’m going to go back over the previous DPs and see what I missed.
Regardless, since it’s just the two of us posting this DP, Earth, I hope you’ll be a little more active. I get the impression that some people have just stopped participating altogether, which is necessarily going to affect voting, but we are the only ones who can provide any direction this DP and I don’t want to be sitting here talking to an empty room.
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@Savant
Happy to do them. I'll try to keep them shorter than my votes :P
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I'd keep posting in here, but there's really nothing to add at this stage. I'm fine with relegating the discussion of Earth vs. me to next DP.
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Well… I’d blame scum for this, but there’s plenty of town left to vote in the game. I really do not understand the basis for voting Barney in that match.
In any case, my decision here is obvious and Bullish seems to be fine with his own elimination.
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Alright, having thought about it overnight and much of this morning, while I think Earth vs. Vader/Barney is town v. town, the play here from Earth leaves him as the more likely outlier between the two of them. We cannot verify that he had the extra votes granted to him by Luna (his role wouldn't have worked on Earth if Earth was scum), and while I don't think he'd make the choice to claim that his role came back with only 6 votes being cast and no knowledge of who cast them on the Casey/Bullish match, the way he used his role before selecting it definitely rubs me the wrong way. It may just be the lack of involvement this game that's leading to my uncertainty (I wouldn't say many people have been engaged with any kind of regularity), but all I can think of is that scum might be throwing a curve ball or two and I'd like to get rid of any uncertainty here.
Vader/Barney is my stronger townread, both are functionally Vanilla now, so my vote goes on Earth.
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@Barney
FYI, my votes were forLuna,Savant,Owen,Plus abstained once.
That jives with the reduced number of votes Earth received in his results for the Casey/Bullish match, though it only accounts for one of them.
I'm not positive how that works, since we are only on DP3.
There were four separate matches in DP2, each encompassing 24 hours, so 4 eliminations.
Oh and Earth today. I am quite dubious of the use and lack of use of his power role. Granted, I would expect mafia to do the faking better.
Yeah, I'm torn on this one. The partial failure of his role is at once too baffling and a little too specific for me to sus. I don't like how he chose to use his role in the first place, though, so I'm balancing a few factors. Likely going to sleep on this.
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@Earth
Okay, I got Casey/Bullish back, and I see that 4 people voted for Casey and 2 voted for Bullish. However mafia must have some role that blocked me because I can't see who voted.
Alright then, so based on that and my result, of the four people on Casey's elimination, two were scum. Noted that the numbers are down from the previous vote, wonder what that's about. I don't love that this is the one for which we have the least information from your role, though I'm questioning whether you'd give this kind of response as scum. Just seems too specific.
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@Bullish
It’s taking a while to get responses. At this point at least, my preference in this match is eliminating Earth. He has time to address these issues and make a decision on how he’ll use the remaining shot of his role, but if it’s just going to be long stretches of silence, then this match will drag on until the 48 hours elapses and I’d like to do more with it than that.
Bullish, can you confirm the current status of you role?
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Alright, so after re-reading the OP, it looks like we have 48 hours for this first match (roughly 35 of which remain), which is good because I'd like to get this sorted out.
I really don't like that Earth chose this particular match (it's pretty much the only match we could be almost entirely certain would feature everyone voting Owen, regardless of their affiliation), nor that this is the first we're hearing about the full mechanics of how his role functions and that it's a day use role of all things. Much as I'd love to keep a role like this in reserve for one of the match-ups from this day phase, I think we're going to need as much information as we can to inform the elimination this round, and that will require Earth to use it again. I can see the case for using it on the Bullish/Casey match since that was much more contentious.
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@Earth
...? Yes. I can choose any completed match of my choosing, and at any time. I picked your match on a whim.
So where did this whim come from? The decision in that match was extremely lopsided based on everyone’s posts beforehand and the match played out as expected, so I would not be surprised if scum just bussed Owen. Also, if you could do this and effectively have an uninterruptible day use role, why not at least consult the rest of us before choosing?
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@Earth
So you can choose any past match you want and get a vote for it at any point of your choosing? Why did you choose this match?
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@Earth
I used it on WF/Owen a hour or so ago.
...what? Please explain what you mean by this. This is how you explained your role before:
I am the 2x vote revealer. At any point during the day or night, I can choose a match and receive the vote for that match. The justification is that the ballot contains the reason for decision along with a tally of the vote for that debate.
How did you use your role an hour ago on a match that already ended last DP?
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@Barney
And what does nominating someone do?
It's irrelevant at this point, but back in DP1, it was a way to select one person not to be paired up with anyone else in the DP2 match-ups. Vader effectively got a bye through DP2 because he was nominated. It was a way to address having an odd number of players in the game after the DP1 elimination.
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@Barney
Our votes are private I believe, so how do we know who was voting for Casey?
You are correct. We don't know who was on Casey's elimination.
That's why I tried to use my role with Savant's elimination, since it revealed everyone who voted for him as well. I'd like to align the other shot of my role with Earth's role usage since he'll be able to see everyone who was on a given elimination, but coordinating with him openly is likely to result in one of us getting RB'd or manipulated.
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@Earth
I need some insight from you, particularly on your role usage. If you haven't used your role, why not? If you have used it, when and what were your results?
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@Barney
Ok, someone please bring me up to speed.If I understand correctly, we have no way to know how the game is going?BTW, I'm effectively vanilla. Vader had a power, which he used up. I don't know if it helped the game in any way or not.
Yes, Vader claimed Solvency and said he used his power to swap the positions of Earth and WyIted in the match-ups for DP2. We couldn't see the original match-ups, only he could.
Your opponent in this match-up is Earth, who has claimed Ballot and said that he is the 2X Vote Revealer. That also would be a role that only reveals information to the person who uses it. He has not yet confirmed that he used his role.
Bullish has claimed to be Spreading, saying that he's effectively been a diminishing Popular, taking a larger amount of votes to eliminate in DP2 (2 extra), slightly less in DP3 (1 extra) and no extra in DP4 should he make it that far.
I claimed Theory and the role Sensor. I tried using it when Savant was eliminated, since his role and mine dovetail well, but I was RB'd. I since used it on this past match and, this time, it worked. I was told that there were two scum on Casey's lynch.
So, to sum up, no one's role has been confirmed, but I would say that Bullish's claim is the stand-out. Spreading was an outlier among all the claims given, and the Popular role, true or not, could be scum. That wouldn't be a first, though this version of it would. I was townreading both Vader and Earth, but now I have to reconsider that since one of you is making it to the final match. I think that about sums it up.
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Users:
Savant has contributed a lot to the strength of debates on the site in recent memory. Hell, two of the debates I nominated and have voted for this year have been his. The involvement he's shown on the site in general has been excellent and he remains one of the best and most consistent contributors.
Both Luna and Pie are mainstays of the site. I think their contributions to the forums in particular speak for themselves, and to Mafia in particular, which warrants more attention. Without their contributions, I don't think Mafia would have the kind of staying power it has had on the site.
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I'd like to spend some time on the users and other categories separately, so I'll just focus on debates for now:
Debates:
- Benjamin vs. Bones -
- CatholicApologetics vs. Savant -
I voted on all 3 of these and the votes themselves can speak to more than I will here.
Benjamin and Bones gave a lot of detailed insight into the issue with plenty of evidence. I was particularly fond of their approach to evaluating that evidence, particularly when sources from each side contradicted the other. It's a tricky issue to cover and I think both sides did it justice.
Savant and Benjamin had a close and intriguing debate covering the bounds of personhood and when it should (and shouldn't) be applied. I like that this branched out from the usual abortion arguments (though those did feature) into a more fundamental discussion that underpins that one, and each side presented compelling points.
CatholicApologetics and Savant both gave me a lot to think about on a topic I barely know anything about. I walked away with a number of useful insights into Catholic dogma and its foundations as well as how to apply the concept of infallibility. Interpretation was everything in this debate.
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@Casey_Risk
Yeah, it's unfortunate how low engagement this game has been. I don't think anyone expected it to be as experimental as it is, which is probably a contributing factor.
Yeah, I suspect that's the case. It's cool to try something new, but investment seems particularly low in this design.
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@Casey_Risk
Well... this might very well be the last word of the DP on the matter since it doesn't seem like Earth is going to contribute to any discussion of this match. Part of the problem with this setup is that we lose so many people so rapidly that it comes down to whoever remains to keep up discussion, which is even harder with Vader stepping out and Owen and Earth apparently absent. Everyone who is dead still has to be involved to make this work, but they can't contribute, so the people remaining in the game necessarily wield a lot of opportunity to influence the vote. Maybe I should be directing more of these posts at dead players, but I just have to assume that they're paying attention and voting accordingly.
I'm fine with the vote going against Bullish if people want to go that way, but mine will go on Casey this DP for reasons I've already stated. Casey, if you do end up surviving this match, the choice to use your role on Owen should be a given.
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@Lunatic
honestly the only reason I’d punch bullish here is because he said he wasn’t gonna participate in the savant lynch but did anyway, but literally everyone else seems to excuse that so I guess I’m missing something?! Idk.
As I mentioned to Casey earlier, look back at the end of the DP, particularly posts 133, 134 and 136. These were all posted before the match ended, and Bullish posted in response to all that. I'd be a lot more sus of Bullish if he'd stuck to his guns at that point and hadn't posted a vote on Savant, since that was the last word from him.
I’m still not convinced pie was town so the argument about Casey voting for pie doesn’t sway me.
All I have to go on for this is that WyIted said he was town based on his role. He could have manipulated that result. Regardless, I don't think ex post facto results change what I think was a justifiable reason at the time for Casey to select Pie for elimination.
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@Casey_Risk
Also, just something I want to put out there because I forgot about it before, but I can also steal the vote of a dead player. I can steal Owen's vote tonight if I'm alive and no one has any objections.
I like the idea, but this isn't something we'll be able to verify. If we do end up voting Bullish, then this is the optimal way to go to prevent a scum vote.
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@Earth
@Lunatic
@Bullish
@Casey_Risk
Alright, so here's my thinking:
I prefer to lynch Casey this DP over Bullish.
That comes down to mechanics. I think both of them have given their actual roles since they are role confirmable and they're either just giving them straight up as town or using them to get some towncred as scum. With Bullish, that effect is going to taper off, and even if it doesn't, it's not going to have a meaningful effect on future DPs given that the vote difference is probably going to be significantly more than would be covered by the Popular role. By contrast, I can see the Vote Thief being a real problem since it could significantly alter the vote balance in the game.
There's not a lot to behaviorally drive me in either direction.
Bullish's early decision to sheep Luna and his stated ignorance of the theme don't do him any favors, but they set me off mainly as gutreads and I haven't seen any substantial flags since. I do find Bullish's sussing of Vader to be a very strange choice considering he was so widely townread in DP1 that he got nominated to be entirely excluded from these matches this DP, but I also have a hard time scumreading something so obviously weird.
When Casey started off this match by calling out Bullish's participation in the elimination of Owen last match, that initially set me off due to the aforementioned exchange between Savant and Bullish, but when I pointed that out, Casey acknowledged it in a way that largely made it null to me. I can see the case Bullish is making on the vote on Pie, who WyIted found was innocent. I understand the basis for that vote, even if I disagreed with it and it proved more problematic with hindsight.
I'll hold off on voting until we've had more discussion (and frankly, I'd really like to hear more from Luna and Earth, who are still around but haven't contributed much during this match), but that's where I'm leaning.
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@Bullish
@Casey_Risk
I just got back from a very long set of delayed flights, so I’m home at last, but tired enough that I’m still trying to get my thoughts together on this match.
I’ll give my choice before I head to bed, but for now, suffice it to say that whichever of you survives this DP likely isn’t surviving the next one anyway. I’m townreading everyone else in this game and I think that’s a common sentiment. So regardless of who I choose, I’m good saying that I’ll lead a vote against the other next DP.
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@Casey_Risk
I believe your role does what you say it does. It just doesn't town confirm you. With roles like mine and Luna's, I don't think it would necessarily be unbalanced in the hands of scum.
That holds true for both of you, though, right? I get your argument about a scum Popular being plausible, I just don’t think it shifts the narrative in your favor.
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Between flights. Given how one-sided that last match was, I figured there was little point to using my Sensor.
As for this match, I’m still not sure which way I’m leaning. I’ll have to participate in some discussion of it when I get home.
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Already voted Owen as well. We’ll have tomorrow to discuss the final match of the DP, just a heads up that I’ll be flying home part of that day.
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@Casey_Risk
Whoops, guess I skipped over that. I was going off what I remembered Bullish saying (that he was going to abstain).
Fair enough. He did say that, guess he changed his vote.
In retrospect, we really should have considered the possibility of you getting roleblocked. Damn.
Yeah. I’ll have to keep future uses close to the chest.
Owen is basically deadweight at this point, so it's hard for me to think of a reason not to vote for him.
Don’t know where he went. If he’s town, hopefully he’ll be more active after the Tree Stump activates, though I doubt it. Wouldn’t confirm anything other than his role anyway.
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@Casey_Risk
So, why is your name on the list?
I see two posts in a row stating that Bullish should be on Savant’s elimination by Savant himself and a response afterward from Bullish. I’d be sussing him if he wasn’t on the elimination, so why is this surprising to you?
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Alright, didn’t see the new match was up. Obviously voting Owen on this one.
My role failed, which means I was likely RB’d. That’s what I get for telegraphing when I’d use my role. I had it confirmed that it does not use a shot of my role, so I still have 2X.
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Guess this match ended too late to close for Austin to close it out. I won’t post anything else before the next match is announced and we get results.
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Well, I’ve submitted. Going to be way too late to stay up for the result, so I’ll pick this up in the morning.
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@Savant
Just to clarify, does your role reveal publicly the # of scum on the wagon, or just to you? If the latter, how would we know you are really confirmed?
I’ll receive that information, so no, you wouldn’t receive confirmation of me based on that result. It’s the same problem we have with Earth’s role. We’re doing what we can with the available roles claimed so far. Nothing here is confirmed beyond what we will find out from your role, apparently.
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@Savant
I say Bullish. Don't know his behavior as well.
Works for me.
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@Savant
We're lynching Owen no matter what anyway. Maybe Bullish. Was Vader widely scum read?
If Vader has been scumread by anyone other than Bullish, I haven’t seen it. I’m fine with either Bullish or Casey being on the lynch, they’re both of my secondary picks.
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