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@Savant
Since we see how many scum are on the wagon, I think it might be useful to add a player who seems scummy. We either clear them or get evidence against them.
I’m good with that. Do you have a pick for who it should be? Owen seems like the obvious scum, but it might be best to focus on second and third picks.
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@Bullish
I’m fine with that setup. With Savant’s role, we’ll be able to verify who was on the lynch, and with mine, we’ll be able to parse how many of them were scum.
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@Vader
@Savant
@Casey_Risk
I could see doing that. Earth says he’s already cast his vote, so I’ll put this to Savant and Vader.
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Rephrasing that last sentence: who do we want involved in this lynch in order to ensure that we get the maximum possible information from my and Savant’s role?
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The plan is not going to matter much if everyone votes Savant since my role will just say everyone on the scum team is on the lynch. We want to separate scum as much as possible to limit possibilities. Earth casting his vote is fine for that since he’s very likely town. How else do we want to split this vote to improve upon my result?
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As for everyone else, you all have to make clear where your vote will be and then hold off on voting until we’re aligned on what to do. That also means sticking around long enough to have that discussion and then vote.
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@Bullish
how many shots is your sensor?
I have 2X shots.
Ok here's the plan.1. we put Earth (allegedly 3x voter), whiteflame (our towniest player), and Savant himself on Savant.2. now we have potentially 5 votes on Savant, so it's highly unlikely scum can game this vote3. everyone else abstains4. earth reveals the votes to himself5. whiteflame uses sensor on Savant
I don’t love the notion that I’m somehow the towniest player at this point. I’m fine with implementing this strategy since it makes good use of Savant’s and my role, though I don’t think Earth has to use his role for this to work. Savant will publicly reveal who was on his lynch when he dies (I think that’s how his role works, tagging him to double check), so having Earth use his role as well seems excessive. I can use mine with Savant’s to determine how many scum were on his lynch, and I can put myself on that wagon as well.
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So… yeah, that elimination could have gone better. Maybe Luna could have announced that he’d been Vanillaized earlier, but Earth’s vote on WyIted in particular was a problem. In any case, I have no reason to disbelieve Luna at this point and even having a basically confirmed town player to work with is a big deal in a game where it could well come down to 1v1 with scum vs. town.
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@Lunatic
Is it too late to change your vote?Vote for me. Wylted still can use his role. I was vanillized last night, but was told it doesn't come into effect until tonight, meaning my role on earth will still have worked, but after tonight I am useless. If you have reason to think wylted is town keep him alive. Also wylted will be more active than me.
Alright, I’m fine with putting in a vote against you on that basis. I think you’re both town anyway.
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@Earth
I'm not sure what you want me to do given that the match has to be completed before I can do anything.
The idea would be to validate the number of votes you cast, though I realized that only you would see the result, so it's not particularly useful in that respect.
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@WyIted
Technically since scum can create a bunch of mislynches easy than perhaps we should vote on our picks even if it means some of us have to make votes we perceive to be bad so we can vote in unison
I do think we're going to need to align our votes and decide by majority for that reason. If Earth has those extra votes, he'll be all the more important as a result.
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@Casey_Risk
That's fair, however I would like to point out again that in Austin's UPick Mafia, the Vote Thief was town while I was a Popular scum player, so it's absolutely possible that the same thing happened in this game.
Yep, I've been considering that. Austin might have the same setup here. Both roles make sense for this game as well, and I could see him just reusing them in their same positions. Thankfully, I have some time to puzzle over that one.
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@Casey_Risk
Oh, I forgot to mention this, but I waived my action last night.
I could not use my role due to the tie, though given the strategies we’re aiming for (using it with Savant’s or Earth’s role), I probably would have waived it anyway.
I think everyone needs to publically state how they're going to vote on each matchup before the deadline.
I agree.
I plan to vote WyIted this DP so long as Earth confirms Luna’s role. I don’t like either choice, but I’ll take role confirmation.
Earth over Savant. I think they’re also both town, but Savant’s role has utility that we can use with mine when he’s eliminated while Earth has utility while alive.
Owen over me. I’ve already stated last DP and this one why I’m scumreading him, but if he’s actually the Tree Stump as he claims, we don’t lose anything since he’ll functionally be alive next DP anyway.
As for your match with Bullish, I’m torn on mechanics since both of your roles could align either way, particularly in this game. Both are technically confirmable, though not easily in this game. Behaviorally, I’d say I’m slightly leaning towards you, though the Vote Thief claim leans a little more sus than the degrading Popular, so this is going to take some discussion.
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@Lunatic
Saw you went to bed, but realized I didn’t tag you in the above.
To be clear, I’m not sussing the choice or the usage of your role, just wish we got more out of it.
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I wanted to use it to confirm my role, that’s why I asked Vader who the most town read person was last day phase and he said earth.
He’s a fair enough choice for looking very townie based on his role, I just don’t love that we don’t have another point of role confirmation.
Also it is good to have solid confirmation that he is town if we’re gonna treat him as town confirmed. We can always nominate him tonight as well if he proves he’s town.
To my knowledge, we’re not nominating anymore. That was a DP1 only thing.
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@Earth
@Lunatic
His vote will simply count as one instead of three if he is mafia.
True, but we won’t verify it outside of Earth saying what happened unless he uses his role to reveal the votes, right?
Putting this to you as well, Earth. I’d like to have some verification that you were targeted and whether your role would show the extra votes coming from you. It’s still a problem regardless because you’ll be the one to get the result - it would have made more sense for Luna to target someone else so that you could verify their extra votes or lack thereof rather than seeing your own, but here we are.
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@Lunatic
Is it confirmed that Wylted copped pie innocent? Because if he was scum he could have chosen himself to make us think he was innocent and cast doubt on those who pushed him.
Nothing is confirmed, so that is possible.
Also I used my magnitude last night on earth, he should be a triple voter this day phase. If not he is scum.
I asked this last DP, but I'll check in again: would your role have said it failed if Earth was scum? Or would only he have it confirmed?
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@Lunatic
Alright, this got posted late.
So far at least, it looks like Pie got effectively copped innocent by WyIted, which suggests that Owen was scum since they had a choice between the two. I guess there’s a chance they would have wanted to avoid killing the Tree Stump so that he could continue talking in the next DP or just chose Pie because he was potentially more dangerous, but Owen was already in my scum pile, so this just furthers that perception. But that’s for a later match.
As for the choice this match, I was townreading both WyIted and Luna coming out of the last DP and that hasn’t changed. Luna is more townread for me given his crazy role (I do want to hear how you used it), so for the time being, he’s my choice to survive, though I think we lose out either way. I figured it was a given that some town vs. town (and perhaps even scum vs. scum) matches would come up, this just looks like the first.
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@Vader
Congrats on nearly finishing college!
I used to see OG's that were around DDO for 7+ years and thought, damn these mf's are old. Now I am one of those people. Geesh
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Alright, I’ll fill in the reasoning later, but my choices are:
Users:
ILikePie
Lunatic
Savant
Debates:
Might decide to swap one of these out for Free Will is an Illusion, tough leaving that one out, but all 3 of these are great debates worthy of attention.
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@Lunatic
Alright, that makes a good deal more sense, particularly on the second role, and I understand the balance better as well.
About to board my flight. Appreciate the response.
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@ILikePie5
@WyIted
Still would prefer to get both your claims before the end of the DP.
As for strategies with the Sensor and Vote Oracle, I’m open to suggestions like this.
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@ILikePie5
@Casey_Risk
As Casey already suggested, it checks how many scum votes are on a given wagon.
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In terms of alternatives, it comes down to Casey (the Vote Thief claim stands out, though Casey’s come off behaviorally well), Bullish (the degrading Popular role is odd, hard to read it and hard to read him given his lack of knowledge on the theme), and Savant (might be using that role claim as a reason he survives votes/NK, though I actually like his statistics, even if they run null for me behaviorally).
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I’d still like to see Pie full claim since he suggested this and he’s hinted at his role already, and WyIted at this point since he’s still on the table.
Regardless, I don’t have a lot of time to write out my reads at this point, but despite some uncertainty on Savant’s role, I think we have the least to lose by lynching Owen. If he’s actually the Tree Stump, he’ll still have both a vote (through the mechanics of the game) and the ability to speak through next DP. His lack of activity so far also makes him a stand-out, especially since we’ll need people to be on top of the individual matches next DP. So my vote will stay where it is.
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@ILikePie5
We all should just full claim at this point. Put all the cards on the table
I still don’t love this, but given the number of claims already on the table and the proximity to the end of the DP, I can at least understand why.
I’m the Sensor. That’s why I said earlier that I had further reason to believe Earth’s role because the information he gains dovetails well with mine given the secret ballot. I’d like to align my use with his if possible, but I also don’t want to tip off scum on the when of it.
As for the justification, there’s a focus on how it’s meant to ensure fairness in the basic rules of the debate and in particular on education, a common voter on theory arguments.
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Just so everyone's aware, I'll be on a flight much of the evening, so I'll be offline by the time the DP is scheduled to end.
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@Owen_T
I'm good with seeking a claim from Owen at this point. I don't love defaulting to a lack of activity, but if we're going to get more claims, more inactive players should be prioritized in the absence of scum reads.
VTL Owen
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@Lunatic
Okay im just gonna full claim.
I'll need to walk away and re-read this a couple of times because I'm having a bit of trouble understanding some of these roles. They seem rather complicated. I buy that this is your role, largely since it's just incredibly complex and comes with several roles that appear confirmable.
I do have some questions now, though.
So you will be informed that your first role failed if you use it on scum and it won't afford them extra votes, correct?
If I'm reading the second one right, it means you can stop an elimination, which effectively means you have the ability to change the number calculus that underpins the entire game. For example, if you can prevent an elimination DP2, wouldn't that leave us with 5 players going into NP3? That's part of the reason I assumed there would be no protective roles, but reversing an elimination effectively does the same thing in this case.
Also, can you use multiple roles in a single NP?
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@ILikePie5
@Savant
I don't have a good pick. I'd like to see more from Savant, since he hasn't posted in a while.
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@ILikePie5
I’m borderline thinking we should all just mass claim, but I’ll hold off on that at this moment. I’m generally uncomfortable with the idea of a mass claim to start with
I'm uncomfortable with it as well, since it might neuter town's ability to act without manipulation during the NP. There's value in getting that information now, but I don't think it's worth the loss of role utility.
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@Earth
I am the 2x vote revealer. At any point during the day or night, I can choose a match and receive the vote for that match. The justification is that the ballot contains the reason for decision along with a tally of the vote for that debate.
Interesting. It's odd that the ballot isn't revealed publicly, since that would fit the role better, but I guess that would make this game-breaking since it would publicly reveal a potential scum block. This makes a lot of sense to have in the game from Austin's perspective since it makes each vote a gamble for scum, particularly if they decide to align with one another.
Anyway, I townread this as well. Particularly given my role, I have good reason to believe that one like yours would exist.
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@WyIted
There is a movie called "poor white trash" with Jamie Presley that me and my gang would watch every other day. Also office space for some reason. They would watch kids which I hated so I made myself scarce during that stupid movie. I think it's only enjoyable when you are high and I never got high .
Never watched Poor White Trash, but I'll have to add it to the list. I'm a fan of Office Space.
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@Casey_Risk
For me and my family, the movie we can all practically recite from memory is Hoodwinked. If you haven't heard of it, it's an indie animated movie from the mid-00s. The animation itself is pretty bad even for the time it was made, but if you can get past that, the writing is great.
I'm only familiar with that one in the abstract, but I love to hear about the niche movies families glom onto and quote endlessly. Finding good writing in the strangest of places is always great, too.
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@Casey_Risk
I've actually only seen the movie one time, though my family (and my dad in particular) was always quoting it. I found the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch bit in particular to be quite memorable. The whole "thou shalt not wait two seconds, thou shalt not wait four seconds" stuck with me just because there are genuinely so many passages in the old testament that are actually written just like that. And then the line "five is right out"... Perfect comedic timing.
I've seen it over a dozen times and it's become a badge of honor for my family to basically be able to quote the whole thing from memory. Personally most fond of the Peasant Dennis scene just because that conversation is so ridiculous and goes on for so long that it just gets me every time. The Holy Hand Grenade is a close second.
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@Casey_Risk
I'm inclined to agree with this. Three scum seems like the natural balance for this particular setup. Five scum is right out.
Hey, another Holy Grail fan. Come, we will feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large chulapas!
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@ILikePie5
Ok so how many scum do we think there are?
Mentioned this back here, but I agree with WyIted, there are likely 3 based on what I expect would be the balance Austin would want to strike. It's kind of a Holy Hand Grenade situation where two is too few (risks a very early loss for scum) and four is too much (places scum in too powerful of a position to control the vote).
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@WyIted
Sorry that environmental factors made you that way. I support your right to get married.
A little over 12 years late to be blessing my marriage, but better late than never. Thank you good sir.
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As for where to go from here, that's harder to say. Just having all these claims on the table tells us a good deal, but not what the split is, especially if scum are faking their claims. There are some outliers here based on what is generally used across all styles of debate and what is used in a subset, there are some that have specific structure that are used consistently and others that are looser. Figuring out the theme split is going to be hard without flips.
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@Bullish
I don't know what half these words mean, I thought I was similar to weighing cause we both end in "-ing"
Weighing can be used tactically. It's not necessarily something that is a part of an argument, but there's a certain amount of expectation that debaters include some weighing analysis, whereas spreading is more of a tactic used in speed debating styles like Policy.
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I'm just going to break these up into categories:
Basic elements of an argument:
Pie - Framework
Vader - Solvency
Lunatic - Weighing
Solvency stands out a bit from the other two in terms of being more of an "on-case" element, whereas framework and weighing discussions can come from either side. I don't think that makes much of a difference, though, as all of these are pretty fundamental and if you're talking about counterplans, solvency still matters.
Built-in parts of a debate round:
Savant - Disclosure
Owen - CrossEx
Earth - Ballot
I don't have a lot of experience with Policy or LD, so I haven't had to do it before, but Disclosure is just giving your evidence to your opponent. There is some theory regarding whether debaters should just disclose their cases full stop, though I don't know much about that and I don't think this is what's being covered here. Cross Examination is just the process of asking questions, though different types of debate call it different things. The Ballot is a given since judges have to pick someone to award the win. That last one is more of an outlier because it's also the only claimed character that comes specifically from the judge.
Types of Technical Arguments
Whiteflame - Theory
Casey - Kritiks
Wylted - Topicality
It would take a while to go through how all these work, but they're all on the same wavelength. They challenge something fundamental to the debate (the philosophical underpinnings, the rules, or how the topic is defined) and they all get very technical. Theory encompasses a broader set of arguments, but they all are trying to do the same thing.
Tactic:
Bullish - Spreading
This is really more about how you engage in debate rather than some element of it. Many of the above could be used tactically, but this is the only role that is solely a tactic. I could see putting this with CrossEx as a way to get in more arguments, but that's a stretch.
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@WyIted
Just from what I noticed of whiteflame scum play. He is entirely too honest as scum so regardless of affiliation he would probably be foolish enough to be honest about his thoughts on theme split either way, so we can likely trust them
Honestly, I kind of love that as your perception of my scum meta, whether true or not. It does feel very me, or at least how I present myself. I'll type up my thoughts on the theme, hold on a bit.
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@Savant
I guess there's always that risk, though whether town players are alive or dead, they should recognize the need to align town votes for their own benefit. Being dead this game doesn't give you a reason to tap out and ignore the DP thread.
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@Savant
My biggest concern is with dead townies not being aligned. Maybe we all agree that dead town will vote along with majority of living players?
Where does it say that dead townies aren't aligned? Don't they still win with town?
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As for how to manage this game, I think there are some important elements we need to keep in mind.
First of all, the lack of flips is going to make things difficult, since it means we can't track how many scum are likely left in the game between votes. The game is set up in such a way that eliminating town members is almost a given, since I don't think we have more than three scum and there will be four eliminations in DP2 alone. So, we're going to be heavily reliant on whatever investigative data we can get while players are alive, though we don't know how much scum have to manipulate those results.
Second, the private vote submissions could complicate things. Aside from today where votes to eliminate and nominate will be public, future DPs will only have private votes cast by every player. Scum members will vote as a bloc and there won't be a way to determine that they're doing that after this DP. As such, I think town needs to be mostly aligned this game on elimination choices, especially since scum apparently get to pick in the event of a tie, something that could very well happen with an even number of players voting. At the very least, everyone should avoid submitting early votes unless there's widespread agreement, since apparently you cannot change a vote after it has been submitted.
As for who to nominate this DP, I'm liking both Vader's behavior and his role claim (Solvency seems like a no-brainer in a Debate Mafia game and would be a very ballsy fake claim, and I like the method he has planned to verify it since I have a hard time believing scum somehow have a way to manipulate a role like this), so he would be my choice for a nomination atm.
VTN (Vote to Nominate) Vader
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@WyIted
So does nominate do the same thing as lynch?Somebody is going to have to pretend I am a complete retard and really break this down one rule at a time for me. I guess I can have chat GPT attempt to do it but it's not good with logic
I decided to try and summarize the info Austin gave us in that first PM and he verified that it was accurate, so I'll just paste that and hope it helps:
There will be a “normal” VTL on Day 1 with a nomination for effective immunity on day 2.
On day 2, all players will be bracketed and head-to-head eliminations by secret ballot will occur in 24 hour periods. These will occur back-to-back.
Night 2 will be the only one to include an NK that will succeed.
Subsequent days will go off with smaller and smaller brackets (4 1v1 matchups -> 2 1v1 matchups -> final matchup).
There is no parity, though if only town or only scum are left at a certain point, it's game over.
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Anyway, I'm tired and these are just thoughts I'm transcribing from my PMs with Austin when I was asking questions about the setup. I'm going to leave off here and pick this up again tomorrow.
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