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@Greyparrot
I just don't like the part where you inserted yourself to Barney's defense unabated.
So you don't like that I actively considered his history as a scum player, which contradicted your presentation of it? Based on his role claim and his lack of confirmation of said role, I can see reasons to scumread him, but I'm not just going to take a statement like "he always does this as scum" as gospel. I don't think it's scummy to investigate your claims of his prior behavior as scum and find them wanting, but I guess you disagree.
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Also, worth noting that JoeBob's flip includes this role:
phantom upon death haunts a town role dictating how their ability is used.
Keep that in mind when we consider night actions. FYI, I did not receive notification that I had absorbed something NP2 for use in NP3.
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@Greyparrot
WF might be my top read today.
Scumread, I'm guessing?
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Alright, so... no NK. Either scum waived it or it was prevented. I'm still sussing Luna, but he's the only claimed protective role in play that could have prevented the NK, so I'm going to reconsider my reads.
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@Savant
Doesn't matter. If we lynch town we're dead since we're at LYLO.
Fair enough, though my point was that I feel they’re both scum, so if it’s mainly a matter of giving either of them an opportunity to prove themselves and/or do something beneficial for town before they get lynched, I can only see that coming from Luna.
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@Lunatic
im fine with joebob or whiteflame this day phase, idk maybe I can get my role off tonight and convince you guys im town, but ill likely be blocked.VTL joebob
I don't love that you posted this vote already, but if it comes down to you or JoeBob, at least we know that his role claim is net negative to town. As far as I'm concerned, both of you are givens for lynches between this DP and next, and if we're choosing order, I'm fine with JoeBob being first.
That being said, I'm leaving that order up to those who aren't in POE at this point.
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@Barney
We can officially confirm WF is scum:Apologies for not being very active this DP. Gave blood earlier for the first time in a while and I just haven't had much energy to post since.He doesn't GIVE blood, he TAKES it!🤣🤣🤣
How long have you known that I'm a vam- I mean, phlebotomist? Yes, definitely that second thing, certainly no neck-biting going on here. Why would someone even mention biting a neck? It just sounds... so absurd, doesn't it? And that dark red color and metallic flavor certainly doesn't seem appetizing... no... not at all...
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@ILikePie5
Ignore that, I can’t read clearly
Wouldn't be a first for me, either. I will volunteer that I don't have any brackets in my PM.
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Apologies for not being very active this DP. Gave blood earlier for the first time in a while and I just haven't had much energy to post since.
What has become pretty clear over the course of the DP hasn't actually changed my reads much, it's just cemented them. Pie as already solid town. Mharman was close to it and, with his role claim and result from NP2, I'd say it's pretty clear he's town.
GP's pretty much in the same place he was last DP. I buy that he's town mainly because of this whole role swap thing. If this is a gambit, more power to him, but I just don't buy him pulling this off.
Out of the remaining four, JoeBob and Luna are the clearest scum, as they were last DP. I'll give the edge to Luna here as scummier given the result from Mharman, even if the Apportioner claim looked better than JoeBob's Vital Coward. Both of them have been very low effort all game, I'm fine with lynching them in either order.
I'm less sure between Austin and Barney. Austin's role was at least confirmed to be what it is, but it's still null alignment-wise. Barney apparently hasn't been able to use his role, but even if he does Neighborize someone, it's not automatic that he's town - we've been down the scum Mason route before. They've both had pretty good reads, though if I had to pick, I'd say Barney's slightly less scummy based on the reads and effort he's been putting in this game, which don't match his recent scum games. Austin can be a little more variable.
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@Mharman
Yeah, that seems pretty clear. At minimum, that in no way matches what he said his claim was or who he targeted, so Luna’s scum unless you’re playing us in a very specific and complex fashion. I’m good with Luna being the lynch.
I’ll post a set of reads later, but with regards to my claim, I wouldn’t be surprised if people are scumreading it. I don’t get why GP is, specifically, but it’s unconfirmed and weird. Wouldn’t say it’s the only one like that in this game, but I’d sus it too.
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@ILikePie5
I’m talking about essay that you got. Like which Bible verse, etc
Ah, I didn't get that.
The bible verse was Genesis 33 with a focus on how Jacob wronged his brother and then tried to act contrite. The rest is mostly just an essay along the lines of what I already mentioned.
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@ILikePie5
Okay, let’s hear it
...I'm not sure I'm understanding. I've already given you my restated version of it.
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@Mharman
Also, I’m shocked but I have permission to copy paste the story Wylted gave me.
Not sure if you're waiting on Austin to post, but given that you're able to post it in full, you definitely should.
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@Lunatic
My character is The 120 year life cap (dealing with the theory about god designing humans to have long life spans due to an interpretation of genesis 6:3) and my role is Apportioner. I can target a player and extend their life by one day/night phase cycle. I have targeted pie both night phases. NP1 because I was fairly confident in my town read on him plus he kept dying np1 in every game recently and I felt bad and remembered him saying doctors never protect him. And np2 I targeted him because he was essentially confirmed town after the Casey exchanges dp1 and him confirming having Casey’s role PM.My role is unlimited which I thought was pretty powerful, but it’s also another reason why I didn’t doubt two killing roles in the balance.
This makes some sense of your earlier reads, though it also means you're not role confirmed. Were you role blocked either NP?
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@ILikePie5
Same question as Barney, can you state exactly what your character, role and justification are?
Pretty sure I just covered it, but I'll keep it to these three points:
Character: Victim complex
Role: Absorber
Justification: Essentially, the way they see themselves leads to more actions against them
The justification isn't directly stated, it's implied by a couple of sentences of the essay he sent and it has a weak application to Absorber.
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@Barney
I believe we should lynch JoeBob, but we need to be very careful on any votes in case Savant is correct that there are 4 scum remaining.
Probably best to assume there are four scum regardless, but given that Savant is almost certainly town due to his sudden revival (I have a hard time believing WyIted would make a role where a scum player could come back), we have all the more reason to believe it.
And yes, my preference at the moment is also JoeBob.
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Alright, I'll claim:
My character comes with an essay citing a bible verse, which builds into a theory about Israel's actions over time and how it ties in with the role models who get the most attention in the Bible, particularly Jacob. It has led many to view themselves as put upon.
As such, my character is Victim Complex, and my role is Absorber. I had a lot of questions about the specifics of it, particularly as the game went on, so here's the deal:
If I get targeted by a non-killing night action, I absorb it and can use it the following NP. I am not informed that I've absorbed a role, so if I was targeted by a night action on NP1, I would only have had that confirmed at the start of NP2. The role still works on me, so if I had received a cookie, I could have taken it and then given out a cookie of my own the next NP.
For the record, I was not informed during NP2 that I had absorbed a role NP1.
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@Owen_T
So you guys still want me giving reads?
I'd like to see them, and it seems I'm not alone in that view.
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@ILikePie5
JoeBob should hammer. He’s my next scummy person
This makes sense if we're concerned about her having a role that activates and targets the hammerer, which seems to be the basis for this hesitancy. If we decide to go through with the lynch on Banana, then yes, JoeBob seems like the best choice to step on that landmine.
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@ILikePie5
Why are you not sold on Banana?
Frankly, it's just about how all this has rolled out. I've played with Banana as scum and this just feels different. Maybe she's changed since then, but I don't think she'd be this cagey about her role as scum, not with the alternative being her lynch. I agree with you that her role isn't useless just because it's known (I think she wanted to surprise scum with it), but that just makes it all the more puzzling that she'd hold back on the claim. It comes off as a move borne out of frustration rather than an effort to cover for something as scum.
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@Greyparrot
@Barney
Looking back through Barney's last few games as scum:
He got subbed out for Paper Mario due to lack of activity, don't see many reads there. He was scum that game and low effort in his reads the one time he posted them.
In US Presidential Elections, Barney was also scum and also low effort. Got found out early and didn't post reads.
In Villainous Villains, also low effort. I don't see any reads at all.
By contrast, I've seen a lot more of these narrative reads in his more recent games as town. Maybe I didn't go back far enough to see what you're talking about, but I'm having trouble seeing your case.
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@Greyparrot
Oh yeah, when he goes into "narrative mode" with his reads and clips, historically he flipped scum.
It's been a while since he's played. I'll check back through some old games and see if this holds up.
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@Vader
So it's clear that Barney wants me to get my role again in the NP. I don't think that is what town really wants at this point and tbh, I think I kind of FoS that. Sure I probably hit scum last DP, but the guarantee I hit scum again is pretty low. The balance of 3P makes the game some weird variant of potentially a 9v3v1v1 and that may not even be the case, in fact I have no clueRight now the assumption (unless anyone claims anything different) the game is 8v2v1 OR 7v3v1 depending on what you think Savant is. The odds of hitting scum are still relatively low from what I am seeing
From where I'm sitting, I at least trust you to make the call. You've got a lot of reads to work with already and might have more by the end of the DP, but I understand the cautious approach as well.
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@WyIted
I also literally self identified as trans because I have that option at work and so DEI promotion is on the table if the die promotion fails.As a transgender I get surveys to fill out in my email so the company can also better accommodate me, so I get to speak on behalf of the trans community
Amen brother (sister?).
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@Barney
@Vader
I'm in favor of activating Vader's powers (him doing nothing tonight would prove less than if he does something), so let's get a couple people on his wagon. Afterward we can all unvote.
Looks like we're at two votes. I'm fine giving him the shot.
VTL Vader
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@iamanabanana
Vader is soooo scummy it hurts
Banana, you've called out Vader as scummy multiple times and I'd really like to understand the thinking here. Do you think he's lying about his role, or that scum have been given a role that grants them a potential shot every NP? I agree that his role makes the balance in this game wonky, but I can't see a world in which WyIted gives scum this kind of role.
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@Greyparrot
we should kill barney
Setting aside my own read on his behavior, I'd like to know where this is coming from. Is it just frustration with his behavior this DP or are you actively scumreading him?
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@Mharman
Last thing: Yes, you should tell everything. You will get lynched without doing so, like it or not. You are obviously town to yourself, but to the rest of town. Including me. I will say that I am torn between you and Vader and will have a better idea in the morning. I suppose I should think whether or not it’s a false dichotomy, but it’s gonna be hard to do so if one of you has given me a reason for a scumread. Something like refusing to full claim would be an example.
Much as I do understand the pushback against two killing roles being in the game, at least to some degree, I don't really understand what would make this a tough decision if that's where you're coming from. I'm not sold on the Banana lynch myself, but I don't see a world in which Vader is scum here. So much of what he's done would have to be carefully planted ahead of time and executed in a very particular way. Couple that with the notion that scum would get an extra NK that activates on voting and I just don't buy it. At least Banana's Town Insurgent claim is a one-off that activates on death, and we've seen plenty of scum bombs that function in a similar capacity. Hell, been one myself.
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@WyIted
My boss is frail and elderly so off chance he dies and I get a promotion opportunity.That's what boomers get for refusing to retire and leaving us with all the shitty jobs
Weaponizing your illness to get a promotion? I see no problems here.
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@Mharman
Does Earth hand out cookies to others in purgatory?Correct me if I’m wrong… But is it not possible for Earth to hand out cookies to living players from purgatory?
That's a good question and one to which I have no answer. If Earth can interact with others outside of Purgatory, that changes things, since anyone living could be receiving a cookie from either Owen or Earth. And I guess if Savant received a cookie before being Vig'd by Vader, that could explain his absence from Purgatory.
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@Mharman
Oh yup. That confirms it… which means we can’t really be certain Vader shot correctly based on Savant being in hell. But then why would Savant accept such a cookie? Perhaps there is some reward for doing so.
I'm not really sure I get the cookies or how they relate with Purgatory. Earth couldn't have handed one out before he died (the timing lines up pretty closely with his death in DP1), so he would have somehow had to grant them in Purgatory... except Savant never made it to Purgatory, so I don't know how he could have received it. His absence from Purgatory suggests something separate. That seems related to the demon aspect, his potentially being scum, or both. Maybe I'm missing some other element, not sure if the hidden flip is just a delayed appearance that would be followed by his entering Purgatory.
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@ILikePie5
@Owen_T
Where did you see the part where she thought Earth was still around?
I apparently mixed up my sources. It was Owen who said this:
I can't disclose much information, but I have reason to believe Earth isn't actually completely out of the game. I think you might still have influence over the game once you go to heaven/hell.
And now that I see it again... yeah, I think I misunderstood it. Rereading it places it in the context of the Purgatory thread and whatever's going on with heaven and hell. Is that what you meant by Earth not being out of the game, Owen?
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@Owen_T
I did give the cookie to banana.
That's one mystery solved. She was saying something about believing Earth was still around. Unless he's doing something squirrely in Purgatory, it's at least clear that you have the Cookie Giver role, though that still leaves questions about why his role says "Removed" in the OP.
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@Owen_T
I've decided to come clean - My vanilla thing was totally a fake claim. I'm the counter part to the Evil Cookie Giver. I'm the Good Cookie Giver. My essay is about the necessity of attempting to do good in an evil world.I win if I can distribute five cookies. I go to hell if I distribute less than three. I can also win by surviving.If you eat a good cookie, you go to heaven, and vice versa. If you reject a good cookie, the angels who ate the cookies have vendetta of sorts on the ones who rejected.
Alright then, that's different. Based on her responses, it looks as though you tried to give a cookie to Banana, is that accurate? Why did you go with the fake claim?
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Catching up. Please let me know if I missed something, but I'm going to try to cover all the recent revelations.
Looks like JoeBob fullclaimed. Given how many people have an FoS on him or just straight up have him in their scum pools as well as the nature of his claim, I guess I can understand why he'd claim without much direct pressure. The claim itself is... odd. Can't say I've ever heard of the "Vital Coward" role and it didn't come up on Mafia Universe, but then most of the claims so far haven't, certainly haven't seen a Crab God on there. The tie to "frozen jesus" is even stranger, though given what I've seen from WyIted so far with the flips, claims and my own PM, I'd say any attempt to understand the basis for selecting the characters that we've been given is going to be fraught. The claim doesn't shift my perception of JoeBob much, but at minimum, I can see this kind of weird negative utility getting added to the game to amp up confusion.
Pie makes some fair points regarding why he views the claim as SOP (the random redirect would be a pain to piece together, though he wouldn't have known last DP about Vader's Vig), but I don't see why a scum JoeBob would have a role that essentially grants them an auto-redirect of the Vig shot if it's used on them.
And it appears GP has lost his divinity, replaced with an already used Role Swap. Odd choice for scum to take a role with no idea of what it even does. If Savant was the one who did it, I'd be surprised because that character, Israel's suspicious activity during 9-11, and the journal entry don't really suggest anything like a Bio-Engineer. It would be a stretch, so that suggests someone else did it. Regardless, I don't see what value there is in GP faking this, so I'm townreading him.
In response to Pie, no. I was not responsible for this. I'm afraid Crustacean Mt. Olympus will forever be closed to the likes of me. Doesn't help that it's not kosher.
Good point about Purgatory. I hadn't even noticed the separate thread, but it does look as though Savant is absent from it. Given Earth's and Casey's presences in Purgatory and Savant's absence, it at least suggests something distinct with Savant, and given that that's a TP and town in Purgatory, that suggests Savant's scum. Not sure what to make of the demon aspect, but it might confirm that. Odd that they're not able to specify whether they received a cookie, maybe that explains some of Banana's earlier words about rejecting someone?
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Alright, having read through the DP and seen the posts so far, I'll go ahead and give my reads before I eat lunch and I'll keep this in order of town --> scumreads.
Vader - from starting this game with his post about getting three votes to confirm himself to actually doing so with his Vig on Savant (I can only conclude that Savant was unflippable either as scum or as a TP), I have nothing but reasons to townread Vader. The only oddity in Vader's claim is that he has multiple shots with this. It does seem a little imbalanced, but I can't fathom how that balance improves if somehow scum have a Vig on top of their NK that activates at three votes. If he was scum, it would also mean that he shot someone who could very well be his own scum partner. The amount of hoops I'd have to jump through to make this make sense is just too much, so he's solid town.
Pie - I was already leaning towards town for him behaviorally last DP, but the Casey flip cemented this read. Pie says he received Casey's full role PM and, from his interactions with Casey last DP, that appears to check out. While revealing this by the end of the DP would have made it clearer, the signs were all there in their interactions. I can't imagine how that would happen if Pie were scum without a generous dose of bastard modding. Giving scum access to information about town is one thing, but this amount of specificity would be ridiculous.
Mharman - From here on down, it's mostly about behavior and Mharman's argument with Pie last DP just looks too town vs. town for me to think much else. I just don't buy that this was a scum Mharman arguing with a town Pie, particularly given all the hints Pie was giving about having information and Casey's responses. I also think that scum Mharman wouldn't put himself in a position to be sussed based on his persistent scumread of Pie last DP knowing that he's town.
Owen - I still have a light townread on Owen. I want to see more involvement from him this DP, but his push on Pie last DP came off as townie and the Transgender claim just looks too much like what I'd expect from WyIted for me to dismiss it as null. His last post leaves me with more questions than answers - it's still unclear (apparently to him as well) when/if he'll get a role and he also seems to have information about Earth that he "can't disclose". I'm not sure what he's getting at with players having an influence after death, though clearly something wonky is going on with the role reveals.
Barney - This is more of a gut townread than anything based on his posted reads from last DP and his analysis of Vader's role. I don't think he'd dig into the thematic likelihood of Vader's role being what it is if he was scum. Also, have to give him some credit for calling me out as an evil time traveling wizard. He caught me, and I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for that meddling purple dinosaur!
Austin - Not a lot to work with last DP due to his absence, but he's stepping up this DP. His reads are decent, I appreciate that he's referencing back to Banana's previous play and engaging with Banana directly regarding her read on Vader, since she CC'd him. It's a good way to go, but he's coming off as null to me.
GP - His sheeping Pie in DP1 is null, his decision to claim early is null, and most of his behavior comes off similarly regardless of the game. The Crab God claim is an unknown, and at the very least, I don't suspect GP would give a black box for a fake claim, so this likely is his actual role. He did say that "there should be a player alive today that can confirm my role" and has hinted at knowledge of at least one scum, but since he hasn't clarified what he meant by that, he's null to me.
Banana - The main thing keeping Banana at this position is the way she started out this game with that 14 post business. I still don't believe that scum would look at their Discord, see a set of posts about their role, come back on here and post about the number of PMs they received. I guess it wouldn't be a first for someone to receive their scum role via PM as well as scum chat, but that's still a surprising choice. Apart from that, though, there's a lot I don't like about her behavior this DP. I can't assess the basis for the CC without seeing her role and she's been very negative on the prospect of giving it out. If she is implying a bomb, she hasn't been clear why she views that as a CC beyond seeing two killing roles in a very large game. I don't so much sus the lack of cooperation as I do her attempts to draw attention to the most town confirmed player chiefly on the basis of a view of balance that doesn't necessarily hold up. I'd like to get a clear set of reads from her as well.
lunatic - I keep switching Banana and Luna around, but for now, Luna's here. There's just a lot about the timing of his posts and the way he sat back from the debate over Banana between Pie and Mharman last DP, especially after taking such a strong stance, that I did not like. Though he does keep fluffing my ego, I can't say his decision to just leave off Banana's wagon after she posted one response and then jumping back onto it this DP on the basis that she lied about a justification. It's not much of one, but she did give what she has. I understand the basis for hopping on and off of her lynch, but the basis for doing so seemed half-baked.
Joebob - This might change when he gets on and posts more fully, but JoeBob has been pretty dead weight the whole game. A lack of reads so far combined with a largely peripheral examination of what's gone on throughout doesn't help his case. I'm generally against pushing on players due to a lack of involvement, and if it was just about limited posting, I probably wouldn't mention it. But there's too much fluff posting and, as of yet anyway, no insight into the events of NP1.
For now at least, I can see a decent case against any one of the people in my bottom 3, though I prefer JoeBob as the lynch right now.
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@Mharman
oh you know what? It's not even that Pie knew of Casey's role- it's that he knew such a role belonged to Casey. Yeah, he really is town.
Yeah, exactly. It's a lot of very specific information about another player.
Anyway, really am off for the night, will pick this up tomorrow.
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Anyway, this DP started late and I need to get to bed, just couldn't leave it without looking at the OP and puzzling through what's come up so far.
I'll say that given Casey's flip, I'm townreading Pie. Casey was clearly picking up on the hints that he knew something about their role for a good deal of the last DP. I can't say whether this came as a result of Pie being some different variation of an Informed role or something, but I can't imagine scum being given access to that kind of information. That would just be grossly unfair.
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Alright, so a lot to unpack from this NP.
We had two NKs, with Vader speaking up for one of them (Savant). Casey's death is unclear but, assuming we buy Vader's claim, Casey was the target of the scum NK. That's the easy part.
The hard parts are the other two flips.
Savant flipped with a hidden role and, according to WyIted, a hidden affiliation as well. Interesting that he specified that. Maybe he was some TP role and was flip-less? If Casey was the target of the scum NK, it doesn't make sense that they'd use a Janitor on a separate target, so that wouldn't explain it.
Earth, meanwhile, flipped "role- Removed" with an affiliation and character. I have no clue how to take this one. Can someone remove a role from a dead player and use it? It's not something I'm familiar with and, based on Earth's claim, it's not something anyone would want to do.
So... yeah, pretty baffled by all this.
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@Barney
@WyIted
Could we get a vote count please?
I see 6 votes including mine, but I would like that confirmed as well.
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I don't love the Earth lynch, mainly because it's low-hanging fruit, but I don't see what good keeping him around can do and he could be hiding aspects of his role. He hasn't indicated that the cookies he gives out are useful in any way, so no one has incentive to take them. The way Earth has described it, the role seems like it's built to fail, since keeping his role would have made people uncertain whether to take the cookie in the first place, and revealing it just puts him in the crosshairs as the claimed TP. All he can do is confirm himself, and with his TP affiliation already out in the open as well as his role, that doesn't add any value.
At the very least, I don't see what we have to lose by lynching him and we can take a wildcard off the board. So that's where I'm going.
VTL Earth
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By the by, I did go back through a lot of the DP. I don't have many thoughts to add to my last reads post from yesterday, but I do have a few points:
The detail in Barney's reads is welcome, glad to see he stepped in to give his thoughts. Can't say it shifts him out of null for me, but at least I have a good idea of where he's coming from now.
Didn't say anything on Owen's role, but while I still behaviorally townread him, the claim itself is null. The role makes some sense given the character, but we don't know how long it will take to validate the change to a PR and I could easily see a scum team throwing this kind of claim together.
As for Pie and Mharman, reading back through their extended argument almost brought back that headache and didn't resolve much. This still feels very town vs. town and their frustration throughout makes me want to turn these into a townlean for each. They're both very slight townleans as a result, though I'm very wary of townreading either of them early since I have a hard time picking out their tells, specifically. In particular, I've seen Pie get pretty frustrated like this as both town and scum, so I'm going to hold off on a stronger read.
Not much else has changed, at least among the less active players. Still not a lot from JoeBob to read. Austin looks like he's been trying to catch up. Banana's been sporadic, but she's one of my stronger townreads anyway. Savant's upped his participation but hasn't really shifted for me given his (admittedly warranted) recent focus on Earth, even if I do largely agree with his reads. Luna's in a similar boat. I don't like that the whole argument over Banana got drawn out as long as it did, but that seemed more a function of Pie and Mharman's argument than Luna's and he relented the moment she hopped on and said her piece.
Anyone else hasn't shifted from my last read. Still townreading Casey and Vader. Nothing to add on the Almighty Crustacean.
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@Savant
I can see good reason to lynch him, mainly based on just how he described it and what elements he left out, which may speak to there being more to his role than he's letting on. I'm in no rush to see this lynch through given the extra day, though, so I'm going to seek answers for now.
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@Earth
Meant to tag you on the above. Can you fill in some of these gaps?
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Well, apparently a good deal happened when I stepped away for a couple of hours to teach my debate class. I figured curve balls were a given in this game and particularly with 14 players, having a TP makes sense, but wtf even is an Evil Cookie Giver? And he has to give out 5 cookies to win? Do people even have to take the cookie (he said there's a choice) for him to achieve his wincon? And doesn't that mean he'd have to somehow get to DP6 to succeed?
Even assuming he can joint win, this is such a strange role he's spelled out.
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Doing significantly better some sleep and time away from the screen. I'll be spending much of the day working back through the DP to inform my reads.
Couple of notes:
WyIted did already mention when the DP would end: Tuesday, 6:30 PM EST. That sets us at just under 28 hours remaining in the DP.
Also, though I don't think there's much to update since Barney's original list, I'll add where I can:
1. Savant
2. Greyparrot. carcinization Crab God
3. lunatic
4. Pie has information
5. Casey
6. Mharman
7. Vader ??? Confirmable w/ 3 votes (savant, Pie, Owen… Lunatic)
8. Earth
11. Joebob
12. Austin confirmable
13. Barney. Has crabs
14. Whiteflame
If I missed anything, feel free to update it.
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